Guild Wars 2

Death’s charge: This skill has a long “casting” time, which means that the Path of Corruption trait (converting 2 boons to condis; Curses) is applied at the end. This skill can be juked before it’s over, however (i.e., I can hit 3 times with Death’s Charge and then the rest miss), which negates the traited boon corruption. Make Path of Corruption corrupt 2 boons on the first hit, not the last.

style.6173:

Salamander.2504:

zapv.8051:

I’ve played pretty much every meta build in this game. I mostly run condition builds for fun in unranked because they suck and get hard countered by anyone smart at using cleanses (I miss terrormancer sooo much). I never get hard countered by diamond skin eles, shout warrs, or smart teams in teamfights when I play power builds. Listen, burn might do slightly too much damage (and it is slight), but most of the other conditions need buffs, and the aoe cleansing in this game makes most conditions irrelevant for anything over a 3vs3.

The only time I really die to burn builds is when I would have died faster to power builds. If a burn guard hits me with 10 stacks of burn, that translates to a mes/thief hitting me for like 10k burst in the same time frame I wasn’t paying attention or was without cds. While those 10 burns might hit for more over their duration, I or my team can remove them to take very little damage. You cannot say the same for power burst. Also, power burst works much better in a coordinated setup. I would much rather face two burn builds over two power builds because removing 20 burns and 10 burns requires the same amount of condi cleanse while avoiding/healing through 20k and 10k damage is vastly different.

TLDR: Condition builds have huge flaws and are only really succesful in 2vs2s or 1vs1s. Also, burning looks more OP then it is because bleeding, torment, confusion and poison are weak right now.

PS: OP is a whiner, been complaining every day since June 23rd instead of learning to counter burn builds.

Nailed it.

style.6173:

I still have not heard one valid argument for why condi cleanse should not clear the most damaging condi first.

Nor has anyone provided a valid argument for why it should.

Read my posts in this thread. Sigh. That’s why.

I can’t believe there are some people who actually think it is balanced right now.

I did read your posts. The first of them were “teaching” people to “learn to read”. The second part (the “valid argument”?) states that burn is OP because people apply cover conditions.

All of your posts were grossly condescending, but unfortunately none of them stated a detailed argument for your case. I’d like to hear it, because I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but you aren’t going to get a “valid argument” by bullying people into it.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Sunshine.5014:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Reaper sustain needs attention
Everything else feels balanced

• Scrapper sustain is too high.
• Berserker is a one trick pony with killshot
• Reaper/Chronomancer damage is way to high for its sustain.
• Tempest healing should be nerfed, and Tempest damage should be buffed. It’s a Tempest Overload, and it deals less damage than Warrior auto attacks. That’s very sad.

Can’t believe you just said everything is balanced :O

Dunno, I must have done 20 to 30 matches over the weekend and I was still killing 9/10 people in 1v1 situations while playing peel +1. The only thing that stood out to me as OP was Reaper sustain.

It’s not that the Reaper was hard to deal with. It’s DPS is in fact easy to dodge in a 1v1 situation. It’s that even a lazy subpar Reaper Bunker requires at least two DPSers to gut out of a point in a reasonable amount of time before his teammates respawn, run back and regroup to prevent you from capping a point. Good Reaper Bunkers I’ve seen tank out three guys long enough for their team to respawn and get back to a point to keep it neutral. So the problem here is that the Reaper Bunker requires more team resource to actually kill, to be able to take a point, than any other build in the game. This is disruptive to conquest dynamic.

So bad reaper bunkers can hold a point against 2 people, and good reaper bunkers can hold a point against 3 people?

How is this any different from current bunker specs?

zapv.8051:

I’ve played pretty much every meta build in this game. I mostly run condition builds for fun in unranked because they suck and get hard countered by anyone smart at using cleanses (I miss terrormancer sooo much). I never get hard countered by diamond skin eles, shout warrs, or smart teams in teamfights when I play power builds. Listen, burn might do slightly too much damage (and it is slight), but most of the other conditions need buffs, and the aoe cleansing in this game makes most conditions irrelevant for anything over a 3vs3.

The only time I really die to burn builds is when I would have died faster to power builds. If a burn guard hits me with 10 stacks of burn, that translates to a mes/thief hitting me for like 10k burst in the same time frame I wasn’t paying attention or was without cds. While those 10 burns might hit for more over their duration, I or my team can remove them to take very little damage. You cannot say the same for power burst. Also, power burst works much better in a coordinated setup. I would much rather face two burn builds over two power builds because removing 20 burns and 10 burns requires the same amount of condi cleanse while avoiding/healing through 20k and 10k damage is vastly different.

TLDR: Condition builds have huge flaws and are only really succesful in 2vs2s or 1vs1s. Also, burning looks more OP then it is because bleeding, torment, confusion and poison are weak right now.

PS: OP is a whiner, been complaining every day since June 23rd instead of learning to counter burn builds.

Nailed it.

style.6173:

I still have not heard one valid argument for why condi cleanse should not clear the most damaging condi first.

Nor has anyone provided a valid argument for why it should.

Ragnarox.9601:

No Pulse.2967:

brannigan.9831:

Dirame.8521:

Ragnarox.9601:

Never seen dragonhunter with hammer and traps, you just talk nonesense. I am playing 2 days in a row for over 200+ matches in pvp and seen 0 ZERO guardians with hammer (that applies to DH as well).
Maybe in theory that would work but in practice not.

I’ve seen few DH with traps, dodged their traps and killed them with ease with my DH.

Lol, you are obviously the only one playing this game and your opinion on what someone else has encountered is obviously fact. I mean, Arenanet clearly only sold 1 copy of the game, those 4,999,999 other people who bought the game don’t exist.

I didn’t see one dragonhunter trap in about 50 ranked matches over the weekend. And maybe a handful of people playing the elite including myself. Traps are crap.

Funny, because I’ve seen a 3-trap dragonhunter at least every 5th match. I was playing unranked, though….

I dont play unranked, because that is just testing ground, ranked are real deal and its DH empty. You can see lots of stuff in unranked, even spirit weapons or sigil guardians which have no place in ranked.

BWE3 is a testing ground. If Unranked is a “testing ground”, and it also has lower que times, it’s no mystery that more testing of elite specs occurred in unranked.

Try not to fall off your 5 story high-horse, geez.

Dead.5829:

Were you finding that held true for more than 1v1s? Every time I had a second person hitting me from out of range of my YAAW, and who hadn’t been hit for the weakeing from shroud, I dropped pretty fast. Rise does help quite a bit before the minions are killed though!

Yes I am referring to teamfights, which is where I tried to be 90% of the time. As for them being outside of the range of WS and YAAW, yeah that will definitely be a doozy no matter what. I spent most of BWE2 in Cele or Soldiers and all of BWE3 in Zerker/Marauder, and I found myself most comfortable in Marauder, despite the fact that I usually run on the tankier side when playing base necro.

I’m fully aware that this might change once HoT comes out and the meta settles, however. It’s hard to judge what will work and what won’t since people aren’t used to fighting with/against the new specs. Once people learn Reaper animations it’s possible that some of these amulets won’t cut it.

Dead.5829:

I tried a few variations on this during the weekend. I found that I pretty much had to run tanky as Reaper in order to stand up to… anything. Every time I went with a Marauder’s amulet, I just died. Even Valk felt a little weak on defense in some situations.

This made me come to 2 realizations:

I couldn’t let go of Blighter’s Boon.
I couldn’t use Soul Eater.

Decimate Defenses became almost necessary just to put out enough damage that I wasn’t ignored, since I wasn’t taking precision on amulets (and don’t get enough from Traveler’s runes). I could drop this for Chilling Victory just to be more sustainable alongside Blighter’s Boon, but I could never really get much out of Soul Eater.

Blighter’s Boon felt almost required to make up for dodgy (lolgetit?) Greatsword happenings. I really, really, really wanted to make Reaper’s Onslaught work with Transfusion, but I felt I was giving up too much sustain even when taking Blood Magic, and therefore not Spite, if I didn’t have BB (which should tell something about the self sustain in BM : / ).

The choice of Runes felt like a wash. Traveler’s let me actually move somewhere without taking Signet of the Locust (which I’m also having a hard time not taking), but I missed being able to cleanse with Soldier’s.

Soldier’s felt great, especially with the new Augury making for the most fun builds, but still being without a solid ranged weapon (axe wasn’t cutting it, lolgetitagain?) left me missing Relentless Pursuit here and there. It also felt slow unless I took SotL.

Based on my experience this weekend, Axe works with Marauder’s (4-6k axe 2), and you can be tanky and stay alive in Marauders—>Rise+YAAW+Weakening Shroud.

You can make Dhuumfire work with RS, but I personally find auto-attacking to be the least effective use of my time. Traits like Reaper’s Might and Dhuumfire reward RS/DS auto-attack so that it’s used even in cases where auto-attacking might not be the best course of action. I ditched them both because they were building bad habits D=

The new version (BWE3) is a huge improvement. Please do not revert.

<—Having tons of success without vital persistence. Using Unholy Martyr instead.

I found the GS and RS skills to be perfect. I’m absolutely loving the new Nightfall. A few suggestions below based on PvP Conquest all weekend:

Death’s charge: This skill has a long “casting” time, which means that the Path of Corruption trait (converting 2 boons to condis; Curses) is applied at the end. This skill can be juked before it’s over, however (i.e., I can hit 3 times with Death’s Charge and then the rest miss), which negates the traited boon corruption. Make Path of Corruption corrupt 2 boons on the first hit, not the last.
Suffer: Doesn’t really do much for taking up a whole utility slot: consider making it transfer 2 condi’s per target (instead of 1), or including a baseline of 2 condi’s removed (with no nearby targets needed), or reducing CD to 25 seconds.
Rise: Either make the minions faster, attack faster, or attack from range; right now even the running golem in HotM can kite them “by accident”. I was not getting any LF from their deaths, either. but this is probably intended.
Chilled to the Bone: Consider changing CD to 75 seconds.
Grasping Darkness: Some people have asked to give this ground targeting: I urge you with all of my life-force NOT to this this, it’s perfect as is.
Traits are perfect, with one exception: Soul Eater trait: The life steal on the Soul Eater trait feels undertuned. There isn’t enough reward for landing a gravedigger…Stealing ~100 health on GD is quite useless. What is the point of this? Getting the old siphon values back (GS hits steal ~50 health per hit) makes the trait worth taking. Right now this trait is just a dumbed-down version of the Guardian’s Zealous blade: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealous_Blade

Also, please let us see the cooldown’s of our utility skills in Shroud. This is even more important now with the low CD’s of the shouts: how are we supposed to intelligently use skills if their CD’s are a mystery half the time?

+1 to the OP, great idea.

Hunter.4783:

GS: Its actually bad for a burn build.

He can JI—>WW and insta—10-15k damage to a person/group. The burst potential with GS will always rank it high for a burn build, even if it lacks the sustained damage that sword offers.

Hunter.4783:

balthazar rues: Its simply better, 11k burn on every single purging flames application is superior to current guardian runes.

He’s running smoldering sigils to make up for the burn duration, which makes his focus (5) hit like a truck. Personally I run traveler runes with sigils of smoldering and the sigils really do make up for the Balth runes.

+1 to OP
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Option-to-disable-ground-targeting-please/first#post5198944

Saiyan.1704:

The guard wont be able to because his JI will be on CD.

Mesmer can peel away and roam elsewhere 10x more easily than a Guard. Not to mention that Portal of his from across the map is 3x better than JI.

1 teleporting skill does not mean Guardian’s are better mobile classes than Mesmer… that’s ridiculous.

Mesmer has phase retreat (600 range; 10s) and blink (1200 range; 24s), while Guardian has sword#2 (600 range; 8s) and JI (1200 range; 36s), which are on comparative cooldowns, respectively. Mesmer also has portal (5000 range, 60s), but many guards run GS, and GS#3 helps mobility a lot. If you average out the distance traveled/CD, mesmer is sitting at 193 m/s, while guard is at 148 m/s. Also keep in mind that quite a few condi mesmers run null field/signet of inspirations over blink.

Saiyan.1704:

We are the slowest class in the game right now. Even slower than Necros! Do not confuse Initial Engagement with +1 roaming abilities… even then, the Mesmer’s shatter 1 shot bursts has us beat!

Condi guard burst is stronger than a condi mesmer (note that the OP specified condi in this discussion).

As far as confusing initial engagement with +1 abilities, they go hand in hand…

Daharahj.1325:

I mean our elite spec IS called “Druid”, I don’t think Rangers want to have anything to do with firearms from a thematic standpoint.

Are we sure about that? Everyone thought engineer would get “forge”…Personally I was blindsided when I saw “scrapper”!

It seems counter-intuitive for a condi build to use a vamp rune. In any case, the vamp rune passive “annoyance” you describe is not a feature exclusive to condi engi and condi guard.

Both of these builds feel balanced to play and play against, in my experience (though I’ve never tried condi engi).

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

That seems kinda silly, I should be able to kill any class, and not be hard countered or pigeon-holed into zerkmeta… that’s really disappointing actually

There are less than a handful of builds across all classes which has a “fair” shot at downing a d/d ele 1v1. Worry not though:

Josh Davis.6015:

So, I can’t go into much detail on things quite yet, but I just wanted to reassure you folks that we’re actively discussing a number of issues that are affecting balance in PvP – including, but not limited to elementalist sustain/damage. Per the usual, we’ll be talking to you folks about the changes once we’ve finalized them.

Sorry I haven’t been that active on the forums lately – we’ve been pretty busy around the office.

“Thanks, Grouch. You’re the worst!”

Edit: Also, just because this is an elementalist thread doesn’t mean we’re only looking at elementalist, and it also doesn’t mean we’re only looking at doing nerfs.

Just a few thoughts on the build you posted, though, and why you might be having difficulty against ele’s:
1) Wrathful spirit is pretty meh against d/d ele’s, who rarely do fast attacks. Retal is good against ranger rapid fire or guard’s whirling wraith, but this trait has 0 mileage against eles.
2) Communal defenses is a great trait, but for obvious reasons will never help you win a 1v1.
3) Retributive armor is fine and all, but it won’t help you much against a d/d ele since so much of their damage comes from burning and will ignore your armor. You’re also using a barb amulet, which does nothing to give you toughness/ferocity to take advantage of the trait. I’m actually not too keen on this part either; even if you used a soldier amulet, you’d only increase your ferocity by 4.2%…
4) Sigil of water isn’t adding to your DPS.
5) Basically all of your utilities are team-support oriented. Although retreat can be used with shattered aegis for a burst, your ferocity is a bit low to make it really hurt. I think on a typical marauder setup shattered aegis crits for ~1.4K. You’re burst potential relies around GS#2 and mace #3, which isn’t optimized for bursting an ele since you’ve got a barbarian amulet. Bursting a d/d ele after they leave water is the best way to get them down, but that’s going to be difficult in your setup without JI and smite condition.

Your build is team-support oriented (which is perfectly fine), but it doesn’t really have the raw dps needed to take down a d/d ele (most builds don’t!). With the upcoming (but unknown) nerfs to d/d ele, your build might work better, but until then its going to be tough to kill them without switching to a marauder or carrion amulet (and even then its tough). The truth is that guardian excels against burst damage (blocks, blinds) but is weaker to sustained damage (low health pool), so I’ve never felt that guard vs. d/d ele was a good matchup for the guard.

Saiyan.1704:

Vapour.7348:

@OP – bud, Mesmer will always have the upper-hand in ANY 1v1 situations.

Doesn’t matter if they are direct damage or condi dealers.

Doesn’t matter if they are going against burn guard, survival ranger, ele…

Well survival ranger may be close one. I’m tellin’ ya, dem pets got smartuur or at least more useful

^ This

Condi mesmer doesn’t even need Generosity sigs to beat the condi Guard.

How the heck do guards make better +1 classes than mesmers?

GS#3, sword#2, JI —>GS#2
Their map mobility to get to a fight quickly can be insane, but it relies on them taking a target to use sword#2 and JI to get around. A burn guard can get across the map much faster than the mesmer (their tp skills require a target but have a very low CD) and then land a 14k burst using JI+GS#2, which is usually enough to down a pre-engaged target. The guard can then rotate elsewhere if needed using the same technique.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Salamander.2504:

Ragnarox.9601:

Awww you underpowerd d/d cele ele poor thing you ;( I wish I can buff you but I can’t.

He’s not asking for d/d cele ele buffs, he’s asking for more ele build diversity—ele’s are funneled into the d/d spec because everything else is much worse.

More build diversity=ele’s are happy.
Fewer d/d eles=community is happy.
Everyone wins.

I will say that I’ve been seeing some rather good staff and s/f ele’s popping up recently, but from what I understand the traits (2/3 traitlines) and utilities are largely the same from the meta cele build, which does underscore the OP’s point.

It would be nice…but remember, there are other professions in the same boat. Thieves have even less build diversity than eles, for example. They need to increase build diversity for many professions, not just ele.

Agreed.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

Supreme.3164:

Archaon.9524:

Supreme.3164:

Archaon.9524:

Wolfey.3407:

Archaon.9524:

Wolfey.3407:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

so how do you kill ele ?

they kill you 1v1
they chase you down and kill you
they survive 2v1

at least pre nerfed warriors can still be easily put down.

For myself, I’ve found that a couple of strategies have worked out.
1) Wait for them to mess up (wrong element) and DPS hard/ Condi Hard
2) Pour on the CC

Certain variations of Eles do take a while to kill, but that’s where you have to decide to continue to pursue or focus on point A,B, and C instead.

good eles don’t mess up lol

it’s like saying “Just wait for them being totally bad then kill them”

Good anything doesn’t mess up
The op was asking for help about a class not help against a good player.

Thats like saying “just skip what the op said because good players won’t die”

Now that we have gone full circle…. back on topic

lol you can kill scrub players with any spec vs any spec…asking for tips to fight nabs doesn’t make sense, unless you’re worse then them ofc

if you go for a class vs class (Or spec vs spec) topic you must consider all specs being played at their best ofc…i can kill scrub eles on gs/hammer war but that won’t happen vs any decent ele ofc so waiting for them to mess up is not a valid way to fight someone cause you can’t plan to only fight ppl who can’t play

Wait for them to stand still doing nothing then hb them to death lmao

So you ask for nerfs expecting to beat decent eles as easily as scrub eles?
I seriously doubt that anet will ever grant your wish, you will spend a looooong time here on the forum begging for nerfs…

There’s a tiny difference between being able to fight them and having totally no chances vs any average (Not good…just average) d/d ele player, atm there’s basically nothing that can kill an average dd ele while contesting point in a decent amount of time even on celestial nec that is supposed to counter it (And it doesn’t anyway, if he really sux he would just disengage and be fine anyway) still takes so much that going 1v1 is basically not worth the time spent…it’s like 1v1ing a bunker guard on his point with the difference that bunker guard will never be able to kill anything (And gonna be decapped by an engi for example)* while ele can basically kill anyone 1v1 if he tries to stand on point and contest it*

Ele can’t kill anything or outlive anyone else ( average..not good), unless the ele uses D/D. Changes may come but don’t expect anything drastic.

And thieves tend to do poorly unless they use d/p+sb. What’s your point? It’s not as if being forced to use a single weapon setup to be effective is unusual in this game.

From what I understand, thieves and ele’s are the two classes which suffer from the least amount of weaponset diversity, which is a problem…

Ragnarox.9601:

Awww you underpowerd d/d cele ele poor thing you ;( I wish I can buff you but I can’t.

He’s not asking for d/d cele ele buffs, he’s asking for more ele build diversity—ele’s are funneled into the d/d spec because everything else is much worse.

More build diversity=ele’s are happy.
Fewer d/d eles=community is happy.
Everyone wins.

I will say that I’ve been seeing some rather good staff and s/f ele’s popping up recently, but from what I understand the traits (2/3 traitlines) and utilities are largely the same from the meta cele build, which does underscore the OP’s point.

Burn guard shines brightest +1’ing a team fight. Condi PU mesmer has the 1v1 advantage.

Black Box.9312:

The key with condition builds, however, is that because condition application exceeds condition removal, it becomes a matter of overwhelming your opponent over time by applying more than can be cleansed. Conditions already win in the long run just because of how frequently and easily they can be applied, so there’s no need for them to deal so much damage before any sort of cleanses can be used.

Well, I disagree on the basis that that is how power damage works also, with the caveat that power damage can be healed only, while condition damage can be both cleansed and healed.

Black Box.9312:

There’s also the problem with the way condition damage scales. In order to deal high burst damage using a power build, you need to sacrifice survivability. There’s a tradeoff involved; you have to kill your opponent quickly, otherwise they will kill you quickly. Because of how well condition damage scales with just one stat instead of needing three like power builds, you see builds that can kill at an alarmingly fast rate without sacrificing any of that survivability. This is why if you ever try to roam in WvW where stats aren’t normalized you see silly builds like dire p/d thief that are near impossible to kill. They have so much condition pressure, but can still take pretty much anything you can dish at them.

No arguments here: I’m speaking purely from an sPvP perspective, where Dire would indeed be overpowered, but carrion, rabid, settlers, and rampager’s are well balanced.

Someone has to be last…

Supreme.3164:

He sees the problem and offer a solution, a suggestion that would work for both sides while keeping intact the level of competition, now there are guys like this @Salamander…and guys who don’t want any sort of competition, they simply want to steamroll on every ele they see, to which one of the two groups do you belong?

You honor me, sir.

Black Box.9312:

Saiyan.1704:

Black Box.9312:

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

Berserker has far more potential than Dragonhunter ever will.

said the person that told everyone when burn stacking was anounced, that condi guards will suck.

I said that condi guard is a gimmick, actually, which it is. It just happens to be somewhat effective currently because of burning being too strong of a condition. It has nothing to do with the actual build.

Woh woh, hey hey,
Burn Guardians are not nearly as OP as Cele Ele burns. That’s mainly because Cele Ele can darn near instantly apply 7 burn stacks and spam cast RoF (a huge strategic skill that has the potential to apply 3+++ stacks of burns if used correctly) every 12s.

Every other condi class with burns are balanced. Guardian’s are most definitely balanced. We don’t even make good 1v1 builds.. power guards got us beat in that area.

I was saying that burning as a whole is too strong. Blinding Ashes Eles are annoying. x_x

But anyway, it’s kind of problematic that burn can be used as a burst weapon when it’s meant to be DoT. I don’t mind it doing decent damage on non-condi builds, but they really need to tone down the scaling a bit.

I have to agree with Saiyan; burn guard is poor in 1v1, but excels in teamfights. It’s far from OP, and if burn guard is a “gimmick,” then what’s stopping every build from being a “gimmick” ?_?

I agree with Black Box that d/d ele’s burns are over the top, although I suspect that at least part of this issue lies in the fact that you can get an instant 12 burn stacks by being at the edge of the RoF. Anyways, to add a different perspective in response to the bolded quote above, I’ve humbly quoted myself from ~2 weeks ago.

Salamander.2504:

My 2 cents below:

The community has canonically believed that conditions builds are all about a “slow kill” and outlasting your opponent—the attrition standpoint. This is a natural conclusion because of the way condi damage ticks over time.

It is important to note, however, that condition damage is able to be cleansed at the opponents whim, given the right cooldown timings—i.e., condi damage is often cleansed after only a few ticks, or immediately. Given this, it seems logical that condi damage have high burst potential, with the caveat that it can be cleansed easily. In other words, condition builds naturally favor “bursting” to maximize the damage before a cleanse. Even when a condition build baits the opponent’s cleanses by applying condi’s slowly and methodically, they will always try to burst once the opponent’s cleanses are on CD.

Conquest as a game mode favors the quick-kill because: (1) you need the point to tick in your favor to win; (2) ending fights before getting +1’d increases your chance of survival/capping; and (3) allows your rotations to be more flexible, so it should be no surprise that both power and condition builds have the tools necessary to achieve a quick kill. Of course, both power and condi builds can be built for lower dps and higher tankiness, and thus can always be played to be either bursty or attrition-based, as the above posters discuss.

The first one was funny. Now all of us rangers look like spoiled kids who throw a tantrum because we can’t eat our dessert before dinner.

1) The ranger bugs are annoying, not gamebreaking.
2) The way we are talking, you’d think ranger was totally unviable in PvP. How many of us actually play tournaments? Rangers kick butt in ranked.
3) Only 1 BWE to test Druid? Nothing is preventing them from patching Druid post-HoT. And no, you can’t use “previous experience with poor ANet patches” to support your attitude because GW2 has never released an expansion before: you have 0 data points to go off.

ANet does not owe us more Druid transparency, and I encourage us all to drop the entitled attitude.

Krysard.1364:

Dahkeus.8243:

Krysard.1364:

Dahkeus.8243:

Evan Lesh.3295:

I would love to find of a solution to this problem. Its a big barrier for new players learning the game.
Brain dump:
How many of your own cooldowns must you know to be effective. Skills? Traits? Sigils? Runes? Attunements? Kits? Transforms? Everything?
How many cooldowns are too many cooldowns / whats the minimum number to know?
Same question for enemies. How much skill is involved with remembering enemy cooldowns?
Would this new piece of UI benefit PvE the same amount?
Where could this UI live?
First thing that pops into my mind would look just like the quick-loot tray on the right side of the screen with a scrolling list of ordered cooldowns showing name/icon. (No loot in PvP)
I can’t think of any way this could work for enemies.

Yea, the potential to be overwhelmed on your UI with every ICD makes this very problematic. However, I could see adding an option to track ICDs that you’re interested in. I.e. if you want to track that Sigil of Fire proc, you go to the settings and click on a tab with ICD tracking settings and click the checkbox for Sigil of Fire.

That being said, this would probably require a LOT of dev work for a relatively mild QoL payout to players and could make things really messy with balance/skill changes in the future. I mean, keeping up with tooltips is a beast in itself.

I think just an option as the simplified party UI, so you enable/disable tracking passive traits/procs, is enough

Yea, but if you do that, then you potentially have a lot of passive traits/procs that will show up which could cause a lot of clutter.

For example, let’s say you run a standard elixir variant soldier engi. You’ll have these ICDs to track:

- Evasive Powder Keg (10s)
– Aim-Assisted Rocket (10s)
– Hidden Flask (40s)
– Protection Injection (5s)
– Transmute (15s)
– Self-Regulating Defenses (60s)
– Stimulant Supplier (10s)
– Reactive Lenses (40s)
– Lock On (20s)
– Kinetic Charge (20s)

And that’s just from traits. Add runes/sigils and you have:

- Sigil of Intelligence (9s)
– Sigil of Energy (9s)
– Strength Runes might when struck (5s)

That’s a lot of crap to have on your UI when you may only really care about just Kinetic Charge or Self-Regulating Defenses…

I was not talking about all traits, someone suggested before something like lets say traits with 30s cd, or stuff liek this… Imo everybody know which traits are game-changing and which no, so this traits are the ones that need to be tracked, for example Plague Sending proc, Armor of Earth, etc, so unless you run with full passive proc traits, you are not going to have more than 2/3 extra icons

But where do you draw the line? As someone mentioned above, the guard’s Radiant Fire is a really important one, but its only on a 10 s CD. That’s one reason the option to select which ones you want is really appealing.

ArcticPanzerWolf.7692:

…
Also, why am I seeing high MMR players getting rekt by condition builds? Are the condi builds that good? Are high MMR players not adapting? What is the reason for this?

—Condi mesmer, engi, and guard are really bursty—>
—These bursty builds are designed to down people before they can react, which is a moderately reliable way to down people in the current cele/soldier/bunker meta, which is effective at outliving sustained damage—>;
(in the exact same way pre- and post-patch burst builds work[ed]).
—Counterplay: All of the damage can be mitigated by condi cleanses—>
—People run out of condi cleanses—>
—People QQ

T raw.4658:

The way to beat a team full of condi builds is to use group cleanses and extremely good rotations. This generally requires team speak coordination or extremely lucky roll on really good teammates in matchmaking, and at high levels of play you meet these requirements. A random team full of PUGs or teams w/out Teamspeak will generally not have the means necessary to overcome the obstacle.

Good rotations are needed to beat any decent team, so that’s really a neutral point. As far as group cleansing goes, that really doesn’t require teamspeak…anyone with group cleanses is actively watching their party’s condi’s and cleansing when needed. This doesn’t require team coordination to be effective, just one player with decent situational awareness.

All it requires is one guardian, for example. See red? Hit F2. How much simpler can it get?

As the OP and others point out, a bad player running condi’s won’t be effective at higher levels. On the other hand, a good player can run anything and be effective.

Hubris.7436:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

If the timer goes above the average time you get a message that says you have been removed from the queue and must queue again which resets the timer. so i’m calling faked.

I don’t think you know how averages work

Vapour.7348:

Ansilon.6230:

The fact of the matter, to all those that support and run burn builds, is that it’s simply overpowered. 2 stacks is equal to almost 1.4k DPS. Any other condition at 2 stacks is simply not as strong. There is no skill in applying the burning condition what so ever in my opinion. So, for anyone to support this claim is bonkers xD a

Burn damage from high burn stacks is a low tier problem.

One trick pony builds (high burn stack builds) don’t sustain well in more advanced matches PLUS almost everyone has cleansing. Exception is dd ele but I consider that a medium burn stack build

So all the fuss about burn damage are from people that are big on whining and small on pvp acumen.

I support it because it makes pvp a bit more challenging and forces boneheads to equip cleansing or pay the price. A lot pay the price then start kittentt threads about burning and why it should get nerfed.

Guys, the OP even states:

GrandHaven.1052:

They literally are getting carried to higher levels of play because lower tiers do not know how to deal with conditions
……
and consistently face players that are completely above their skill level to such an extend that they don’t even have a chance in 1v1 or even the slightest idea how to play PVP.

To summarize: condi’s are effective at low levels, but not at high levels. The OP even states that condi’s cannot carry the lower player effectively at high levels.

Exactly what is the problem?

One bunker guard and that team’s DPS just went down the toilet.

There are some rather handsome asurans…

Popped signet of judgement while rezzing a teammate this afternoon—-downed a pew-pew ranger while rezzing.

<3 retal.

It’s too situational to build around, but useful to have on-hand when you see a ranger LB #2 or a guard GS # 2, etc.

Shala.8352:

i dont know any condi player that playing a berserker build can beat me
Reason? condi is based on attrition and skill rotationin, so a condi player will have average slower reaction times combo and less reflex than a pure burst player!!!

T raw.4658:

No condi players generally aren’t able to perform nearly as well with power builds.

Defending condi mesmer at this point in time really illustrates a person’s lack of wanting the game balanced and skill based.

Do you guys only play one class, and one build? You never try other styles of play?

Is it truly beyond belief that there are players who excel at both condi and power builds?

I’m almost speechless.

Bumy.8057:

You do know why condi builds are so prevalent? Because its a foolproof and mindless gameplay, something the carebears / casuals adore. It doesn’t matter if you attempt to ’ evade or block the attacks that apply the condis ’ because the relevant condi builds APPLY CONDITIONS ON AUTO ATTACK ontop of the ’ condi burst skills ‘. So even if you use your defensive abilities dealing with just the condi burst, then you’re kitten out of luck because in 3 seconds your gonna have another 10+ confusion stacks and 10+ torment stacks killing you regardless of if your moving / not attacking.

Really? Lets take a look at the AA’s of the “relevant” classes:

Condi mesmer: slow, single stack torment, or slow bleeds/burn from staff (<<1k dmg auto).
Condi necro: slow, single stack bleed or poison.
Condi guard: No condi on AA. 1 stack of burning every kittens (a ~1k stack)
Condi ranger: No condi on AA.
Cele ele: No condi on fire attunement AA.

And wait, what? Why shouldn’t a condi build be able to apply condi’s on auto’s? power builds have burst attacks and still hit (hard) on auto’s, why should a condi build be any different?

My guess is, if you are QQing because a condi build killed you, that player would have killed you just as easily on a power build.

Archaon.9524:

bhagwad.4281:

Was going through the mesmer forum – there’s a lively debate on PU (of course). It’s often said that people rage whenever they lose, but this isn’t always true.

So here are my least raged on professions – when if I lose, I simply go “Ok yeah, they outplayed me” or “They direct countered my build”.

1. Necros (hands down least raged on I think). Possible exceptions: Lich, MM
2. Guardian (pretty honest play). Possible exception: Insta burn bombs these days

What about you? Which professions do you not feel bad about losing to?

when i go burn guard for trolling ppl there is NO match where i don’t get rage and tears

but they kinda right tho since burn guardian is a totally 0 skill spec exploiting nonsense burning…i can’t really blame them, i sometimes feel bad looking at shatter mesmers running around with 8 stacks of burning while they can’t do absolutely nothing to save themselves

I usually agree with people who say i’m running a reterded spec…unless they’re celestial eles..eles have no right to qq bout anything

After playing zerker/rauder and carrion medi guard pre- and post- patch, my burst potential is hands-down higher with a power build. The burn guard is just slightly more survivable due to the extra health from carrion. If a medi guard decides to bust his load, it doesn’t matter whether he’s power or condi, the burst is real. Take a look at the damage coefficients on torch 4—it’s just as good on a power build. People raging against burn guard is an l2p issue—their rotations and burn application is so predictable, there’s plenty of room for counterplay. If you aren’t eating them alive 1v1 at this point, go make one.

Fact: Burning is only ~33-50% of a burn guard’s actual DPS. Thus, you should be grateful when you see a burn guard: unlike a marauder medi guard, the burn guard is literally inviting you to clear 50% of his DPS.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Bumy.8057:

choovanski.5462:

evades, blocks, and most invuns work against condi damage, and you have resistance

I don’t know how delusional you are but, evades and blocks do nothing against condition damage. You can’t evade conditions nor block them once they are applied to you the only way to get rid of them is through cleanse.

You could try avoiding the application. It’s no harder than avoiding a Power based attack.

For example, Grasping Dead is no harder to avoid than Maul, but I bet I know which one you dodge and which you ignore at the time.

I understand that this thread is sarcastic, but I do feel that D/D eles could in fact use a buff (I know I’ll get QQ’d for this). A perfect example of why happened just last night. I was able to down the ele, completely by myself, with only an offhand weapon equipped. It ended up killing me in the down-state, but my point is proven. Don’t believe me? See for yourself; the ele is right where I left him; just walk straight north up the path from the PvP lobby area in HotM.

After extensive theorycrafting and testing, I’ve come up with a unparalleled combination that has less synergy than even the Dragon Hunter. Don’t believe me? Read on.

Altruistic Healing+full signets+Rune of Resistance.

Every signet grants aegis (30s CD), proccing your runes, which procs altruistic healing, providing a minimum of ~70 health, and up to ~350 health in a full group. Every. 30. Seconds. How has no one done this before?

Yeah, the two suggestions above are a great example of a trait that could work.

Supreme.3164:

You don’t outplay the ele at all if you can’t shave 10% off his HP

As an example, a condi ranger (rabid) spamming sword 1 (the highest dmg coefficient attack they have) will never get an ele’s health below 10%—there is never an opportunity to outplay them to begin with.

Supreme.3164:

Salamander.2504:

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

While this is technically a solution to the problem, it really misses the point: people want to play how they want to play. Just because people can go power to avoid getting shafted by diamond skin doesn’t justify a single trait making an entire class of builds obsolete.

What about condi transfer necros? Is it ok for them to hard counter every other condi build out there?

It’s the same concept really, so a condi build will lose to signet necro as much as to DS eles, your chance of victory against both is rather similar

What about condi transfer necros? Condi transfer necro’s have plenty of counterplay: you can block, dodge, LOS the transfers, or bait the tranfers with wimpy conditions before you send in the condi bomb. If a condi build outplays the necro, they can win. This isn’t even hypothetical in the least, people do it every day.

Diamond Skin ele, on the other hand has no counterplay—the condi user can outplay the ele all they want. The fact remains that most rabid builds won’t be able to shave off 10% health.

The chance of winning against a Diamond Skin ele is 0%. A condi build has a much higher chance of victory against a transfer necro.

“Hard” counters are fine. Lack of counterplay to them is not.

sephiroth.4217:

Don’t play 100% condition builds.

I play condition builds when I want an easy win, when a diamond skin ele pops up it will eat me inside out that he denied me my easy win but I won’t go calling for a nerf on it.

While this is technically a solution to the problem, it really misses the point: people want to play how they want to play. Just because people can go power to avoid getting shafted by diamond skin doesn’t justify a single trait making an entire class of builds obsolete.

Jekkt.6045:

…the reason why diamond skin is no resistance is because resistance can be corrupted/stripped and for the same reason berserker stanced wasn’t changed to resistance either.

Heaven forbid the trait offers counterplay, right? So should Necro’s Foot in The Grave stability be incorruptible to fear? Why should Diamond Skin be different from almost every other trait? Resistance is also affected by boon duration, so it’s actually a double-edged sword.

Jekkt.6045:

there is something called rotation, if you go for 1v1s you rotate the best class for that matchup to that given point. condi engi vs diamond skin ele is a fairly bad matchup, so just don’t rotate that way. condi engi has also a disadvantage against necros with transfers/conditions, necro has no diamond skin and still you shouldn’t send the condi engi against it.

This analogy is misleading. Condi engi vs. necro is a bad matchup because it’s heavily favored to the Necro. The engi can win, however, by outplaying the necro and baiting transfers, for example. Condi engi vs. diamond skin ele is not a bad matchup, its an unwinnable, one-sided matchup. The condi engi has no opportunity to outplay the ele and win.

Before someone pipes up that “PvP isn’t balanced around 1v1”, I hope we can all agree that 1v1’s happen all the time. Condi engi wants to take home at the start of a match? Too bad, a diamond skin ele decided to push far. At best, its a tactical blunder for a voice-comms team; at worst, it ends in obliteration for a PUG.

The Diamond Skin trait is extremely passive, it isn’t build defining in the least, and it has no counterplay from pure condi builds. Should we really be encouraging people who want to run carrion or rabid to run more cele just so they can get an ele to 90%?

On the other side of the token, the trait does absolutely nothing for the ele for the duration of a team fight and/or when your health isn’t sky-high, which makes a GM trait useless for a huge portion of the fight. That doesn’t sound right at all. Some rework should be implemented in order to:
1) Prevent a single trait from hard-countering an entire build “genre” (condi)
2) Make the trait slightly more “build-defining,” requiring active and/or synergistic play to prevent/remove condi’s, rather than passive play.
3) Make the trait functional at all times. Currently, Diamond Skin acts as an invincibility shield when fighting condi builds or any soft-cc openers, but does absolutely nothing otherwise.

For example, all of the above points could be easily addressed by changing Diamond Skin to: “Gain 3 seconds of Resistance when attuning to Earth”
for example, or something much more clever, but basically anything along those lines.

Nyx.6532:

the issue i see with the condi damage right now is that condi damage is supposed to be SLOW applied over time damage, but very high overall damage. (it never really was this… it was always applied WAY too fast for this concept)
any condisetup which will fully kill you in 10 seconds or lesss, is not slow :P….

Says who, exactly?

+1