Guild Wars 2

i don’t care about dueling but i don’t see why they don’t introduce it in heart of mists, somewhere near those training dummys

tigirius.9014:

Three reasons not to have dungeons in a game that’s supposed to be about DE metas.

gear elitism
level elitism
required knowledge about every boss fight or encounter prior to running the dungeon the first time.

Seems to me it would make things alot better for this title if they’d just return entirely to their manifesto and be done with it.

and one thing that ppl don’t mention – lack of tutorials. I mean i know when i started playing, many things were not explained properly (some traits still have this issue acording to wiki)
so maybe they should introduce some “easy” mode of explorer dungeon for new players to learn mechanics of it
but for fotm 20+ there are no excuses

For me Neverwinter (Nights) is one of the best, if not the best RPG ever, but for MMO Guild Wars 2.

lothefallen.7081:

What i don’t get is that players complain regardless of whether the meta needs 4 warriors and a mesmer for speedclear or 4 warriors and a healer. If you don’t want optimal build setups and team comps in a social environment where the kaleidoscopic nature of your (human) being is shown to you in other players, maybe MMOs aren’t for you.

I for one think that the casual / console player has ruined a lot of opportunity for good design in this game. If they didn’t focus so much on appeasing everyone, especially the people that just up and leave the game,we’d maybe have more solid combat roles and depth.

I think that the players that complain about elitism just need to reassess the nature of MMO gaming. If you want everyone to be the same and equally viable, why don’t you just play a console RPG where no one cares what you do with your character or a fighter game where everything is the same except for flavor and aesthetic (what GW2 is becoming)?

The parallel in real life is the person that wants a high paying job but doesn’t want to work for the college degree required to obtain the position.

You don’t have to have a job, but if you want to function in society, you kitten well better try and conform.

Same as in MMORPGs, which are microcosms of the population’s psychology. Maybe you want the social interaction that a console game can’t provide, but you don’t want the social trappings that go along with people and the nature of our being. Seems to me that these people would be compared to the minority in society rather than the majority.

Maybe MMO gaming just isn’t for you, not that i condone hatred or gating, but if you can’t comprehend what i just said, CoD is that way ->

You have some nice points.
And after all this is just a game, if i want to hang out with my friends casually i will just go outside but when i go online i wanna play with guys on my lvl (and i am nowhere near pro or elitist, i learn from better just like everyone else who wants to be good) unless i have some spare time so i can help new player (mostly from guild if they need help)

Enundr.9305:

Sovta.4719:

It’s simple:“Learn to play or go away (from dungeons).”
Instead of buffing/fixing some classes they just nerf everything else.

lol , like ranger pets/ necro minions? =)

yes
necro was my main and i have ranger (for wvw mostly) but lately i run dungeons only with guardian
they even nerfed necro (fear)

adam.8692:

I have similar feelings towards this subject. I would never wear MF in dungeons unless all of my teammates would do the same. It’s just sign of respect- why should I benefit more by contributing less?

They should make harder dungeons make better drops, so you have to bring your best to do it. Not like this, people just grind easiest dungeons like bots or they try to leech others.

Some things are little diffrent after 10+ (harpy with knocback) but basicly that’s it, at higher lvls you just get more mobs (that are thougher), harder agony and better loot.
On gw2 wiki in update section it says they anounced new fractals being worked on, not sure if it’s true but probably is.

I would like to hear offical response about this and why is MF even there in a game that is supposed to be “casual friendly socializing whatever”.

Star Ace.5207:

Sovta.4719:

And why do you say there are no roles in this game? Just because arenanet advertised that?

There are no roles, but people are so used to them that they keep mimicking them all the time. Therefore they invent these alternate “trinities” and stuff. Some even say that there’s only one role: “DPS”… which is silly, considering the amount of options given to all players in all professions that are not 100% damage focused (I.E. the developers didn’t intend for “DPS” to be “the only role”-some people just want to DPS, which is OK if they don’t force it on anyone else under such false assumptions.)

As for MF and AR, honestly: LFG, fractals level X, please no MF gear, AR: (insert reasonable level.) It’s not perfect, but better than the proposed alternative. Inspect gear may partially “solve” your particular problem, but it won’t stop elitists from rejecting YOU for not having Berserker’s gear if that’s what the group-think happens to believe is the most “efficient” way to tackle this or that dungeon/fractal.

There are roles, if no roles nobody would know what to do.
Check spvp for second, all good teams need bunker and arenanet said that (i’m not sure about this, but alot pvp players quote it) spvp won’t be focused on bunkers.

laokoko.7403:

Bunmaster.9734:

If the boss was healing, it has nothing to with dps. None at all. The bucket-guy was early/late.

Ya, that’s the main problem. The bucket guy did missed a bunch of it. But I think if my dps isn’t so lackster I might be able to make up for it.

Not that I think condition necro do bad damage. Just that I’m not sure condition damage got boosted from the boss having lava pulled over him. Since it appears my dot is still ticking for very small damage.

And thanks for Sovta to tell me to use boon removal, I’m not sure what that is, but I’ll give it a try next time.

I meant Corrupt boons (that skill transfers all boons/buffs (protection, might) on enemy to a condition (might to weakness i think and so on), its good against dredge champion that has protection=takes 33% less dmg) or Well of coruption (witch has big cooldown, but can be reduced with trait)

I don’t have berserker, for me biggest poblem is AR and MF. I mean if you try to be your best and one guy just try to GET best (talking about MF), don’t you feel little scammed?
And why do you say there are no roles in this game? Just because arenanet advertised that?

You will now get tons of rage posts how you are elitists, how everyone can play the way he wants…

Star Ace.5207:

Sovta.4719:

Zenyatoo.4059:

Its a good feature, and anyone who talks about elitism needs to get over themselves.

Lets run through some hypotheticals:

You join a group for fractals. They inspect you and find you dont have enough AR. They ask if you forgot to equip your rings. If you cannot equip enough AR. You get the boot.
This is fair and just. While a skilled player can make up for a lack of AR, you are trying to get the party to take you on faith that you are skilled enough. This isnt fair to the other 4 people. No one should have to rely on the idea that a PuG is skilled.

You join a party for CoF farm. They inspect you and find that you arent running zerker gear. They ask you to switch and when you cannot they kick you.
This is fair and just. Part of the CoF farm is doing it as fast as possible, this means zerker gear. Yes a skilled player may still outDPS a non skilled one, but that doesnt mean you can, and your party again would have to take you on faith of your abilities, which they (quite correctly given the standard of most PuG’s) wont.

You join a group, they inspect you and find you dont have exotic gear. They kick you.
This is fair and just. Exotics do make a serious difference. I really shouldnt have to explain the basic process by now.

Complaining that you will be kicked by parties is honestly entitlement. You are demanding that parties take you because you perceive yourself to be just as strong/capable as people who have natural advantages over you due to their gear. Even if you were correct (and you probably are not. As gear is easy as balls to obtain, so if you cant get a proper gear set, then you probably arent as good as you think you are) you are still demanding that 4 other people take you on your word, and be prepared to carry you if you’re wrong. No one wants to do that.

The argument is self-defeating.
Take a party of full exotics, and one in not full exotics.
Do you honestly believe the not full exotics party will clear just as fast and as easily as the full exotic party? If so then you dont have a problem, simply form parties specifically for not full exotic players and do whatever it is you need to. If you dont believe it will be as fast/easy then you know exactly why people would kick you for it.

Elitism is just entitled whiners complaining that every party should cater specifically to them, despite them not meeting (the absurdly easy) requirements of that party.

Also holy kitten being able to just right click someone to view what awesome looking armor they’re wearing would be sweet as all heck.

Finally someone who can think.
It’s not fair to inspect your gear, but it’s fair to make other 4 guys carry you.

As if somebody in Berserker’s won’t necessarily be “carried”. He/she may be using the gear just as a means to get a group, not because he/she is “awesome.” So many ways to play other than Berserker’s friends.

Berserker’s only people can be so close-minded and intolerant. I mean, it’s totally FINE to love and use Berserker’s, but why isn’t it fine for others to use whatever else? Hint: strict use of Berserker’s gear doesn’t make you any sort of GW2 “elite” player-just elitist, for wanting (more usually, forcing) others to use it in order to be “more efficient”; nothing else will do for your type.

No offense, but the intolerance is rather offensive.

Dude, i play guardian focusing more on support then DPS, having 2 gears if needed, switching utilitys according to my party and NEEDS of my party.

DOW Mageski.2097:

I am against this as everyone has there own build and might have odd stats on there gear , but if it works for them then it is fine.

If it works for them they can play solo.

Pandemoniac.4739:

It would be better to be able to see badges of some sort for accomplishing different dungeon related things. Gear is the worst way possible to judge the effectiveness of a particular player in GW2. Yeah fractals are special because of the agony mechanic, but it still comes down to guessing when you’re putting together a PUG, and of all the clues you have, gear is the worst indicator of performance.

I’ve better luck judging player effectiveness for PUGs by looking at the names they chose for their character. I also give put a check in the capable column if a player starts asking other folks what they’re bringing to the table build-wise so they can adjust their build to fill in the gaps.

I agreewith this.
Sometimes achievement points show you how experienced is someone and DM title. But we still have problem with MF leechers, it’s selfish and i don’t see point in MF gear anyway. (just give MF buffs like food, boosters, no gear/runes/sigils)

My main was necro for 3-4 months, i also have ranger that i not use that much (WvW only) and guardian, guardian can just bring more then they can in dungeons, even if i didn’t play some fight good. Guards can also make some fights much easier (FotM golem, whole fractal is easier with guards – wall of reflection, shield, stability)

http://lopezirl.com/2012/12/19/a-condition-necromancers-guide-to-pve/
this is good, i change now and then little things but basicly i run this

Every profession can bring good dmg but warrior is best and every profession can bring good support but guardian is best, so yea classes are imbalanced.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Complaining that you will be kicked by parties is honestly entitlement. You are demanding that parties take you because you perceive yourself to be just as strong/capable as people who have natural advantages over you due to their gear.

Don’t you think that the players that are there to leech off of other folks are going to put on the gear that gets them the most acceptance into a group?
[/quote]

Don’t you think we won’t find out in dungeon?
And yes, you can tell by gear if someone did FotM.

Bunmaster.9734:

laokoko.7403:

I understand. Problem I have is my condition necro have no power and direct damage.

So in certain situation, where you need direct damage, “structure or last boss of drege fractal”, my necro isn’t doing any damage.

I had to leave a pug for a better dps last night for the reason. My group arn’t doing well and the last boss of dredge fractal keep healing. In the end, I accept I’m part of the problem and leave for a better dps.

If I known I can switch character mid fractal, I’d go to my warrior.

If the boss was healing, it has nothing to with dps. None at all. The bucket-guy was early/late. The team wasn’t snaring him when he was on the black patch. Or they are snaring him while NOT on the black patch. Someone was kiting him off target. Or ppl go off and die. Or your team wasn’t able to interupt him while he heals. Bucket-guy doesn’t see red circles, die to agony. Etc Etc.

When the boss is healing, dps is the least of your concern.

Also necro is great at dredge, use boon removals, and it’s easy to stack bleeds on last boss cause we are good at range.

It may be though first few times on lvl 10 but you will get used to it (it was pretty easy for me as necro (use DS) or guardian (just heal))
You will get many rings if you continue to do FotM so don’t waste laurels on rings, buy amulet.

Try rabid gear on necro, use epidemic, blood is power. You have also some nice AoE skills for support.

It’s simple:“Learn to play or go away (from dungeons).”
Instead of buffing/fixing some classes they just nerf everything else.

runeblade.7514:

eisberg.2379:

I have been kicked from many many groups for not knowing boss mechanics, I just shrug it off. I prefer to learn about boss fights by actually learning about them in game, by doing the battles.

Good going! That is the spirit!

But if you are terrible in my group, I will still kick you.

:D

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

CoRtex.2157:

How can they learn? Youtube? Wiki? Friends? Guild? The problem is that their is no room for good players (elitists). Even top players got banned for finding something smart in the game. That’s also why on the most popular streaming website twitch, that gw2 has 200 viewers and elitist games 2000-50000 viewers. Also they will never be an esport this way, like they wanted. At the end of the day, anet just screws them-selfs. They created a skill-less grind money game. Well, then they don’t diserve to be a great game. I played gw1 soooo much, i loved it. If they create gw2 like this, i’m glad that so many players quited the game + they aren’t an esport game. If they keep the game like this, they won’t get far as a company.

First, please proofread your posts, it’s hard to make out what you’re trying to say.

Second, I get the idea you’re pulling those Twitch TV numbers right out of someplace dark and cramped. Especially because you’re not naming competing games.

Third, GW1 was an entirely different game, with entirely different mechanics, and a whole pile of problems. It never could be an e-sport either. Was it a great game? I dunno, I liked it. Is GW2 a great game? I dunno, I like it. How do you measure a “great game”?

Lastly, I think it’s in poor taste to wish people failure because you don’t like what they produced. If you don’t like it to the point you want to trash it, then walk away. Walk away, and go find something else worth your time. You’re not doing yourself any good dwelling on it, and you’re burning up your limited time dealing with something you don’t even like.

Unfortunately he is right. Don’t get me wrong, i wish this game to be great, i wish they fix all these issuse so BOTH sides will be satisfied, but for now this game is not really that skill based (with is also how it was marketed) but grind based.

That is why LFG site now has speedrun and experienced only options.
They will probably make it ingame one day, so you will either learn to play or argue about it in queensdale chat.

Pirlipat.2479:

Isn’t the “problem” you describe related to random groups? People grouping up always seem to expect that everyone in a group has the same abilities, similar gear and the same dedication but how can you expect that?

This somehow goes for both “groups”. So why don’t you guys talk in advance. I for my part would prefer to know in adavance if a group is expecting me to know all mechanics etc or if I’m given the time to learn. It is also a bit strange to expect people to change their skills etc. in between. It might happen that someone is not familiar with all his classes mechanics, that he needs some time to try out and a dungeon run is probably the worst oportunity to do so. If you don’t have the patience do deal with the “carebears” like the TO called them then don’t go PUG.

When it comes to dungeons I’m pretty nooby and I personally stay away from this kind of groups because the last thing I need in an unfamiliar environment is someone who is frowning about every single step I do.

But that’s it, it appears you want to learn.
If i like to play necro pets it’s ok in open world, but if i try to use it on Lupicus in Arah it is NOT ok, cause we will probably fail just cause of my minions. If i don’t want to change it, my party WILL kick me.
I don’t see why sometimes someone doesn’t want to change ONE utility for the whole PARTY benefit. Who is selfish there?

Morrigan.2809:

The game was marketed and sold a s a game who respects the fact that you have real life commitments and as such you can choose how to play.

Well that is not this game anymore, with FotM (agony) and all these speedruns that they don’t want to change.

Can somebody explain what “elitism” is? Cause lately if you are not noob you are more likely to be labeled as “elitist”. Oh, you know how to do FotM? Elitist. Oh, you are full exotic? Elitist Oh, you found about some great build and wish to help in dungeon by using it? Elitist
Elitism is something that noobs made up so they can feel better about self. I could cry now about spvp elitist that want r40+ for tournaments but i don’t cause i know they spend time to LEARN game and are better then me.

Then move on, why are you commenting?

Poledo.3256:

Sovta.4719:

Poledo.3256:

Sovta.4719:

Carrying someone means ressing them 20-30 times, in fotm usually cause of little AR.
Or maybe Skyrim is for you, cause you don’t have to be good team player there. Only make sure to put easy mode.

Don’t get your panties in a knot because I am right. You are a small minority of the small minority if that’s what it means to you. I doubt it though. Stop pugging or stop crying. If you can’t find friends to play with then as I said offline games may be best for you.

lf2m arah p3. experienced only
lf last guardian fractals 20 daily (self invit)
LF 2M heavy fratal 18 ^^
LF1M Warriors CoF p1 farm!
warr LFG arah path3,2 experienced group only
LF1M frac12+14 war/guard only =) heavy-way!
yea, i am minority

Looks like you are, those people are online playing the game and having fun it seems.

I’m doing spvp as i type, but most of the players are like you so its easy.
And yea, they are having fun looking for avoiding guys like you. Would love to see your face when they introduce gear check (and they will, like agony, like new gear)

Poledo.3256:

Sovta.4719:

Carrying someone means ressing them 20-30 times, in fotm usually cause of little AR.
Or maybe Skyrim is for you, cause you don’t have to be good team player there. Only make sure to put easy mode.

Don’t get your panties in a knot because I am right. You are a small minority of the small minority if that’s what it means to you. I doubt it though. Stop pugging or stop crying. If you can’t find friends to play with then as I said offline games may be best for you.

lf2m arah p3. experienced only
lf last guardian fractals 20 daily (self invit)
LF 2M heavy fratal 18 ^^
LF1M Warriors CoF p1 farm!
warr LFG arah path3,2 experienced group only
LF1M frac12+14 war/guard only =) heavy-way!
yea, i am minority

Carrying someone means ressing them 20-30 times, in fotm usually cause of little AR.
Or maybe Skyrim is for you, cause you don’t have to be good team player there. Only make sure to put easy mode.

Zenyatoo.4059:

Its a good feature, and anyone who talks about elitism needs to get over themselves.

Lets run through some hypotheticals:

You join a group for fractals. They inspect you and find you dont have enough AR. They ask if you forgot to equip your rings. If you cannot equip enough AR. You get the boot.
This is fair and just. While a skilled player can make up for a lack of AR, you are trying to get the party to take you on faith that you are skilled enough. This isnt fair to the other 4 people. No one should have to rely on the idea that a PuG is skilled.

You join a party for CoF farm. They inspect you and find that you arent running zerker gear. They ask you to switch and when you cannot they kick you.
This is fair and just. Part of the CoF farm is doing it as fast as possible, this means zerker gear. Yes a skilled player may still outDPS a non skilled one, but that doesnt mean you can, and your party again would have to take you on faith of your abilities, which they (quite correctly given the standard of most PuG’s) wont.

You join a group, they inspect you and find you dont have exotic gear. They kick you.
This is fair and just. Exotics do make a serious difference. I really shouldnt have to explain the basic process by now.

Complaining that you will be kicked by parties is honestly entitlement. You are demanding that parties take you because you perceive yourself to be just as strong/capable as people who have natural advantages over you due to their gear. Even if you were correct (and you probably are not. As gear is easy as balls to obtain, so if you cant get a proper gear set, then you probably arent as good as you think you are) you are still demanding that 4 other people take you on your word, and be prepared to carry you if you’re wrong. No one wants to do that.

The argument is self-defeating.
Take a party of full exotics, and one in not full exotics.
Do you honestly believe the not full exotics party will clear just as fast and as easily as the full exotic party? If so then you dont have a problem, simply form parties specifically for not full exotic players and do whatever it is you need to. If you dont believe it will be as fast/easy then you know exactly why people would kick you for it.

Elitism is just entitled whiners complaining that every party should cater specifically to them, despite them not meeting (the absurdly easy) requirements of that party.

Also holy kitten being able to just right click someone to view what awesome looking armor they’re wearing would be sweet as all heck.

Finally someone who can think.
It’s not fair to inspect your gear, but it’s fair to make other 4 guys carry you.

They should just give you option to see other guild chat.

Winfernal.9208:

Chuo.4238:

My two cents:

A big “NO” to inspecting gear. Every other MMO has that feature. If I want to inspect people, I’ll play those games.

Please try to keep GW2 different from other MMO’s; even if you’ve already started down the slippery WoW-clone slope, it’s not too late to stop.

Terrible logic.

So that’s why some people don’t want mounts or duels either? “Because WoW has it”.

Jesus, get over yourselves. And is inspect an wow-only feature now?

Most of them doesn’t want gear inspect cause of magic find. Remove magic find and 95% of community would say yes on gear inspection.

Red Falcon.8257:

The only way I could agree with inspect is if it was a 2-ways system.
You /inspect a player and he gets a pop-up where he can accept or decline the request.
Should also come with an auto-decline feature for those who never want to be inspected.

This is great.

Samhayn.2385:

Sovta.4719:

Quixal.9124:

Samhayn.2385:

Umm what?

Don’t worry, I am pretty sure Sovta is actually on our side in this debate. He making a parody of the usual elitist talk but exaggerating the snobbery and hostility to make them look bad.

Ok, explain to me WHY is agony in this game then if not for gear check?

To encourage you to join a guild and run the hardest content in the game with people you know and not pug it? Maybe some things should not be puggable?

Ok, link me some guild with 100+ active members focusing on fractals and arah. Thanks in advance.

Well that is my point, we need at least AR inspection. If you don’t have enough AR you will be kicked ANYWAY. This will just save time for all player.
And elitism is already there, just see FotM LFG lvl 30 posts, all ask for AR witch IS gearcheck. Wanna farm cof? See how fast you will find group as warrior and how fast as engi. Hmm, it sounds like some other game, what’s it name again?

Quixal.9124:

Samhayn.2385:

Umm what?

Don’t worry, I am pretty sure Sovta is actually on our side in this debate. He making a parody of the usual elitist talk but exaggerating the snobbery and hostility to make them look bad.

Ok, explain to me WHY is agony in this game then if not for gear check?

Did you guys even heard of Agony? AR IS gear check itself, this will be only faster way.
Like i already said they will introduce gear inspection anyway, only question is time.

Well you can put it like this also:“If there was some kind of braincheck for humans, who would be scared most?”

Samhayn.2385:

Sovta.4719:

YES!!! We need this! If you think we don’t then you are noob. If someone took his time to learn to play and wants EFFICIENCY in dungeon he should not suffer by playing with noobs.

And here is the reason it should not be Implamented. Thanks for summing it up for everyone.

Thank you by showing how good are you.

Takato.4976:

Sovta.4719:

And BEFORE you say i sacrifice DPS for this i have might stacking on crits and perma-fury meaning 68% crit chance, Can comfortably drop theives in both PvP and WvW – with 2 skills – Bolas -> 100 Blades = Dead squishy theif.

I think you lack the pvp experience if you think throw bolas -> 100b actually works on anything, especially a thief. Saying this just plummeted any credibility you could have had.

Warriors are in need of a buff in pvp, they dont lack damage but have no reliable way to actually do the damage on anything. Plenty of threads about this in the warrior boards, you may have a read.

For the topic at hand, Ill take a thief over a warrior/guardian any day, you only see what you’re missing after playing one in the higher level fractal or playing with a good thief.

Cheers.

Talking about dungeons, i’m not that good at pvp and i know thiefs are great there .:)

Nurse.1085:

Because I’m more curious as to where that person is in terms of gear level. I want to know if I’m running with a MF leecher, a guy with 0 resistance, a glass cannon Thief in all Greens, etc.* If you’re a good player who’s honest, you have nothing to worry about.

This! If they wanted us to socialize they wouldn’t give us MF gear in a first place, i don’t care what build or how do you want to play it

Aegis.9724:

Only groups i see asking for gearchecks are cof speedrunners, arah, and 20+ fractals, and inspect would change nothing about them.

Yea right, it won’t change a bit. It’s not like there is some agony or something.

Morrigan.2809:

Fragmentation of player base
Griefing
Elitism
Cookie Cutter builds

Fragmentation of player base – what a hell is FotM, agony and new introduced gear grind?
Griefing – after kicking in dungeon we all grief
Elitism – still here
Cookie Cutter – if you are meaning berzerker builds/gear they suck in harder dungeons (unless you already have premade dungeon team and figure something out)

And what are those?

Sorry if i was rude, but tell me ONE good reason why no gear inspection?

kokiman.2364:

maddoctor.2738:

Konrad.9587:

tl;dr: ANet please implement gear inspect feature. Non-elitists, you will still be able to party with people like you, but you will no longer reduce the effectiveness of elitist runs with your casual builds.

Elitists can ask other elitists to join their group, there your problem is solved.

“Looking for 2 more elitists for dungeon run”… we already have posts like this.

We already have that “no noobs pls!!”

And we all know how effective it is.

Kumu Honua.2751:

Let’s do babysteps.

Inspect gives the following info:

Magic Find%, and Agony Resist.

Then we can expand or not from there.

I can live with this.