Guild Wars 2

Coulter.2315:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Coulter.2315:

SlayerSixx.5763:

If this isn’t pay to win, I’m not sure what is.

I know.

Here is a talk from a manager of Battlefield Heroes and a fascinating look at them converting to pay2win. Its genuinely interesting and even has real insight on forums users like us and outrage on the issue (I won’t spoil the ending).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_2sGk7Uwe8

Worth a watch even just to learn a bit more about gamers and forums as well as actual pay2win system.

Also if we use your definition of ‘pay2win’ then EVERY game with an expansion pack falls into that category making the term meaningless.

It is what it is. Unless you want to assign a fixed price point that decides when games become P2W, then it’ll essentially make every DLC/xpac that provides noticeable bonuses to the paying user vs a user without that P2W.

Also, please don’t bring up BFH. I played that game for 3 years and it hurt my soul what EA did to such a golden game. Hell, I dreamt that another company took the rights to the game and relaunched it back into its glory days, then I woke up and cried.

HoT isn’t giving you tear dreams though, its just an expansion pack. It doesn’t make you into a monthly subscriber to keep an advantage or let you spend ludicrous amounts of money to generate massive advantages (Diablo 3 money store would be an example of that).

That video was very informative and confirms alot of what I believed. I will favourite it and come back to it a few times.

Let me tell you a little about BFH. BFH didn’t require for you to pay tons of cash to compete. One really special loadout for me was my soldier’s loadout. BFH has three classes. You had the heavy and slow gunner that generally dominated close quarter engagements. There was also the commando, a squishy, stealthy assassin type that either excelled at super long range with rifles or lick-your-back melee range with their knives. Then you had soldiers who basically worked best at mid range and had very little defense against vehicles. With a very specific loadout, soldier could dominate close quarters like a gunner, dominate super long range and super close range like a commando, AND reliably destroy vehicles. All of this coupled with soldier’s base abilities allowed me to simply carry vs almost entire teams of similarly skilled players with relative ease. I also forgot to mention that a weapon from this loadout also allowed me to scale entire buildings in a single blast of its alternate fire. All of this cost less than 20$ and was permanent. This is me paying for a ridiculous advantage for the price of what? 2-3 full meals depending on where you live. It doesn’t matter how much you pay. The fact that you’re paying for advantage is enough. ANet straight up lied when they called the elites side grades and you want to know something? I’m certain everyone knew that and didn’t care. I’m not complaining about why they added what they added. I’m just here to state that this is, indeed, pay to win.

Coulter.2315:

SlayerSixx.5763:

If this isn’t pay to win, I’m not sure what is.

I know.

Here is a talk from a manager of Battlefield Heroes and a fascinating look at them converting to pay2win. Its genuinely interesting and even has real insight on forums users like us and outrage on the issue (I won’t spoil the ending).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_2sGk7Uwe8

Worth a watch even just to learn a bit more about gamers and forums as well as actual pay2win system.

Also if we use your definition of ‘pay2win’ then EVERY game with an expansion pack falls into that category making the term meaningless.

It is what it is. Unless you want to assign a fixed price point that decides when games become P2W, then it’ll essentially make every DLC/xpac that provides noticeable bonuses to the paying user vs a user without that P2W.

Also, please don’t bring up BFH. I played that game for 3 years and it hurt my soul what EA did to such a golden game. Hell, I dreamt that another company took the rights to the game and relaunched it back into its glory days, then I woke up and cried.

Listen, unless you can bring up an official definition by a trusted organization, using your definition of P2W is about as valid as anyone else’s. Pay to win means paying for something that allows you to win. You can win with core specs, sure, but not against an opponent of equal skill using an elite spec. You can bleat on about how us youngins need to tighten our bootstraps and march forever onwards just because you did it in the past, but that doesn’t mean that times don’t change. The fact of the matter is that the complainers are people who still love/like the game and don’t want to feel forced to shell out dollars to compete in NORMAL parts of the game. It isn’t as if elites only exist in the “e-sports” realm. If this was the case, nobody could argue since every major sport requires some sort of purchase to participate (buying equipment, renting practice spaces, etc). Unfortunately, to enjoy the game at its base requires a purchase which is offputting for many people, F2P and game veterans alike. If this isn’t pay to win, I’m not sure what is.

You need to buy something to remain relevant. That is literally the definition of P2W. The elites are clearly better than the core classes and are locked behind a pay wall, therefore it is pay to win. Why are you still trying to argue?

Just going to copy-paste this to every thread like this.

So being locked out of entire trait lines AND WEAPONS (you forgot the part where elites also give you access to, in some cases, stronger weapons for that class) isn’t pay to win.

Sound logic there, OP.

You may not have to pay hundreds of dollars, but paying for advantage is paying for advantage. No way to try and justify it in any other way.

Rezzet.3614:

it just hasnt realized its dead

Can we just stop to appreciate this?

So being locked out of entire trait lines AND WEAPONS (you forgot the part where elites also give you access to, in some cases, stronger weapons for that class) isn’t pay to win.

Sound logic there, OP.

Edit: Trying to excuse HoT as not a form of P2W and then bringing up mobas is a veeeery bad (and incorrect) example. DOTA requires literally no purchases (everything is cosmetic, good ole valve). LoL does allow you to purchase champs with money, but those can be acquired for free AND don’t require that ridiculous of a grind either (if you aren’t on a ridiculious losing streak, that is). You can argue balance issues, but players at the very least, have options to deal with their counters. How does an ele fight a reaper? They don’t. How did pre-nerf warrior fight anything meta? They didn’t. How do non-druid rangers 1v1 anything? They don’t.

In league (since I have some experience there), there is no foolproof build or champion. Some are definitely strong in certain situations, but if you have enough knowledge, you can turn terrible matchups into something manageable. Dr. Mundo is a good example of this. Huge lane bully with a metric fkton of sustain. Hard to CC him late game and even harder to outright kill him. He also has a low CD poke that deals a %of the target’s missing health. All painful stuff. How do teams deal with him (assuming he wasn’t banned outright during the draft)? Quite simple. Either you pick another champion with good sustain (Nasus loves Mundo) and out scale the ever loving crap out of him by passively farming and lane manipulation or have your jungler pull off one or two ganks and simply snowball from there. If none of this works, you can always keep the feeding to a minimum and stall him (can be achieved with a split pusher) by making it impossible for him to roam. If he roams and you’re playing a powerful split pusher, simply steamroll your lane. Assuming your jungler completely ignored you and left you to rot, he should’ve been creating an imbalance elsewhere meaning Mundo would simply run into either a fed ADC (vayne is very good against HP tanks) or a fed assassin both of whom are capable of outright annihilating him 1v1 or simply forcing him away from the fight repeatedly.

All of these options vs what is currently the strongest champion in the game. Can you honestly try to compare mobas to this mess?

Snorcha.7586:

honestly who cares? – This game is so far gone I’d be embarrased to call myself a “pro” player.

^this.

Sure, ANet almost never gets it right, but the game is far from dying.

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

online.1278:

Super OP : Rev, necro
Bit OP : engi, guardian, ranger
Normal :Ele, mes
Weak :Warrior, thief

Thanks, I needed a chuckle this morning.

Has it been already been 24 hours since the patch dropped? My goodness, you were late with the OP post. Should’ve made on as soon as patch dropped.

At least you’d have a quick escape to a known safe zone.

Aylpse.6280:

The real chaos to enjoy is the fourms.

Rekt.5360:

Dahkeus.8243:

He’s just salty because they didn’t change portal to warn you when you’re at the wrong lord. ~.^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0HCg63Dvyw

AHAHAHAHA LOL wait, that’s not all though you forgot the best parts: “You are so stuped” and “Guys remember dis moment…pliz” Proceeds to mute LOL

The silence spoke volumes in the clip.

Gunna have to wait a few months, OP.

It isn’t exactly that GW2 isn’t consistent (league goes through a TON of meta shifts through item removals, overhauls, champ reworks, new champs, new objectives, etc). Its just that every time GW2 gets a rework, its never right. I’m not going to complain about how each meta always excludes a few classes each time, but I will say that the reward for skilled play is less and less noticeable as time goes on. Again (I’ll be making a lot of league references), league is a team game, but every player in the match has the chance to shine on their own pull some pretty insano plays (even supports).

Honestly, we could break down all of the differences between GW2 and league (or mobas in general), but I’ll keep it short and simple…..

Get rid of conquest. For the love of god, get rid of it. Courtyard was a slaughterfest with no real game flow. Stronghold can easily be won without interacting with the mist champions meaning teams have very little reason to interact with each other. Defenders (outside of the lord room) have very little bonuses to help them defend. In league, teams that fall in line fast enough to defend are capable of defending their base through more powerful base turrets, their spawn nearby for healing, and the minions. Should a team be defending too tightly and are simply biding their time until they can make an equalizing play, the winning team can further increase their strength by either split pushing another lane or taking advantage of the minibosses that spawn that grant the team that killed them further power that might allow them to break through the defending team’s defenses. Conquest, while promoting good rotations, is simply devoid of any real depth. The auxiliary map objectives either grant negligible bonuses (its usually best to leave things like treb and beasts alone) or are simply too good (lord rush at 350 and skyhammer). Dying means very little, there is no build up to plays. If one team simply holds two points and keeps deaths to a minimum, they’ll eventually win (which is why bunkers became progressively worse over time until they peaked and were crushed today).

Games like league have build ups for plays. Making aggressive plays to net a kill so you can force your opponent out of lane and shove the wave into their turret to further snowball your lead by denying your enemy gold or playing defensively and freezing the lane ever so perfectly so your jungler can come for the gank while you then proceed to snowball your lead, but while your jungler is ganking, the enemy jungler could be stealing objectives, counter jungling, gank another lane themselves, or slip in and turn the gank into a very bad situation by counterganking and netting their team a lead they can snowball. While all of this is happening, top lane could be teleporting to the bottom lane for a 3v2 tower dive because the enemy jungler can’t come in to intercept and the lead is essentially equalized. Note that I don’t have a 100% grasp (or even 50 if I’m entirely honest), but the point is the game is incredibly complex with many possibilities for games to play out. Conquest/Stronghold simply do not provide us the complexity and depth for plays that is required of a game that aspires to go big. Sports like soccer and basketball, while they haven’t changed much from their initial iteration, also have a ridiculous amount of depth to them from team wide plays to individual skill.

Idk tbh. GW2 needs to become an entirely different game for it to become anything remotely competitive. I always thought WvWvW should be getting more attention and could possibly carve a very sweet spot out for GW2 competitively.

MyPuppy.8970:

SlayerSixx.5763:

You’re probably off on your timing, but I’m certain if he cycles his defenses and uses his trap heal efficiently, he can stay topped up quite often vs less experienced players.

Well I can’t be too sure, I was looking from afar. He didn’t seem to kill anyone though, looked more like a troll build to me. I did not exagerate my estimations of his raw healing cycles though. From 10% to 80% every few seconds. I watched for maybe 20s and he did that like 4-5 times, so I wondered if there was some build allowing that much raw healing uptime. Maybe some build with low vit and very high healing power with well timed blocks/invulns.

I’m betting it was probably just that, a troll meditrap bunker build.

You’re probably off on your timing, but I’m certain if he cycles his defenses and uses his trap heal efficiently, he can stay topped up quite often vs less experienced players.

^proof, please.

Riranor.6315:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Lol i also saw a few times people on my team, an engi it was, he teleported straight from close to far. Was hilarious. Didnt report it because he was on my team so i figured he was helping us win so it was ok

Report him still, even if it’s after the match. You wouldn’t like it if he faced you in the future multiple times and you could’ve gotten him banned sooner.

And fell for the bait. Hook, line, and sinker.

Zodryn.4216:

MyPuppy.8970:

SlayerSixx.5763:

MyPuppy.8970:

Shirlias.8104:

To me reading the small map is a bit hard ( class icons are way to large tbh ).

Not indicating mesmer clones would be a HUGE qol improvement. If we know there’s a mesmer, we know there are clones, no need to cluster the minimap anymore.

To add to that, not indicating which is the real mesmer when they use their downed stealth would be an even better QoL fix for mesmer. As it is (and has been), there’s really no point producing a clone since there’s still a big red arrow over the real one.

I agree.

Doesn’t actually matter. The real one always appears second. I didn’t even notice the arrow for the longest time. They’d need to remove the arrow and make the clone appear at the same time as the Mesmer.

Or they could make it random. One time, its the clone that spawns first and, in another instance, the real mes spawns first.

Rip, should’ve just cleaved them both.

I don’t think thieves should be trying to do any direct trades with anyone, especially vs other power builds.

The issue is that GW2 was originally made with active defenses in mind. No dedicated healer meant you had to use your blocks, dodges, invulns, reflects, etc to survive. Protection, also, didn’t have such a disgusting uptime as it does now. If they increased the effectiveness of toughness, you WOULDVE had people just throw up all of the toughness gear and take 0 damage while some auxiliary form of attack that doesn’t rely too much on your damage stats does all of the work for you. It’d basically be another passive form of defense in a game that used to promote active defense.

Sometimes they’re in a hurry and were caught up in the heat of the fight. If they do that in a 1v1……lol.

Kayberz.5346:

Alekt.5803:

If pets are doing so much from the result of hitting (Bristle being ranged; Smokescale having a blink attack), maybe the other pets should be have reworks to get to their level.

Hmm lets see, whats a more reasonable approach, rework about 30-40 different pets OR rework just 2?

How about rework ranger, remove pets and bring them back as an elite.

Burtnik.5218:

I cant w8 for patch tomorrow.. popcorn is ready. For me it will be between continue playing gw2 or move out completely to Smite and keep trolling forum.

It’ll be league for me. Welcome to the club m8.

Yup, I actually considered mastering some cheese meta build and aiming for that cash. Who knows, someone has to win it right?

I already have my oil, lighters, sticks, and popcorn. Ready to raise hell.

Source?

/15char

Sarlack.4096:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Sarlack.4096:

Too Funny…I main a Ranger….I do run Bristleback as well as a River Drake…I do more damage with the Drake than the Bristle yet all are here complaining about the new Pet. I have yet to hit for over 15K with the Bristle but routinely line up Drakes for that much….and the Drake is an AE Tailswipe NOT single target…Drake is also their normal attack and not the F2 (hint: more to a pet than the F2)

See Sig for Vid of Drake in action…

And yes, I played my current build/spec to Diamond in Ranked with similar results…

Tail swipe isn’t ranged.

True, but I didn’t realize ranged was a required criteria in this thread, also TS is a Single Hit…yes can be countered but unloads WAY more damage in a single hit.

Shadow is annoying because UA is annoying (and the unlockable knockdown).

Bristle is doubly annoying because its basically a sentry gun.

Sure, drake does some serious damage, but its not like the other two.

Floplag.4032:

Kayberz.5346:

If you druid players were as skilled as you seem to believe you are then you shouldnt have a problem being able to win without bristleback doing a majority of your damage, you have like 30 other pets that never get used anymore because of this pet, and your going to try and pretend that bristleback is balanced?

So many biased bads its not even funny.

lolololol This is about the most idiotic comment ive ever read. I literally don’t even know where to start on this one so ill just lol and move on.

- dude brings up reasonable comment.

- bad in denial calls it idiotic.

- all is the same in the universe.

MyPuppy.8970:

Shirlias.8104:

To me reading the small map is a bit hard ( class icons are way to large tbh ).

Not indicating mesmer clones would be a HUGE qol improvement. If we know there’s a mesmer, we know there are clones, no need to cluster the minimap anymore.

To add to that, not indicating which is the real mesmer when they use their downed stealth would be an even better QoL fix for mesmer. As it is (and has been), there’s really no point producing a clone since there’s still a big red arrow over the real one.

MyPuppy.8970:

Shirlias.8104:

To me reading the small map is a bit hard ( class icons are way to large tbh ).

Not indicating mesmer clones would be a HUGE qol improvement. If we know there’s a mesmer, we know there are clones, no need to cluster the minimap anymore.

To add to that, not indicating which is the real mesmer when they use their downed stealth would be an even better QoL fix for mesmer. As it is (and has been), there’s really no point producing a clone since there’s still a big red arrow over the real one.

GW2 is a third person MMO. Not that I’m against any indicators, but I doubt its very high on anets list, if at all.

Sarlack.4096:

Too Funny…I main a Ranger….I do run Bristleback as well as a River Drake…I do more damage with the Drake than the Bristle yet all are here complaining about the new Pet. I have yet to hit for over 15K with the Bristle but routinely line up Drakes for that much….and the Drake is an AE Tailswipe NOT single target…Drake is also their normal attack and not the F2 (hint: more to a pet than the F2)

See Sig for Vid of Drake in action…

And yes, I played my current build/spec to Diamond in Ranked with similar results…

Tail swipe isn’t ranged.

If you’re running condi mes, I’ll assume you have access to adequate AoE.

If 1v1:

Is the point capped for your team? Bombard the point. If the enemy is melee, they’ll either chase after you to get the kill or simply decap it and die. You’ll quickly re-cap and now the enemy team is down one player. If the enemy is ranged, you’ll have to dance around the point and let there be as little comfort as possible as to shove your opponent off point.

If 1v2:

Any nearby allies? Hold the point and ping for help. If there are no nearby allies (assuming no potatos), they should be off fighting 4v3 on any of the other two points. You’ll eventually go down and lose the point, but your team should’ve won the 4v3 (granting your team an immediate 15 points vs the 5 you gave up when you died). In this case, you team is now up 10 points from that trade + you have another two nodes ticking away.

1v3:

Read 1v2 scenario. If your team can’t win a 4v2, just stop trying and cry/quit the match.

When you die and wanna figure out where to go next, consider the following:

Are there any fights currently happening? How quickly can I reach this fight? If you can reach it quickly, then do so and end it fast. If not, look to the next question…

There is a fight happening on the other side of the map (on far) and you can’t reach it in time. Ask yourself the following:

Is home ours? If no, cap it. If yes, look to the next step….

Is mid ours? If no, cap it. If yes, look to the next step….

So 66% of the map is yours and there’s a fight happening far. Are there any map objectives you can sneak (lord, mini bosses, treb). The issue with sneaking lord in legacy is that a far battle usually means you’ll end up cutting it very close when running into their base.

Honestly, everybody spouts FIGHT ON POOOOOOOOINT even when you’re a ranged champ and then complain that they don’t have enough sustain.

Pyriall.1683:

Play bunker mes while you can and also druid if you want to be the 1 v 100 hero your team needs.

Fixed.

Tbh, if they just made it so that third hit on the sword auto actually landed in a more reliable fashion, that’d be enough.

For the people thinking bristle back not hitting your target over seemingly flat terrain…..

Might wanna play the game some more. This isn’t a bristle specific bug.

Yashuoa.9527:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Eles are probably the only class that might need that extra HP added to their base. Let’s just wait and see what happens.

Not completely true.

Guardian and Thief have about just as much basehealth as Ele (Ele just below 12k, Guardian just over 12k and Thief just below 13k).
Increasing base health wouldnt force these classes into vit amulets and it would also open up more choices for all classes in general.
To a lesser extend ranger with 15.9k could need some more vit and the rest have 17k or more.

Therefore a 560 vit increase to everyone seems right to me.

Guardian has a ton of ways to directly mitigate damage. Thief has a ton of mobility and stealth. Once bunkers die and power burst is made meaningful, I’m certain these two classes can choose to run zerk (might not be optimal for guard, though) and preform quite nicely assuming the player can use their class’ kit effectively.

Elementalists, on the other hand, only have tons of sustain to live off of. Their direct damage mitigation skills come with either dumb downsides or incredibly long CDs. For elementalists to reliably do damage, they’d have to go with zerk or marauder, but (as we’ve seen with warrior) HP + sustain and no damage mitigation = ded.

David.5974:

Meta is in everyone of us, only choosen proffesion make our game easier or harder.

Such motivation.

Eles are probably the only class that might need that extra HP added to their base. Let’s just wait and see what happens.

Not holding my breath, but certainly curious.

Roll around in my loads of money of course.

Obviously DH.

/thread

Uh. You faced guardians/reapers/revs with this and won?

Impact.2780:

Get game.
Pick one class, main it.
Play it until you’re bored, don’t feel like it suits you, or more interested in another.
Pick a second class, stick with it as if it were main.
If like it, main it.
Once at certain point with main, try all classes out just a little to get to know their skills and how they play. Then, return to main class, be better for it.
When opportunity presents, duel using other classes for better understanding without having to really commit anything to them.
Once at a high level, pick an alt with a play style you can work with.
Use alt when main is not good for the comp, in a weak state, or just for a change.

Basically this.

For a while, I didn’t know what any of the other class’ skill names were, but I knew the animations and effects. Once I played each one for a bit and understood the basic cooldowns and openings to abuse, life became so much easier.

Considering this is an international game, I’d assume that some people don’t speak English as their first language and, as such, should be excused from minor errors assuming they’ve communicated their message.

Galandil.9641:

Shemie.4286:

For instance, I dont listen to teammates and I never will. They’er not going to tell me how to play(You’re going to have the mindset that ure better than everybody) to win games.

And then there’s the mindset “I’m too good for playing with others, you’re all scrubs, but nonetheless I’ll ruin your games the same cause I’m so selfcentered” – losers’ mindset in a team game.

^now I know ANet will add the idea. Hire this gentleman.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Warrior does NOT need Protection or Superspeed. What Warrior needs are:

1: More active defenses. Warrior sustain is so bad because defenses like Stances are only strong in the short term. Once they run out, your goose is cooked. In this thread I put forth ideas that I feel are faithful to both the current and GW1 Warrior spirit, but should make the Warrior simple to play but hard to master.

How’s about giving non-shield off hands a parry mechanic that allows you to chain right into your adrenaline skill and give it increased damage? Something dark souls where you could parry an attack and then counter attack for a ton of damage. That’d make something like axe/sword interesting. Give off-hand axe/mace/torch a specific parry mechanic too. If parrying with sword grants you added adrenaline burst damage if you immediately follow up, let an axe parry give your adrenaline burst added cleave or some sort of armor penetration. Let a mace parry daze for 0.5 seconds, making it easier to land your adrenaline skill (imagine timing a good mace parry with main hand axe and heightened focus). Let the torch parry cleanse some conditions off you and strip boons off your target.

To keep the other offhands from becoming a better shield, throw the missile reflect on block to w.e trait that specifically buffs shield and make it shield only with a minor (100-200) boost to toughness.

Thoughts?