Guild Wars 2

Want to avoid cheese and passive play? Want to play a build that isn’t likely to see a nerf? Want a build with some complexity? Don’t want to play a thief? Need it to be slippery enough to slink away from large groups?

One solid roamer build that meets this description in my opinion: Power Mesmer.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8en0nBlphNqB2oBEgilTj68JiirjMA2ggqeav2tF-TVSBQB4R3wDuAAmUJ4CPIAa4IAAt9HyoyPA8AAsk6PbGGAGBhAMzMz0IiICpAEYnF-w

This is my current variant and it hits ridiculously hard mostly from damage bonus stacking. It also has a massive HP pool. The build isn’t really mine but an amalgam of several builds from better players I duel against. Adjustments may be necessary as you play to fit your style.

I vote no more passive defense bonuses and they should roll back a few they added in.

Staff/DP is more effective fighting by a good margin and its mobility is nearly as good as shortbow. All SB really brings to the table is vertical mobility which is potent on some maps. Otherwise it is difficult to move away from Staff/DP or in some cases Staff/PP.

vove.2768:

xD

What is your point? Are you trying to say stealth stacking isn’t a problem? Are you trying to point out some inconsistency in my argument? Are you confused about the topic at hand?

Not that it is relevant here but since it clearly rubbed you the wrong way: I stopped using stealth for two reasons… D/D is a mess and D/P stealth stacking is ridiculous. Those are really the only two weapon sets that stealth well for a thief. If Anet addresses the D/D issues, I will go back to running it. If they remove stealth stacking, I might give D/P a closer look. What I don’t want to play is a low skill-floor weapon set with simple rotations centered around long stealth duration which is exactly what D/P is currently.

Well this weekend went against the grain. Not a single QQ thief tell but about 20 QQ tells from other classes. That is way more than I get normally probably due to the holidays I guess. Oddly this time mostly from Rangers and Warriors. Oddly two different necros were slinging some really nasty Asian oriented insults that don’t apply to me.

Oh and I QQ a lot on our Discord channel so I am not immune from the whining just don’t feel the need to share it with a stranger.

First, stealth stacking needs a massive nerf.

Second, yeah the clone wars are annoying particularly from chronomasters.

DeceiverX is right that Condi Chrono is mostly OP in WvW. The class is easy to play effectively, has loads of defensive counters and has a great depth of play. It is one of the few effective roaming builds that has multiple trait line paths. I play this build and a condi int thief… Condi Chrono is way stronger and much easier to play.

Babazhook is also right that many builds simply don’t need Dire or Trailblazer. Rabid works great for most classes. Clearly not as defensive but that is easily countered in the current meta with class mechanics.

T1 and T2 stay on tag too well. T3 and T4 are prime for “zerg” busting since they are fairly disorganized allowing a smaller group to clean up around a commander first.

As others have noted the game has greatly shifted away from composition and skill to spray and pray with passive defensive builds that do most of the work for the player.

tRex is probably the closest to a remaining zerg busting guild and they use necro bombs to drop 2x to 3x their number.

I think scoring in WvW is mostly pointless but 2-1-1 is just dumb. The dominant coverage ends up winning the round and the two less populated servers go into a why bother mode since 2nd is as good as 3rd.

If they want more score competition make the 1st place server objectives worth more loot.

Tournaments were great for getting PvE players in for a few weeks and stacking servers but ended up destabilizing everything else. We got a surge in population, screwed up the Glicko and then drove consistent WvW players out as the matches were crazy lopsided for months during and after while Glicko adjusted.

kick to the gut on this one. I know it is just one more week but I grow very tired of constantly being out manned in NA Prime.

Justine.6351:

Downed state in a nutshell.

amen

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

And as I’d said, it requires skill to play properly but it can be done. I know when I’m outmatched and I know I’m not an amazing player. But I have tons of success with this build against all types of Thieves and other professions. I agree that it’s easy to be focused down, I almost never win outnumbered fights unless things go just right. 1v1’s I win plenty though and D/P or condition Thieves are rarely ever a threat unless they use Shadow Shot and Head Shot properly. Staff Thieves are the ones that give me the most trouble but in time, I hope, that’ll change.

I want to believe you but thousands of WvW roaming hours and hundreds since HoT on both sides of this tell me different. Since HoT, most vanilla classes are fodder for Dare Devil builds. My recommendation stands for roaming, Druid or enjoy getting destroyed by thieves and condi chronos while roaming.

If you are even in a match against BP, shoot me a tell for a duel. If this build can best my non-staff build, I will happily stop playing a thief.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Dunno why you guys keep bringing up thieves. They’re probably the worst at condi.

They aren’t the worst but I agree with sentiment. I often wonder how so many players manage to avoid condi chrono builds that drop stacks of confusion like a pothead handing out candy on Halloween. They certainly have never been in a duel with a Warrior running Skull Grinder. They clearly have never run into a tRex necro that dumps 25 stacks of bleed and torment along with a ton of cover conditions on small groups as part of their rotation.

Any fix to condi needs to address zerg, skirmish and solo play. IMO this can only be done when condi cleanses are removed and some stat reduces its damage in some way.

Your change does not address its relative uselessness in zergs.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

It still works, it just doesn’t show

I hate when Anet leaves things like this since we know several traits are busted. There really should be a decent saveable combat log to test these traits so we know for sure it is actually working properly and not isolated to a display issue.

MidoriMarch.8067:

and I bet u main Druid.

Because main druids are the most whinners expecting more buffs when class is already facerolling ez & op

As I stated above when someone suggested I was a “bad player” and played some other class, I main a thief 99% of the time these days and I play a lot as in 5k plus WvW hours with more than half of those on a roaming thief. My KDR is respectable especially for a non-stealth hybrid.

vove.2768:

Did you even read what you wrote? xD

Do you understand the difference between stealth and stealth stacking? Stealth is fine as-is and it doesn’t need to be removed or reworked. Field stacking is the broken mechanic. Thieves should be able to Heartseeker through a field and get stealth. They just shouldn’t be able to extend it by going through the same field again.

vove.2768:

^This is why they should rework/remove stealth and similar mechanics. Really great job anet.

They don’t need to rework stealth just remove stealth stacking. At least try it for a month and see if it works. I main a thief and loath stealth stacking so much I completely stopped using stealth over a year ago.

Taobella.6597:

someone pm me other day saying i probably get a lot salt then i spent 5 minutes teaching him how to play better

I try and offer help when they ask and will duel if they ask. Most of the time it boils down to telling them to turn the Auto off their AA and stop being utterly predictable in the rotations.

vove.2768:

I don’t believe you.

Just read your post. It sounds like you got your butt delivered to you on a plate by some low skill thief and you had the urge to tell the world you aren’t bad, but I guess no one will care about it and your “problem”.

If you play on or against BP and roam (Mag or YB if going back years), you have almost certainly run with or into me or my guildmate. We play pretty much everyday for 2+ hours mostly during NA Prime and main thieves 99% of the time. Not saying we are great but we aren’t bad by any stretch.

I typically reply to QQ politely regardless of the salt level and often talk about turtles until someone blocks me.

vove.2768:

As for qq biggest whiners are guardians at the moment. From my experience the amount of guardians who insult you on whisper and block you is far higher than any other profession.

I logged well over 100 salty tells (small sample size) and Guardians are low on the list. It goes Thief with about 80 QQ tells then everything else. That is in WvW roaming, not sPvP, not dueling and not in large groups. I did not count positive or constructive tells and I am not counting multiple tells from a single source.

It could be that thieves know how to whisper across servers easier or that younger players tend to play thieves (speculating).

First, thanks for posting an anti-vanity video… I grow weary of seeing Yet Another Vanity Video cherry picking the fights with crap players.

Second, things went very well in those fights. Any time a player is willing to jump on 3+ his number gets a kudos. Wall warriors have almost taken over WvW.

Third, kitten those DH… am i rite? Not much a player can do against numbers with one of those around. Too much D, too much O and definitely too much Res power.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I have trouble against good staff Thieves with it but otherwise Thieves, even decent ones, are not an issue. You’re absolutely right that it can be torn apart but only if played improperly. As I’d said in the disclaimer, it does require a degree of skill to be successful with. Against good Thieves, I usually need to fight them more with GS than LB, but I’ve met few that have given me so much trouble I couldn’t fight back. Again it’s just staff Thieves that I have issues with but that’s a matter of practice.

Any D/P stealth stacking gank build will be on top of that build before it sees it and drop a Backstab then Shadowshot it or AA it to death. If it misses, it will stealth up, reset and go again especially since the build cannot actually run from it.

Condi thief is either going to stealth to it, steal to it or just use Bandits to close the gap then dump condi all over, watch it run through its utility only to load it right back up again evading the entire time.

Staff is going to evade and blind it dropping big shots as soon as its dodges are done.

Heck even S/P will burn through the stun breaks until a full PW can cycle.

There is virtually nothing in this build an average thief isn’t going to tear apart much less a pack of them. Go Druid for roaming, at least then the player can stealth without having to hit a target, extra big heals, better condi removal and easy ranged damage mitigation.

As I noted a build like this is fierce if they aren’t focused, once a blow up build locks on this build is toast.

Condi issues have nothing to do with Dire or Trailblazer but rather a system designed around all or nothing. Either condi has relatively no effect or it outright destroys a build.

IMO toughness should reduce condi duration, resistance should give partial condi damage reduction, mobility conditions should be recategorized as “impairments” that can only be cleansed with no way to extend them and condi damage itself cannot be cleansed (that is what toughness and resistance would be for).

Thieves send more QQ tells after losing more than any class I fight. For a while I thought it was because I simply run into more thieves roaming, but I started keeping track of the number of tells by class a few months ago. Thieves are nearly 10 times more likely to send a QQ tell than any other class.

Why do you think thieves top that list? Not complaining just curious.

Interesting side note, most of the QQ tells from thieves come from stealth stacking D/P gank builds. I have rarely gotten a tell from PP, SP, PD, etc.

Caedmon.6798:

Yeah people think this is what roaming is about..Run in a group of 8 and chase 2 guys allover the map.Then run or insta die when they see something their own size.

More commonly the eight chase two same guild thieves on comms, get spread out and fall into a turn and burn trap. Suddenly the fight goes from 8v2 to a few 2v2 fights with two thieves skipping off with eight more notches in their belts moments later.

Happens pretty much every night and almost invariably a tell about how “OP” a build is despite the superior numbers.

Shazmataz.1423:

I love Monkey, he is best scout and he cares about his server. Not sure why there is so much hate for Monkey.

Monkey is a great scout save for his one major issue… his constant negative map chat. Monkey: Now with improved team chat for access to rants across all maps.

He is a master troll. He tends to insult the entire server link rather than individual players. This draws several players under his bridge rather than just one player. This in turn spams the chat window with useless trolling from multiple players making actual call outs easy to miss.

At the end of the day, we can block Monkey but it is difficult to block all the fools that fall for his trolling.

They are working as intended. A coordinated offense with greater numbers should be able to take a structure from a lessor force.

What does need to end is splash damage to structures. Catas/trebs hitting dirt and damaging walls allows for too much flexibility in offensive placement particularly with the shield gen capability.

Do not roam that build above in any tier with decent thieves. The first gank D/P or Staff thief will crack that build apart in a couple seconds. Any condi chrono or condi thief is going to melt it.

In a zerg or skirmish seems workable but don’t roam on it.

So long as DH trapper builds remain ridiculously easy to play yet highly effective, P/D is a no go. Even if you can spring the traps on point you still have to cut through a ludicrous amount of defensive sustain while avoiding big ranged shots.

Staff with D/P as utility seems to be the new DPS build. Highly evasive, solid AoE support, vanishes quickly and travels almost as fast as shortbow builds (just not vertically).

Not as optimized as it can be but works nonetheless:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZQQNAoaVnsMBNPhVuBuNBEIiDYiS/nBQBw7hYYH8fRcMiA-TlyCQBoUJIAOkAvQDByOBAU4IBss9HKo6PASfwxeAAVU5HpAgYZF-w

Also don’t be afraid to leave the “Ghost” portion when a target is injured. The build is actually a pretty strong finisher outside of stealth.

Strictly talking PvE, CS is a near must have in my power builds. Invigorating Precision is the cats meow in PvE.

The only hard stat requirement I have found is around a 17k HP minimum. If I drop below that number, I find that survivability goes way down in fights. Basically I need enough to survive big alpha strikes. Everything else sort of morphs from that number depending on the build.

Should have been moved to DA and swapped with Revealed Training. Neither RT or LV make sense in their current placement.

Jski.6180:

Well no it still works its just not perma stealth any more. You would have to become unstealth to land your hits and then you go back into stealth and lets the condis do there work. If the thf dose not know when to land there attks at the right time they will die as they should much like a power thf build. For some reason ppl are giving this build the perma stealth condis dmg thf a pass but if a power thf could do the same thing most ppl would say that is going too far.

It doesn’t work at least not efficiently enough to be dangerous. A thief cannot drop 9 init or 6 init and a dodge every 4s. Without stealth stacking the Ghost Thief simply doesn’t work mechanically.

What makes stealth so problematic is that a thief can basically stack up about 10s of stealth on one Black Powder. This creates problems like the Ghost Thief but also allows a thief to hit from nowhere and disappear a couple seconds later for long periods of time. One 4s burst is counterable, 10s plus of stealth is nearly impossible to pin down.

Basically any set of skills on the thief have to be filtered through builds that appear and disappear for long periods of time. Hence the thief getting nerfed constantly to deal with this OP weapon mechanic.

The macro thing is a non-starter IMO. Sure he could be using one but even if he isn’t the effect is pretty much the same. Goes in, alpha strikes, cuts it into video when it works and leaves out the part where he dies the other few hundred times it doesn’t.

Stealth stacking should be removed completely from the game. Outside of some D/P players, I think pretty much everyone else would enjoy the game more.

Along with that change some thief nerfs should get a rollback at the same time. ANet has basically gutted every thief weapon leaving them overly dependent on condi or D/P.

Jski.6180:

That the thing your not realy reviling them your simply guessing where they are if hitting them would revil them then you have a point but that now how stealth works in this game. Your asking for it to be ok that one class can sit safe in stealth and do dmg (as in most effects are triggable the sec they are used and not on a real delay) effects that only need one combo to be effective vs other classes and builds who need to be able to balances attking vs taking dmg at all times (power thf dose it all the time why cant the conid players be asked to show the same skill).

I think you missed his point. The build abuses the stealth stacking mechanic allowing it to remain fully cloaked permanently. If that mechanic is addressed, this build no longer works. If D/P cannot HS and Bound through the same field continually, this build is dead and it solves a larger issue with the thief class as well.

Condi is centered around all or nothing which makes it virtually impossible to balance. They got power pretty much perfect. Routes through armor so it can mitigated defensively and generally requires a trade off between bunker and damage.

If I had my way at the algorithms, toughness (not armor) would reduce condi duration. Resistance would reduce condi damage by a percentage. Neither would have an effect on mobility conditions which I would reclassify as impairments along with stuns. There would be no damaging condi removal skills/traits and I would rebalance those that exist.

Condi should be a damage over time system with defensively minded players able to reduce but not eliminate its effects much like power does currently.

Spartacus.3192:

Guardians as far as the eye can see. (in zergs at least)

We are already there. I estimate 1/3 of the players we fight now are DH in zergs and skirmish. Number drops off a bit roaming but only because thieves make up the vast majority of roamers.

Pretty much every MMO experiences declining populations particularly in PvP. GW2 WvW has gone longer than most with this level of population.

That said, there is nothing in WvW that attracts new players and the learning curve in WvW is pretty steep these days. Not sure how to fix the problem but seems nobody else has really figured it out either.

Balthazzarr.1349:

You must be talking about Monkey. Thankfully he is on DB not BP.

I thought Ajax was on DB and Monkey was still on BP. If they are both on DB, looking even more forward to the relink.

I believe tRex has fought in T1 recently during some links. When running 5+ deep they have little trouble mowing over 2-3 times their number. Their necro bombs are to be both feared and respected. There is no powering them down when the guardians and tempests are playing in their set.

I have fought with and against them (more against) and can say without question they are the toughest skirmish crew actively playing by a large margin. The only guild I steer clear of when they are grouped up… course our guild lights a fire under them when we see them off soloing since it is about the only chance we have of dropping them.

Great build synergy but most importantly disciplined. You don’t catch them over extending for a kill. Guilds like QQ are typically easy to draw out and catch one too far from their pack.

Because much of the forum population STILL hasn’t figured out scoring is a symptom of a problem not the actual problem. ANet can change the scoring to the greatest MMO scoring system of all time and it still wouldn’t matter since at 8AM EST a handful of NA servers are going to be running 50+ players over 10 defenders. Those same servers are going to leave their NA prime players in the opposite position. Neither side of which is very fun… basically WvW is win by numbers 99% of the time.

Several of us long ago realized as long as the “server” system remains in effect, there is no chance ANet will ever be able to fix coverage and ultimately never truly fix scoring.

Having played on about half the servers now, they are basically all the same. The only major change from server to server is commander personalities, general map chat tone and for a time the GvG scene. Now most servers are pug-manded with maybe a dominant guild or two running during certain raid hours.

Some servers like Mag are unforgiving (in a good way) while others like BP are generally positive with some negative players constantly bombing map chat. T1 typically has more zerg discipline and T4 is just a disorganized mess most of the time, but it all works itself out in the coverage wash.

Vanilla Ranger is thief food in roaming. In pairs or more they can be viscous but once they get separated, it is just too easy to get on top of them and condi or power them down. Outside of Necro, vanilla Rangers are one of the easiest kills.

Druids on the other hand have better stealth options, solid bunker capability, decent escape and hit pretty hard when built well. They aren’t in my favorite roamer classes but a solid option in skilled hands.

Burn Guardian should never kill an average player in a Condi Chrono. Their condi removal is strong and typically requires a lot of cover conditions to bring them down. About the only way to kill one is to load them up and then get distance forcing them to shatter early to clear condition allowing for another pass. Even then when played well even that doesn’t work.

The kill you got was either a player that didn’t know what they were doing or one that was asleep at the wheel. Burn Guardians can still sneak up on player since they are still relatively new. Once you’ve seen one though every other fight is super easy cause clearing one condi is childs play.

Low skill floor, virtually no combat weaknesses, massive defense sustain, mechanics no other class has access to (cage skills are OP), best pull in the game and it is the only class that has never really seen substantial nerfs since launch.

The Guardian from year one is pretty much the same front line zerg Guardian seen today. Even after some HoT nerfs to DH the skill floor to play the class well is the lowest of any class in the game. The only thing it doesn’t really do well is solo escape long distance when a fight turns bad, but it can usually make it to a door if one is medium range away or there are other players. The class lives by the old adage a player doesn’t have to be faster than their opponent, just be more of a pain to kill than those around them.

anduriell.6280:

there is a problem with the ghost thief that most players here tend to ignore:

• the traps will pit on you 5 different conditions at the same time

<snip>

The best “Ghost Thief” builds use one trap and it only applies two different damaging conditions. What you are seeing is a Steal (for confusion), runes that apply passive conditions and racial skills that do the same.

As for reveals only one class has a reliable one and that is the Scrapper. All others are pretty spotty for various reasons. Course all classes have access to a stealth disabler.

Stealth stacking is a real problem in this game and always has been. It is not limited to Ghost Thief but that is the build that abuses it the most. Look no further than the D/P thief builds and some mesmer builds for the broken stealth design in this game.

Tomiyou.3790:

Why does Shadow Shot ignore projectile destruction or reflect? I use my Swirling Winds and thief just goes right through. Sure it’s not a big deal on bunker ele, but what about when I’m playing fresh air?

The shot portion is unblockable (hence immune from reflect) and does minimal damage. There are other abilities that share this feature such as Signet of Might and Blast Gyro. The melee portion isn’t subject to reflect but is to block. So if something is blocking, the shot hits, does minimal damage, blinds and proceeds to block the melee attack. Reflect does block 99% of targeted range skills and often has many a build sitting around waiting it out so lets not get too dramatic with these fairly minor exceptions.

As to why these skills exist partially a game mechanic issue I imagine and partially for balance.