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I’d like to refer you to DH and power shiro/glint rev, kind sir.
I’ve tried to theory craft some sort of rework for warrior, but how do you let them maintain their speedy burst in-your-face play style without encroaching upon thief’s territory?
Now that I think about it, placing emphasis on a speedier, more bursty play style for warrior would actually be a step in the right direction. I was always somewhat disappointed that GS war didn’t have that samurai sort of feel. Precise, methodical, and honed strikes worthy of a battle hardened soldier.
If something like this were to be done, then a thief rework would be in order as well. Something along the lines of total 1v1 domination through timed interrupts, dodges and disables all culminating in a single death blow.
Of course, this would then step on vanilla mesmer’s toes, but then you could allow them to adopt a more manipulative play style, placing more emphasis on the flow of the fight as a whole. I feel chronomancer was meant to do this, but conquest just promotes so much bunker BS, skillful and entertaining to watch fights are so far and in between that it almost makes you feel like anet honestly believes this is what good PvP looks like.
I’m scared to ask this, but did Nexon actually succeed in buying Anet behind the scenes?
it’s needs some ways to refill its health bar.
mending becoming a physical skill, so its effected by peak performance would rock. +10% healing per bar of adrenaline and 16sec CD would be great. adrenaline when attacked should be baseline too ofc. reverting the adrenaline nerf would be nice too, nice druids can keep AF out of combat.
fast hands is needs to be baseline.
a lot of warrior weapon skills need to be revamped. warrior needs more boons and debuffs. leaps need to be speed up. lots of utilutes need changes too.
there is a lot to do, and over at the warriors forum we have had a lot of gret suggestions.
I honestly believe sustain as a whole needs to take a huuuuuuuge hit. You need to build for heal and only heal for you to be able to heal yourself/allies in an efficient manner.
For instance, in LoL, there’s a support champion named Soraka. She just dumps out the healing by the crapload. Naturally, if you ignore her, her team stays alive and slaughters yours. If you focus her, you ignore the tank who’s CCing you into kingdom come and the adc/ap caster who’s melting your face instantly. Before the tank related buffs, assassins (when done right), were a ridiculously valuable asset to the team, being able to all in (and sometimes escape) a key target. By removing the Soraka, simply evading the tank’s hard engage leaves the damage dealer ripe for the reking.
As you can see, there’s a ton of things to look out for in a team fight in better balanced games. Of course, that isn’t everything, but that’s a good bit of what is involved during actual head on encounters.
What about GW2? The best teams (before cele tbh) just focus fired whoever they could catch out of position and then proceed to destroying the now outnumbered enemy. There was no key target. There was no actual depth to team fights aside from who unleashed their wombo combo first. We are in desperate need of specialization here, like actual specialization.
If you’re playing for fun, there’s unranked/WvWvW roaming. If you’re playing to win, play something else. Its that simple, honestly. Not a single (successful) top team runs a warrior and some of these guys have playing since launch. If you know something they don’t, I’m certain some disgruntled warrior mains would love to hear your input.
Another thing some of the people defending their use of warrior here have to understand is that they’ll never understand where the actual complaints come from until they reach/observe top tier play.
The meta is meta for a reason, boys.
I’ve tried to theory craft some sort of rework for warrior, but how do you let them maintain their speedy burst in-your-face play style without encroaching upon thief’s territory?
Now that I think about it, placing emphasis on a speedier, more bursty play style for warrior would actually be a step in the right direction. I was always somewhat disappointed that GS war didn’t have that samurai sort of feel. Precise, methodical, and honed strikes worthy of a battle hardened soldier.
If something like this were to be done, then a thief rework would be in order as well. Something along the lines of total 1v1 domination through timed interrupts, dodges and disables all culminating in a single death blow. I feel daredevil was meant to do this, but all we’ve gotten is pogosticks.
Of course, this would then step on vanilla mesmer’s toes, but then you could allow them to adopt a more manipulative play style, placing more emphasis on the flow of the fight as a whole. I feel chronomancer was meant to do this, but conquest just promotes so much bunker BS, skillful and entertaining to watch fights are so far and in between that it almost makes you feel like anet honestly believes this is what good PvP looks like.
I’m scared to ask this, but did Nexon actually succeed in buying Anet behind the scenes?
Nerfs are in order. Thief and warrior are actually balanced, for the most part. Buffing them to bring them more in line with this ridiculous bunker meta is pointless, since that would do nothing to change the state of stale PvP.
I was certain the legendary wings would get them to farm up in a premade.
Medi trapper definitely isn’t meta. It never will be due to the damage being able to be canceled with one dodge.
Oh, how times have changed.
Anet got pubstomped by an abjured premade and are now crying.
Took me a while to understand that.
So being forced to watch the map, gauge your rotations correctly, and balance your attention to side objectives (nothing more annoying than fighting mid in kyhlo and eating a surprise treb) is a bad thing? It sounds like you want to duel or a game mode centered around simply fighting (as do I and many others), but it’ll never happen.
There is a JP if you look hard enough.
Hint, it ends right over the blue lord testing area. Be careful not to get stuck.
Perma reveal? Yea, not like thieves should get to PvP anymore. At least we’re wanted in PvE right….?
Well how do you suggest preventing perma-stealth thief/mes from being OP in my suggested gamemode?
There’s a ton of suggestions in the thief forums, namely being a rework of acro entirely and turning it into a shadow step related tree. You could place mini boss objectives around the map like svanir and utahein. You could create special anti-stealth zones. People scared of thieves can hide there, but miss out on the buffs and eventually the other team not camping the zone will snowball with all of the buffs they’ve received.
All off the top of my head naturally. I could come up with something better later on if necessary.
I’m not sure entirely how to stop vanilla mes from instagibbing everything, so I’ll let the people who’ve actually played mes to suggest fair trades.
Also, not sure if you’ve heard of this amazing class, but its called herald. They get free revives, tons of damage mitigation and, wait for it……. AN AOE REVEAL. AMAZING, RIGHT? Also, engi with lock on and stealth gyro is also a thing. This game mode would actually give DH’s a reason to use their abysmal reveal trap.
Perma reveal? Yea, not like thieves should get to PvP anymore. At least we’re wanted in PvE right….?
DH is a better archer than ranger when considering their unblockable knockbacks and higher burst. Ranger’s LB is still more versatile which, ultimately, makes it better.
Druid, on the other hand…..
God no…it would just become stealth and bomb.
You spelled condi bunker wrong.
Take pride on your loss streak, OP. Keep playing normally and hope you keep losing. Let’s see how far this will go on for.
I’d stay off these forums too, if I were a dev.
So what would you suggest? Even more out-of-stealth burst? Or more dodges? Or 5s CD steal? Thief is balanced, IMO. Mesmer, or at least chrono, is not.
Yea, let’s balance around the people who DON’T have a full grasp over the entirety of the game and its systems. For a second, imagine what the top players would do with even easier to play classes? The competitive scene would quite literally die. This isn’t an issue if casual PvP is what Anet is aiming for.
You’ve missed the point entirely. The OP says it started as a joke. If I’m to assume correctly, the test then became an interesting little revelation that shows that even without any damage stats, a revenant’s auto is still more capable than an elementalist’s who sacrificed potential defensive stats for damage BECAUSE of his traits. This says that either elementalist needs a buff (lolnope) or revenant needs a nerf.
I’m willing to wager that even if you take a fully traited burn guard and gave them sword (simply because its auto is the best for generating burn stacks) and replaced the revenant, I doubt the ele would lose more than half of their HP and its widely known what power burn can pack.
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I’d like the OP to test again with the same parameters, just with lava font included while the rev uses unrelenting to dodge as many lava fonts as possible. It’d be interesting to see where it goes. Although I fear we’ll end up including every skill set until it just becomes a normal fight, but….
SCIENCE?
It’s not science. This is just being used to try to shame Revenants.
Much like the Ring of Fire fiasco with Elementalists, a very unrealistic scenario is created to try to show how powerful something is. Unlike that fiasco though, which was unrealistic, but could still be threatening due to RoF being covered or glitching up, here Alekt is showcasing a duel that is not only unrealistic, but pits almost every advantage possible to a single class in an area where they’re designed to excel at.
Science is an “empirical” field, that is, it develops a body of knowledge by observing things and performing experiments. The meticulous process of gathering and analyzing data is called the “scientific method,” and we sometimes use science to describe the knowledge we already have. Science is also what’s involved in the performance of something complicated: “the science of making a perfect soufflé.”
Right out of the dictionary. Granted, we haven’t done nearly enough tests with these parameters to solidify any conclusions.
Anyways, as simple as the situation is (just autoing), the point that revenants are still capable of beating a power user with 0 damage stats says a lot. They’re designed to excel in melee, but to what extent? Could you take a settler thief and produce similar results?
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- Balanced team tokens – Grants an assured balanced team while solo-Q
- No Revs token – Next match 100% assured no Rev’s in it
;D
Ross for president of Anet.
I’d like the OP to test again with the same parameters, just with lava font included while the rev uses unrelenting to dodge as many lava fonts as possible. It’d be interesting to see where it goes. Although I fear we’ll end up including every skill set until it just becomes a normal fight, but….
SCIENCE?
Welcome to MMOs! They cost money to run! And when you expansions come out, you pretty much have to buy them to keep up!
THIS IS NEWS! WOO!
Wouldn’t be a problem if, before HoT, ANET didn’t just straight up lie by calling elites sidegrades.
Therefore, DPS loss or not, you’d be back to square 1 where the sword rev still kills the ele.
Also, the Revenant would be eating about 2 full Lava Fonts every 12 seconds (when Unrelenting Assault would be up – a marginal DPS increase and sometimes a DPS loss -).
Unrelenting doesn’t just do damage ;D.
If she uses lava font, the rev can use unrelenting. Her point is that someone needs a buff/nerf and it isn’t the ele.
It’s a stupid comparison to begin with. Why don’t you stand in Wells too? Or take an Eviscerate? Or a Hundred Blades? Etc.
All this says is that a Revenant with almost all his damage traits and a Toughness amulet can kill one of the squishiest classes (which is also notorious for their bad auto-attacks; Fireball itself is VERY slow) with auto-attacks before they die to autos themselves.
So the traits alone are enough to account for over 1k power? If a marauder warrior just STOOD there, it’d at least be 10 minutes or more before the revenant killed him after proccing EP, so no one is arguing defense. The point is the ele, who has more than double the rev’s power, wasn’t able to beat the rev who had 2k less HP and averaged 500 DPH. She also isn’t basing an entire argument around it. She said it started as a joke, but it seems to have brought up yet another point against rev.
I brought up unrelenting because you brought up lava font. That’s all.
I’ve thought about stuff like pre-placement matches similar to other games, just to at least give a general spacing at the beginning of a league. So it isn’t a kittening mosh pit of random players of random skills. The only problem I see with this is that, at least in my opinion, if the matchmaking system isn’t improved then you will still see lower MMR players getting carried now and again, placing them in divisions they shouldn’t be in yet.
This isn’t a bad idea. In fact, if I’m not mistaken, a lot of games with an competitive ladder do this for all accounts that are just beginning to climb the ladder, so even if you’re an ESL player, you’ll quickly reach the rank you’re meant to be at unless you intentionally play a lot worse than you’re capable of.
As for suggestions, conquest needs to go or get a duper re-work.
It’s ironic because I was making fun of those who sincerely believe that pro teams have any input on this absolute horrid display of balance.
I’m not one of the people who believe that you alone got minstrel removed, but if ANET doesn’t take suggestions from their best players, who DO they listen to?
Looking at their development across all game modes I doubt they listen to anyone at all.
qft
It isn’t bunker classes that ruin the game. What’s ruining the game is conquest. Too much emphasis on point control and not enough on actual combat. Remove conquest or give it a maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaajor overhaul. Theyre competing with games like League and DOTA that have beautiful level design.
Great example for those who haven’t played either if these games:
The enemy team is beating your doors down and your team is on the defense. You’re the jungler (player responsible for securing minibosses, among other things). You see Baron (a boss that grants your team a super powerful buff for a few minutes) is up and your team is holding the defensive line down just enough to stall the enemy’s advance. You grab your oracle’s alteration (to whiff any hidden “radars” placed by the enemy) and manage to remove the wards. Of course, the enemy has noticed you removing their vision of Baron and know you can solo him fairly quickly. Now, they’ve got a choice. They either continue down your base and hope to best your team and the defensive turrets or intercept your taking of Baron.
Case A: they take their chances and keep trying to bash your allies heads in. You take baron and now your allies and allied minions deal a ton more damage and manage to crush the enemy entirely (thus keeping them on a rather lengthy 50s+ respawn) giving your team a chance to gain enough ground and even win the game.
Case B: the enemy gives up and goes in to intercept Baron. You see that they’ve left the base which can only mean they’re headed your way to intercept Baron. Knowing this, you back off and allow Baron to reset. While the enemy decides to take Baron (since they’re all there, most likely), you have your smite ready and your team is moving in to disrupt. During the commotion, they either take Baron and get wiped because they’re low (and lose the buff), or you steal the buff with your smite and your team manages to ace the enemy with their added damage from Baron.
Case C (lolswtfscenario): everybody was so engrossed in the fight over Baron that nobody noticed the enemy jungler slip away and take their fifth dragon buff. Both teams escape losing an equal amount of members, but the fifth dragon buff mostly mirrors the baron buff, keeping the game stalemated until both sides have all of their members back up. At this point, the surviving players with the baron and fifth dragon buff are the keys for both sides winning and proper plays from them at such a late stage of the game would decide the outcome of the game.
What happens when one team is beating another down in GW2? Can you knock them off point and decap/cap?
If yes, enjoy stalling the game until the time limit.
If no, may as well call it in then.
If you want to draw any parallels with League or DOTA, thief is the jungler. Imagine my previous example without dragon or baron. The enemy team would have no reason to stop hammering the enemy in their base, would they?
Before this becomes a “THEY RUINED THIEF” post, my point is that there simply isn’t enough complexity in conquest for anything but this brain dead bunker meta to flourish. I use thief as an example here because it used to be that you actually needed to manage your allies and their healing/DPS resources appropriately across all the points while keeping tabs on the enemy thief who would sneak behind you all, steal a point, potentially circle around and gank some weaker enemies, or continue capping while doing battle with the enemy thief or cutting off any enemy reinforcements. Before HoT, we had cele ele dominate. Before 6/23, we had cele ele, engi, and warrior. If we look even before that (pre cele), we had a different slew of problems, but it almost seemed like the game was more entertaining back then. I don’t know, it seems like there have been too many design mistakes for them to fix things gradually. They can either exert a herculean effort and attempt to balance EVERYTHING in one huuuuuge push or simply scrap this mess and start from scratch. Anyways, I’d stop hoping for minor fixes (I call “balancing” bunkers minor) because the issue runs faaaaar deeper than that.
It’s ironic because I was making fun of those who sincerely believe that pro teams have any input on this absolute horrid display of balance.
I’m not one of the people who believe that you alone got minstrel removed, but if ANET doesn’t take suggestions from their best players, who DO they listen to?
I find that its a lot less stressful to play with an objective other than winning in an environment designed to make it nearly impossible to progress in a reasonable manner. Focus on becoming a better player overall and you’ll find that you’ll enjoy yourself a lot more. I personally count it as a success if I can rack up over 150-200 points during an obviously losing situation (while doing what my class is meant to do, naturally). Once you feel you’ve gotten good enough on your own, there’s no other answer to progression other than making your own pre-made with other competent players.
I don’t understand why people are looking at the teams. This isn’t their fault. It isn’t their responsibility to run what the community sees as non-cancerous builds. This is how conquest is meant to be played. They’re playing the game for money which makes it a job. As professionals, they have to take their job seriously.
He was against the amulet, not the role.
These top teams are professional players. They play the game to win, not for fun. You can even go as far as to say that they only play for fun during their twitch sessions, since there’s nothing on the line there. Trying to call him out as a hypocrite because the pressure placed on him and his team to preform and adapting isn’t fair, tbh. Top players in every sport can and do abuse every single edge they can get their hands on to get ahead. This, I believe, is a sign of humility. They recognize that gimping themselves against their opponents isn’t a viable strategy since one person/group can only be so much better than their opposition in a certain area of play before it comes back to completely rip them to shreds.
Honestly, I’m not too surprised.
Random arena is a fitting name for current matchmaking
Except you are facing premades.
More and more premades everyday. Soon, it’ll be random premades.
I feel you, OP. I fell in love a long time ago with the game’s combat system. It felt rewarding to dodge that burst and follow up with one of your own after baiting your opponent. It felt rewarding to coordinate a CC lockdown with another team mate or two to bring down a known threat. It felt rewarding to properly out rotate the enemy and quickly gank the 2 or more enemies that were about to drop your ally and save the day. It felt so rewarding to actually play the game as the originally intended.
Now? What do we have now? Everyone can do everything on a single class. I have a dragon hunter build that isn’t trap heavy (meaning slightly less burst), but better sustain (not exactly medi-trapper), with 10.5s of immobilize, 1 pull, 2 knockbacks, 3 knockdowns, over 10s of block, around 3 blinds all tied with a tidy 19k HP package while being able to do all of this from more or less 1200 range. Its fun having so many tools, but when you can press one button after another to keep a guy locked down completely while you crap out 6k+ crits every 4s from 1200 and walk out of a 1v1 having taken almost no damage….? That’s hardly fun. Its entertaining coming up with a sweet build that trumps almost everything else, but where’s the rush? Used to be people had only a smidge of CC and even less stun breaks. If a dude manages to avoid your few seconds of lockdown, you’d most likely be dead because you had to sacrifice quite a bit for that CC. Now? Too much of everything.
I want to go on, but ANET’s devs need to realize that there is genius in simplicity.
Are you still playing? They don’t care as long as you’re on the treadmill.
You’re enjoying the game even with all of the imbalanced classes and bunkerfests…..?
More power to you, I suppose.
All of you guys are insane. Unblockable effects are ridiculous. The tons of block skills people have nowadays are ridiculous. Auras are ridiculous, let’s just passively give people exactly what they want. Why do we need cancer like this in the game?
I’ll only comment on your third question. Toughness is SUPPOSED to counter high power (definitely not the case). The counter to toughness is supposed to be condition damage. The counter to condition damage is supposed to be vitality (certainly not the case with all of the torment stacking revs and burn guards). The counter to vitality is supposed to be either toughness to negate the damage they have left after investing in vitality or power to shred through the health (again, not the case).
As it stands now, the only difference between condi and power burst is that condi deals its damage a second or two after power but the condi user is allowed to stack health since his damage relies on a single stat. The issue with the game is a very fundamental lack of logic. Its mechanics have no backbone to be built around. The only stats that matter are the damage stats, where all your defense is meant to be tied to actively defending through w.e youve built towards, but (and this is especially true after 6/23), you can take a lot more on your builds than you were previously allowed to. Naturally, this isn’t a bad thing since things that weren’t viable are (or should I say were) viable.
I could go on, but I’ll spare you and I the time and tell you to either take what you’ve been given or move on. Its obvious that the people in charge of balance are totally incompetent or simply have a vision of fun and balance that vastly differs from the majority of the players. Hell, I’m sure the top tier players have a list that’s a mile long in regards to balance, but they keep playing because of their competitive drive and what I can only call a love of the game (for lack of a better term, naturally).
What’re you playing?
I have a question. Did they strike back? Chances are, you’re either running a tank build or they’re running a tank build. In either case, feeling like no damage is being done should be normal.
Thing is, if they want to gate content behind HoT, then they should do so for every part of the game that isn’t involved with anything competitive. If they insist on pushing for elites, then make them available to everyone in sPvP.
Honestly, I don’t see tournaments being won by different players until the current top players retire (which they probably won’t because its practically free money for them).
I’ve successfully put GW2 down over two weeks ago and have moved onto learning other games that have proven themselves to be competitive. I honestly recommend quitting to people who no longer enjoy the game. No use enduring punishment when its optional.
- Removed Evade frames on Vault
or
- Vault now cost 6 initiative
Do it to us Anet.
We like the pain.Corrupt a balance change!
- Black powder now pulses every second. Also applies self blind if you are in the field.
- Preparedness is baseline. Removed initiative regeneration from infiltrators signet, shadows rejuvenation, and quick pockets, and reduced normal regen to 1 per 2 seconds.
- Shadows embrace now pulls all blinds from allies and enemies to yourself when you stealth.
- Acrobatics has been totally reworked. All traits focus on removing impairing conditions. There are so many options, you’ll never be crippled again! Your welcome! Deleted unhindered combatant so that acrobatics is valuable.
- Increased potent poison to 100% extra damage and 50% extra duration. Replaced poison with bleed on all skills and utilities.
- Added blind to CnD. Edit: self blind.
- Increased dancing dagger damage by 2000%. This skill can hit allied players.
- Pistol whip no longer roots you. Removed evade frames.
Scary part is, it sounds like something they might do. You even laid the patch notes out for them. DELETE THIS WITH THE UTMOST HASTE, MY BOY.
Side note:
Honestly surprised at how much DH hate there is considering revenants exist and are way more unfair.
At least from a Necromancer’s perspective. (edit: Not complaining though Reaper feels really strong)
Because rev doesn’t have the option to nuke an entire team. Again, not saying that it isn’t unavoidable (it is definitely avoidable), but at lower levels of play where no one knows what going on, this could really rustle their jimmies.
New players start in soloQ. If soloQ is remotely enjoyable, they’ll want to get better and better until they realize that the better players are waiting for them in teamQ. Then, with their above-soloQ-average skill, they make/join a team and eventually keep pushing till top tier. If the game isn’t enjoyable for newbies, there will never be new competition, quite simple. Sure, don’t balance around soloQ, but there needs to be better alternative for soloQers, lest the top tier matches remain static with the same dudes over and over.
Imagine if they threw a 12 year old Messi or Ronaldo against fully grown men at their peak without an option to at least practice against kids their age. I don’t know about you and I’m no fortune teller, but I’m certain they wouldn’t be where they are today if they were constantly farmed by older people. Sure, you could say that some of the guys at the top right now started at the bottom, in this crappy system, but are you completely convinced that you can’t foster a proper playing environment at all levels?
probably an engineer.
That engineer with down syndrome that would say “woo hoo bye frands!” was top 20 at one point…. Let’s take this whole PvP ranking thing with a grain of salt
Sir, I’m selling ammunition and it appears that you’ve fired some shots. Could I interest you in a reload?
Then have it exclude people interacting with game objectives.