Showing Posts For Sion.1653:
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Totally agree. Not much else left to say – nice post. I doubt we’ll see this anytime soon, if ever, sadly.
Coming from a player since launch, and who is not yet even 80, I think a guy who has 400 hours and a lot of work and time put in, should be slightly more powerful than someone who hasn’t. Gear progession gives ppl something to work for, otherwise hit 80 and then get bored and stop playing. Sad but true.
I respect your opinion and I honestly understand where you’re coming from.
But would it be so wrong for the reward of a player that plays a lot to simply be better at using what everyone else has, rather than being inherently better just through numbers? There would be much more ‘pride’ or whatever through defeating an opponent (or mobs) through expert use of the general tools rather than being given an elite set of tools to accomplish the same task?
Just some thoughts.
I hope that in future updates and expansion packs more skills are introduced and more freedom is given to the skill bar. Unless this happens, I feel that we are beginning to head down a path that no one really wants to take.
I believe you remember well the feeling: “oh, I MUST have that elite skill” ~Goes through mountains and deserts after a boss to capture their elite~
This, in essence, is what I loved about GW1. Looking at that shiny new elite on the skill bar after a long and often challenging fight is an unparalleled feeling of reward. And how, after obtaining the skill, I’d stick around in that zone for a while just for the sake of having two elites at once. I felt so cool. It was a blast.
/nostalgia
Again, not saying GW2 should be GW1. But heck, why can’t it be as much fun? Freedom of choice to tackle challenges in creative and intuitive ways is key, as well as properly implementing and rewarding mastery of mechanics. I wish for more varied and more free-form skill bars, but I dare not hope for these changes, lest my remaining enjoyment of this game is further crushed by the contemplation of what it could have been.
Sigh.
The re-prioritizing of player skill and creativity over gear.
“[Anet] were trying to be decent men, in an indecent time!”
Someone get this reference. Please.
It shouldn’t be GW1, just also shouldn’t have strayed so far. In guild wars we had countless ways to customize our playstyle, and gear was just the cherry on the top of the cake, while in GW2, gear seems to be the cake itself.
You could spend a lot of time just thinking on the choices you could make in GW1, ranging from attributes, skills and armor upgrades.
In GW2, it is pretty straightforward: max this stat and period. Gear over skill.
Exactly. It feels over simplified and unrewarding. What’s the fun in using tools already made and handed straight to us to accomplish challenges meant to be handled by them?
We all enjoy freedom of choice and the ability to use our methods while others use theirs. The blatant limits on choice and customization are truly disappointing, between the outright and unsatisfactory number of skills, to the funneling of certain types of skills to certain slots, to the outright predetermined nature of the first five slots based on weapon. Honestly, the weapon-specific skills are great in theory. Perhaps in the future we will see, rather than a specific 3-5 skills per weapon, a list of skills per weapon that can fit those slots.
The combat mechanics in GW2, however, does require some skill, and groups of really skilled players can do well without proper gear, even without voice chat coordination.
But then again, gear makes all the difference.
I do applaud the game here. They have good base combat mechanics that show promise. But again, as you also mentioned, I feel that gear is still being placed too high on the list of important factors. I feel that it should be Skill Build > Mechanic Mastery > Gear, roughly. Assuming that Mechanic Mastery would be the deciding factor in evenly-built player-versus combat, and the distinguishing factor between two players using the same build in PvE, with Gear preferably playing as little of a role as possible.
(edited by Sion.1653)
As of late, the game has started down a path that emphasizes gear. This is not an evil in itself, as many argue. However, it can and will become a severe detriment to variation and creativity among builds when gear begins to be more important than skill.
Yes, I’m going to compare this game to Guild Wars 1. Let’s see what happens:
We all know that in Guild Wars 1 armor was level-based, without tier. Level 20 armor was max armor, period, the end. It was a good, simple system. What, then, was the point of playing the rest of the game if maximum ‘stats’ had been reached at a very short amount of time played relative to other such games?
Skill. Or should I say, skills. It was reminiscent of a trading card game. The fun was mixing and matching different builds based on the skills you had and, when you grew tired of making what you had work, you went out and got more skills. Why? It was fun, interesting, and made you use your brain. You had to create builds with foresight in mind if you wanted to reach maximum efficiency. Creating a build involved planning, then skill gathering, and then the enjoyment or tragedy of watching your custom build be made or broken in the field.
This was fun and intellectually challenging.
What we have here, in Guild Wars 2, is apparently a severe lack of skills, which take out a whole lot of skill in customizing a build. And with the introduction of Ascended Armor and Infusions, the emphasis becomes more about what gear we will be wielding determining our competence rather than our ability to intuitively select skills appropriate for certain encounters.
This worries me. This isn’t fun. This isn’t creative. We have armor that serves too much of a role, and skills that are not important or varied enough.
What makes this game different than other gear-based MMORPG’s? In GW1 progression was about build customization to overcome challenges. Yes, gear was important, in terms of specialization through Runes, but not important beyond that. The fact that tiers such as Rare and Exotic exist and Ascended is being introduced are already signs that GW2 relies too little on personal ability and capacity and more on simply having the right stats.
GW2 is not GW1. I’m not saying it should be. But I think they could definitely benefit from implementing more opportunities for individual creativity and intution beyond acquiring gear and using halfway pre-defined and halfway categorized skill slots. Overcoming a difficult challenge is a lot more rewarding when we invent the designs to do so, rather than accept the method that is placed before us.
What do you all think? How can Anet best re-prioritize skill?
(edited by Sion.1653)
The problem is, a lot of player actually do want gear with higher stats. However, this form of reward isn’t really new content, just more of the same but 2.0 version. They should look at how the handled new content in GW1 – that game seemed to have it going on.
This is a good idea. (probably would have better luck in the suggestion forum, however)
Already posted a suggestion for LFG channel. It would be all too simple.
Unless an ‘LFG’ channel is implemented, LA’s /map channel will forever be muddled with the chaotic combination of people just chilling and players looking for FotM groups. The easiest method I see to resolve this (other than moving FotM out of LA) is to simply create a new channel for this purpose.
Easy-peazy-lemon-squeezy.
Basically Anet has mandated the creation of a ‘LFG’ chat channel, or FotM should be moved. I would honestly prefer the former, but it might never come despite player feedback.
That would be too easy, wouldn’t it? If they straight-up told us whether or not there would be more tiers, we would be able to each form stable and accurate opinions on whether we actually find this game to be worth our time.
But I’m sure we’ll just have to live with deciphering ambiguity.
Yeah. The saddest part is that I love the game – honestly I haven’t played it nearly as much as others and there is tons and tons of content for me still to do. But it all feels meaningless if at the end of my hard work I know that gear-chasing awaits me. Often I literally contemplate launching the game for a few moments but ultimately decide to chill on the forums instead and talk it out with the other posters, because that feels more entertaining sometimes. Which isn’t good.
I agree, we’re not headed in a positive direction unless we change course while we can. But it’s important to distinguish – the mindset of the players desiring only the ‘top’ (whether relevant or not) geared combatants is the way of life for games like this. However, shame on Anet for giving them a way to show such attitudes, aka Ascended gear. What was so wrong with GW1’s max armor system?
Maybe Anet has a big picture in mind that we can’t see yet. But right now it looks like a chaotic mess that they are sporadically creating with the hope of striking gold somewhere on the way.
Clever, made me smile. All too true; this thread will most likely be merged or deleted.
You didn’t miss anything more than a laggy zergfest for the event. The servers aren’t capable of handling such large masses in one area; not sure why Anet thought they would when they’ve been shown to have similar issues before. Combined with all the bugs – not sure exactly what we’re supposed to take away from this event. It sure won’t be an epic feeling of adventure and excitement, unless the finale is a total turnaround.
I hate to be to pessimistic, and usually I’m an optimist. But today’s event was perhaps too ambitious server-wise, seeing as they are rather incapable of holding up under the stress. (yes, it’s free trial event too – that definitely adds)
I would blame it on Anet being new to this sort of game. But they’re not. So, I literally cannot fathom a reason for their apparent lack of general foresight. Perhaps they have more stuff in the works? I get tired of trying to be super optimistic about all the happenings of late.
Good post, good thoughts. (but the misplaced apostrophe in the title drives me nuts… =P)
Luckily they aren’t re-prioritizing your time (I totally agree with your viewpoint on this matter) all at once, full-blown. They’ve only introduced a couple new items, meaning the grind for gear will be gradual, as items are released, rather than all the items being available now. That’s at least a bright side to a rather dim prospect.
Woe to the player that joins once the full Ascended set is out.
You can re-use it, assuming someone else doesn’t take it in the seconds before you re-name your next. Which is completely unlikely.
I understand why they move the threads – this forum would be total chaos without it.
But mashing the threads together makes conversation and actual discussion in those topics nigh impossible, since at any time a whole new thread will be merged and everything jumbled.
Which one kills faster
Ha, good one. Like you’ll be killing anything as either of those classes.
/sarcasm
I’m gonna be that guy. Start both, play em to level 10-20 (doesn’t take long) and you’ll have a basic feel of the mechanics and style. Don’t go for whichever one is currently less underpowered than the other – that’s subject to change, possibly sporadically. Just go with whichever is more fun (relative term) to play.
The cat’s out of the bag. Two developers are in charge of balance adjustments; it’s been admitted. What does this mean?
Two developers. Hundreds of skills. Intricate synergies and counters across eight classes to be considered. Two people? Two?
This post probably won’t turn out like you think it will.
“Wow, Anet is so dumb. They only have two employees on balance. This must be why the game is ‘terrible’.”
No, they aren’t. In fact, having two employees working together on balance adjustments actually makes sense, from a practical viewpoint. Imagine if, say, twenty people were working on balance adjustments for hundreds of skills and eight classes. How could they work at high speeds without accidentally overwriting or undoing/invalidating the work of another employee working on a very similar issue? They would constantly have to check in real time what everyone else was working on, and they would all have to be on the same page or they would just create problems exponentially worse.
With two dev’s, the process is simpler. They can easily communicate face to face in real time, and they definitely know where the other one stands on certain issues and what they’re working on. It’s easy as a player base to be absolutely dumbfounded by the fact that ‘only two’ dev’s are making changes but, in fact, I would venture to say that it actually makes the process much more efficient and ensures that what they want to change is actually changed, and not more or less, and without introducing a mess.
Where am I going with this?
Let’s chill out. Take a deep breath. Yes, it takes some time for two people to attend to the massive lists of to-do things. Let’s give them some breathing room. Perhaps they are, right now, working on a dedicated bug-fix and class-balance patch. And if they aren’t, I guarantee you they are mulling over more potential changes and fixes to existing problems.
People are mad that the balance adjustments tend to come slowly. There is merit to this. But wouldn’t you rather them to come slowly, and deliberately, rather than quickly and rashly? It’s like having a Republic instead of Democracy – we’d much rather issues be mulled over and definitively answered rather than a flurry of ‘fixes’ coming out every week to undo mistakes of previous such ‘fixes’ and introducing new ‘fixes’.
So. Patience. Is a virtue. It will all get sorted out eventually. I still trust Anet to have a bigger picture in mind – even if the short term is unsatisfying. I’m willing to wager that there is reason to still be hopeful in the works. So, even amidst the current turmoil, let’s give feedback in respectful and useful ways, instead of mere mockery and sarcastic slashes at Anet’s integrity. Don’t worry about defaming their reputation or shouting louder than the next guy that two developers is not enough – let’s let them prove us wrong. Positive changes take time. They’ve got a lot on their plate right now. Let’s give them some space.
tl;dr Read it.
(edited by Sion.1653)
Honestly, I make enough just by playing the game (exploring the zones as I encounter them, completing heart quest, etc). If you’re already max level and still are unsure, I’m sure some quick googling could help you out. There’s not really a secret to being better at this game, some just understand it in less time. The more you play and get comfortable with crafting and dungeons, the more it will all start to click.
Good post. I agree completely; this instance is a perfect example of why Anet so rarely opens their mouth about anything in the works. It might drive players mad that we don’t know what’s going on – but look how much more angry the masses are when we finally were given a tidbit of info, but complications arose and expectations were not precisely met. It’s a slippery slope of keeping us totally uninformed versus giving us too many promises, and they have to find the balance.
Here’s the thing. If Ascended has already been stated to be a tier above Exotic, I don’t exactly view it as a crime for them to be even better, given we already knew that they were superior. This doesn’t really change anything – and Anet has spoken, they’ve already introduced this content. Feedback is crucial, but going up in arms about it won’t resolve anything nicely. Just a thought.
Wow. We need more posters like you. Thanks for taking the time to write this, it’s so true it hurts. Rage fests are inevitable among the anonymous masses, but threads like this are like lighthouses amid a dark stormy night.
Relax guys, maybe they have an even bigger bug-fix class-balance dedicated patch on the way? Perhaps this one was focusing on new content, and there is a bigger one coming later.
Optimism might be unrealistic, but it’s much better than just giving in to despair.
It changed to be that way with the patch.
I like the sound of this. Nice theories, and I certainly home they are at least partially accurate. I believe Anet haven’t yet sunk their ship just because of this update – regardless of what the forum goers are trying to say. There’s still time for this to be a very, very good update, rather than the update that kills their game.
Am I missing something? I always thought the patch didn’t come till tomorrow, the 16th. I might just be missing the bold print somewhere, though.
First off, I’m fairly certain that they will raise the cap. But that’s not the question. It’s whether they should.
Honestly, no. Otherwise this becomes WoW – everyone grinds out their max tier armor at level 80 and sits on it for a while to enjoy their rewards. Along the way, an expansion is released, raising the cap and invalidating all they’ve worked for so far, ‘allowing’ them to re-earn new, higher level, max tier gear that will essentially serve the same purpose. And later on another x-pac with a higher cap, etc.
It’s not a good cycle. But it’s probably the one we’re headed for.
I’m sorry to be that guy.
But they won’t implement this compromise, so why bother getting hopes up?
“I like how they laid out their manifesto and stuck to it, it’s really inspiring and instills trust and confidence into their player base.”
I have a feeling Anet won’t cave in to the forums. They’re confident in their plan, whatever that is – it’s for them to know and us to find out, I guess.
Power creep is a way (intentional or not) for developers to stall the player base with meaningless content (not new or innovative content – just more of the same with higher numbers) while they crank out something that is actually new or creative, something that will actually add to or extend the life of the game. It’s a poor way of doing things that lacks imagination and creativity or even effort in most cases – but unfortunately it makes money, and even game companies are businesses. And this is their job, and they’re going to select the best and most efficient routes to get players to purchase their game.
The problem (and reason for) gear tiers is that it introduces more of the same, but with higher numbers. It’s not actually new content – just more. The issue is that this causes lesser armors (that before were perfectly acceptable) to become lackluster and often irrelevant. I hate that – the developer’s own efforts replace and neglect their previous creations.
It’s like erasing a drawing and redoing it rather than creating one big picture with lots of little sketches that make a whole. Again, it’s not new content, just more of the same with higher numbers. Take the Rare tier for example. If Exotics didn’t exist, then Rare would be perfectly acceptable and considered the norm. However, only because Exotic tier does exist, not one person would realistically plan to use Rare armor for the long haul. But they both come at level 80. This makes Rare armor (and tiers under it) pointless. They’re only there so that something else will be made better by comparison.
I think the OP had it right by saying that there really shouldn’t be different tiers of armor at the same level – just level 70 armor, 75, 76, 80, etc.
I suppose this is mindless rambling that won’t change anything, but sometimes it just helps talk to it out I guess. We’re stuck with gear tiers and they are introducing more; we will just have to sit back and see where they take us.
I’m not sure that that post can be applicable to GW2.
But I thoroughly enjoyed that post – if only complaints were hidden under such clever sarcasm in this forum. At least they would be entertaining.
I see where they were going with trying to implement a new mechanic, but as you pointed out, it’s hardly imaginative. It’s like Guild Wars 2 was created out of the pure principles of being challenging, but it is nothing more than the shell of a game that detrimentally lacks a soul. Guild Wars 2 is beginning to feel like a project that is very ambitious, but somehow lacks imagination.
Not sure if that made sense. I’m just disappointed about they way things have gone and are going.
Finally, it does not seem that there are plans for gear beyond this tier, so it’s not a treadmill.
Are you that naïve?
Perhaps he’s optimistic, as I am. I see no point in the excessive whining that currently permeates the forum – let’s ride it out and see where this goes. What if this Ascended Gear is the introduction into the endgame content everyone has been dying for? New, tougher dungeons, items to work for in order to become more adept at tackling those challenges, etc. The best we can hope for is that Ascended will provide this content and that their plans will stop there.
Besides, it would become burdensome if they had to continually create names for the item tiers in a way that progressively sounded better: Rare, Exotic, Ascended, then what?
Yes. On top of this, new fifteen-man dungeons will be released within a week of The Lost Shore and players will be able to join queues that will match them with other players remotely. Each of these new, harder dungeons will provide gear drops that are better than the previous content, invalidating older installations as time goes on. That is what these new items and inscriptions are foreboding, can’t you see it?
…
No. They aren’t coming.
You aren’t the only one, but you are one of the few. Gear in an MMO is a highly, highly controversial topic. Always.
I remember in EQ1 waiting for about half a year as I and hundreds of others were stopped dead in progress on our bugged epic quest line. Or when WoW launched with no real pvp system yet.
We used to be patient. Can learn it again. And hey, no sub here, so it’s no problem to take some time off if you’re frustrated.
Exactly. It’s not that I don’t understand why people aren’t being patient – it is simply that I don’t see a downside to being patient. Why get emotionally traumatized, over a video game, before we really can tell what’s going down?
New content. -> New items. -> Better items. -> Gear treadmill! -> Dev’s Lied! -> Game RUINED! -> No Hope. -> All is lost.
Thought process of the mob right now.
Let’s relax and take a step back. It’s easy to get frustrated. Don’t think I’m not upset just because I’m posting this. I heartily agree that this update is appearing to be a direct contradiction of the basic principles GW2 was founded on. However, that doesn’t mean that flooding the forum with bitterness is going to solve anything. Right now, we are ill-informed.
Sure, we can speculate on the horrors that can (and I’ll admit, appear very likely to) arise out of an update like the one we are faced with. And it’s tough not to scream at the Dev’s and lash out against this seemingly brutal slap to the face. It takes two points to create a line, and in the heat of the moment we quickly extrapolate that, if Point A is the game’s launch status, and Point B is the Lost Shores update, then we are on an endless path that will lead us on a continual treadmill. And again, this reality seems frighteningly feasible right now.
I loved Guild Wars 1. This game is not Guild Wars 1. I think Anet did a great job on their original title, and so far I think they are doing a decent job on Guild Wars 2. It takes time for any MMO to get settled down after launch – sometimes months to a year or even years before the content that eventually defines it is put in place. So, we don’t know yet what Anet’s plan for the big picture is. Sure, Ascended gear is better. And even though it seems nigh impossible, perhaps they will stop there and not implement the ‘dreaded’ treadmill. Maybe they realized that the game lacked a very much needed gap between Exotic and Legendary and that, without this traumatic fix during the first few months, the game would prove lackluster over the course of the next few years without this equipment to bridge the gap.
Plus, the fact that they are only introducing a few pieces during this update guarantees content of future updates. Isn’t that what everyone wanted? I’ve read these forums off and on since release. A week ago this forum was up in arms over their boredom. And now that Anet has declared their solution to the boredom, before it is even released, people are terrified.
I’m not saying that things don’t have a possibility to take a turn for the worse. Indeed, perhaps they already have. Maybe the post I just typed doesn’t really make much sense to the majority and won’t have any impact on anyone. All I’m trying to do is to encourage people – asking them to wait, and see what actually happens versus what everyone fears to happen. For, although things look grim, we don’t know what Anet has in mind beyond this and, as easy as it is to try and guess for ourselves, we should just wait and see before passing such harsh judgement.
TL;DR Let’s weather this storm that rages due to lack of information. Information about Anet’s future plans with this new item and condition type. Perhaps they really do have this all under control. After this update is released and we have a larger picture in view, our judgements will be more informed and viable.
Personally I love the pink color. No matter what is and is not changed, in my opinion they should definitely keep it.
Think of Ascended Armor as Greens from GW1. Slightly better, but Golds (aka Exotic) were often used instead simply due to their ability to be customized. Let’s weather this initial storm of not knowing how this will turn out and then come out afterwards with a true idea of what’s a good or bad idea with the full picture in mind.
I see what you did there.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. Obviously people are going crazy right now, while we don’t have the full picture in view. I’m sure that in time we’ll see that these changes are not going to be nearly as drastic as they seem now.
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