Guild Wars 2

Tim.6450:

SilverWF.4789:

This:

Nades.
3 nades per 5 targets, 2 times in 1 second: 3*5*2*9=270 unique hits.
270*400 = 108000 retaliation damage or 12k per second
every nade able to hit for ~800r, so it will be 216k total
FOUR times more “rewarding” than Elems, right?

Euh, grenades attack speed lies about 1 set per second not 2. Also you forgot the 15 stacks of vulnerability you apply per set.

So? It will be 6k Retaliation per second with 108k damage total. Do you really don’t understand where you was failed or not?
15 stacks of Vuln at each target per throw? Really?

Pretty enjoyable fights in mid-tier against bads.
Thank you!

This:

You are continue popping this stupid example with Meteor shower? Ok, let’s take it.
24 hits per 3 target each. 72 separate hits. 72*400=28800 retaliation damage.
But, Ele can switch to water and start healing himself. Or use another skills to deal damage.
Also, it goes not in 1 second, but in 9 seconds, so it will be 3200 retal damage per second only
But, how many damage he able to do total? Every meteor hits for ~3,5k damage (2,5k non crit and up to 5k crit), so let’s calculate: 72*3500=252k damage and more!

What’s about Engi here?
Flame jet hits 3 targets with 5 _ hits per second. So, it will be 3*5*9=135 unique hits per 9 seconds.
It will bring him 54000 retaliation damage or 6k per second. Without possibility to switch for something healing.
What about total damage? Every FJ hit deals ~500 damage. Or 67500 damage per 9 seconds total.
(Sooooo overpowered, yeah!)

Nades.
3 nades per 5 targets, 2 times in 1 second: 3*5*2*9=270 unique hits.
270*400 = 108000 retaliation damage or 12k per second
every nade able to hit for ~800r, so it will be 216k total
FOUR times more “rewarding” than Elems, right?

Guardian staff#1
10 hits every second or 90 hits
90*400=36k or 4k/sec
Every hit deals ~1500 damage or 135k total
the same non-cd and non-target skill

So, point me please to the TRULY rewarding risk.

SilverWF.4789:

So, to make it ABSOLUTELY fair, Retaliation must bring the % of incoming damage (after armor and boons calculation sure). Maybe 5%, but it is debatable.
Also, it will be pretty easy to implement.

This

Yes, you must kick Sylvari from guilds.
Also as Asuras.

Novuake.2691:

But I agree when it comes to condi application, nades can be OP, still not usable with retal though.

There is no place to discuss this, but not. Nades are way OP to bring Vulnerability condition only, all another traits has internal CD, so forget about AOE.
Also, it was approved, that conditions are not an issue in big fights because there is way more ways to constantly cleanse it from self and allies – most of time it can’t even tick once!

Squee.7829:

There’s nothing wrong with the Trade Post.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Black-Lion-blank-pages-after-update/first#post4693371

So, to make it ABSOLUTELY fair, Retaliation must bring the % of incoming damage (after armor and boons calculation sure). Maybe 5%, but it is debatable.
Also, it will be pretty easy to implement.

naiasonod.9265:

The truly rewarding skill is stopping what you’re doing, then doing something that doesn’t immediately cause you to kill yourself.

I’m sure you can find something other than flamethrower and grenades to use, yeah? Some other way to be useful sometimes? I see engineers out there plenty often. I see plenty of them not dropping dead all the time like the world’s out to get them.

Adapt or keep dyin’, mate. There’s a very good chance they’re not going to nerf this no matter what you think or don’t.

You just approved that I’m right.
Because “stopping what you’re doing” means “stop dealing damage” and with the same amount of Retaliation that Elem have you will bring maybe 10 times less damage.
So how the hell you dare to say about “rewarding risk”??? If I’m risking – OK, but where is my reward?

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

I do not NEED more sustain, I know enemies will use retaliation, and anticipate, I use well of suffering first with necro, just because of this.
And when on ele You WILL get full hits when you attack zergs. And while you will not get the 100000 damage, but IF they use retal you will go down. = Anti spike...

And staff #1 from guard hits 5 people, You hit 15 _with corresponding conditions_ do not forget that. You can say retaliation is op , but please also reverse it. You have IMHO one of the easiest weaponsets available , with a very short cooldown, providing massive AOE.

Making it completely unpunishable would also instantly require a drastic engineer grenade NERF, as enigineers are already OP as shown in PvP. You are just trying to make enigineer MORE OP. And NERF 5 other classes.

I fully disagree with your motivation engineer is the only victim, and I want to know how people are going to defend against AOEs? Especially unblockable marks, unblockable traps and BIG AOE fields?

And I tried to explain other AOE fields with pulses will also get a lot of retaliation damage. You seem to fail to see having your 5 skills hitting *75 targets* in seconds can cause problems, to yourself. Also IMHO when I hear I shouldn’t cry about people staying in my MS why do you focus so much about all those people in YOUR field of fire, as they should be moving off as well?

I think you are aware how dangerous Flamthrowers are when fighting them with melee weapons. and while trying to melee retaliation is needed else you will fail... which would cause flamthrower to be nerfed as well as conseqence...

In the end: recapping: Your grenades are High Risk High Reward, as are my meteor showers or 8 stacked Wells& Marks. And I would very much dislike it to see retaliation removed as it would make all AOE skills something different: It would make AoE’s _overpowered_ and thus ready to be NERFED.

Everything needs a counter in a game else it will be overpowered, and anything that will be OP will be nerfed.

Mate, you are blinded or what? High risk reward? Not grenades. Nades dealing a way low damage for being called like that.
(your PVP experience just LOL. Retaliation is not an issue in PVP)

You are continue popping this stupid example with Meteor shower? Ok, let’s take it.
24 hits per 3 target each. 72 separate hits. 72*400=28800 retaliation damage.
But, Ele can switch to water and start healing himself. Or use another skills to deal damage.
Also, it goes not in 1 second, but in 9 seconds, so it will be 3200 retal damage per second only
But, how many damage he able to do total? Every meteor hits for ~3,5k damage (2,5k non crit and up to 5k crit), so let’s calculate: 72*3500=252k damage and more!

What’s about Engi here?
Flame jet hits 3 targets with 5 _ hits per second. So, it will be 3*5*9=135 unique hits per 9 seconds.
It will bring him 54000 retaliation damage or 6k per second. Without possibility to switch for something healing.
What about total damage? Every FJ hit deals ~500 damage. Or 67500 damage per 9 seconds total.
(Sooooo overpowered, yeah!)

Nades.
3 nades per 5 targets, 2 times in 1 second: 3*5*2*9=270 unique hits.
270*400 = 108000 retaliation damage or 12k per second
every nade able to hit for ~800r, so it will be 216k total
FOUR times more "rewarding" than Elems, right?

Guardian staff#1
10 hits every second or 90 hits
90*400=36k or 4k/sec
Every hit deals ~1500 damage or 135k total
the same non-cd and non-target skill

So, point me please to the TRULY rewarding risk.

Great job to ruin my Black Lion Trade Post completely.

I won’t "remove Retaliaton", I say "make it the same for every class".
Period.

Tao.5096:

Well, I gotta agree with naiasonod.
If majority of groups with engineers win, despite enemy team having perma retaliation, then why should it be nerfed/changed/adjusted to your specific group, because you wipe on it?
It proves that there is a countermeasure and either you don’t know what it is, or simply don’t want to use it.

There is NO “majority” groups with Engis, Engineers by itself – rare class. And sure, we need “contrmeasure” against non-exist Engineers groups, but must not have it againts huge number of mindlessly #1 spammers guardians/warriors groups.

Stop trashtalking here please, how many times I need to repeat this?
We do not ask for advices (I can give a tons of it by myself), we don’t need your roaming experience, we don’t need your fairytales about overpowered Engineers DPS, we don’t need your dreams about “check every enemy and strip 10 boons at once”, we don’t need your fantasies about “coordination and sniping some classes”. All of this MUST be count as trolling.
But I wonder, that you can troll someone freely here, but have no rights to call someone as troll. “Democracy” double standards.

Also, they can change some skills, i.e. Flame Jet brings Retaliation only for 1st hit.
There is a tons of methods to fix this.
But the current situation is unbearable!

spiritus.7983:

the most pro ppl I seen are war+thief party in eotm, bursting alone low lvls. This week seen them few times same two ppl. Once they got me and after they kill me I got a whisper “noob necro”

did not reply, but got me thinking how low two ppl can be to put in such effort to kill a low lvl, block him, copy his id, unblock him, whisper him “noob profession”?

Actually, you can whisper to someone without unblocking him

I think I need to repeat this post to stop this “smart” advices about boon stripping.

SilverWF.4789:

also, some genius with obvious advices about “strip boos” maybe will be interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmePzrl-jAs

Dunno who is this, just found it yesterday occasionally.
Just check how long time he have buffs (and Retaliation sure) and how long he have conditions. Also check this at his targets, when he have target selected – most of time he didn’t.
I’ve found, what there is 100% uptime of main buffs and ~70% of Retaliation. And something like 15% of conditions uptime.

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

Hi there!
How about to make a limit for retaliation? Let it can hit the same target only once per second?
Or let it will be affected by Toughness and Armor
Or let it will scales up from Condition damage (since it ignoring armor, like any another conditions), but not from Power.

Because it really sucks while playing with multi-hit-per-second classes, for example Flamethrower/Grenade Engineer. You are able to literally kill yourself in 2-3 seconds only using your own offensive skills and even not being hit by enemies!

Since you think I don’t know what the op even is, here’s your sign.

Don’t use grenade and flamethrower when you know you’re just going to kill yourself. Get smarter than that. Coordinate. Get some people set up to strip boons and have them synchronize use of them just a bit. Time your burst to right after the strippers (formal title) rip the prot and retal stacks down.

In the meantime, get some thieves and rangers coordinating into guardian kill squads. Kill all guardians. Kill all mesmers too. But guardians especially.

It sounds more complicated than it is. And it works pretty well.

Just follow a tag and do whatever when blobs collide and, honestly, what were you expecting to eventually happen?

You should be rewarded for being smart, not have the matter dumbed down so you don’t have to try anymore.

I don’t need advices from someone, who playing thief in small scaled fights only and can bring advices to this mode, even if noone asked this.

We don’t have retal problems though, mate. And there’s nothing small scale about charging around with fifty or sixty of of one’s guild, as well as all the stragglers that ride with the tornado.

It really doesn’t seem like you’ve got any problems that some coordination and timing wouldn’t fix. That’s my point here.

Basically, you are didn’t have a Retal problems, because you are “very useful” side_wounded_enemies_finisher_thief. kkhxbye.

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

Hi there!
How about to make a limit for retaliation? Let it can hit the same target only once per second?
Or let it will be affected by Toughness and Armor
Or let it will scales up from Condition damage (since it ignoring armor, like any another conditions), but not from Power.

Because it really sucks while playing with multi-hit-per-second classes, for example Flamethrower/Grenade Engineer. You are able to literally kill yourself in 2-3 seconds only using your own offensive skills and even not being hit by enemies!

Since you think I don’t know what the op even is, here’s your sign.

Don’t use grenade and flamethrower when you know you’re just going to kill yourself. Get smarter than that. Coordinate. Get some people set up to strip boons and have them synchronize use of them just a bit. Time your burst to right after the strippers (formal title) rip the prot and retal stacks down.

In the meantime, get some thieves and rangers coordinating into guardian kill squads. Kill all guardians. Kill all mesmers too. But guardians especially.

It sounds more complicated than it is. And it works pretty well.

Just follow a tag and do whatever when blobs collide and, honestly, what were you expecting to eventually happen?

You should be rewarded for being smart, not have the matter dumbed down so you don’t have to try anymore.

I don’t need advices from someone, who playing thief in small scaled fights only and can bring advices to this mode, even if noone asked this.

Soooo many advices here from Anet stuff....

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

No I want it to remain what it is: -UNLIMITED-, it’s a deterrent. And you can say Oh my engi is so squishy, but I meant to say ALL other classes have a similar problem, retaliation is a Anti Spiking Tool. And you use grenades to spike. Why can’t this be understood?

Tha Age of Armageddon! Remember. hen you will be bombed by eles, and the wellmancers destroy you in wvw

Not all classes have this problem. You didn’t know that, because you didn’t test all classes, as I’m.
Basically, all classes do the same dynamic AOE damage (not static AOE-fields, like in your example with Meteor Shower - only dumbs will stay in this).
Let’s compare Guardian Staff #1 (every blob uses it in 80% cases) and Engineer FT #1
For 2 seconds Guardian will able do 2 or 3 casts. Per 5 targets. 10-15 hitsback with retal.
Engi will hit 3 targets (this restriction by itself just LOL, also as lower range and cone angle - just LOL) with 5 _ hits per second, so this will be 30 hitsback with Retal.
They both will do same amount of damage, but Engi will be punished 3 times harder. Fair? Sure not.
Guardian Hammer #2 - it deals HUGE amount of damage with only 4 sec CD and only 5 Retaliation procs.
Engineer Grenade: 3 grenades per 5 targets each. 15 retal hitbacks every throw or 30 per second.
Fair? Sure not.

But with my main suggestion here it all will be more sustain for every class. Huge amount but rare hit classes wouldn’t noticed any changes.
But this will be more love for Engis.
Why?
Because 1 per second for same target from same target will be a huge change.
Flamethrower #1 will hits you only 6 times per 2 second channel instead of 30. And only if you hit the same targets every time. If targets will be different every time, so it will be 30 hits with retal again, but this is impossible, also as the same targets all the time. So it will be 10-15 hits, as everyone have now.

Or, they can change Omnomberry food again. Leech basically has a 2 parts: damage and heal. And this parts already separated and independent from each other. So let the damage part will have the current limit (1/sec) but the heal part will be unlimited, as it was before.

naiasonod.9265:

Another coordinated blob? Well, that’s when it gets interesting. No?

Oh, God, “pro” players speaks, all get away!
Every blob uses the same tactic: stack, buff might, Veil, place fields, use blasts, then spam Staff#1. Sooooooooooooo “pro”.
So why the hell only Engineers must be punished by Retaliation?

Also, so “pro” players as you can’t even read. bet, you have no idea what I’m suggesting, you are just against that because… no, the “troll” word is restricted here
So you are against that, because you didn’t want to change everything in your gamestyle. Yeah, it is pretty easy to mindlessly spam blasts in blob. And thieves can do that much better than another classes.
Or you a kind of thieves who lurking NEAR blob fights and fastkills some wounded players. Or maybe just stomping.
“pro” player, LOL.

Tao.5096:

I pop flamethrower and want to 30k burn anyone in a sec.
Oh wait, I’m downed….
Retaliation?!
NERF !@^%#%$

30k burn? Are we playing in the same game? 5k per 2 sec channel – that’s a real numbers. And this numbers pretty usual for another classes, but they do not have Retal problems only because they have less numbers of hits.

naiasonod.9265:

SilverWF.4789:

naiasonod.9265:

Novuake.2691:

naiasonod.9265:

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

Hahahhaa you clearly have very little understanding of either class. ESPECIALLY Engineer.

hahahahahhahahahahahahah answers still no hahaha lololol and I couldn’t care less.

So yeah, things relying on fast attacks get nailed hard by retaliation. Wade into layers of retaliation spamming fast attacks, kill yourself.

Sounds like a L2P issue, not a broken mechanic.

And the actually one who need to learn to play here is you.

Your total lack of evidence to sustain your point is …well, rather typical. You don’t like my opinion? Good for you. I see it as neither being broken nor especially in need of any sort of nerf.

Spoiler: I have a thief that I play in wvw. There’s a magic trick to not killing yourself on layers of retal. I’m not going to tell you what it is.

You wanna tell me I don’t know how to play? Getin line – I swear I’ll care tomorrow. Promise.

Lack of evidence? Lol! Read this thread and try to find something.
And your “pro” advice about boon strip too – already answered for this advice.

naiasonod.9265:

Novuake.2691:

naiasonod.9265:

So, lets get rid of one of the only mechanics thieves and engineers actually have to turn their brains on to deal with?

No.

Hahahhaa you clearly have very little understanding of either class. ESPECIALLY Engineer.

hahahahahhahahahahahahah answers still no hahaha lololol and I couldn’t care less.

So yeah, things relying on fast attacks get nailed hard by retaliation. Wade into layers of retaliation spamming fast attacks, kill yourself.

Sounds like a L2P issue, not a broken mechanic.

And the actually one who need to learn to play here is you.

5 Zerk thieves!
:D

Open WvW-panel then and at the second tab try to find Robust buff

Thanks for the advice, done this, but it doesn’t help

Unlimited Retaliation procs is still an issue

Up to this wonderful suggestion!

I found only Dagger skin at least not horrible.

I’m glad for you, but I have this bug.

I was in the game and Black Lion worked correctly, then "New build will be avialible, blah-blah", then client was closed, update started, updated successfully, game launched and Black Lion was bugged. And bugged still.

It has blank pages when pressing "O", when interacting with BL specialist, when right-click on items and choose "Buy/Sell on trading post"
How I can play if I can’t buy or sell something on TP?

Thank God it’s back!

Only PVE-players pops NOT-water fields in the pack of players while fighting Jormag

"Bad players" have a way to harass another even now. So stop this trash about "Omg, I’m afraid that someone will say me I’m bad"

Still not working!

Sinbold.8723:

but imho, thief stealth should be in line with mesmer’s invis.

Sure mate!
Also as Mesmer’s clones should be in line with thieves elite skill “Thieves guild”

Press H, then Story Journal, then "Living world Season 2", point 8 and "Continue this episode"
Isn’t it obvious?

And? How to fix this?
This bug caused by this update, so there is nothing to check at my PC and nothing to ask from my ISP.

After the update the whole Black lion system bugged for me: it shows blank pages only. Everywhere: Gem Store, Gem exchange and Auction

Please fix this

schnitzel.9018:

Many Achieved 250k Kills. So u would get it too.

Many? Lol! Zero in comparison with number of WvW-players (not even with a total number of players)

Decado.9304:

Should remove siege from EotM, people love PvD so much they should faceroll everything

Yes, and, additionally, every objective will lost it’s allegiance to faction in 10 minutes.
Coz sometimes, there is not enough enemies and noone take back lost keeps

Look at screen - yesterday evening. How we can continue farm in last 40 minutes?

Malediktus.9250:

Here are what I would find realistic requirements for the final tier of the WvW achievements - based on my 4 digit hours I spend on different activities in WvW:

Realm Avenger: Kill 50,000 players (that equals tagging and destroying 1000 - 50 men zergs) - down from 250k kills
Yakslapper: Kill 3,000 enemy supply caravans. - down from 1m dolyak caravans
A Pack Dolyak’s Best Friend: Successfully escort 1,000 supply caravans. - down from 500k escorts
Repair Master: Spend 25,000 supply on repairs. - down from 1m supplies
Take Everything in Sight: Capture 10,000 objectives. (Eotm reactors and special objectives count towards this) - down from 1m objectives
Going Camping: Capture 2,500 supply camps. - down from 100k camps
It’s Quite Roomy in Here : Capture 2,500 towers. - down from 100k towers
All We See, We Own: Capture 1,000 keeps. (keeps take more effort to capture and less available in total) - down from 100k keeps
King of the Castle: Capture Stonemist Castle 500 times. - down from 25k castles
Stay Out!: Defend 3,000 objectives. - down from 1m objectives
Walls Get in the Way: Defend 500 supply camps. (Camps are tricky to defend and no walls you can repair for easy defense events, event often does not trigger even if you killed agressors) - down from 500k camp defenses
Stopped Them Cold: Defend 1,000 towers. - down from 500k defenses
Nice View From Up Here: Defend 1,000 keeps. - down from 500k defenses
Stonemist Stands Firm–Again: Defend Stonemist Castle 1,000 times. - down from 500k defenses

I think these requirements would motivate more people to play WvW - and more importantly do all aspects of WvW including dolyak escorts and defending. I expect with these requirements it would take about 2000 hours (= 5.5hours per day for a year) for the average player to max out WvW achievements.

Agree
I.e. 500k SM defenses - what? How many years I need to sit in the EB only and only at SM?
Every defense event goes for 3 min. So, 60/3=20 per hour. If you are playing for 4 hours per day it will be 80 defense events per day.
So, 500k/80=6250/365= 17
SEVENTEEN YEARS!
And only if SM will be 100% of time yours and 100% of time attacked by some forces, not strong enough to take it. Obviously, this is impossible, so the real time will be more in 2 or even 3 times!

Zetsumei.4975:

I know where I’ll be heading to kill tonight

Yeah, yesterday I was enraged by Kodashes, coz every time when I’m started roaming fight – I was just steamrolled by their zerg.
Switched to EOTM and got my fun by killing someone, who have no idea how to play their own class.
Too bad I understand that it was like beating kids…

Nephrite.6954:

Rangers shouldn’t have a problem cause all they have to do is stay away from danger zones and pew themselves to victory. Thieves can barely take down good guards if they’re forced to 1v1.

If thieves will lost all gap closers – OK. But now, with no problem jumps up to 5000 – no way
Kill good guardian just impossible for Zerk ranger.

As for me, Life Blast is pretty OK, even OP a bit.

EOTM for farm only!
If you wanna grow your e-stick by killing AFKers, zergers with not-roaming specs or even green arrows - go to borders and that there.

Gandara - T2 server :P
But, you have Jade Sea in your current matchup - they have pretty strong roamers btw...

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNEQJATRjEq0yaFLOsw1ag9gadAUAndregdHMChQFORC-T1BBABYp8DgnAgh6CKa/hGuEAjq+zZKBDAcAM8wJ8wBM8wDP8wDXKA9EGB-w

84% without Perception stacks and 96% with 25 stacks.
But this is true glasscannon

Can’t believe someone are so "cool" to be killed in duel from shortbow...

Keyboardwarrior.8021
Have you ever tried to turn your camera around? You know, "pop from nowhere" - something specific to thieves only, not for rangers, sad but true.
In the another thread was approved, what thieves can easily jump for up to 5000 range to the poor ranger. So I have no idea what you are talking about now: drop pistol 5 ... HS ... seconds of animation... eating Rapid Fire ...