Guild Wars 2

A person can tank a 1v3 endlessly, but not be able to take the 3 down (I also highly doubt there are any builds left that can tank 1v3) as long as they’re not forced to eat his damage or lose. The issue with D/D cele ele was that you either fought on point and died or left and lost (both resulting in a loss). If you look in WvWvW with its muuuuuuch larger zone, you find eles aren’t that big of an issue over there (at least in a 1v1 roaming format).

Btw, before I’m flamed like a good steak, I’m only using pre-nerf ele as an example. I’m not, I REPEAT, I’m NOT calling them OP as they are currently. Pls no flamerino.

Cosbuster.4379:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Expansions simply overtake the main game and become the main game themselves. Sounds legit

Couldn’t have said it better myself. That’s how MMO expansions tend to work, they add new features and completely rebalance everything while the rest of the game becomes an afterthought. When was the last time somebody did Burning Crusade content seriously?

So why call it an expansion at all then? Why not call it a sequel or part 3 of the game? I’ve never played WoW, so I don’t make much of a comment here, but the people I’ve spoken to about it tell me that each xpac brings about a huge amount of power creep. Just because it happened elsewhere doesn’t mean it should happen here.

I mean, the way I see it like is if you “expand” the boundaries of your home by simply adding a few more rooms. The rooms are additions to the house and not the house itself.

Dawdler.8521:

I always find it funny when people talk about sPvP core issues followed by rambling about classes. Last time I checked, the only core issue is … [insert drumroll]… the gameplay mode. The capability of standing on a tiny capping circle drives player vs player balance. Only problem is, its the only place in the game that does this meaning its impossible to balance by class, you will wreck or OP it in other modes.

But I digress. Lets randomly tweak some numbers instead. Its worked great so far, right?

This guy understands.

Cosbuster.4379:

SlayerSixx.5763:

online.1278:

Cosbuster.4379:

It seems like the “pay to win” term is becoming broader and broader. I guess we can start including games like counter-strike, Call of Duty and Rainbow Six in there since in order to win you need to have the game, and in order to have the game, you need to pay so there you go.

that is buy2play, not pay2win

No use posting. These guys think HoT IS the game in its entirety and not simply an addition.

Correct. HoT IS the main game indeed, while the F2P part is the addition, just something extra to grab a few people here and there. Certainly not the other way around.

Because HoT ISN’T an expansion, correct? Expansions simply overtake the main game and become the main game themselves. Sounds legit

online.1278:

Cosbuster.4379:

It seems like the “pay to win” term is becoming broader and broader. I guess we can start including games like counter-strike, Call of Duty and Rainbow Six in there since in order to win you need to have the game, and in order to have the game, you need to pay so there you go.

that is buy2play, not pay2win

No use posting. These guys think HoT IS the game in its entirety and not simply an addition.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Lol.

Just 3?

Try this one… it was fun

So much green, black and conditions. Condition volleyball, anyone?

UmbraNoctis.1907:

SlayerSixx.5763:

[…] it doesn’t change the fact that they’re simply not fun to fight against as a power user.

This is your very personal view, but not a general fact. I don’t mind fighting condi builds with my power ranger, even if i don’t run much condi remove all the time. The build i hate fighting the most is actually a power build (scrapper). Of course some condi builds can be quite annoying, but others can be fun to fight (for me).
Btw, how is a DB/caltrops spamming condi thief much different from a vault/bounding dodger spamming power thief? Attacks with build-in defense are not a condi only feature.

It may be fine to face them in your opinion, but you’ll find many more people who just don’t enjoy facing a condition build. You’re fine with facing them on your power ranger because power ranger is literally LB2 spam until dead. Try playing the game a little longer.

Also, an evade spamming power thief isn’t the same for the following reasons:

- Vault costs more initiative. 2 Vaults vs 3 DBs assuming no trickery.

- Staff is an OK weapon, but D/P is still the strongest weapon set for power thieves which is why I compared D/D to D/P. Hell, you could’ve brought up S/D instead of staff with its teleport, minor condi cleanse, with the evade AND boon steal for the same initiative cost, but that wouldn’t make your point any stronger.

- Power thief relies more on their initiative for defenses vs a condi thief that usually brings some sort of tank stat (vit if carrion, toughness if rabid). If you end up burning through your initiative as a condi thief, you have a slightly larger safety net than a power thief. Also, spamming bound on power thief is a risky move since most power thief builds use withdraw for the evade and rapid repositioning, meaning they can’t bring the daredevil heal since they’ll suffer more if they’re interrupted than a condi thief since, again, the condi thief usually brings better survivability stats.

Condition builds that have a power build that operates similarly (medi zerk vs medi burn, for instance) tend to be much more forgiving to the user simply because condition builds tend to pack higher survivability stats.

@Crinn

Power builds can kill you outright if they land their rotation, but they’re generally at a disadvantage if they miss or have a portion of their combo negated. Taking D/D condi thief as an example again, you either run off point and give it to him or avoid the first two death blossoms and then collapse while still not being able to touch him. Power builds generally tend to have much larger telegraphs to their bursts (thief is the exception here and only if they don’t watch their position when BP>HS).

UmbraNoctis.1907:

SlayerSixx.5763:

[…] it doesn’t change the fact that they’re simply not fun to fight against as a power user.

This is your very personal view, but not a general fact. I don’t mind fighting condi builds with my power ranger, even if i don’t run much condi remove all the time. The build i hate fighting the most is actually a power build (scrapper). Of course some condi builds can be quite annoying, but others can be fun to fight (for me).
Btw, how is a DB/caltrops spamming condi thief much different from a vault/bounding dodger spamming power thief? Attacks with build-in defense are not a condi only feature.

It may be fine to face them in your opinion, but you’ll find many more people who just don’t enjoy facing a condition build. You’re fine with facing them on your power ranger because power ranger is literally LB2 spam until dead. Try playing the game a little longer.

Also, an evade spamming power thief isn’t the same for the following reasons:

- Vault costs more initiative. 2 Vaults vs 3 DBs assuming no trickery.

- Staff is an OK weapon, but D/P is still the strongest weapon set for power thieves which is why I compared D/D to D/P. Hell, you could’ve brought up S/D instead of staff with its teleport, minor condi cleanse, with the evade AND boon steal for the same initiative cost, but that wouldn’t make your point any stronger.

- Power thief relies more on their initiative for defenses vs a condi thief that usually brings some sort of tank stat (vit if carrion, toughness if rabid). If you end up burning through your initiative as a condi thief, you have a slightly larger safety net than a power thief. Also, spamming bound on power thief is a risky move since most power thief builds use withdraw for the evade and rapid repositioning, meaning they can’t bring the daredevil heal since they’ll suffer more if they’re interrupted than a condi thief since, again, the condi thief usually brings better survivability stats.

Condition builds that have a power build that operates similarly (medi zerk vs medi burn, for instance) tend to be much more forgiving to the user simply because condition builds tend to pack higher survivability stats.

^which is why S1 was “rotation mode”? Which is why bunkers (or bruisers) eventually find their way to the top of the meta, regardless of how many changes take place? Anets bashing their head against the wall. There were times where balance was quite nice, but conquest always fosters the most cancerous bunker builds so gameplay eventually stagnates.

The issue with condition specs isn’t really the damage they do or how they apply it. The issue, I believe, is their ability to drop their burst and then basically run in circles until it kills you.

A good example would be D/P power thief vs D/D condi. If we take the most basic D/P combo (BP>HS>Steal>BS) and the basic D/D combo (HS>caltrops>DB>dodge>DB>DB>dodge) we see a few things. First off, the D/P combo is quite telegraphed (the thief wouldn’t have enough time to stack more than a single leap of stealth) meaning he has only a few seconds to land the BS which gives the enemy (assuming they know what they’re doing) more than enough time to do w.e to avoid your damage. The D/D combo, on the other hand, doesn’t deal as much damage upfront, but they’re basically perma invuln doing what they’re doing while still contributing to capture contribution and the like. Unless you’re running a bunker build and are capable of sustaining through their bleed, you’ll lose the point almost all of the time (another reason why conquest is cancer). Most condition builds bring similar kinds of unfun cancerous mechanics (tons of stealth and repositioning on condi cancermes, burn guard makes the innate blocking mechanics on guard even more pronounced, trap ranger has something similar to D/D thief but not as pronounced and much easier to counterplay, etcetcetc). Basically, almost simultaneous attack and defense at the cost of less upfront damage. This is to be expected of an attrition build but, nonetheless, it doesn’t change the fact that they’re simply not fun to fight against as a power user.

Warlord.9074:

Abimes.9726:

since they can’t burst as fast as a power build

I loled at this. Condis can’t burst as fast as a power build? Since when.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rbzknvi6_Q

He should’ve swapped the geomancy sigil for battle at least (not that it would’ve made that much of a difference). Also, if you consider the amount of damage that was done, the shield bash > decapitate did more damage in less time. The burning fury simply did more damage over the duration of the burst.

Warlord.9074:

this is the summery of the entire thread.

I want something for free that other people paid for. Because my free version isn’t as good as the paid version, I am going to make a thread and argue that I deserve to have something for free that others paid for because I am a a member of the entitlement generation.

I will use ANETs old TOS as my talking points that is no longer valid for free users while ignoring the fact that they have every right to change that TOS anytime they want.

I agreed to the current TOS so I don’t really have any case to make my point thanks.

or or or or or…..

Have core be on par with elites? Nobody is asking for free elites (although they should be in sPvP). This thread (and others like it) wouldn’t exist if a majority of good core specs could compete with a majority of the good elites.

I agree that conquest needs to go. At the very most, high level conquest play encourages good rotations and that’s about it. For fun, I got a group of guildies and we all ran the maximum amount of CC and tank, even if it meant hitting like a potato. We played about 7-8 games that night and lost none. We literally ran in circles, out rotating and chaining our knockbacks and basically survived endlessly and kept all the points either perma contested or capped for us. Conquest promotes and encourages boring bunker builds, not actual fighting which is what many fans of PvP enjoy. Conquest reeeealllly needs to go.

GW2 has such a beautiful combat system with great depth. We need to capitalize on this combat (and remove the passives) if we’re to keep the veterans engaged and draw in more newbies. Why do you guys think BnS is so big overseas? Emphasis on combat and nothing else. This may seem bland for most (and it is, somewhat), its obvious that people would rather see some actual mechanical skill in play rather than what’s been going on lately. Waaaay back about a year and a half ago, GW2 used to be about the combat, but changes have made bunkering for days more and more appetizing. They may have removed cele and broke ele/mes, but that isn’t enough (relax, I agree that ele and mes shouldn’t be relegated to potato tier).

I get it that not everyone enjoys MOBAs, but its obvious that the formula they’ve got going on works and works well.

Tl:Dr combatcombatcombatcombat

runeblade.7514:

Warlord.9074:

Varonth.5830:

Warlord.9074:

it’s not p2w its b2p and you are playing a limited version for free and are complaining, bcuz the rest of us that started before you had to buy the game to play it unlike you.

that being said the issue is that eletes were not what anet promised. ANET promised them to be builds or extensions of base specs that were supposed to offer diversity and not be stronger than base. Instead they were upgrades.

be lucky you don’t have to buy the game twice like we did.

What do you say about players like me, who have the expansion, and still complain that the elite specs are pay 2 win?

What is your argument for me?

Id say thats like we are into racing and both our cars are on the same level and you thing that a honda civic with the only modifications it has are stickers that say fast should be able to compete with our Nissan GTRs. We let the honda owner into our car club becasue its a community, Id say you try to play devils advocate just for the sake or arguing when you have no point.

That made zero sense.

This.

@people thinking I don’t have the xpac….

I do. I was also playing since release. I just don’t enjoy the power creep brought about by the xpac and its practically impossible to get friends to try the game since nobody wants to feel like they’ve been forced to pay to have fun. Its alright though guys, keep playing the role of ANets white knights. Its obvious they don’t read/care for the forums when there are plenty more people like you who are OK with this.

Alekt.5803:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Zuik.7158:

My friends, I’m sure that I do not only speak for myself when I say that I am tired of seeing Jesus on a cross because he has no access to stability.

The time has come to buff Jesus.

But Jesus has a perma stealthed chrono ressing him. He didn’t come back a third time cuz they were nerfed and the res taking forever now.

I thought he also had a permanent Sneak Gyro. Anyone saw him recently?

Normally, you would find him by following the sneak gyro, but Satan hid the gyro in more stealth so the people can’t find him at all.

Certain core specs ARE strong, but (with the exception of berserker) all of elites are almost direct upgrades to their respective classes.

It seems nobody remembers anet’s promise. Oh well, boys. By the way, bringing up armor or level cap isn’t even remotely viable in…..sPvP. We’re still all on the same page in this regard, no?

Well, two things.

1. I agree that the conditions are out of hand and I’ve, personally, never liked them.

2. The necro was an issue, but the thief is veeeeeeeeeeery counterable. Since you know the thief is there, no need to waste your mobility rushing over there. Get on the point, at this point, he’ll waste his initiative/dodges/caltrops (if he has them, watching on my phone so I can’t see for sure). At this point, you simply walk off point, cleanse w.e condi you’ve suffered, and the thief will have absolutely nothing in the ways of pressure that can force you back onto the defense. Its obvious that he’s pretty bad too, considering he burned steal when he could’ve easily just walked up to the downed dude and did quite a bit of keyboard turning (smells of pve hero). Also, engaging him at range is also a viable strategy, considering how his gapclosers on D/D either cost initiative (less flip spam) or a 20s+CD (assuming traited steal). You could’ve more than easily taken him down with your staff and smoke if you kited him off point, since you lack the CC to effectively force him off for the decap and all of his evades still count as him being on the point (i.e. no point face tanking him on point if you can’t do any real pressure for at least a few seconds until he burns his resources like an idiot).

Either way, I do agree that it is a brainless spec, but its a brainless spec for brainless players. Let the nabs have their fun and counter them ez.

Zuik.7158:

My friends, I’m sure that I do not only speak for myself when I say that I am tired of seeing Jesus on a cross because he has no access to stability.

The time has come to buff Jesus.

But Jesus has a perma stealthed chrono ressing him. He didn’t come back a third time cuz they were nerfed and the res taking forever now.

The game has the mechanics in place for good players to outplay others. They simply need to tone down singular skill burst and sustain options and make both DPS and sustain/support require combos. Make it so that a major source of healing should come from comboing with a water field, or burst combos require setup like shatter mesmer does. Less stealth or less stealth burst. Better primary game mode. More emphasis on active defenses instead of passive loltraits. Less invulnerabilities (not that there’s much left anymore anyways). The list goes on and on. Until anet creates emphasis on outplaying your opponent and making a game mode that fosters actual tactical awareness (rotating shouldn’t be the only game mode related bit of skill required to play at a high level) the PvP will never become a serious e-sport (or a good game at all).

Firebird.8324:

How about the fact Scrapper has more swiftness than Jesus, more quickness that Jesus, more Stealth than thieves, errrh, I mean Jesus, more fury than jesus, more blocking than jesus, more toughness than jesus, more cc than jesus, wow, this list just keeps GOING!

What if, and bear with me on this one, what if scrapper IS the Jesus profession? He works miracles by facetanking 2 or more players while sharing all of the glorious blessings (boons) with his team and shining the light (reveal) upon allies and enemies alike whilst casting a veil of protection to keep them hidden (stealth gyro) from the eyes of Satan and his followers all while sending his angels (function gyro) to assist his fallen allies during the heat of battle to grant them salvation.

Condi’s are cheesy because they’re generally attrition builds. Because of these people running around with similar tank to a bunker and similar damage (notice I didn’t call it DPS or burst), it is rather boring to face them (imagine cele ele minus the healing, more condition damage and higher tank stats).

That being said, pure zerk gets cheesy very quickly as well because of classes that can either setup untelegraphed bursts (out of stealth) or set them up from behind walls with teleports and the like.

Pure bunker is rather boring as well, as I’m sure you can imagine, because 15 minutes of invulnerability is also rather boring.

Honestly, anet has poor game designers. I’d make suggestions, but I’m no game designer either. There are issues in with the primary game mode, in traits, in amulets, and so and so forth. People should either take the game as it is or simply leave, I fear, since anet has proven time and time again that they’re incapable of engaging game design.

Saiyan.1704:

“Technically every MMORPG in the history of ever was ‘Pay to Win’ due to the newly added Levels, Gear, Etc.. from expansions.”

Some one already said it… it’s not Pay to Win if it’s new content from an expansion. It’s expected.

GW2 is not pay to win… definitely not like other TRUE P2W games out there. How is this even an argument?

New content doesn’t always have to equate to more power. Anet promised SIDEgrades, not upgrades. New ways to play =/= power creep. Such a simple concept, my man.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Complaining over a game that is p2w or not is like admitting you dont know if the game is a business….
At least the xpac is relatively cheap. There are way worse contenders out there, so yeah, you should count yourself lucky. Also you dont have to pay repetitively to stay on top.

The only fair argument in favour of HoT’s power creep so far.

I get that it isn’t expensive, it just shouldn’t be the way it is in sPvP. Especially since it really detracts from the fun for both parties. I don’t feel any sort of accomplishment when I’m on my dragon hunter and win a 2v1 vs two core players. I don’t feel any sort of accomplishment for escaping a near death situation on my thief thanks to unhindered spam. The list goes on, but I’m sure you understand.

FJSAMA.2867:

Again, all you guys are asking compensations for dmg nerf
Mirror blade didnt get any compensation whatsoever….. But they probabily can give you 5% attack speed on scepter…

Just saying…

A projectile speed buff to scepter would actually be nice.

Silv.9207:

If I spend 45€ to buy a expansion I’m rewarded by something a little strongher than what there was before.

Like I said, you’re making this too easy.

Also, I bought game since it launched and also have HoT. I expected sidegrades, not upgrades. The stupid amounts of power creep brought about by this mess made me all but quit since about mid December.

To clarify, I’m a paying customer and I still don’t like how there’s so much power in the elites that doesn’t exist in the base. Its an expansion, not the base game. Expansion, as in an addition. You can’t expand upon nothing. The base game is the core and should be where most of the meat is at, not the other way around.

If it were at all possible, I’d like to see two equally skilled players go head to head on w.e class they prefer with one guy having access to all 5 core lines and the other guy just using the one elite line and the elite utilities. That’d make for an interesting show.

Also, don’t bring WvWvW into this as if it validates your point. WvWvW fights happen across a huuuuge area with a lot more terrain, obstacles, and people. You’d never take a thief crying about being unviable in a mass WvWvW skirmish seriously, so why would you use it as an example in any other non-WvWvW related case?

Kodama.6453:

Pollux.2346:

Rezzet.3614:

hits as hard as Gun Flame
Pierces
Unblockable
4s cd
1200 range

Should we make warriors Kill Shot no longer require adrenaline and have 5 second cooldown too?

Facts are Facts True Shot is a tad overpowered

Breaking news! True shot is unblockable! You do not even know how the skill work but hate that. It’s great!

I don’t get it, why is everyone saying this? Everyone can see the skill facts in the wiki, there is no note it would be unblockable. Why is this rumor so persistent?

They’re probably confusing LB3 for true shot.

Silv.9207:

Is actually easier win if you have the Expansion? Yes.
The Expansion grant you things that are better than the old game version? Yes.
Is a thing that if you have to buy to have? Yes (but if you buy the game now you will have it directly without any other costs)

But in what game a Expansion have not granted to the owners of it (more or less 95% of the players of that game) better things than the old version?

Honestly, you’re making this too easy. Think before you post lol.

Silv.9207:

An Expansion can make you obtain things better than the Old accounts

Thank you for agreeing.

Saiyan.1704:

Rezzet.3614:

Kuya.6495:

It’s hard to justify complaining about true shot when the tell for it is pretty obvious and it carries no special particle effects that can obscure what the DH is doing.

He’s falling on his knees and he’s charging. That means it’s time to dodge and or pop a block.

warriors have a skill that does exactly the same and yet it requires 3 adrenaline bars filled and has a 15 second cooldown so what exactly justifies true shot having a 4 second cooldown ?

When we’re barely winning 1v1 fights and barely surviving heavy focused TPvP fights.

Because warriors are dominating duels, right?

Alekt.5803:

Did I just catch you having fun in HotM?

Gigiobalt.7625:

they know nothing about PvP* at all…

This.

Let’s not forget that this is the same company that created wildstar. You’d think they would’ve learned from their mistakes after killing off an entire game.

League of legends, a far more established game, doesn’t have things like this. I’m not saying its a bad tool, but I doubt that we could justify the amount if time and money it would take to develop something like this.

yLoon.5289:

What BS is this OP talking about.

What about thief Vault and Bounding Dodger?
Dodge while in the same time doing one hit KO?

He didn’t say those skills were OK either.

Simply put? It isn’t fair or balanced. Now that energy sigil has been nerfed, you either need a ton of evades or a ton of active defenses to avoid it. If at all possible, take advantage of the ample amounts of long ranged CC on mes to take advantage of long(ish) cast time and apply counter pressure so he doesn’t just get to free fire his shots.

Why would it be impossible? Different classes exist in the game that have been, at one point or another, almost balanced. The elites were STATED to provide alternate play styles. Making it possible to basically play my DH as a ranger with over 10s of immobilize, 2 pulls, 2 knockdowns, and a root with almost 10s of block time while sporting almost 20k HP and still hitting true shots for around 7k shouldn’t be possible (not arguing that DH is OP, just that its far superior to core guard).

Speaking of guardian, a simple balance without a huuuge rework would be to simply buff scepter AA speed and reduce the amount of hits it would take to do smite’s full damage. That’d give core guard a decent ranged weapon. While this wouldn’t put it 100% on par with longbow, one could argue that the fact that you can combine scepter with another off hand for more versatility. Its simple things like these that would give core specs a real kickstart. While I’m sure other classes might have much more issues in their core specialization other than just slow AAs, I’m simply not that well versed enough in those classes to create an in depth and meaningful suggestion for them.

I don’t know at this point, though. It seems as if anet is totally fine with everyone, including some of their top players, being dissatisfied with balance while leaving another portion happy instead of aiming to simply leave both sides content. Could simply be that a lot of us who’re complaining played the game at times when it was better than this and just felt like voicing our opinions.

Coulter.2315:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Nobody is against expansions giving alternate forms of play. People are expansions giving, in many cases, direct boosts to power. Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep? Are you honestly OK with the ludicrous imbalance even among the elite specializations?

Lol look at you trying to reframe the debate to “Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep?” No one on your side or our side has mentioned the concept of power creep, you are upset about a negative difference between Core and HoT – power creep is irrelevant to this and has occured with or withoout HoT.

Nice try attempting to say “you’re just like kitten” though in other words, lol “bashing the people who are against power creep” such nonsense xD

Power creep is bad => people who are against it are good (You pretended everyone on your side were here) => people bashing those people are bad (This means the people who disagree with you are here, oh no the bad people are here eeep)

^ This was the fraudulent chain of logic you wanted to evoke, just pointing it out so everyone sees through you.

The debate was and still is whether or not HoT is pay to win. You said that it was OK for the elite specs to be stronger because they’re part of the expansion. Its only fair, then, to assume that you’re OK with the subsequent power creep. The power creep, regardless of how you see it, isn’t OK for the game.

Paying to win is power creep in its dirtiest form, since its also hidden behind a paywall, but this OK since they called it an expansion, no? The base game has suddenly become a demo and HoT is now the real game, not an addition.

I’m not pretending people are on my side. You’ll find that a majority of the people still playing PvP are HoT owners, therefore you don’t find much argument there. You (and the people supporting the idea that HoT isn’t P2W) have stated that you’re OK with the power creep. I will state, again, that power creep isn’t good for any game and you’ll find many people who would agree with it, regardless of whether or not the creep was hidden behind a paywall.

Honestly, I don’t understand how anyone could be OK with that. I’m a HoT owner as well, mind you. After playing for a few weeks after HoT dropped, I couldn’t even bother to stomache how warped the game became compared to what it used to be. I’m not against changes of classes, gameplay, or meta, but I am against having the changes devolve the game into a spamfest of passives and conditions. I mean, I don’t even know why I’m posting here anymore tbh. Anet seemed to think that a good fix for thief was buffing #1 and giving them an elixir S passive, as if that makes acro worth it or that an extra 20 HPS would give warrior the kick in the kitten it needed to get moving. Oh well, man. Enjoy the power creep.

Nobody is against expansions giving alternate forms of play. People are expansions giving, in many cases, direct boosts to power. Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep? Are you honestly OK with the ludicrous imbalance even among the elite specializations?

Just double checking. So you guys are OK and expect elites to be far superior to be the core classes because they cost money?

Browrain.7346:

Someday.3650:

Browrain.7346:

Why do you feel like you need to counter someone?

Because the game was designed around hard counters for each class.

Do you know this for a fact or are you guessing to further your argument?

For any class to be meta (or at least viable), they have to fulfill a few of these points:

Can hold a point vs pressure.

Good mobility.

Good damage.

A special mechanic that allows them to counter any build that fits 2 or more of the three previously mentioned requirements. For example, you could still bring necro even before 6/23 to counter eles even though it wasn’t optimal.

Ele seems to have neither good damage or sustain since they lack any reasonable active defense. As for primarily countering another type of build….. You see where I’m getting at. To give you a little further understanding of the situation, thief had good damage/mobility pre patch, but they couldn’t find a spot in the meta since their damage didn’t matter. Ele, currently, has less mobility than thief, less damage than thief, less sustain than thief (thief can camp stealth with traited SA for adequate healing/condi cleanse). Now you’ll probably ask why I’m comparing ele to thief. Simply put, as far as I know, the best ele build currently is S/F FA. FA is a weaker version of thief in almost every aspect.

Spooky scary skeletons.

sPvP should be split from the rest of the game regardless, but oh well.

kdaddy.5431:

and now thieves back stab for 9k

Just wanted to mention that thieves could always hit 9k back stabs. They just couldn’t up until now because of all of the protection and other defenses flying around.

Sunshine.5014:

zinkz.7045:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

No, it’s cute how YOU don’t realize that balance or class design does not matter in pve.

Clueless…

But let’s forget that and concentrate on what you keep avoiding, other than guard, thief and maybe engy, over the last three years ele has faired better in PvP than the other classes, that is the reality as opposed to your deluded tear filled fantasy of the plight of ele in PvP over the life of this game.

Ridiculous logic.

It’s like you say in the last 500 years, Caucasians have faired much better than their dark skin neighbors. Now let’s give them an extra 25% tax, nerf them to the ground because they were good before.

The goal is to make the current system fair. It doesn’t matter if Ele was good before or not.

This.

At at the end of the day, its a video game. Why are people getting up in arms about their classes like they were their family? They feel that their angst towards the class justifies their desire to want to see it needed into the ground.

That being said, this salt is tre amusing :^).

Lol, aggro the DH and reaper NPC while running circles. Best way to test a bunker build.

There’s a reddit subforum with exactly this, if I’m not mistaken.

Ohoni.6057:

This is fine for a normal game, but anet has e-sports aspirations.

Most sports involve having to pay for basic tools. Haven’t you ever watched one of those “scrappy underdogs” sports movies? One of the first steps is that they get sponsorship for better gear. I really don’t see how anyone would be so foolish as to consider “paying for the existing core game” as somehow “excessive.”

Everyone having access to everything was their goal until HoT.

Yes, but prior to HoT, the core game required an initial purchase. Now it’s free. “Buying HoT” is now merely comparable to the original “buying the core game” buy-in to the system. I would recommend checking out the lyrics to the song “No Scrubs,” by TLC. I think you might find it educational.

That’s the issue. Buying HoT is NOT comparable to the base game since HoT is an expansion as in an addition. The base game is the base game. You can play GW2 with simply the base game. You cannot play HoT without the base game. I still don’t see how them calling HoT an expansion and them breaking the content up and selling it in the gem store could be any different. On one hand, you’re all fixated on calling it THE GAME. Had it been sold in the gem store in portions, what would’ve been your response?

And to the “considerate” gentlemen posting above me, I bought the base game since launch and also purchased HoT, so I’m no freeloader ;D.

Did you read my post all the way to the end?

This is fine for a normal game, but anet has e-sports aspirations. Naturally, this dream is faaaaaar from becoming a reality, but the simplest step (which they’ve been doing up until HoT), is keeping sPvP equalized. Everyone having access to everything was their goal until HoT. Now, they’ve dropped that (apparently), and want to market their game as a competitive e-sport when its obvious that the better player might not always win simply because the other guy shelled out some dollars. People are mad because they were told to compete and then told after they’ve become invested in the game (within any capacity) that they’ll be handicapped until they pay.

At its base without any serious competition? This is fine, I suppose. Not fun, but fine. In a competitive environment? Unacceptable.

Coulter.2315:

SlayerSixx.5763:

foxcat.4096:

SlayerSixx.5763:

You need to buy something to remain relevant. That is literally the definition of P2W. The elites are clearly better than the core classes and are locked behind a pay wall, therefore it is pay to win. Why are you still trying to argue?

The game is buy to play if you wan’t the full game you gotta buy it ,if you don’t want to fine but you cant cry when you have less options than the person who payed for the full game.

This is an expantion pack. As in an addition to the base game. As in not the base game. You would’ve had a point if it was an intrinsic part of the base game, but it isn’t.

Can you name me an MMO expansion pack that doesn’t expand the skill set or power level of those who get it?

So you’re admitting that the expansion makes the people who purchased the expansion more powerful. This vs cash shop micro transactions differ how? They could’ve just as easily broken the elites into their respective bundles and tossed them into the gem store and split the price up accordingly. The end result? The same as what we have now. The difference? The method of acquisition. Are you guys honestly going to argue semantics? The end result is that you have a power advantage over people playing the core game.

So every expansion that increases power, in a competitive environment, is pay to win lmao. It isn’t a difficult concept to grasp.

foxcat.4096:

SlayerSixx.5763:

You need to buy something to remain relevant. That is literally the definition of P2W. The elites are clearly better than the core classes and are locked behind a pay wall, therefore it is pay to win. Why are you still trying to argue?

The game is buy to play if you wan’t the full game you gotta buy it ,if you don’t want to fine but you cant cry when you have less options than the person who payed for the full game.

This is an expantion pack. As in an addition to the base game. As in not the base game. You would’ve had a point if it was an intrinsic part of the base game, but it isn’t.