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To follow up on DelOnasi’s post, I have yet to find a situation where adding more precision or prowess (crit damage) would give better damage than adding an equivalent amount of power, assuming a 10 power = 10 precision = 1% prowess ratio.
If you want more damage, take more power. If you can’t take more power, take precision and prowess as garnish.
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(edited by Softspoken.2410)
The most frustrating part of the 5 second DS trait is how “On entering / leaving Death Shroud” traits are very likely balanced around you taking those 30 points in Soul Reaping. Deathly Invigoration is the best example, but Spiteful Spirit and Furious Demise are worth mentioning as well.
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They also could have made it be a small area centered just on the foe that downed / controlled you. But they went with a PBAoE, which suits certain play styles (the ones where you tend to be in the middle of things and sticking to your target) just as well.
That’s interesting, since Reaper’s Protection has quite a large AoE radius (I’ve estimated it to be ~480). I am going to try to test Fear to Death when I get home.
480 sounds a little big to me, but not too big. (radius of 360 would be my guess, personally) Either way, tiny probably wasn’t the right word for me to use. It just feels small if you’re trying to stay at range.
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Yes, I’ve done lots of testing with it, and it never seems to work during spvp, but recently I have gotten both of them to work on npcs in heart of the mists, thought i wish the range was mention in the skill because it seems like I’m having to stand right on top of them to get the fear on down to work.
Yeah. It’s tiny, and surprising, but it does make a sort of sense. If the range was say, 600 like unholy feast, it would probably be too huge since it would punish everyone in the fight rather than just the person who CC’d or downed you.
Granted, it doesn’t necessarily hit those people if they apply the trigger from range. But you’d have to make the range like… 900-1200 to guarantee that, at which point it’s just ludicrously big.
If it works on the sparring NPCs in the mists, it should work in actual matches. I don’t know of any bugs/skills that change between those two areas.
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I think that really the only other thing to use Karma on at that point is Obsidian Shards from Balthazar’s temple.
That said, I’d highly recommend experimenting with gear that’s Masterwork 80s if you’re trying to decide on a build. It won’t be as strong, but you’ll get a good feel for if that direction could work. It’s also drastically more affordable to change your mind.
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I didn’t think that they shared a timer, since I’m pretty sure I’ve run both of those at the same time before, just for giggles. (It wasn’t a Fear build I was just sick of things picking on me.)
Just so I’m clear, are you near your opponents when the conditions are triggered? (Controlled, downed) As I recall the range on the trait is fairly small, just larger than melee.
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(edited by Softspoken.2410)
Sounds like a good way to get yourself revealed in the middle of a fight, à la Last Refuge.
Edit: The issue is, this can proc without you realizing it, causing you to waste the stealth opportunity.
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(edited by Softspoken.2410)
Eles have less armor, the same hp, some higher ratios, and still get called one of the tankiest, least damaging professions just because they play that way. Theres no reason you can’t invest a little to do the same. And you won’t be investing nearly the same amount that they have to.
Okay that’s cool, now how does the thief get good uptime on Protection and Regeneration?
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So glad to see it coming back. Hopefully they’ll make a balance pass and reduce health / population / SOMETHING on Veteran Karka though.
It’s entirely possible I’m just not good enough, but those things were a massive pain to deal with 1v1, and tended to be everywhere.
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It’s just me, or this weapon set is still useless? How do you even land larcenous strike? Like “hey, fully booned guardian, I’m dashing all around you for half a second, can you pretend you didn’t notice so I’ll land my new super oh so good 1/2 sec cast move that will leave you boonless afterwards? And please, can you avoid popping blocks after my first dash or even slightly moving around?”
I realize it’s not the point of this thread, but you can Flanking Strike (Even while out of range) -> Infiltrator’s Strike (for the immobilize and to get into range) -> Larcenous Strike.
There’s way more variations than that, of course, but the major point is that you don’t have to use larcenous strike immediately after flanking strike.
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Regarding Molten Weapon Facility, specifically the final fight’s Molten Berserker:
Please add a PBAoE damage component to all versions of his stomp / shockwave attack that hits for slightly higher damage than the actual shockwave, in a range similar to the space he occupies. Stacking inside him so that you don’t get hit creates this bizarre social pressure where people think I’m out to sabotage them by not using that particular exploit.
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90% of the thief population doesn’t like to acknowledge that Body Shot exists, so don’t worry too much about that.
As for Shadow Strike – it’s major purpose is to play keep-away. It puts you back at around 600-750 range so you can comfortably keep auto-attacking without being in your enemy’s face. You’d use it when staying in melee for those 3 seconds of revealed is simply too dangerous.
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Gonna back up Grimwolf because I just tried this (Specifically, Stealth → Dodge roll) and could not see a difference in speed when either my stealth or my swiftness ended first. For bonus points, I also tried it while afflicted with cripple, to see if the bonus speed from fleet shadow was only relevant when your speed had been reduced further, and still saw nothing.
Fleet Shadow is 33% speed, so basically swiftness that can’t be ripped / removed / stolen. Which is worthwhile, it’s just not exceptional.
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Fleet shadow is probably better for getting out of a fight that’s turned against you. 50% means that you can outpace nearly anyone that’s still stuck in combat, and that’s assuming they know exactly what direction you started running in.
Basically: hit blinding powder, run like hell.
Edit: Oop, forgot about the bug Dasorine pointed out below.
I’d say if you have good access to stealth, go for fleet shadow. If you’re running withdraw, or actually use the active on signet of malice, take vigorous recovery.
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(edited by Softspoken.2410)
I’m of the opinion you shouldn’t trait really heavily into two weapons like that. If staff is just a back-up weapon, you don’t need Staff Mastery since you’re going to throw 4 marks and a few floaty hands before you switch to Axe again, so the recharge reduction isn’t as relevant. Try taking 15 points out of Death Magic, then putting them into Curses for Fury on DS so you can make the most out of your bonus crit damage.
If Axe is your back-up weapon, you should take Close to Death instead of Axe Training since you’ll get at least as much use out of it boosting your staff damage on low-health targets.
I don’t have much advice regarding Spiteful Talisman because the choices for your adept major trait in Spite are pretty limited. They’re all a gimmick, and you can make use of most of them, but I don’t think they’d fit your build direction.
tl;dr – Pick one of your weapon sets and bias your traits towards it, rather than trying to split them evenly between the two.
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uh you can jump over the shockwaves, also you can just evade
:|
Sometimes I miss the timing on the jump though, or don’t notice the shockwave in time because there’s four other enemies trying to beat my face in. We are not all Super Players all the time.
As for why I might not be able to dodge roll… Well, I’ll spare you the rant about Necromancers And Endurance.
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From the bug list, under Traits > Curses:
Spectral Attunement: Does not properly increase the duration of Last Gasp (Minor master trait in Soul Reaping.) (28 Mar, 2013)
So it may have changed since then, (Ninja fixes happen in patches sometimes!) but I’m pretty sure that Last Gasp isn’t properly altered by Spectral Attunement.
Edit: Heh wow, you said Spectral Mastery not Attunement. Whoops. I’m testing it now, and it doesn’t appear to reduce the cooldown. (Activate Last Gasp, use a skill with 45 second recharge to keep track of the recharge, enter new fight at around 4 seconds left on recharge, drop to below 50% and stay there without going into DS. Took at least 10 seconds after the skill recharged for it to proc again.)
Really I think Last Gasp just isn’t properly coded to detect these sort of trait interactions, although it should be.
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(edited by Softspoken.2410)
Oh, maybe that’s what’s killing me. It’s not a lich form thing for me, but I tend to strafe constantly no matter what. And yes, occasionally I get 4/5 ticks of damage from the shockwave which drops me to downed immediately.
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You could take a look at the other end of group support and try a control-oriented build. Take 15 in Deadly Arts and shortbow, then make it your self-appointed duty to keep poison and weakness up on every opponent. Combine that with say, S/P for an immobilize, plus cripple and weakness on the auto chain. Between those, headshot (for bosses) and black powder (everything else except Dredge) and you can try and keep your enemies from destroying your friends by just not letting them do anything at all.
It’s not a full build, but it’s a start that you could experiment with for something different.
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Soldier > Sentinel.
You can’t do damage if you’re dead.
If you’re fully equipped in Sentinel gear, you can’t do damage at all.
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There is a bug with Plague. If you get downed while in Plague form, your #2 downed state skill, Fear, immediately gets on cooldown – even if you didn’t fear anyone in the last few minutes.
Hmm… I can’t get this to reproduce in PvE or against sparring NPCs in the heart of the mists. Are you sure you weren’t just hitting 2 right as your opponent knocked you into downed? You can use downed skills before the UI for it comes up, so it’s possible you started casting Fear while trying to use Plague of Darkness.
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It doesn’t do what a lot of thief sets do: it has no built in evades, no access to stealth, and no shadowsteps.
In exchange, you can fire a lot of bullets, and everything you do, you can do from 900 units away. And as Muscarine said, you have access to blinds, dazes and a very affordable projectile finisher, things that can give you a lot of control over a fight.
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Probably a group where everyone is running a support hybrid. Banner warriors, guardians, necros and elementalists with healing-oriented builds, boon storm mesmers, venom share thieves, etc.
It would be slower, but I don’t care too much about speed. I care more about how with this, it’s likely that nobody in the group would ever die, since they would be running around with a collection of fury / ~20 might / protection / 100% regeneration.
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Polite reminder that initiative is also a profession mechanic for the thief.
It may be unique to the Thief, but it really doesn’t apply here at all since it adds nothing new; it simply replaces an existing mechanic. And it’s actually much, much weaker mechanically than recharges in return for some extra versatility.
Other classes can use every skill on their bar, switch weapons, use every skill on that bar, switch again 10 seconds later and likely use many of the cooldowns on that bar again etc.
Thieves can use half the skills on one bar in succession, and get very little use out of ever weapon swapping.
On top of that, each Thief attack, despite being used less frequently, actually does LESS damage than most attack skills from other classes. Not more. Because oh God, they can use the same attack 2-3 times in a row! …..Followed by nothing at all for a bit.
Not gonna argue if initiative is good or not. In my experience, if you’re on the Thief forum initiative is overly restrictive, and according to most other profession forums it allows them to spam their skills too easily. So I can’t take either side entirely at face value any more.
But I am going to argue that initiative is a core part of thief design that extends to a lot of their play style, so the post implying that thieves only have a 45 second cooldown for their profession-specific mechanic grated on me.
Personally? I’d be good with storing a few stolen items on F2 – F4, with the caveat that anything after the first item had to be used within a certain timeframe, or that stolen skills now uniformly expire after X seconds.
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The initiative recharge rate thing sounds like a grand idea…
I made that suggestion in the thief forum months ago, they weren’t that excited about it….
So out of curiosity, I went and found it. Page 37 of the Thief Gameplay Megathread, I’m disappointed (but not surprised, that thread is just… Kind of a runaway train of chatter) that the idea didn’t hold many people’s attention.
that’s funny, you were hoping there would be no post so you could call me on it weren’t you?
cmon be honest…
Full disclosure? I wanted to see if I had posted in support or against the idea when you had fielded it, since I haunt through the thief forums from time to time and wanted to be consistent. But I haven’t bothered with that thread since about a week after its inception, so I missed your post completely. I can’t help but feel like I’ve posted an opinion about it earlier, but I can’t see it.
Oh well, in any case, I feel like making chill reduce initiative regen would be a good way to make chill stronger as a ‘lock-down’ condition.
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That sure was a burst of unwarranted vulgarity.
Technically it was Sophisticated As Hell.
But seriously dont use signet of spite…
Not really. Sophisticated as Hell is when you’ve managed to establish a sophisticated formal tone or context before you blow it all to hell in a moment of juxtaposition.
The best you had there was either ‘combination’ or ‘post leveling’.
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The initiative recharge rate thing sounds like a grand idea…
I made that suggestion in the thief forum months ago, they weren’t that excited about it….
So out of curiosity, I went and found it. Page 37 of the Thief Gameplay Megathread, I’m disappointed (but not surprised, that thread is just… Kind of a runaway train of chatter) that the idea didn’t hold many people’s attention.
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
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Or use easy combo like “Active Signet of Spite + Epicdemic”
Please do not use this combination post leveling or ill find you and proceed to slap you with two undead rat, leftover dinner of a charr and a demonic black sperm from the stygian pits of the underworld after shoving a Turkey with a phallic shaped bone sticking out of its head in your behind.
That sure was a burst of unwarranted vulgarity.
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Honestly, I’d gratefully accept chill reducing the speed at which initiative regenerates, which I think would be a closer match than increasing initiative cost. Having chill push it from 1.33 seconds / ini to 2 seconds / ini could really help lock a thief down.
As it is, thieves aren’t actually immune to chill. Their utilities, heal, and elite will all have their recharge increased, not to mention how much the 66% movement speed reduction can cripple them. They don’t have recharges on their weapon skills, but there are still strong effects there.
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It’s nice, but I wouldn’t base a build on it.
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Focus skill4 cooldown bug when have “II spiteful tailmans.” 20%CD on focus.
Skill4 have18sec CD from no traits.
BUT
Skill4 with traits still 18sec.(Tooltip said14sec.)
Yep. Already noted. (Trait bug > Spite > Spiteful Talisman)
Good work :-) What Mk II means?
Fancy seeing you here! It just means “Mark 2”, as in a second version of the original.
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Polite reminder that initiative is also a profession mechanic for the thief.
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- well of darkness (blind the enemy to…not interrupt you when u stomp? doesn’t make sense in many environments, could be helpfull sometimes tho)
- necrotic traversal/spectral walk stomp (sorry, i didnt get that. we can stomp and then while we stomp port away to not get interrupted and the stomp still works? or what? I’m confused, clarify plz)
Blind stops enemy-based interrupts on your opponent’s downed kit (Effective on everyone except thieves, elementalists, and I think mesmers, who run away / out of range instead of interrupting) so it will frequently block one attempt at stopping you, which might be the only attempt available.
As I understand it, NT / SW works like so: Cast flesh wurm far from your opponent. Get in range of the stomp, then use spectral walk. Start the stomp, immediately use necrotic traversal. You are now 1200 away from your target, safely out of range of most interrupts, still channeling the stomp. After about 2 1/2 seconds (before the stomp completes) use spectral recall to teleport yourself back to your enemy immediately before the stomp animation ends.
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I hate to change the subject for being rude, but regardless of what the devs or frequent forum posters may intend, do many people here take issue with the performance of the downed state on Necros?
It seemed to be working terrifically for me although I didn’t really run the numbers on it so much as just compare it to how I felt playing it versus my experience with the downed states of other classes. I suppose starting with a higher vitality and then being able to heal yourself with more than just bandage probably obscures the size of the hp, to say nothing of my personal build choice having healing power and terror. Definitely, compared to my ranger’s sometimes roulette skill Chance for extra healing or my thief’s tiny hp my necro seems less frustrating to me while downed.
Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t.
In terms of PvE, if I’m up against something that’s not great at doing damage, I can stall for a rather long amount of time. If it’s something that is just going to keep chewing my face or plant AoEs on me, I’m ruined. Overall I feel like it’s just okay: in my mind, downed state is for finishing off those fights that you Should Have Won but got dropped right before you finished off your opponent.
If you’re running Terror or Bloodthirst, you do have a pretty significant advantage on the ground though, I’ll admit.
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No, making a lower CD lowers the skill cap; there is barely any punishment for being bad already.
Focus 5 is the same thing, it is supposed to be a hard to hit ability.
Oh ya? Then whyd they give flanking strike/larc strike for thief lets you steal boons. The casting time of of focus 5 is too long. 1&1/2 seconds is horrible. 3 energy for an invul/evade and then 1 energy for a boon steal? How is that ‘not’ easy. Its also way better than focus 5 doing damage for more boons stripped. Not to mention it can be spammed since its energy dependent like all other thief skills.
Because different classes, different abilities?
To start with, one of them activates at 900 range.
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At first / at base, a lot of the virtues aren’t quite worth using, and instead are better left as passive bonuses. They tend to shine in groups though, from the very start.
A few use situations for solo play:
Use F2 if you’re really low on health to try and buy enough time for your heal skill.
Use F3 to block a big attack that you can’t dodge or block. Even though the recharge is a lot longer, having the Aegis proc once every 90 seconds for the Big Hit (especially things like knock-downs!) is worth more than having it proc twice in 90 seconds on tiny hits you don’t really care about.
Beyond that, you’ll find that how Virtues play can change significantly depending on what traits you have for them. Things like extra boons when you use them, or having F1 refresh its recharge whenever you kill something, can make them a lot more active.
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It’s never struck you that the design of P/P might be that you have to sacrifice the utility of the other skills to use a big damage skill like unload? It’s how the dagger sets work.
Which would be fine if Unload was good enough to justify it. Unload isn’t some big short-term burst skill though, it is a mediocre and nearly sustainable damage skill. You end up giving up everything (utility, survivability, AE capability, and damage) for … the ability to attack things at a whole 900 range?
Yeah but don’t worry guys, putting more damage on Vital Shot will fix that.
(I agree that Unload is not quite good enough, though honestly it feels close. I should have quoted Einlanzer’s post to make it clear I was replying to him specifically.)
Edit: I’ve been thinking about it a bit more, and I think adding an endurance regenerating mechanic to Unload, such as 2-3 seconds of vigor on finishing the channel, could be a way to give it more survivability and fit its current playstyle. I don’t want to resort to stealth since I feel like there should be a few stealth-less sets in the thief’s arsenal.
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(edited by Softspoken.2410)
Or maybe ranged weapons are just supposed to do significantly less damage on their #1 skill than melee weapons, and mesmer greatsword / rifles / ranger shortbow are just overtuned.
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You’re definitely going from one end of the spectrum to the other. The thief is extreme mobility at the cost of being fragile by default if you do get pinned down. The necromancer is quite durable by default, with the cost of being easy to pin down with control effects.
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It’s never struck you that the design of P/P might be that you have to sacrifice the utility of the other skills to use a big damage skill like unload? It’s how the dagger sets work.
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Exactly, anyone that doesn’t take cover gets downed in just a few shots. So running all the way down the corridor, right in the fire of those bandits, just to blind them once… that’s just a recipe for instant death.
You’d need a ranged blind of sorts. Because necromancers can’t deflect anything, and their Spectral Grasp doesn’t work in most of CM. Necromancers are really out of luck in that entire dungeon.
You could just fire dark path, then duck back under cover while it flies. The instant the teleport lands, you cast Well of Darkness.
Granted, you’re still stuck directly beside those enemies, which may not be where you want to be.
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I feel like the guardian hits the cap of effectiveness with condition damage too quickly. Since there’s burning and nothing else, once you have 100% uptime on multiple targets (Hint: Torch + Radiant Fire to start) you can’t improve it much.
The extra application can become relevant against opponents that keep cleansing, or where your opponents keep switching, but other than that, a condition build just caps too easily for a guardian.
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I’m… Honestly not sure. Maybe I should add it to the list, since it is rather inconsistent.
Skills that reference ‘stealing life’ and the like don’t add damage proportional to the healing, but traits and runes do. I’ll put it up there.
Wait no, Vampiric Rituals heals for about 40, but only deals 10 extra damage. Urgh. I’ll note them both but I’m really iffy on calling them bugs.
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(edited by Softspoken.2410)
Signet passives stop affecting you as soon as you enter Death Shroud(with an unused signet slotted)
Consistent with other transforms. [shrug]
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Virtue of Courage is your ‘save your group from this one-shot’ button. Consider using it on things like Kholer’s pull (not the spin, the pull) since having an Aegis randomly proc on yourself once every 45 seconds probably won’t save you, but just block a standard attack you would have preferred to tank anyways.
For a while I ran a build with high condition damage and Renewed Justice (for levelling in PvE) which, combined with the might on VoJ trait, helped me churn through most mobs like they were nothing. I’d recommend it if you want to press that button frequently.
Also, if you’re in a dungeon group, use VoJ every time it’s up. The 25 seconds of burning from your group is going to be greater than the possible burn procs you alone could pull off in that 30 second time frame.
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I believe they do more damage, yes. It isn’t % of their damage, it is a flat value that heals you, but also does damage to the target (ignores armor as well).
Have you tested this belief? I don’t see why the damage output would increase…the skill says nothing about that…
Life siphoning mechanics in general (Vampiric precision, Vampiric, Siphon runes) do an equivalent amount of damage to the target and healing for the player. So every minion attack could gain 79 / 114 (depending on if you have bloodthirst) damage.
Just tried it in Heart of the Mists, and they don’t seem to gain any extra damage. At the least, they don’t cause an extra “114” or anything to pop up. Edit: It also takes it the same amount of time to kill a Large Golem with a bone fiend (whose damage should shift from around 140×2 per attack to 250×2, so it would be very noticeable if it worked similarly to other siphons.)
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
(edited by Softspoken.2410)
I think the bigger problem is that the swarm of Fly?black dots takes about as long as a spectral grasp to land, as in you could go afk, make tea, have a nap, make all of the known world wonders from lego that get destroyed in movies, sit back in you chair just to see the projectile land/miss 1 cm away from the enemy.
Dagger 2 has the problem of being a fixed beam channel (unlike life transfer) and Focus 5 has the same invis projectile thing with CB and Epidemic going on.
1) Yes. Deathly swarm has an incredibly slow travel time.
2) On the bright side, once you start life siphon you don’t have to keep facing your target: they can run behind you / you can run directly away from them and the channel will continue.
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
The major reason I don’t consider ricochet in my builds is because I’m nervous about stray shots hitting and pulling attention from mobs that I don’t really want looking at me. It’s the sort of thing I’d like to turn on or off, or have on all the time and just be able to change my playstyle a little and trust it.
They could try making ricochet 100% and lowering the damage of the second shot, but they’d also have to make sure that the secondary effect from any of the possible shots were weaker too. Body shot would stack less vulnerability, head shot would only blind on the second target, not daze, vital shot’s second hit would have a shorter bleed, etc.
It wouldn’t make pistol a great multi-target tool (that would still be the shortbow, and I don’t see a good reason to try and change that, really) but it would give it free damage whenever there was more than one thing attacking you, which is one of the biggest weaknesses of pistol sets.
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
Something about Dagger 4: the last time I checked in PvP, it removes 3 conditions on the first bounce, then gives those conditions to everyone it hits. But in PvE (and probably WvW) it transfers 1 condition to every target it hits, requiring 2 bounces / 3 targets before it removes 3 conditions from the player.
What people are seeing may not be related to that, but it’s a bit of strange behavior I thought you might like to know.
As for the others, I know that if you’re directly on top of your target, it’s very easy for them to either flank you enough that they’re out of the attack zone, or even move directly behind you: you may just be getting counterplayed.
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.