I would still assume character bound, following the dungeon tokens reasoning.
I don’t understand why it’s being said A-net hates alts. In fact the whole token wallet seems to be a push towards alts.
The daily bonus rewards for taking down world bosses (Jormag, Shatterer, etc) are gated once per day. Gearing alts in Ascended gear takes much, much longer as it’s purely time-gated and will take at least one month per additional chara.
The token wallet thing is the first step towards being nice to altaholics, but other recent history has not been so kind to us.
Players that just want to play the game itself are constantly being hit with these ‘arbitrary limitations’. Why should TP abusers be immune?
Because it’s the only thing going for that method of making money? It takes a large amount of capital to get started, is rather risky sometimes, and is akin to day trading stocks – it’s not going to be completely stable.
So because it’s ‘risky’, they should have no limitations? Despite everyone else having an abundance of limitations/restrictions. Running dungeons isn’t exactly risk-free, you know.
No. You’re not the only one who feels that the practice is wrong. There are many, many people who think that it is wrong. It’s just that the people who take advantage of the TP are very, very vocal and love trying to browbeat all others into agreeing with them.
It’s not even that. It’s the question of “why prevent players from doing this?” which is there. Preventing this sort of thing could very well come off as an arbitrary limitation, no matter how well it is received. And the more limitations you put on what your players can do, well . . .
Arbitrary limitations? Like the ones that keep getting imposed on those that try to accrue gold without abusing the TP? Like Diminishing Returns? Like once-a-day account-bound rewards so as to prevent using alts? Like that fact that it is impossible to make as much money in a day without abusing the TP than you can by playing the market and siphoning money out of the system without returning any value?
Players that just want to play the game itself are constantly being hit with these ‘arbitrary limitations’. Why should TP abusers be immune?
What if dungeons don’t have the skins or stats you’re looking for? What if you’re running the dungeons for money to afford to buy the skins/stats. Then you’re still held back and must take many days to do what you should be able to do in far fewer.
To me that sounds more like something you do for fun, not out of necessity since you don’t need to be pretty in order to be useful… and if I remember correctly there’s only 3 sets that dungeons don’t have (x-mas set, the new crystal set and the karka set). In my opinion the tokens should be character bound, because they will let you have good, basic exotic armor so that you can be useful for others in group.
There is no point to me playing a chara if they will be stuck in ugly armor. Expecting otherwise is to impose your playstyle on me. I’d like it if you wouldn’t do that.
As for non-event acquired stats, dungeons are also missing Valkyrie, Explorer, and Apothecary stats for all equipment and Cavalier and Wayfarer for trinkets.
The problem is that if you do get gold, which is a currency used for most things in this game and not account bound – it influences other people, you will automatically be in a better position than other players who opt only for 1 character.
But you are forgetting that by running multiple charas, my costs for equipping them are that much higher. I have a higher cost just to get to the same level of equipment across all my charas. So just because I choose to run multiple charas and have that higher cost just to equip them, I should be fine with the same money income as a player that only needs to equip one chara?
Basically as a player who runs only one, it seems you believe that noone else should be able to as easily equip their alts. That seems quite selfish, honestly.
Everyone keep saying its a nerf but to read the update its a buff. Let us look….
“Each day when you finish a unique path for any explorable or story dungeon, you’ll receive a bonus reward for completion—1 to 3 gold for explorable dungeons depending on their length and difficulty, 50 silver for story dungeons. Guaranteed coin rewards that previously dropped from bosses in dungeons have been removed in lieu of these new rewards for dungeon completion; all other drops off of bosses have not been changed. Now you have even more incentive for braving the hazards of the dungeons of Tyria!”
It clearly says more incentive not less.
It’s a buff if you only run a path once a day. But for those that grind dungeons for the money rewards, it’s a massive nerf.
There is no “value added” to an item from flipping, just profiting from other players.
If the general consensus is that flipping, speculation and market manipulation are ok from the majority of players then I have my answer. I’m just disappointed in the answer.
Playing the TP makes the most money, I know. I just thought there’d be more people who thought this isn’t right.
Seems I’m wrong.
No. You’re not the only one who feels that the practice is wrong. There are many, many people who think that it is wrong. It’s just that the people who take advantage of the TP are very, very vocal and love trying to browbeat all others into agreeing with them.
I’m not afraid that there will not be a new farming method. I am curious as to what it will be and if it will still have acceptably fast gains. Because to me flipping on the TP is not only not an option, but also morally abhorrent. And I needs the monies for my legendary hunt.
I think the gold reward should be account bound, so that you get the normal reward once per account per day… but the tokens rewards should be character bound, so that you can get 66 piece for each character you play the dungeon with.
This way you can gear your alts more easy, but it won’t be completely unfair to people with just 1 character. I think this would be doable with 2 chests; one with the tokens and one with the gold. Just make the gold-one account bound and the token-one character bound.
What if dungeons don’t have the skins or stats you’re looking for? What if you’re running the dungeons for money to afford to buy the skins/stats. Then you’re still held back and must take many days to do what you should be able to do in far fewer.
Just like with their announcement for changing magifind, they should do something similiar for gold find. Because without those larger champion drops the stat is kinda useless. A few extra copper don’t really add up enough to make the stat worth it.
It does add up for me and is quite useful. You’re speaking of your own expectations and of what is “of use” to you. It adds up; a couple of percent from account gold boost from achievements, a 20% utility infusion and some 30% food. All I do is PvE (as in, Open World, not Instances) and I get quite a noticeable increase in coin from kills. Maybe stop only farming champs. For the time it takes to down a champ and get a little coin, there’s actually more coin to be gained in killing some random enemies in that time than in that single champ kill.
I bought it, like many (I would even say ‘most’ here) did, for it’s usefulness in dungeons. I don’t typically just clear open-world PvE. I’ve done it all and it’s all comparatively boring with sub-par results compared to dungeons/fractals. And now that the stat will be lacking in dungeons/fractals, yes, it is kinda useless. Just like with magifind, they should do something to recompense people for an item that can no longer fulfill it’s purpose.
I’m not going to bother to respond point-to-point as it is obvious that you don’t seem to get it. That and you’re piling on the fallacies and assumptions. You’re also pulling the conversation off-topic.
Phys, Essence, and morrolan all seem to understand what the underlying problems are. I’m just glad that I’m not alone in knowing that the in-game economy is flawed.
Just like with their announcement for changing magifind, they should do something similiar for gold find. Because without those larger champion drops the stat is kinda useless. A few extra copper don’t really add up enough to make the stat worth it.
You wrote: “At a barely lower price that they could get lower if they put in a buy offer. A buy offer that is now higher than it would be otherwise as the flippers are raising the buy offers, which is where the real savings occur.”
Aha! Now we’re getting somewhere. So you acknowledge that flipping pushes the sell orders down and the buy orders up, reducing the profit margin that people can make on most items. More competition drives down prices, and drives up buy orders. We can go in circles all day about who benefits from this, but at the end of the day that’s what happens. Your argument that buyers are losing out when the buy orders increase I think is self-defeating. You want sellers, including those who earn the items normally, to sell at a price lower than what another individual is willing to pay?
Yes. I already stated that it did, but by so small a margin that it’s practically insignificant. And part of the result of that is affecting buy orders by people who actually want the items for themselves to use instead of to flip.
And no, buyers and sellers should set their offers where they think is best. People will buy the more decently priced things and prices will normalize. Flippers just mess with the process and siphon money away from those that just want to sell/buy stuff for themselves.
You wrote: “But the end result of those spikes is that many players pay far more than they should have to just so some can make money at their expense.”
What do you mean “at their expense?” Are your “many players” choosing to pay the increased amount out of their own free will? Is the exchange of their money at the speculation cost for an item given freely and without coercion? If the answer is yes, then the trade was made honestly with consent from both parties and no one is being “ripped off.” No one is forcing the buyer to purchase goods at the higher price.
Yes. They choose to buy the item because they are seeking the item. There is consent, but only because that may be the only way for those players to get the item. Don’t confuse people purchasing things with agreement that the prices are good. That is a severe logical fallacy there.
Just because they are not being strong-armed does not mean that they are not being ripped off.
Hey, not assuming you’re speaking from ignorance, just trying to understand your logic by having a reasonable discussion.
What do you mean flipping drains money out of the economy? Do you mean the profits earned by the flippers are not in the hands of the general populous anymore? Do you mean flipping concentrates money?
It concentrates money out of the hands of those that just play the game and into the hands of those that flip items, which normally goes back to flip even more items.
You wrote: “And that minute undercutting in bulk is cutting of the sales of players who listed at decent prices, directly harming them”
Why is your definition of “decent” the right one? If thousands of players can buy said item at a cheaper price, can you discount their net benefit?
At a barely lower price that they could get lower if they put in a buy offer. A buy offer that is now higher than it would be otherwise as the flippers are raising the buy offers, which is where the real savings occur.
You wrote: “And it does not lower prices by more than a copper or two and for very short periods of time. So no, still a net negative.”
Remember that if an item is flipped in bulk, that copper or two adds up fast. Suppose 10,000 items are sold at a 1 copper discount. That means that the buyers saved a net of 1 gold. Across multiple items this value saved quickly adds up. Also, I don’t think your assessment of the value being reduced for a short period of time is always accurate. Everyone can look at GW2spidy.com and see points where rampant speculation and attempts at flipping lead to a large and short term spike in the cost of a good, but not all the flippers will “win” during those times, and in addition, with large volume items it’s nearly impossible for one person to “hold up” the price like you’re claiming. They have to keep buying all the items that get relisted for lower values, and keep relisting at higher values. No one has the capital to keep that up for very long. As for T6 mats and more valuable items, the volume may be lower, but the cost is higher, and that is prohibitive in itself.
Those speculative spikes hurt all players that aren’t flippers. Yes, not all will win. But the end result of those spikes is that many players pay far more than they should have to just so some can make money at their expense.
And yet again, I’ve not once made any mention of monopolistic behaviour.
— snip — And that minute undercutting in bulk is cutting of the sales of players who listed at decent prices, directly harming them. And it does not lower prices by more than a copper or two and for very short periods of time.
-- snip —
You may have negated your own ideology there
I have negated nothing there. There is nothing wrong with selling items you have acquired though actual play. There is, however, a problem with buying items solely to sell them back at a higher price.
Personally I hope that the rewards for dungeon paths are per character, but I expect that it will be account-wide. As an altoholic myself, I’ve kinda resigned myself to the fact I will just have to accept it taking a lot longer to gear up alts.
Yeah. It’s disheartening. They gave us 5 chara slots to begin with, enough for one of each race, and many achievements are linked to race-specific personal stories. And then they keep punishing us for using said alts by rewarding us less despite the fact that we already must play more to have and gear the alts in the first place. And then we must play even more as we get rewarded less for playing them.
You ignored my post completely. Can you please argue against my points where I stated that flipping actually serves a price setting purpose and is good for buyers and sellers in the general populous?
A flipper wants to make as much money as fast as possible. Imagine a second flipper, competing with the first for the same items. To make lots of money faster than the first flipper, the second flipper puts in buy orders slightly higher than the first flipper (better for the general populous selling the items) and sells the items at a slightly lower price than the first flipper (better for the general populous buying the items.)
I’m guessing you’re thinking of the items with very little volume such as precursors. Despite Arenanet stating that the precursor marker is NOT being controlled by a few people, think about the sheer amount of gold required to corner that market, and the slow rate of sales because so few people have the gold to purchase those items. Even if someone had a monopoly on pres, they couldn’t do anything with the monopoly because the vast majority of people are simply not capable of purchasing the items at ridiculous prices.
Flippers are still draining money out of the economy without returning anything in the way of value. And that minute undercutting in bulk is cutting of the sales of players who listed at decent prices, directly harming them. And it does not lower prices by more than a copper or two and for very short periods of time. So no, still a net negative.
And no, again, I’m talking of far more than precursors. I’m talking also of T6 mats, lodestones, cores, etc. And again, I never once mentioned monopolies.
I’m not speaking from ignorance here. Please do not assume I am.
In your “Ideology” How do flippers raise the prices?
It’s my ideology that all current economic theory is flawed and contributed to the global economic crash as it is fed off of pure unadulterated greed. And this game modelling it’s economics off of modern-day real-world economics is a complete failure as it does not reward actually playing the game a fraction as much as abusing the mechanics of flipping and controlling markets on the TP.
When a game does not reward as much for actually playing the game itself as it does for flipping items in a market, the system is flawed.
That is, of course, my opinion. You are welcome to yours, but I will not agree with it, just as you probably think mine is flawed.
Playing the market is a mini-game, and can be just as fun as the actual game to some of us, regardless of the MMO. Now I think some people seriously can’t tell the difference between flipping an item, and buying all of an item up in bulk to relist at a higher price.
A little friendly market pvp might not exactly “help” others, but it’s not harming buyers either. It may mess with sellers for a bit :P
Normal players are both buyers and sellers, so yes, you are harming them. And I’ve yet to meet someone who flips who doesn’t do it in bulk.
It’s not a nerf to alts. The only things that can be considered nerfs to alts are concepts along the lines of time gated gear and non tradable one time acquisitions.
If it’s per character, then suddenly it’s more rewarding to play multiple characters for equal amounts of time than playing your favorite character the whole time because the rewards aren’t soul bound.
We don’t yet know if it will or won’t be. It will depend on if the gold reward chests are chara-bound or account-bound. Because if it is account-bound, this will be the latest in a long, long string of ANet punishing us for deigning to play more than one chara. I mean, it’s not like we want to actually gear our alts, right? Right?
Some of us refuse to abuse the market in such a way. Flipping items and basically stealing gold from players who actually need the items should not be far more profitable than anything else in the game.
If my items don’t sell after a week or two I tend to have a fire sale. I just sell to the highest bidder to get some gold back. I know what I’m doing.
In other words “Girrrrrrl, you crahzay”.
If you think flipping is stealing, you really have no clue how the market works.
Untrue. I know exactly how it works. I just disagree with how it does and think the current practices are wrong.
Trading is not. Flipping is. It is siphoning money out of the system and returning nothing in the way of value. It is purely leeching off of the system. So yes, stealing.
It’s a sink. It is taking money out of the market, but doesn’t mean it returns nothing. Money comes from no where in this game and we need the sink to keep everything in place. Imagine your government keep printing bills……at the end those will worth less than toilet paper.
Also, flipping != monopoly. Although flipper wants a large profit margin, what they do is actually reducing it, driving the price down. Casual player will benefit from the lower price.
Yes. You’re right. it is a sink. But you’re wrong in that it returns something. It doesn’t. The only benefit is to the flipper. It is a net negative to everyone else. Money leaves the system into the pocket of the flipper, of whom contributed absolutely nothing to the interaction or to the economy. Flippers are the leeches of the system.
And I not once claimed it was a monopoly. Although those have occurred on several items in the past, I made no such claim here. But flippers do not lower prices. They raise them.
I post here with an opinion about the [sarcasm] obviously perfect [/sarcasm] Trading Post in the same thread that John Smith replied to. And then I get pounced by all of his blind sycophants. How did I not see this coming?
LOL no one is being John Smiths “Blind Sycophant” ( will other than Pocahontas, but then that’s another story)
Your statement that trading is basically stealing is just a tad naive to put it politely.
Trading is not. Flipping is. It is siphoning money out of the system and returning nothing in the way of value. It is purely leeching off of the system. So yes, stealing.
COF is approx 4-7g an hour. I personally can do other dungeons fast as cof but I just have fun racing through it. When I feel like farming I will just find a dungeon rotation that makes this amount of money or close and run it with multiple toons. If people only have the option to casually play they are now playing less than when they spend time farming also.
I’ll probably be doing the same. I still need to finish accruing the money for my legendary (T6 mats and runestones) and my Foefire weapons.
But for that to work the rewards need to be chara-bound, not account-bound. Because if it is the latter then we are limited in our efficient money gain per day.
I post here with an opinion about the [sarcasm] obviously perfect [/sarcasm] Trading Post in the same thread that John Smith replied to. And then I get pounced by all of his blind sycophants. How did I not see this coming?
It’s taking advantage of those that don’t understand the system as well. It is stealing and it’s dishonest. That is my view and you will not be able to convince me otherwise.
Are you serious? surely you can’t be
Yes. I am serious. I would say surely you can’t be, but your opinion is obvious.
I feel like all outcomes of this will be bad.
1. If this encourages more people to do dungeons and everyone has gold, prices of EVERYTHING will go up respectively and drive legendarys even higher. This will discourage newer players because you don’t earn any gold really until you are level 80 and can do multiple dungeons without horrible experiences. They will not have enough money to buy things off the TP early on.
2. Possibly no one extra will do dungeons because you already earn almost a gold in most paths from boss drops and final reward . People who didn’t in the past still wont do 2-3 hour arah paths for just 3 gold. And possibly even the farmer players will do minimal to no dungeons anymore.
3.The people who farm cof are now doing the optimal rotation of dungeons. These people are still mindlessly doing the same paths every day. This will also imply a pointless change for the new dungeon system.
Not all bad. It is still greater rewards for those that more casually play dungeons. It’s only really a nerf for those that grind for money.
The question is what will take the place for those players. Or more importantly, is there something that cant take that place. You know … other than TP flipping. Which should not be promoted as the be all/end all of money acquisition.
Nothing prevents players who want to buy things from putting in buy orders at lower prices. You pay a premium for the convenience of getting things instantly.
There’s no stealing of anything involved in the slightest.
It’s taking advantage of those that don’t understand the system as well. It is stealing and it’s dishonest. That is my view and you will not be able to convince me otherwise.
Some of us refuse to abuse the market in such a way. Flipping items and basically stealing gold from players who actually need the items should not be far more profitable than anything else in the game. We should be able to make money at a comparable rate without taking advantage of other players. Unfortunately, we can’t. And that is a design failure.
Please explain how reselling is stealing gold from players.
If you can’t see it then it’s not worth my time to explain it to you.
So we’re not supposed to make money at a decent rate unless we are screwing others out of their money by flipping items on the TP and being leeches on the system?
COF path 1 does not make you money at a decent rate, it makes it at an accelerated rate, out of kilter with the rest of the game bar TP flipping. FWIW I don’t like TP flipping either.
Yes. But that accelerated rate is needed if you don’t want to spend months for a single rare item.
Making sure the majority of players can’t make money quickly compared with TP prices on higher end items ensures players are buying enough in-game gold with actual money rather than earning it in-game.
If that is indeed the case, then I will be losing all respect for a company that I do highly respect (except for the economist). I really, really hope that is not the case.
You guys made John Smith cry. Please learn how to use the market to make it all better
Some of us refuse to abuse the market in such a way. Flipping items and basically stealing gold from players who actually need the items should not be far more profitable than anything else in the game. We should be able to make money at a comparable rate without taking advantage of other players. Unfortunately, we can’t. And that is a design failure.
We wouldn’t need fixes on the CoF gold farms if gold wasn’t the be all end all of item acquisition in this game. Allow players to earn their rewards through tokens and reasonable soulbound/account bound drop rates and you will see players actually playing content instead of targeting the next generic gold farm.
Yeah. But some items that people are seeking cannot be gotten via dungeons. Only via insane grinding for money or rare drops. And money is more reliable to obtain. If there were decent methods for turning tokens into lodestone and money then this would all be moot.
It always amuses me when I see stuff like this. What does it matter if all the majority of people do is run CoF p1?
Cause it creates inflation.
So we’re not supposed to make money at a decent rate unless we are screwing others out of their money by flipping items on the TP and being leeches on the system?
Before anymore QQing takes place I think we need better clarification of this new system as the way I see it the only change to gold is the 26s you receive at the end of each path is gone in favor of 1g minimum reward. All bosses (including final boss of CoF p1) will still drop silver so with ur omnoms and boosters you will still make 30s on final boss and 20s on regular bosses. So it will take 5 CoF runs before you actually make less money than the current system.
Actually all the boss drop silver is removed in lieu of the new gold reward. So repeated runnings of any path will not make you much money directly. So gold find as a stat is kinda useless now.
Yes, it is supposed to be difficult. The problem is that it requires specific builds and that it is easier to beat solo than grouped. In a game built around groups and social play. The scaling in the instance is insane and just too high.
Truly difficult content should require specific builds. Specific builds that work require a great understanding of your class, what the challenges are contained in the content, and lots of strategizing/preparing prior to the content. This is good. This requires players to give a lot of thought into their builds. (In fact, look at some of the speedrun vids of CoF 1 or Lupi. Some of the innovation and thought that goes into those group compositions is truly amazing, such as a recent discovery of using a Ranger in CoF 1 speedruns.)
This arguably goes somewhat against the GW2 philosophy of anything goes, perhaps. But again, that’s why they have 1. tiers of difficulty, so everyone can experience it, 2. truly difficult 5-man experience to really get loot and get rewarded (again, beating it isn’t being rewarded. In this case loot bags for better chance at Aetherized Weapons). People who enjoy difficult content does exist. I’m glad Anet threw them a bone without impacting lesser players as much (i.e. not being able to finish thus not fully experiencing AB or MF)
EDIT: IMO, I feel like one of the biggest negatives of Candidate Trials is its temporary nature. I don’t mind it, but I feel the time-pressure doesn’t allow innovation to achieve its full potential.
Builds, yes. Gear, no. Requiring specific gear on temporary content is just bad design. Good that it’s challenging for those that want it. But not everyone has the cash to just up and buy gear for content like this.
I do agree that the biggest negative is the temporary nature but the gear requirement is pretty bad, as is the group scaling.
Nah. I’ve not yet seen anything before T4 trials that seems so badly tested and so 100% contrary to the feeling of GW2.
All the other content, even if it was slightly bugged, was still doable by most party composition if the players were skilled. This was the first case where you really must be running glass cannon spec, or near to it, just to complete the content. Meaning if you don’t have a chara geared right, you might be completely SOL. This is the first case where your gearing and spec matters more than your skill. And that’s a bloody shame.
Anet has clearly stated that T4 Candidate Trial was going to be incredibly difficult, and will require a team with well-thought out builds and great coordination to be rewarded (And by rewarded, I don’t mean beat it. I mean to kill mobs and get loot.) You can toss in a group of 5 zerkers, I guarantee you they won’t succeed unless 1. the group coordinates well and 2. the individual players are skilled. Both specs and skills matter.
Because players have been asking for something really challenging. They delivered. Is incredibly challenging content that forces players to conform to a specific “contrary” to the spirit of GW2? Debatable. However, this shouldn’t prevent them from coming out with something incredibly difficult that really requires careful planning, because there are people who enjoy it. And that’s the whole reason why they had tiered difficulties: difficult content, but with easy modes so everyone can still experience it.
Yes, it is supposed to be difficult. The problem is that it requires specific builds and that it is easier to beat solo than grouped. In a game built around groups and social play. The scaling in the instance is insane and just too high.
I don’t like some of the things they are doing, but things like this move GW2 more towards the original GW spirit….
BUT! They should add a way for characters to check better the things they’ve already done. For example:
- Maps:
Champions: Adding a small gravestone icon for each defeated champion. Nothing for those you have never defeated, so you still have to find them. This will only mark those you have already done. The icon would be as small as the karma vendor icon so it isn’t very intrusive.
World bosses: Adding an open chest icon for each completed world boss event.
Players can hide these icons like any other.
- Dungeons:
Chaning the dungeon icons so they show what you’ve done:
Closed door or Inactive asura gate: You’ve never done this dungeon.
Open door o active asura gate: You have completed story mode for this dungeon.
Closed chest: You’ve completed all paths, but none today.
Colored open chest: You have completed some paths today.
Grayed open chest: You have completed all paths for this dungeon today. This icon won’t pop in the map when zoomed out like dungeon icons do now.
Hover over a dungeon icon, all paths are listed there with an icon next to them.
Grayed closed chest: You’ve never done this path.
Colored closed chest: You’ve done this once, but not today.
Colored open chest: You’ve done this path today.
Ohgod that would be soooo useful! As one who runs nine charas, that would make seeing who has done what so much easier! Now I must want this.
No. Not fixed. There have been some mistakes, but none this badly designed. Please don’t put words in my mouth and I won’t do the same to you. Thanks.
Sorry didn’t mean to be disrespectful but i think that there have been many other times where it felt like we as the general player base where the actual testers of new content not ones playing tested and proven content. Again sorry if what i said was disrespectful, i was joking thinking you were being sarcastic about Anets testing history.
Nah. I’ve not yet seen anything before T4 trials that seems so badly tested and so 100% contrary to the feeling of GW2.
All the other content, even if it was slightly bugged, was still doable by most party composition if the players were skilled. This was the first case where you really must be running glass cannon spec, or near to it, just to complete the content. Meaning if you don’t have a chara geared right, you might be completely SOL. This is the first case where your gearing and spec matters more than your skill. And that’s a bloody shame.
Unfortunately, if you say that farmers are a drain on the economy you are also saying that all players are as well as the goods are generated identically for both.
I actually explicitly said that in my post, but I also said that people who farm (not like gold farmers who sell gold for money in the real world) in mass numbers (such as in the instance of COF p1) over extended periods of time have a negative effect on the economy.
On a small-scale level, where most players are concerned, this is not an issue. But when you have countless people all farming simultaneously for extended periods of time in an easily accessible form (COF p1 and etc.) you will see a general trend of devaluing in currency because so much currency is being generated out of nothing so quickly, causing currency to devalue and prices to inflate.
Do you understand now?
Unfortunately, players are forced into farming to get enough gold to fund certain items. Unless you are saying that only flippers should be allowed to own said items. And I would need to disagree with you greatly if you think that is true.
But as I see it, players are doing things in the world to generate goods and make money off of them. No harm. Leeches simply buy those goods cheaply and resell them for profit. They siphon the money out of the system and give nothing back. No goods generated. No benefit to anyone but themselves. And with that money being siphoned away from players but still in the system, prices still go up. So players need to farm more to keep up with the prices.
No matter what way you try to phrase it, flippers are nothing but leeches. Period.
Everything else in your post is arguable but this is not. Farmers, like anyone else who plays the game, generate gold from outside of the existing money pool by getting money from both coin drops and by selling drops to the merchant. This money comes from nowhere and is added into the existing economy, causing more overall gold to be added.
Of course this is true of anyone that plays the game, but farmers do so intensively over extended periods of time which can cause dramatic devaluing when you take countless people all doing this simultaneously.
Unfortunately, if you say that farmers are a drain on the economy you are also saying that all players are as well as the goods are generated identically for both.
And by farming, I was referring to players that choose to farm, not the gold farmer company types. My apologies if I was not clear. I have no liking for the company types and find them as harmful as the flipper leeches.
Flipping is in EVERY SINGLE MMO economy. WOW, SWG, EVE, GW2, GW, Rift, LOTRO, all of them. It’s been around since Ultima Online. It’s part of the way games work.
Yes, it is there. No, I don’t need to like it or think that it’s right and should be allowed. “It’s always been done that way” is not a good excuse.
Yes, it has. And it’s still wrong and the reason the current world economy is kittened.
No, the reason the current world economy is messed up is because of an almost infinite list of other factors. There is no one thing, such as flipping and trading, that can be pinpointed and corrected to fix the world’s economy, and really it is totally irrelevant in this discussion because how the economy works in reality and how it works in a video game are, despite sharing some similarities on a fundamental level, is very different.
Flipping and trading are a big part of it. They raise the price of goods based on speculation, hurting those that need the goods but can no longer afford it due to said speculation.
The world in real life is run on flipping. In fact every game you buy is based on the flipping principle of low cost resources to sell the game, then make profit from many units sold… or in GW2’s case the cost to profit ratio of making on gemstore item. Flipping has been around for thousands of years.
Yes, it has. And it’s still wrong and the reason the current world economy is kittened.
I respectfully disagree because I see it differently, but I can understand where you’re coming from. I’d try to explain in further detail what I was trying to express but it’s really difficult to put into words without making a really, really long post.
However, I disagree that farmers provide a service. They simply generate more gold from thin air, which causes the overall value of gold to decrease. This in turn causes prices to go up.
I also disagree that traders cause the prices of items in the game to go up. Look at any commonly traded thing and you will see from the start of the game there has been a very steady and significant decrease in its value (for the most part). This is true for ectoplasm, all other materials, rare items, and etc. Only very rare things have a high value (as one would assume!) and that is no fault of TP enthusiasts.
You should look at some graphs on gw2spidy.net or a similar resource, and then reconsider how you perceive TP traders. In reality, I think they may actually (in a general way, there are of course exceptions like in any system!) help to steadily over time devalue items and make them more accessible. Farmers cause more money to be generated from nothing, TP traders simply exchange money that is already extant in the game’s economy.
This is all speculation and open to debate, but that’s just how I see it.
Farmers don’t create anything from thin air. They generate goods just like any player does. But like I said in my first post on the topic, you will not be able to convince me that flippers are anything but leeches. Period. They are leeches in the real world and they are leeches in game.
Now people that add value such as crafters and stuff are fine. But people who buy purely to resell at a higher price are nothing but leeches who remove money from the hands of those who actually play the game.
Possibly because some of us hate TP flipping and think it should be disallowed. I consider all TP flippers to be unrepentant leeches on the system and you will never be able to convince me otherwise.
How about the fact that TP flipping in a roundabout way of doing so helps to stabilize the economy because all the money that is put into it also comes out. So instead of the game generating gold (which causes more overall currency to become available, i.e. the value of the currency goes down), players trade gold and the same overall amount of gold remains in the game but it simply trades owners (just like business in the real world!) instead of being generated out of thin air.
Essentially look at it this way: Farming areas in the game for gold is like printing more money. The more money that is printed devalues it in the economy. Trading on the trading post does not generate money, but simply changes where in the game that money is held.
Imagine that participating in the Trading Post on a meta-level is like trading stock or investing, and imagine that that system in of itself is a part of the game to some. Some people truly enjoy gaining money by mathematical analysis and quickly making high-risk decisions, and the fact that such an element as that can exist in this game that is fundamentally about killing baddies is sort of a really cool thing to imagine.
That and the fact that these traders are not in any way devaluing the currency of the game world, other than by taking money from people who have generated that gold. In reality, it’s the farmers who are the true plagues of the system, as they are only serving to make the poor poorer and the rich richer by feeding the system.
Yeah. Think about that. Isn’t economics in video games cool?
No. It does not stabilize anything. It purely takes money away from people. Without those leeches players would be able to buy things at a lower price and sellers would be able to make more. Instead the leeches buy what the players should be able to then sell them to those players at an increased price. Those leeches simply siphon money out of the system to the detriment of all others. That adds nothing of value and simply steals profit and savings from people who actually want to play the game.
Farmers are not the plagues. They at least provide a service. Getting you the goods that you don’t want to farm for, but that you still need. Flippers provide nothing of value for anyone but themselves. They are pure leeches.
Possibly because some of us hate TP flipping and think it should be disallowed. I consider all TP flippers to be unrepentant leeches on the system and you will never be able to convince me otherwise.
Yeah as others like yourself have said i dont think the most rewarding thing in the game should require a spreadsheet, and technically you are not even playing the game. The problem is anet can’t change it in anyway with out messing up the whole system. i mean are they going to limit how many trades each person can do each day? Or put a money cap on the number of trades?
They just need to limit types of trades and stuff. Yes, it would require work. More importantly it would require the resident economist, John Smith, to allow it. And he won’t. In fact he promotes the act. Which I find sickening.
I think the real question is what new farming method is going to replace CoF P1 for maximum gold income by actually playing the game. I am quite curious as to what people think will replace it.
