Guild Wars 2

Uhtameit.2413:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Uhtameit.2413:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You need proof that the damage was done by a 3rd party. When Customer Support agents look at your game logs, they’ll see that no outside IPs accessed your account. Therefore they have no proof that you didn’t do the damage yourself. It’s the same as the “evil little brother” situation, where a family member or friend hopped on your PC and did something you didn’t want.

So the only advise is that you should have better computer security. A good anti-virus prog goes a long way.

Read again, he has proof, they just won’t listen.

Read again – game logs don’t lie.

You definitely need to read again. If his whole computer got hacked, of course they don’t lie, they just don’t contain all the necessary information to understand the situation. Pleasure to help.

Read again. Customer Support found no outside IP addresses accessing his account. They need proof he was hacked, and it wasn’t just him doing the bad stuff and asking for everything rolled back.

It’s not a matter of if it happened or not. It’s a matter of meeting the criteria to do a roll back. If Anet cannot establish proof from their end, then it won’t happen. Period.

As I stated in the edit of my previous post, I can falsify any letter or document, and provide that as “proof” to Anet that I’m innocent. Which is also why submitting such documents does no good.

Uhtameit.2413:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You need proof that the damage was done by a 3rd party. When Customer Support agents look at your game logs, they’ll see that no outside IPs accessed your account. Therefore they have no proof that you didn’t do the damage yourself. It’s the same as the “evil little brother” situation, where a family member or friend hopped on your PC and did something you didn’t want.

So the only advise is that you should have better computer security. A good anti-virus prog goes a long way.

Read again, he has proof, they just won’t listen.

Read again – game logs don’t lie.

Edit – Also, I can provide a signed letter from my little brother than he accessed my account without my permission. Never mind he doesn’t exist in real life. The letter is proof enough.

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

I said potential, not actual. One would assume that actual would be based on demand, and skill etc. But you have answered enough.

It appears we disagree fundamentally. While i dont think every player should earn the same thing, i think that one should aim for similar earning potentials in a best case scenario when done well. The logical reason i can see to award players differently is when they specifically want to incentivize certain behaviours that better that benefit the game.

but since we disagree on that point, we dont have much common ground to come to an understanding.

If you think systems should have the same “potential” rewards regardless as to the fact that their mechanics are different then yes, it is clear that we don’t share common ground as that idea makes zero sense to me.

The “logical” reason for differences in potential rewards cross system is due to the inherent difference between the systems structures. The differences in potential rewards within the systems then boils down to player driven factors.

Take the example below, (note it is a hypothetical example and not an comprehensive outline of the differences between pve and the market model):

SYSTEM A –
1. Zero risk.
2. Zero capital needed.
3. Non competitive/non zero sum.
4. Grants secondary rewards.
5. Can earn gold from it.

SYSTEM B -
1. High risk.
2. Large capital needed.
3. Competitive/zero sum.
4. Grants no secondary rewards.
5. Can earn gold from it.

Now you suggest that system A should give the same “potential” return in terms of gold gain (point 5.) as B, really?

You did a nice job with this post. It’s what was inside my head, but I had no idea how to write it down. I think I tried to a few pages back, where I argued that if you want to balance the two, then you also have to balance the amount of money I lost from bad investments.

You need proof that the damage was done by a 3rd party. When Customer Support agents look at your game logs, they’ll see that no outside IPs accessed your account. Therefore they have no proof that you didn’t do the damage yourself. It’s the same as the “evil little brother” situation, where a family member or friend hopped on your PC and did something you didn’t want.

So the only advise is that you should have better computer security. A good anti-virus prog goes a long way.

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

I perfectly understand the difference, let me break this down into simple series of questions, so people dont misunderstand me.

Assuming the macro economy is not an issue, or assuming that two playstyles use the same type of structure, say for example both are reward reallocation

Do you agree that both playstyles should have the same earning potential(when played well or properly)?

As long as the formula is simply “Do X, get loot”, then it’s already in game. No two items are worth the same to different players, so you can’t bring balance to the equation. Kill the Shadow Behemoth, get Final Rest. Kill mega hologram Scarlet, get Scarlet’s Kiss rifle. How do you balance that?

Note – I’m not talking about the Gold value, but rather the skin.

Not sure what you are getting at here, not like saying it makes no sense, just saying i dont understand what you mean.

What I’m getting at is that rewards are balanced based on the simple formula: Do X event → Get a reward from a loot table based on the event done.

So if you kill X boss, you get rewards from his loot table.

If you kill X player in WvW, you get rewards from his loot table.

If you complete X event, you get rewards from that loot table.

It’s all balanced when you don’t count actual market values. Now when you add in the market, that’s when everything is out of whack. That’s because player demand will alter prices. In my previous example, do I want to take the time to farm Final Rest, or take the time to farm Scarlet’s Kiss (where both have an equal chance to drop). If both took an average of 50 runs to get, but one is worth 4 Gold, while the other is worth 200 Gold, which would you do for profit?

Borghal.1635:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If I go to the GW2 Gem Shop and buy a hat, I get a hat.

If I go to the GW2 Gem Shop and buy a chance at getting a rare dye, I get a chance at a rare dye.

If you’re going to make comparisons, be sure you compare them correctly.

Point being not the accuracy of comparisons, but that randomness for money is bad on an individual level.

If you don’t like the random nature of chance, then you can buy it directly from the TP. I think that was the whole point of CJ’s post.

Ashen.2907:

Belzebu.3912:

Yes they do, its function was to give a balanced build, and it still does, if you bought/made only because of the crit damage, it is your problem.

The crit damage was part of the function. If something does not do all of what it does before then it no longer completely fulfills its previous function.

The concept is the same, only the mechanics of the stats changed. Celestial stats were meant to be a “Jack of all trades, master of none”. It gave even stat boosts across the board. Still does. And due to the Crit nerfs, they buffed the stats to make up for it. If your whole purpose was to go all out Crit, then you should have invested in ’Zerker stats instead.

phys.7689:

I perfectly understand the difference, let me break this down into simple series of questions, so people dont misunderstand me.

Assuming the macro economy is not an issue, or assuming that two playstyles use the same type of structure, say for example both are reward reallocation

Do you agree that both playstyles should have the same earning potential(when played well or properly)?

As long as the formula is simply “Do X, get loot”, then it’s already in game. No two items are worth the same to different players, so you can’t bring balance to the equation. Kill the Shadow Behemoth, get Final Rest. Kill mega hologram Scarlet, get Scarlet’s Kiss rifle. How do you balance that?

Note – I’m not talking about the Gold value, but rather the skin.

chronometria.3708:

I bought five of the flame and frost dyes when they returns and didn’t get a single one of the special dyes.

If I go to the cash shop for team fortress 2 and pay real money for a hat – I get a hat.

If I go to to the gw2 cash shop and pay gems to get a new dye….chances are I don’t.

That didn’t leave me feeling good and now, whenever I see dye packs on offer, I don’t buy them. I would say I am far from alone in that and thus far the only special dye I have I paid gold for to get direct. I would much rather have been surprised with an interesting dye from the selection to try out and perhaps be given some new ideas with.

Everyone loved opening dyes and these packs should really be the “you`ve got some spare gems, go get a fun surprise item”. As it is they are the “you’ve just wasted your spare gems item” instead.

If I go to the GW2 Gem Shop and buy a hat, I get a hat.

If I go to the GW2 Gem Shop and buy a chance at getting a rare dye, I get a chance at a rare dye.

If you’re going to make comparisons, be sure you compare them correctly.

You need to first ask yourself “Why am I playing?” You can’t keep saying “I want balance” when you’re the one determining how you play. For instance:

-If you’re just playing the way you want, because you like it, then your reward is “fun and entertainment”.

-If you’re playing to make money, then your reward is items and coin.

I WvW a lot. Sometimes I’m killing people and getting loot. Other times I’m defending keeps by building siege. One choice gives me items and coin as drops, as well as WXP. The other gives my server more PPT because we’re holding onto locations. I make the choice to sacrifice loot bags in order to help my server.

So as you can see, it’s not a matter of time = rewards. It’s a matter of how you use your time in the first place. If I need to farm for money, and it’s boring as heck, I’ll still do it because I need the money. If I decide to sit at the TP for 3 hours, researching items to buy and sell, that’s also a choice I make.

Borghal.1635:

Curtis Johnson.8456:

And the consumer benefit being the direct purchase price is largely driven by the true player value of each color.

That is the exact opposite of benefit. Since the dyes in the game are often very similar, in a lot of cases their popularity is determined mostly by their rarity and/or drop rate, not actual estetic preferences, resulting in a vicious circle.

-Oh, it’s rare? Then people will surely pay more for it, let’s stick it up at a high price.
-Wow, that is one rare colour, I gotta have it. The other one for 1/10 of the price looks a bit similar, but there’s got to be a reason the expensive one is so expensive.
Bang, price goes up more.

If a player doesn’t have the self control to refrain from making a purchase purely based on “ZOMG it’s rare”, then I have absolutely no problem selling it to them. Other times, it’s OCDs in which someone needs to have that certain shade of Black. In that case, then I feel good that I was able to satisfy their cravings.

Making people smile, one customer at a time.

These items still function the same as they did previously. In fact, Anet buffed the stats on them. So what’s there to complain about?

phys.7689:

3)Even if the tp is supposed to be one core gameplay mechanic, why is it more dominant than others with respect to obtaining rewards. Before you say because other playtypes inflate the economy, ask yourself why they are not some designs in place that dont inflate the economy, but reward other playstyles.

Again, you make the mistake of comparing rewards from events and quests, to TP profits. These are two inherently different things. One creates items and coin, the other trades it with a Gold Sink attached. I’ll try to explain it below.

Generating items/coins: The game generates reward chests and other loot drops when certain criteria are met. Defeating a boss, completing an event/task, or killing a target. These items and coins never existed before they dropped, thus have an important effect on the health of the game economy. The more of these are generated, the more their values decrease. This is why it’s important for Anet to curb events that reward “too much loot”. A good example of this was last year’s Ancient Karka chest. So many high level items were generated, that the market for them collapsed. This wouldn’t be a problem if GW2 were like a single-player console game. Those don’t have an economy with a shared market.

Market profits from TP: The Black Lion Trading Post does not generate rewards. Everything available on the TP already exists in game. The TP is a tool that allows players to buy and sell items they want/need, all while eliminating Gold via build in sinks (i.e. taxes and listing fees). Prices are set by Supply and Demand. The more of a certain thing someone wants, and the less of it are available, the more expensive the item. Wealth is moved between players, with 15% of the value in coin being removed from the game.

Going back to your question, there are ways to reward different playstyles. You have not only Gold as currency, but Dungeon tokens, Karma, WvW Badges, and even SPvP reward tracks from ranking up. The items that are Account Bound do not contribute to inflation. As such, that means they can’t generate wealth for you either. The player needs to decide how they want to be rewarded. Farm for items that can be sold to other players, or farm for items that you want to use for yourself.

Lheimroo.2947:

Curtis Johnson.8456:

It surprises me sometimes that for all the talk of converting gold to gems nobody ever offers the other direction as a solution. Enameled dyes can be bought directly using gems if you go through the exchange.

As of this morning the range is:

• Enameled Legacy Dye ~190 gems.
• Enameled Crimson Dye ~1100 gems.

No randomness required.

edit: Lol – Raistlan did the thing i said nobody did, beat me to it

I’m sorry. You’re letting players set the price of dyes by saying that – and not just any players, the farmers and champ trainers. The people who drive inflation and the ever-increasing gold->gem conversion rate. So $13 bucks for a single dye? Okay?

Gotta call it like I see it. Enormously self-serving attitude from the gem seller. Not customer focused at all.

1) Is purchasing this specific dye a requirement set by Anet?
2) If you don’t like RNG, you have an option to purchase it from the TP, with prices set by Supply and Demand metrics.
3) GW2 is being provided to you without any monthly subscription fees. That seems pretty customer focused to me. Calling it as I see it.

Destai.9603:

Curtis Johnson.8456:

It surprises me sometimes that for all the talk of converting gold to gems nobody ever offers the other direction as a solution. Enameled dyes can be bought directly using gems if you go through the exchange.

As of this morning the range is:

• Enameled Legacy Dye ~190 gems.
• Enameled Crimson Dye ~1100 gems.

No randomness required.

edit: Lol – Raistlan did the thing i said nobody did, beat me to it

Thanks for laying it clear – it’s all about getting us in that cash shop. Rather than sell it straightforward, there’s incentives and coercion to spend more money in the cash shop.

Is it still a “cash shop” if no cash is required?

william dj.6953:

over and over I keep seeing comments about the rewards from tp. Been playing it for some time. Even googled and wiki search still not able to find a list of items the tp gives as a reward. Just wondering if someone who keeps saying the rewards from tp would mind to post the link of possible rewards. I just can’t seem to find it. go figure.

Either there is a list of rewards or they don’t exist. But as adamantly as some claim there is, there must be a list somewhere. Need to know what I need to buy to be able to claim or attempt to get the tp to drop that item for me. Is it like the forge? random?

The issue here is that the players bringing up this complaint don’t understand the fundamental differences between rewards generated from events and quests, and profits from the TP. This is akin to saying “Apples grow on trees, and so does milk”. So don’t worry. Any and all complaints bringing up “balancing rewards from the TP” are pure fallacies.

Wanze.8410:

And thats why I actually think that a Dolyak Express would make more sense at this time. In my eyes, alot of dissatisfaction about the trading post/economy is just based on some common misconceptions and missing knowledge of the general player base.
Even if other players try to explain to them how certain things are and why something cant be implemented, they still demand an answer from a dev. And for that, the Dolyak express is the best solution, in my opinion, because players have the chance to ask important questions directly to JS and its easier for him to answer important questions that might get lost in a topic like this. And having answers to those questions enables us players to have a better idea of Anets point of view on the status quo. With that in mind, i think, discussions in a CDI that follows will be way more constructive than a topic like this.

Usually, CDIs are for serious discussions. How do you have one, when the main complaint is that people are jealous because some players know how to make money?

Plus, since the economy is working as intended, wouldn’t a CDI be pointless? Most of the issues brought up in this thread are due to players not understanding how the in-game economy works in the first place. For example:

Complaint #1: I need to make more money. Make it easier for all players.
Side effect: Inflation, since Gold faucets increase for both poor and rich players alike.

Complaint #2: There needs to be balance in Gold rewards for events and TP barons.
Side effect: Since you can’t compare wealth generating events with TP profits, this complaint is void.

Complaint #3: Tax the rich, because they’re playing the game differently from me.
Side effect: TP item prices increase, as taxes are passed down to the poor.

Complaint #4: RNG favors the lucky. Get rid of RNG, and make all items easily obtainable.
Side effect: Game dies. No one cares to farm for items that are common as dirt.

Complaint #5: Mounts. We need them.
Side effect: I spend too much money buying Gems, thus preventing me from paying my mortgage.

CJ just countered the OP with facts, and made his complaint look silly. You must be taking a page out of John’s books.

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

To prove to you that this is a fact, I’ll conduct a small experiment on you. Tell me how much Gold you have free,

265

Smooth Penguin.5294:

and how much total Karma you have available.

1,513,309

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Then tell me which item you want to buy the most (only 1).

Dawn

Which unless the numbers have changed, means that 500,000 or so karma is free and loose, as it takes about 1 million karma to obtain the necessary clovers and friends.

If your method is that guaranteed though, feel free to use all the karma and we’ll just go straight to Sunrise as said item. Either way works for me.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

And I’ll tell you how to get it with guaranteed results. Consider this a gift from your friendly neighborhood Penguin.

Here’s your numbers. Have fun.

Let me crunch my numbers to be sure I give you accurate feedback. I’ll probably have to reply with the results late tonite, or tomorrow.

Gene Archer.8560:

Obtena.7952:

You aren’t actually grasping the reason why the TP as it functions is helpful for the player you are describing.

Again, it’s only helpful if you can actually afford the items. That’s been one of my main points.

Here’s the major flaw to your point. You can afford to get any item you want, you just don’t want to put in the efforts to be able to afford them. Anyone can be poor. Anyone can be rich. The difference here is one is due to non-effort, and the other is due to serious effort.

To prove to you that this is a fact, I’ll conduct a small experiment on you. Tell me how much Gold you have free, and how much total Karma you have available. If you want, you can PM me a screenshot of your wallet, so no one else can see. Then tell me which item you want to buy the most (only 1). And I’ll tell you how to get it with guaranteed results. Consider this a gift from your friendly neighborhood Penguin.

Aidan Savage.2078:

It’s been what? Six, seven pages since JS asked for workable theories about issues on the TP? There’s been none.

/thread

I’m still waiting for the complainers to come up with a valid argument. The common complaints seems to be “RNG doesn’t guarantee me what I want” and “Rich people should be punished”. By nature, that is what RNG is, and jealousy makes people envious of the wealthy. So perhaps it’s just some players can’t grasp the concept of RNG, and just hates that some have more money than others.

Gene Archer.8560:

And I don’t care what you think, either. So hey, there’s something we agree on.

And it doesn’t matter what any of us thinks. The only ones that matter are the people from Anet. Everything is working as intended.

Alas, there’s so many fallacies being spouted here, that it’ll take me a while to name them all. It’s hard to debate a fallacy, so instead, I’ll quote John:

John Smith.4610:

Tears are the source of my evil powers, but not a source of data…………yet.

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Side note – you’re always guaranteed to get something random with RNG. So that countered that whole other point you brought up too.

My entire point is that it’s random. What don’t you understand about that?

I don’t think you understand the fact that “random” does not mean “guaranteed”. It’s like arguing that the sun is hot, or water is wet.

And not to rub salt in the wound, but I got a Precursor as a drop from an Ogre event while running with my guild this past weekend. RNG works.

I ran into a 5 man of Thieves yesterday. Backstabs, bleeds, poison, torment, confusion, blind, etc. Horrible horrible horrible. I think Anet made small roaming teams the new grief meta.

Gene Archer.8560:

~~ snip ~~~

Tons of fallacies here. You have yet to prove anything except for the fact that you didn’t get what you wanted. That, in and of itself, is not a problem.

You have every right to feel Entitled to stuff, but you can’t use that as a basis for your arguments. The “I didn’t get what I want, so it’s bad” argument doesn’t work. Never has. When you come back with some substance that backs your stated issues, we’ll continue this debate.

Side note – you’re always guaranteed to get something random with RNG. So that countered that whole other point you brought up too.

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, all points you make are wrong.

So you can prove that a Precursor will drop before someone has hit their fifth year?

You can prove there’s a way to bypass the Precursor but still craft a Legendary?

Then prove it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If you don’t get what you want, then “RNG is bad”. But when you get a good drop, it’s “The Six blessed me today!”

More like, when a good drop happens in this game: “It’s about kitten time”

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s understandable, since most people don’t understand how RNG works, and why it’s needed.

I don’t think you understand how RNG works, frankly.

But by all means, prove that RNG will pay off and that a Precursor is a guaranteed drop after a year of playing.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If everyone got what they wanted, when they wanted it, this game would die within months of release.

So in other words, to you, the point of RNG is to keep a player playing by -never- actually rewarding them.

Yeeeeeah, that generally leads to burn out and those people eventually stop playing and don’t return. “Carrot on a stick” gameplay only works if you actually award the carrot at some point.

It seems you’re missing a lot of points. I’ll break it down for you.

1) I don’t need to provide proof of anything. I merely countered your arguments that are solely based on your own personal preferences not being met. Burden of proof actually falls on you to prove RNG is bad.

2) RNG means Random Number Generator. In layman’s terms, it refers to “luck”. That means the only guarantee you have is that you’re getting a random number out of the loot table.

3) RNG always rewards something. If you keep rolling on the same loot table, at some point you’ll get “what you want”.

4) The “burn out” you mention is mainly due to impatient players not getting their way. This leads back to the “Entitlement” issues that some players have.

Gene Archer.8560:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Your whole post is based on a fundamental mistake. It’s not that RNG is so bad that it forces us to use the TP. It’s because most players are impatient. Period.

No, RNG is definitely a problem. Period.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Legendary weapons were supposed to take close to a year to get,

And the required Precursor may never drop at all, which means that someone could play for five years and never obtain the Legendary they’re after. A Legendary can not be crafted unless the requisite Precursor is obtained. The only way to bypass the Precursor is to buy the Legendary outright.

That’s not a patience problem, that’s an RNG problem.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Now if you have the patience to wait, and allow the game to reward you with the necessary drops,.

That implies that the game -will- reward those necessary drops with any kind of guarantee. And there is no guarantee, that’s why it’s RNG. Patience is all well and good, but nobody is going to just remain patient forever if that patience never actually pays off.

Again, all points you make are wrong. RNG is not flawed, but rather your thinking of it is. If you don’t get what you want, then “RNG is bad”. But when you get a good drop, it’s “The Six blessed me today!”

It’s understandable, since most people don’t understand how RNG works, and why it’s needed. If everyone got what they wanted, when they wanted it, this game would die within months of release.

Behellagh.1468:

The only problem with RNG is the shear size of the reward table. There is an enormous chance to get low grade gear or gear unusable by your character. That makes the instance of actually getting something your character can use that has better stats seem so rare. That’s why RNG seems worse as you level, there is just a greater and greater chance at getting something “useless” which you salvage, TP or forge.

And if you are fortunate enough to get an exotic drop, it’s likely not something your character can use. There is a infinitesimally small chance that it you just won the precursor lottery if it was a weapon.

Now if they could weight the table so there’s a greater change that what’s dropped is both useful to your profession and of similar or better grade then maybe some of the grousing will go away. To be clear I’m not saying only useful to your profession and only similar grade or higher, just a better change that a player would find it directly useful Vs recyclable “junk”.

One of the problems with this would be that some players will feel forced to play certain professions for certain loot. If I wanted a higher chance at getting Dawn or Dusk, I’d have to loot-stick on my Guardian (as if I do anything different anyway). If I wanted Scarlet’s rifle, I’d have to play Warr or Engi.

CrockyClockwork.4095:

~~~ snip ~~~

To easily counter your arguments:

I have over 130 Transmutation charges, and I got them all for free from events.

I have over 400 UnID’d dyes stored in my bank, and I got them all for free as loot drops.

Moral of the story – play your cards right, and you reap the rewards.

Gene Archer.8560:

Fenrir.3609:

If you are looking for maximum potential earnings via pve (which I assume you are)

I am not, actually. The average/casual player generally doesn’t min/max anything, much less earnings. There just wouldn’t be enough time for them to maximize earnings because it would mean focusing on:

Selling dungeons.
Speed running dungeons.
T6 orientated farming.

Which they either don’t have the skill for, or have the time for. But they have time and skill for other things. But those other things, especially now with the nerfs (I’m counting the scheduled bosses as a nerf for this instance), pay out so little and are so reliant on RNG, that the difference in income potential is huge, whether it’s been minned or maxed.

Fenrir.3609:

Now, since the feature patch, I will say I have noticed a decrease in returns, though given the fact that my sample size since the patch is tiny, that could be (and more than likely is) down to just pure bad luck/RNG.

But see, RNG is part of the problem. In this game, RNG is so….RNG-y that a player could always have that bad luck. Forever. That’s why the TP has such a heavy reliance to begin with. Because the drop rate of items is so abysmally low, to the point where everyone would rather make gold and get it off the TP, because if they don’t, they know the odds are so slim, they’ll never see any specific item, doubly so if they only have a few hours to play each day, if they even have each day.

It’s also why in my original argument I was taking the low end with what you could get in things like JP chests. And if I were to determine income from World Bosses, I’d only factor in the daily rare, and then blues and greens for the chest, because it’s the only guaranteed rare.

Your whole post is based on a fundamental mistake. It’s not that RNG is so bad that it forces us to use the TP. It’s because most players are impatient. Period.

Legendary weapons were supposed to take close to a year to get, but the TP allowed players to do it within a couple months. Ascended weapons and armor crafting was time gated, but the TP allows us to skip the 1-per-day limit on the main T7 mats. Spinal Blade backpieces required you to farm Scarlet events over and over for Assault Knight Power Cores, but the TP allows us to get all we need within 5 minutes.

The Black Lion Trading Post is a tool that allows players to buy and sell on an open market. It’s not an item generating quest or boss event. If you’re willing to pay the price, someone is willing to sell it. Now if you have the patience to wait, and allow the game to reward you with the necessary drops, you’ll save that much money in the long run.

Does this mean BG is now the King-maker? If they’re guaranteed to not have 1st place, then they can choose who they want to win? It would then become a question of who they hate less.

We need matchup forums back. That’ll resolve the issue of these threads.

Wanze.8410:

Rouven.7409:

John Smith.4610:

I actually do have ways of measuring the emotional side, but the forums are only one variable and have to be compared to other sources of data. I would definitely not use surveys or exit interviews as they are massively biased data sources and I personally am not a fan of either in this setting.

Interesting. Are you able to elaborate or give a general example of how this works? How accurate would you deem that way of measuring? I’m sure there are ways to establish patterns and cross referencing them (in-game TP browsing perhaps?) but surely this data cannot be complete, although I assume it will average out over the masses.

At the end of his shift he simply calculates, how much rare weapons have been thrown into the mystic forge. Destroying rare weapons generates players tears. The more rares are thrown in, the more tears. Thats how you accurately measure the emotional side.

But how do you differentiate between the tears of failed forging, and the tears of a successful Precursor forge drop? In order for your results to be scientifically accurate, you need to calculate this difference into your end results, or else you risk contaminating your entire sample.

Here’s the thing. We hardcore WvW players don’t want Uplevels to play on our servers. They’re called “lootbags” or “rally bait” in WvW circles for a reason. I’m not saying that you “can’t play the game how you like”, but rather “I don’t like that you choose to play with us with a weak character where PPT matters”.

Mirta.5029:

EmoDevo.3209:

Actually, the more gold there is in the game, the more expensive items become right? As for the super-rich TP traders, what can you do? The 1% exists even in real life.

60% tax on anyone that’s super rich.

I know people that have 30 000 gold and gladly manipulate it. Gold has been taken out of f the economy, but as long as 1% are there prices will continue to rise instead of falling.

And they’ll pass the 60% back down to people who use the TP. You only hurt yourself.

munkiman.3068:

I finally had time to test a few hypothesis last night, something i wanted to do 20 pages ago. While i did see some minor evidence that “price spiking” was taking place in a few markets, i cannot conclude anything definitive (mostly since i don’t have the tools). While i still firmly believe players are earning profit faster on the TP than most other methods, simply based on watching a few do it, i now feel it’s not as rampant as i initially thought, which is good, i learned some new things!

I do also feel that there should be some regulation in place outside of pure bulk movement of the market. But i digress, as i can’t really solve that, nor can i pin point a problem in the markets current state. Thank you all for the stimulating discussion

Just wanted to point something out. If you’re only looking at a few items over the course of last nite, that doesn’t show anything more than the velocity of the markets. For instance, Linen scraps. Prices for these were jumping roughly 10% between low and high sell prices. A lot sold at both ends. So the spikes were most likely people just paying what they felt it was worth at that moment, based on their needs for the item (either for crafting of flipping).

As a segue into a similar topic, I can convert 5 million Karma into Linen and sell it for huge money. Discuss!

red.2387:

It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if you nerf all the ways of generating money, but leave the Trading Post as is, the only people who will be able to make money are the people manipulating the Trading Post. This is actually worse than letting people farm money with their own labor.

1) This belongs in the Black Lion Trading Co. forums

2) Before you start talking about “economics”, you first must have an understanding of the subject matter. In game economics, there’s a big difference between wealth generating events like farming, and making money from the TP. Farming creates new coin and items that didn’t exist in game, while playing the TP market just trades existing wealth, all while deleting 15% as a tax (Gold Sink).

3) Speculation does not equal Manipulation.

You should consider the fact that your PC is infected with a keylogger. Deleting your account does nothing. I would recommend investing in some anti-virus security progs. Real-time scanning can catch a lot of the bugs you pick up through surfing.

tolunart.2095:

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s common sense. If you refuse to see it that’s not my problem.

I’m 100% sure there is a wealth gap. It’s the result of one method being exponential and the rest being linear. It’s not an assumption. It is reality.

Note that JS never said there wasn’t. There is a reason why they would not want to reveal such. He asked for a lot of busy work for something that he has the answer to.

I’m sorry the truth hurts.

John Smith.4610:

It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.

P.S. Don’t say luxury goods or I will refer you to the first rule of the tautology club.

John Smith.4610:

This is spiraling. Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.

Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.

At this point, we’ve already determined that the complainers have no case. This thread turned into throwing spaghetti at the wall, and seeing what sticks.

Essence Snow.3194:

It creates a wealth gap. That is a byproduct of it.

The wealth gap is created because TP players can make more money than you can. Now the reason why is a different story. Is it because you’re unable to do what they do, or is it that you don’t know how?

If you knew how to do make money, and choose not to, then the wealth gap is your own fault. Let me give you a real world analogy of this thread:

It’s like saying “I could make $100,000 a year by getting my Engineering degree, but I don’t want to go to college.” Then as you work for McDonald’s, you say “Those rich people make too much money. We should tax them more.”

Moral of the story – Everyone has the potential to do well in this game. If you choose not to make the efforts, don’t expect to reap the rewards.

tolunart.2095:

Then all I can say is that you are arguing from a position that is based on mistaken assumptions. You are wrong about what the system as it exists now is intended to do, and seeing problems where none exist.

If you will not answer questions about your position or demonstrate why you know more about the situation than JS, there is nothing to talk about. You and those arguing against “flippers” are simply wrong about there being a problem. The system is working as intended.

I do have to say that JS is a lot more experienced in these matters and generally smarter than I am: he simply refuses to engage in these sorts of conversations, which is the smart thing to do.

I’m quoting this for truth. The arguments thus far are basically “I can’t do well on the TP, so no one should do well”.

On a side note, John PM’d me the reasons why he can’t get too involved into these debates. If he allows me to quote him, I will.

I’m glad I noticed that you moved this discussion to the WvW forums. I’ll just put this as simple as I can: All the traits in the world won’t help you when your lv 30 character fights a fully geared lv 80 Invader.

And yes, every character under 30… in fact…. under 80 is not as effective as a lv 80. If I see an Uplevel marking on someone, that’s the first person I zerg down.

blakdoxa.7520:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

blakdoxa.7520:

Anyone notice how this screws underlevels in WvW?
It’s basically making WvW an “endgame only” thing…

You shouldn’t be actively WvWing for your server if you’re an Uplevel. That just hurts your team’s efforts to win. You should consider leveling up, and mastering the new trait lines so that you can play efficiently.

Yeah and anet says play the way you want…
Personally I hate the PvE in this game with non-fract dungeons being really the only thing I actually want to do. Other than that I can’t stomach the DEs (which have been abandoned/nerfed), running the personal story more than once per race is insanity, crafting the same discipline that you’ve mastered on another toon is both costly and tedious, and mapping the same scenery over and over again is pretty crazy too.

WvW (and to a lesser extent PvP) and dungeoneering are the only things I like at this point.
Before you could have your traits from level 11 and up and you could at least steadily progress each level with the stats and eventually a minor and major trait.

Now it starts at level 30… and for any characters I have under 30, I have no traits. No extra stats. It is solely gear-dependant (“game not about gear” lol). Even then, you only gain stats every 5 levels. At least before it didn’t hurt as much to not be 80, fully spec, geared to the teeth and stocked on food buffs. Now it’s extremely detrimental to carry any sort of uplevel into WvW, especially those without traits.

WvW players get shafted again.

I still don’t see how the new trait system hurts your WvWing at all. From what I can tell, it’s your lv 30 characters fighting fully geared lv 80s is what’s actually hurting you.

At least with this system, there’s a sense of progression. The higher level you get, the more viable your character will be in WvW.

blakdoxa.7520:

Anyone notice how this screws underlevels in WvW?
It’s basically making WvW an “endgame only” thing…

You shouldn’t be actively WvWing for your server if you’re an Uplevel. That just hurts your team’s efforts to win. You should consider leveling up, and mastering the new trait lines so that you can play efficiently.

munkiman.3068:

My suggestion was to slow down the earning potential of the flip.

Basically, what you’re saying is that Anet should punish certain players because they are good at what they do.

What about the TP players who are bad? Take me for example, I lost a ton of money from bad speculations. If the good TP players get punished, does that mean that bad TP players like me get a reimbursement? That would bring balance to the market, right?

crimlet.9872:

Behellagh.1468:

crimlet.9872:

He propose increasing the fee to trades by 1%? It doesn’t really specify that in the OP. If that’s the case, it makes no sense. Why would you want to increase the fees you would have to pay? In fact, it would be nice if the fees were decreased so players can make more currency for the junk we sell.

As a means to punish TP Barons. The logic was flawed.

Punish for what? TP is open to every player. I’m very happy that anytime I get some drop in the field that I don’t want in my inventory, I can immediately throw it on the TP, and get real money for it rather than having to go to vendors every time I full up just to sell it for chump.

This is what we’ve been trying to explain to the complainers. They don’t like that TP players can make money off of others, so they’re trying to formulate a reasoning to punish the rich. It’s more about personal preferences and/or jealousy, than it is with imaginary problems with the system.

juno.1840:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

ValeN.3129:

juno.1840:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

juno.1840:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I got a Rodgort’s Flame as a drop over the weekend, and the price didn’t go up by 200 Gold. Where’s the inflation for my item???

Technically Rodgort’s is also up 30% which is same percentage as with Legend and Dusk. Your problem is it’s 30% on 60g.

But it’s not 800+ Gold like the others. That’s not fair.

This is a discussion of inflation, not fairness — sorry u didn’t win the RNG lottery.

What an inconvenient truth to throw around. Guess he should see it coming.

Actually, the discussion was of the OP’s misunderstanding of the difference between what is Inflation, and what is Speculation.

My original post is a question — not a statement of misunderstanding.

I’ll put your answer in the “speculation” column as opposed to another reason. Thanks for participating.

Actually, your original question was based on your misunderstanding between what is Inflation, and the true cause of the price increase, which was Speculation.

The wording is “striking an enemy from stealth”, not “striking an enemy while Revealed”. Until I can properly test this, I’m assuming Backstab will have 200 more Power.

But still, I love the -50% damage while in Stealth. Now I can take a couple more Meteor Shower hits before I leave my SR circle.

crimlet.9872:

I thought gems bought with game money can only be bought from other players. So the game can’t create gems in the same way it can create items when you buy them at the vendor. Don’t the gems have to come from other players? Meaning that all the gems in the game originated from a player using real cash money to buy them. And every gem for sale is in some player’s account.

Yes that’s true. Gems come from direct purchases from Anet, or through bonuses given by AP rewards, or other type of promotional offerings. But Anet also created a large pool of Gems when the game first started, and placed them into the Gem Exchange. As more players buy Gems with Gold, those Gems removed are never replaced automatically. It requires players selling Gems back to the Gem Exchange for Gold.

So as you see over time, the price per Gem has gone up. That means more players are buying Gems with Gold, than buying Gold with Gems.

Thanks to the trait buffs from today’s patch, Thieves are now strong again!

-Revealed Training: Gain up to 200 extra power when striking an enemy from stealth, based on your level.

-Invigorating Precision: You are healed for 5% of outgoing critical strike damage.

-Resilience of Shadows: Stealth effects that you apply reduce incoming attack damage by 50%.

-Assassin’s Equilibrium: Gain 1.25 seconds of stability when striking an enemy from stealth.

-Bewildering Ambush: Stealing also applies 5 stacks of confusion for 5.25 seconds.

More Backstab damage. -50% damage while in Stealth. Even Confusion on Steal. These alone allow for more variable Thief builds. The only thing better would be to reintroduce Cantha!

The prices are set by an internal formula, based on the ratio of Gem vs Gold existing in the Gem Exchange pot. For example: 50,000 Gems vs 10,000 Gold in the pot = X.

Also, players are not buying and selling directly from each other. All your interactions are with the Gem Exchange. If you want to buy 1,000 Gems, you’re paying X amount of Gold to the pot. Same as if you wanted 100 Gold, you’re paying X amount of Gems to the pot.

As players buy and sell, the ratios change. The more Gems players buy, the more expensive each Gem will cost to the next transaction. That’s why you’ll see prices spike when there’s good stuff in the Gem Store.