Guild Wars 2

Sawnic.6795:

…So learn to dodge?

Right. Dodge right off the platforms that you need to climb. Because players will spam AoEs over the entire platforms, you know.

Sawnic.6795:

All you need to do is get near it. Not do anything else. Just dodge and when you get the achieve, let them kill you.

The hard part is getting there. Especially as the colosseum is such an incredible chokepoint. Were they to put it in the colosseum instead, people would not mind dying after getting it. The problem is people keep dying before they even get close.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Trying to make this “election” to be some "cause’ against RNG is laughable. First, the number of players willing to base their decision completely on RNG hate is quite small and secondly, this “election” appears to me to be an elaborate content filler that in the end will allow ANet to make tons of cash will garnering good will from the player base……it’s just brilliant!

Then again, I could be wrong and the election is 100% legit and RNG is absolutely the real issue to be decided…..

Again, it is simply to ‘make a point’. Even if he wins, all that matters on the RNG issue is that ANet notices how strongly people feel against it. That such a little thing, something not even necessarily considered by them, might actually have an effect on the vote would point out the strength of the feelings.

Lue.6538:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I help others. That is no more ‘fueling the flames of entitlement’ than anything else. If you think that all must be selfish individuals and never deign to help others to prevent feelings of entitlement then I think you’ve missed both the point and any chance of human decency. I help others to be a good person and because I feel it’s the right action. Not because others expect me to.

More logical fallacies, but hey, keep em coming.
There is “helping” people and then theres actually helping people, giving someone a free win isn’t going to accomplish anything but to bring up an expectation that the same may occur further down the line, when said expectation goes unfullfilled you may just end up looking like you feel entitled to having aforementioned expectation.
If you were actually interested in helping someone, why not give them some tips on how to win instead?

I help others. I don’t create expectations directly. If they expect anything further then that is a logical fault on their end. Not on mine. So don’t try to pin other’s actions on myself, m’kay?

And don’t assume that I don’t also give tips. I do. But I also know that I would prevent many/most from having a chance to win were I do race at full effort. Especially when all I care about is the reward given to any finisher.

Lue.6538:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Some people will feel entitled either way. My actions do not affect their entitlement. They either do or don’t feel entitled. All I do is race to the line then allow others the win. Nothing more or less. I will not change my actions because of others. I know that I’m doing the right thing.

Ofcourse, some people will always feel entitled, most of your actions most certainly does not have an impact on that at all, however this particular one? Maybe, but seeing as it is all speculation tho we might aswell drop that.

Fair ’nuff.

Lue.6538:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Now you expecting a different action out of me is entitlement. You think that I should act differently. Now if it is just an idle wish, then it’s not. But you phrased it a bit more directly than that, thus I was forced to assume you were acting entitled.

See this is the fun part, I’m not expecting you or anyone else to stop anything as long as it isn’t against the EULA.

I’ll quote you on this then:

Assume innocence until proven otherwise.

Or did that only apply to those who got handed wins for free?

Oh and lets stop calling those who doesn’t hand out wins selfish shall we?

I’ve not really called those players selfish. They got the the line first and it’s their choice as far as what to do. I’ve actually called players out for demanding those that finish first to throw their race.

The only one that gets to make that decision is the one that arrives there first. And it should only be thrown if that is what they want. Not if it is only what others want them to do.

Shiren.9532:

The only way to show your support for RNG boxes is to buy RNG boxes (or say so directly through feedback to ArenaNet). Voting for either side in this election says nothing about RNG. If ArenaNet wanted to know if players liked RNG, they’d look at the sales figures of the RNG boxes.

Even if Evon won, the sales of Black Lion Keys after the discount would be the only thing to support RNG, not the election result itself.

ArenaNet is a business. When making business decisions they would use hard data (which they have) over inconclusive anecdotal nonsense.

It’s more about voting against Evon to protest RNG and letting it be very obvious that that is why we are voting against him. It’s more ‘making a point’ than anything else.

Fyrehawk.1674:

SynfulChaot.3169:

[…]But rangers ran spirits better than rits, IMHO, when you didn’t need to use them as a wall due to being able to cast them more often and more cheaply.[…]

No offense, but that logic only made sense when a GW1 PvE ranger was attempting to justify a spot in a group for anything perceived as remotely challenging. Most spirits were on a thirty to forty-five second cool down, couple this with ‘Spirit Syphon’, ‘Summon Spirits’ and the fact 3 spirits were derived via a signet and any channelling ritualist could manage spirit up-time equally if not better than the perceived energy management benefits from ranger’s Expertise.

This is ignoring the fact that a PvE ritualist could attain 16 attribute points in channelling making everything in that line more powerful – including ‘Spirit Syphon’. Assuming a channelling ritualist was not selfish and avoided ‘Communing’ opening up a slot for an additional spirit spammer; the subsequent heavy investment in ‘Spawning Power’ not only increased spirit health but increased weapon spell duration allowing a ritualist to front load, on to a couple of physical-based party members, ridiculously powerful weapon spells like ‘Splinter Weapon’ and ‘Great Dwarf Weapon’.

In my opinion, there is an ironic reminiscence between the GW2 and GW1 ranger with regards to PvE, their presence in a PuG very much dependent on group tolerance rather than some objective desire to add one.

Longest cooldown for SoS builds was about 30 seconds. SoGM builds had only one spirit with a 45 second cooldown. The rest were 30. And even with Spirit Siphon, the lowered cost of certain expensive spirits (such as "Dissonance"http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dissonance) with Expertise allowed a ranger to reliably get them out every time.

Yes, a rit could do more than a ranger with spirit builds. But the main SoS and SoGM ranger builds were used often due to the high spirit uptime due to Expertise. Outside of those specific builds rits did do ritualist spirits better. But with those specific builds, I still feel rangers were superior.

Most accurately stated, it is that rangers had a place in the meta. They were not top, no. But they were still powerful and could field many different viable builds. They were a ‘toolbox’ class. They were what you needed them to be. They could run spirits very effectively. They could run pressure. They could run AoE. They could run spike. Regardless of where you were going, a ranger would be a boon.

That is very different from GW2 PvE, where there is practically animosity towards any that would dare to take a ranger into a dungeon.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

They’re all equally ‘unique’ from the perspective that they are all temporary content linked and only seemingly temporarily obtainable (jury’s still out on the Aetherblade armor). Making some that much more expensive to obtain, on average, is completely unnecessary when they all fill the same niche.

You continue to use words I use in a different context.

They have a unique skin. The fact that they are all temporary does not change the fact that their appearance are all unique. Some people value this unique appearance more highly than others, and justify their expenses due to it.

Still does not mean that gating them as such is right. I hold that it is not.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yes, that view is subjective. As is yours. We can discuss the logic behind it all day, but when it comes to whether or not we think it is right all we can discuss is opinion, in which neither of us are objectively correct.

It is an objective fact that people who hold differing opinions than you exist, and it is my subjective opinion that your attempt to paint yourself as “smarter” than people with different opinions is rude and unnecessary.

Et tu, Ursan. Et tu.

DeShadowWolf.6854:

But putting them in the gem store is pretty much guaranteed to get people to buy them in the gem store rather than through RNG, which would force Anet to price them a good bit higher than aforementioned Rox and Braham skins.

Some would still gamble as they could still potentially save money and could still potentially get something else useful while they’re at it. Those that wanted it for sure would buy directly as they don’t want to risk losing more money.

And they wouldn’t need to price them absurdly high. The Aetherblade armor is 800 gems. The past Wintersday winter weapons were 500 gems. Neither of those are ‘absurdly’ high. Now if you calculate, on average, how many gems it would cost to definitively get one of the RNG skins … now that is absurdly high.

DeShadowWolf.6854:

Your last sentence is a logical fallacy. People don’t like RNG (and not all of us) so therefore voting for Evon is voting for RNG? that just does not follow through. Some better logic to add to the end you your post might be Voting for either candidate isn’t going to change anything about RNG so you may as well vote for a chicken. :P

Evon is the in-game face of the Black Lion Trading Company. That is fact. Thus, logically following, the actions of the trading post and gem store can be attributed to him. So voting against him can represent voting against his actions. There’s the logic you were unable to find on your own.

Will it change ANet’s policies regarding real money RNG? No. Will it send them the message of what we think of said policies? Quite possibly.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

It should be no more ‘unique’ than any other gem store skin. What makes them differ from the Wintersday gem store weapon skins or the Aetherblade weapons? Nothing but the fact that ANet decided to RNG gate them. Completely unnecessary.

I’m not sure I understand. It’s unique because it has a unique skin that’s different from Wintersday/Aetherblade weapons. That is the definition of the word unique. And when an unique item has only one unique method of obtaining it, a person must then judge how much he values the reward, and how much he’s willing to invest in the process. Both are completely subjective things and it’s rude to pretend you’re somehow “smarter” than some because their values differ from yours.

They’re all equally ‘unique’ from the perspective that they are all temporary content linked and only seemingly temporarily obtainable (jury’s still out on the Aetherblade armor). Making some that much more expensive to obtain, on average, is completely unnecessary when they all fill the same niche.

Yes, that view is subjective. As is yours. We can discuss the logic behind it all day, but when it comes to whether or not we think it is right all we can discuss is opinion, in which neither of us are objectively correct.

Shiren.9532:

SynfulChaot.3169:

She’s done a lot to deserve it. I’m not sure how you haven’t noticed any of it. Unless, of course, like most gamers you bypass all dialogue in the Living Story then ask why things don’t make sense.

She literally sat in the resort of Southsun Cove for the entirety of the event until a yak needed to be escorted (she talked to an NPC after an event she didn’t help with and she also arrived after we defeated Canache). The feats accomplished in Southsun, Sky Pirates and Dragon Bash are accomplished by the player, not by Kiel. She takes credit in the story, but it’s the player doing all the work.

You’re mixing in-game actions you see with out-of-game actions that are stated to have existed. She is a primary NPC we must interact with, thus she must stay accessible to us as players. That normally means that she must stay in one location that we can always find her in. That doesn’t mean all she does is stand there lore-wise. It just means she is always there for game mechanics. Read up on the lore and what is told to us. You’ll find that she has done far more than just standing there.

Shiren.9532:

The mechanics of story allow for the player to be recognised as the hero. Trahearne had one second in command, it was always the player, not thousands of players. Tybalt had one partner, not thousands of partners. The story is full of one off events that couldn’t possibly happen to multiple people, yet everyone is able to experience them as if it happened to them (including the Living Story). Sure the player becoming a god is impractical, but the way it was written was wrong. Kormir didn’t earn it. It doesn’t bother me that the player character never became a god, it does bother me that Kormir did essentially off of the work of the player.

It’s the same with Kiel. Story after story the player is doing everything yet the story isn’t recognising the player, it’s recognising Kiel. It doesn’t make for a very compelling game to have the NPC do all the work, sure. You know what? Don’t make the NPC do any work! In fact, why do we need the NPC present in the gameplay at all? Why can’t the NPC just act as a tool for exposition, but when the work is done, the player gets the recognition. Logan sent Marjory to Lion’s Arch, does he get credit for everything Marjory did while she was there? Of course not. Why does Kiel constantly tell the player what to do and once the the player has done it, she comes in to take the credit from Magnus?

We are the heroes. It’s our game and when it comes to completing content we are always going to be the ones doing the work. Characters like Kiel detract from the story because they take the importance of the player out of it. We are still present for the gameplay, but our role in the story is diminished to sidekicks or lackeys and when all the work is done, the story doesn’t recognise that, it recognises a character that we know didn’t do what it’s claimed they did.

One of the advantages of storytelling in a game is that it’s interactive. The player gets to be the hero. There is a disconnect with the Living Story when characters like Kiel are recognised as heroes despite not actually doing the work of a hero. The interactive element doesn’t support the version of events that the story is telling.

Both characters do not take the importance of the player chara out. They do not take credit for all actions done by the player. Yes, we are not the focus of everything. Because it would not make sense.

We did great things in Nightfall and stopped Abbadon, but we didn’t have the gift to contain Abbadon’s power. Kormir did. That isn’t taking anything from the player. It is openly acknowledged that Kormir and the player character defeated Abbadon. Not just Kormir.

As for Southsun? Would we even have been involved if it wasn’t for Kiel? Would we have even ‘solved the mystery’? Would we have even found Canach’s lair? No. We were the muscle, not the brains. That’s how it was written. She was the brains and the organizer. Thus it is only common sense that she gets the overall credit for taking care of business.

Lue.6538:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I don’t expect anything of other players. Not even common decency. Anonymity does that to people.

I don’t feel entitled to anything as I dislike the very concept of entitlement. Not sure how you think me helping others by my own free will makes me entitled, but you’re free to believe whatever nonsense makes you feel better about your position.

Since you completely missunderstood what I meant when I said that it was you and not me who needed to learn about entitlement, I’ll rephrase it.

You accused me of believeing I was entitled to having my way, something I never claimed and said that I thus did not grasp the concept, in return you missused the word entitlement as I had not shown nor claimed to actually be entitled. This in turn lead to me responding with that it was not me but rather you who were wrongfully using the term entitlement.

So did I actually say you were feeling entitled to anything? Nope, not at all.
What I did say however was that you used the term faulty when you accused me of said entitlement.

And I’m glad you dislike entitlement, pity you’re further fueling the flames of it tho.

I help others. That is no more ‘fueling the flames of entitlement’ than anything else. If you think that all must be selfish individuals and never deign to help others to prevent feelings of entitlement then I think you’ve missed both the point and any chance of human decency. I help others to be a good person and because I feel it’s the right action. Not because others expect me to.

Some people will feel entitled either way. My actions do not affect their entitlement. They either do or don’t feel entitled. All I do is race to the line then allow others the win. Nothing more or less. I will not change my actions because of others. I know that I’m doing the right thing.

Now you expecting a different action out of me is entitlement. You think that I should act differently. Now if it is just an idle wish, then it’s not. But you phrased it a bit more directly than that, thus I was forced to assume you were acting entitled.

Kenetic.9670:

I know, I know. My point of the thread being that we don’t know anything about their politics or reasons why we should vote for them, except for the promised research.
But I realize I’m taking this too far probably.

Kiel’s reason is apparent. Because she is being ‘asked’ to by Magnus. And noone says no to Magnus.

Evon’s reason is as apparent. Him getting on the council would expand his power, thus expanding what he could get away with trade-wise. Allow him to get an even firmer hold on all trade in Tyria.

Kenetic.9670:

I was asking for non-real life reasons to vote for one or the other, from my characters point of view.
While I don’t like RNG, my asura is kinda meh about it. She’s never bought one of Evon’s idiot traps, and she never will. But people have the choice to spend their money any way they want, according to her. But she would like to know what the candidates plans are for the future of LA, and Tyria.
As I said before, sille roleplaying me lol

Non-real life reasons? Hmm…

Kiel is more known as a competent Lionguard who assisted and lead multiple successful investigations. Evon is the leader of the Black Lion Trading Company, Kryta’s foremost merchant company. That is heavily simplified, of course, but covers the basics.

Drakkon.4782:

SynfulChaot.3169:

My guess is soulbound as there would be no point in making them account bound, and as you said making them tradable/sellable would potentially cause the election to become more rigged.

Wait…. A pirate election that isn’t rigged? This is insanity!

“This is politics.”

Thus ‘more rigged’.

Erukk.1408:

Basically, what the title says.

I’m just hoping for anything but tradable. If they are allowed to be put up on the TP, any super rich player can swing the election any way they would like. As much as it would fit into the shady politics of a pirate society, I would rather not the whole election get decided by player “X”, by him/her spending a thousand gold or more on votes at the last minute.

My guess is soulbound as there would be no point in making them account bound, and as you said making them tradable/sellable would potentially cause the election to become more rigged.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. I do understand statistics. Thus my use of ‘hypothetically’.

To hypothesize 100% in statistics for situations in which there is no 100% chance earns a no-no from me. (It’s a completely pointless thing to bring up, because it’s infinite, hypothetically, literally, theoretically.)

Yet to determine hypothetical average item value, it is necessary. And that is what I was doing.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

But if you calculated that expected value, those items would be priced exponentially higher than anything else on the gem store. That is the problem. The prices are absurd and require gambling with real money.

You must not have read the entirety of my post. You can’t compare the calculated value with anything else in the gem store, because the reward is a unique thing which individuals place unique value onto it. Some individuals will place very high value on this object, and so naturally they will be willing to spend up to their threshold in order to obtain it, because they value it that much.

It should be no more ‘unique’ than any other gem store skin. What makes them differ from the Wintersday gem store weapon skins or the Aetherblade weapons? Nothing but the fact that ANet decided to RNG gate them. Completely unnecessary.

Ursan.7846:

This is a very similar logic to the whole achievement point discussion we’ve had. Some individuals place a great deal of value in completing these achievement, thus they will undertake tasks they abhor in order to achieve them. Do you make fun of these people by telling them “it’s not worth it?” No, you respect their individual choice and their individual valuation of certain rewards.

This is why people gamble. They sincerely think it’s worth it, and it’s rude to belittle the fact that they value the reward so much.

People can spend their money how they like. But real money RNG gating temporary content is just plain bad for anyone but ANet’s pocketbook.

Ursan.7846:

EDIT: Of course, as you said this whole point is really moot if RNG items aren’t account bound since the market will set a value to the item and the player doesn’t have to. But for account bound RNG items, yes, it will be ultimately be up to the individual to assign these items a value.

And that I would not mind as much. It would give those that abhor RNG a chance to obtain the items without the gamble.

Still not as optimal as directly selling the skins, but it least it will reach a closer point of decency.

Kenetic.9670:

And why is Evon RNG? I know the community as a whole seems to think so, since we buy gems through the BLTC, and keys, and boxes. But isn’t that just an easy “real-life” way of combining AH, and ingame store?
I mean, I’ve never seen Evon say ingame: “Arr, I luurve these lottery boxes, I love selling them to you idiots”
Just my two cents of course

Oh. It’s definitely a RL thing. But it’s the only way we can really “retaliate” against the practice.

Tinni.4351:

Or they are happy to take the chance as they are with lottery. I mean, you clearly don’t have a problem with RNG because there are people who argue nothing should be behind RNG. Including permanent bank access. What it really comes down to is that you want skins but don’t want to play the lottery for it. That’s fine but please don’t assume you and your friends are statistically significant enough to justify Anet selling these skins directly. Because you are not and I am sure by now they have enough data on RNG and direct skin sales to know what works and what doesn’t.

I hold firmly that some things should not be real money RNG gated. Temporary skins are one such item.

And I do believe that the current attitude against RNG boxes that is across many, many threads by many, many people is statistically significant. I have noted that they seem to be moving away from skins being RNG gated. Both current Aetherblade armor (gem store direct purchase) and upcoming Aetherblade weapons (in-game random drop). I hope that streak lasts.

Risingashes.8694:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Arguments involving blatant logical fallacies are not arguments nor are they fun. They are simply a waste of my time.

((Of course they’re fun. Each person makes increasingly fervent claims demonising the other side. It involves creativity and improvisation.

What isn’t fun is you making 1 line statements and pretending you’re a bastion of logical reasoning. How could I possibly of responded to ‘Evon runs a marketplace, therefore it’s his fault’ when my entire post was specifically addressing that argument. Restating something isn’t an appropriate response to a counter-point even in actual arguments, and in pretend arguments it’s additionally lazy.))

You find them fun. Fine. I don’t. I prefer actual conversation instead of the puffery and embellishments. I hate it in actual campaigning IRL and I hate it here as well. Especially when it conflicts with logic and lore.

Sorry if you think I’m a killjoy, but that’s my opinion on it.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Look at the pure odds to get the item that you are striving for and multiply the cost of a key (or box) by the number of times needed to hypothetically reach 100%. That cost is far, far greater than if they sold it directly at a reasonable price. You know, the prices they have sold plenty of other skins at.

I’m going to state this bluntly, but I don’t think you understand statistics.

The number of boxes you need to open to theoretically reach 100% is infinite. That is how probability works.

However, you can still calculate an expected value of obtaining at least one item, assuming you know the actual odds. And then you can compare this expected value to your own personal threshold to make a decision. That other skins they sold for a fixed price is irrevelent (Does the fact that you can get exotic armor for 2G make cultural armor unreasonable? No.). It’s how you individually value this unique item, and how much you’re willing to pay for that plays into a person’s decision. Not a comparison to other items in the same category. If a person calculates the expected value of obtaining a rare molten skin is $200 and he’s willing to spend it, then that is his right.

No. I do understand statistics. Thus my use of ‘hypothetically’. But if you calculated that expected value, those items would be priced exponentially higher than anything else on the gem store. That is the problem. The prices are absurd and require gambling with real money.

Ursan.7846:

That being said, however, making skins obtainable through pure RNG is quite silly because it takes away options from players who are RNG-averse. More options are ALWAYS better.

With this I agree. If you could buy directly or gamble for the skins, then this conversation would be moot. Some would still gamble. Those that are RNG averse would buy direct. All would be happy.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yes, some are willing to flush their money away. Many of us are smarter than that with our money.

I don’t understand. Why the insistence on belittling people who don’t think the way you do? There are many people who, understanding the small chances of success, purchase a chance. Because they don’t mind investing a small amount (relative to the actual value of the item) and hoping to obtain it through luck.

Now I have to make it clear though, what is unacceptable is account-bound RNG items from Anet, such as the Fused/Sclerite/Jade skins.

RNG itself though? It’s perfectly fine. It allows those who don’t want to pay the full value to pay very little relative to the value of the reward for a chance at it. Then through the marketplace, it can be valued appropriately based on its rarity and player supply/demand, and players who are willing to pay the full value can purchase it from there (i.e monocles, Molten back/mini, etc.)

Look at the pure odds to get the item that you are striving for and multiply the cost of a key (or box) by the number of times needed to hypothetically reach 100%. That cost is far, far greater than if they sold it directly at a reasonable price. You know, the prices they have sold plenty of other skins at.

And I agree that were you to be able to sell them then my main complaints would go away. My problem is solely that the only way to attain these items is by real money pay lottery.

Risingashes.8694:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Lovely straw man there.

((You do get that bringing logical fallacies in to a roleplaying argument is like bringing chainmail to a plastic lightsaber battle, right? Sure you’re invincible but no one was trying to break skin to begin with and now no one can have any fun.))

Arguments involving blatant logical fallacies are not arguments nor are they fun. They are simply a waste of my time.

Tinni.4351:

You don’t know much about commerce or economics do you? First of all, no, really no. What’s the fair price for skin? 800 gems? 500 gems? 100 gems? They sold Rox and Braham’s set for 600 gems. 600 gems only! YET some people complained it was priced too high. But pretty much you cannot sell weapons skins directly for more then 500-600 gems. It won’t work and sticker shock will set in.

Some will always complain that all prices are too high. At those prices, items are affordable enough to draw people. I think that ANet has done a pretty good job at pricing items in the gem store, honestly.

Tinni.4351:

Secondly, the question becomes how many more people would buy the skins if they were directly available. This is hard to answer without proper metrics but it is a fact that Anet would have to sell a LOT of direct skins to make-up for the revenue lost from not selling RNG boxes because players who would have spend, say $50, buying RNG boxes would only spend, say, $20 or so buying 1-2 skins. A 1000 players spending $50 is $50,000 but at $20 direct purchase of skins 2500 players would have to directly purchase skins. So more then double the amount!

There are still plenty that are sold in RNG boxes that make sense in RNG boxes. Things such as permanent contracts and stuff. Stuff that will still cause the boxes to sell.

I just hold that limited skins do not belong there and should be sold directly. There are plenty of people, myself included, that would have picked up several skins in the past if we could buy it directly. I do not think that I am an edge case here.

Tinni.4351:

I am sorry but that makes no economic sense! None!!!!! Especially when you consider my first argument about sticker shock. Do you know why RNG works? Because the individual cost of entering the lottery, usually 125 gems for a key and equivalent for a box, is considered low for a chance at something big: a nice skin that not a lot of people have. I.e. no sticker shock!

RNG works because some are ignorant to put it bluntly. Look at the actual chances and it becomes illogical to consider flushing away your money.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

When I spend money, I want to spend it on items. Not on a miniscule chance at said items. I spend money on guaranteed items. ANet still benefits that way. But in no way does RNG boxes benefit anyone but ANet.

That’s how you spend your money. However, there is a quite a significant portion of the population who are willing to spend their money on a chance on certain rewards. i.e. massive popularity of lotteries and casinoes.

That is fine. But locking time-limited content solely behind a pay lottery only benefits ANet. Yes, some are willing to flush their money away. Many of us are smarter than that with our money.

If I wanted to waste my money, I’d give it to someone who needs it more than I. I won’t waste my money on a small chance to win. Because, as you should know, the house always wins. And we ain’t the house.

Risingashes.8694:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Items are sold for gems in Evon’s store. Therefore the onus is on him. His RNG, his fault.

Well if you want one person determining what you can buy and what you cannot, then I’m sure ‘Captain’ Kiel will quickly make that a reality.

As for Evon, he believes in the freedom of the marketplace.

When you’re lining up at the Kielian Trading Post for your daily portion of bread crumbs don’t come crying to us.

Lovely straw man there.

Tinni.4351:

Why is it that you anti-RNG folks have such holier then thou attitude when it comes to those of us have no problems buying those boxes? I mean, I don’t know about the rest of the world, but the National Lottery here in the UK does some great work. Lots of arts and research funding, funding to support the preservation of historical sites, museums etc. Likewise, the RNG system supports Anet and thus Tyria.

What harm is there of spending, say, the $20 you would normally spend on monthly fees on keys? I mean, $20 is 1600 gems that equal 19 keys since you can get the 5 keys for 450 gems deal and spend the remaining 250 gems on buying two individual keys. Granted it is a lottery but that’s what’s great about the getting some special out of the chest. You “win” something.

I doubt it hurts the industry. If anything, it’s allowed games like Guild Wars 2 to exist. I mean, nobody is forcing you to play the game of chance if you don’t want to but surely you are going too far when you preach to others how they can spend their hard earned cash. That’s just rude!

When I spend money, I want to spend it on items. Not on a miniscule chance at said items. I spend money on guaranteed items. ANet still benefits that way. But in no way does RNG boxes benefit anyone but ANet.

You spend your money as you wish, but those of us that are opposed to gambling dislike RNG gating when it costs us real money. RNG in game is mostly acceptable. Real money RNG is not.

Risingashes.8694:

I also hate RNG which is why I’m voting for Evon.

Why would you blame a marketplace for the items contained therein? Do you really want market owners filtering the goods offered by vendors within that marketplace- effectively banning the sale of items based upon their whim or fancy?

Personally I respect a business owner who understands the value of freedom, even if Evon himself detests RNG items just as much as the rest of us.

Blame the people who create these insidious items, such as Kiel with her underhanded Southsun Crates, or Magnus with his Dragon Coffers. But not those who simply offer these items to willing buyers, don’t let reputable honest business men be caught up in the dastardly deeds of the corrupt Kiel and Magnus.

Items are sold for gems in Evon’s store. Therefore the onus is on him. His RNG, his fault.

Tinni.4351:

Exactly! I really, really wish people would stop assuming that we ALL have a problem with RNG. We don’t! Maybe because we win, consistently, or maybe because we understand commerce and economics (and thus know directly selling skins benefits no one) and most importantly, probability. But whatever the reason, we don’t all have issues with RNG and thus pegging a vote for Evon to a vote for RNG is not a sound strategy for Kiel supporters.

Untrue. Directly selling skins does benefit the players. Locking them solely behind a pay lottery only benefits ANet at the expense of players. If those same skins were also available for direct purchase then the practice would not be seen as abhorrent as it currently is.

And no. Some of you think it is acceptable. Most of us, however, don’t. Thus, for us, voting against Evon is voting against RNG.

Tinni.4351:

SynfulChaot.3169:

You’re right. It won’t take Evon out or remove the RNG boxes. But it will make our opinion of the practice very clear to ANet. Which we should all do.

Our? You mean yours! I am sorry but I don’t have any problems with RNG. The only message I want to send Anet is simply: the battle of gods vs god better be EPIC!

I’m far from the only one that finds gem store RNG lottery unacceptable. If you find it acceptable, then I feel sorry for you and wish you would stop enabling practices that are bad for the industry.

As far as fractals go, I would prefer Abbadon as well. I just don’t think I can vote for Evon.

DeShadowWolf.6854:

Or, rather more likely, Kiel had stacks and stacks of crates loaded onto ships and uderhandedly sent to the BLTC by Lionguard ships, while the players were off busy doing the work of real heroes and defeating the Legendary Karka Queen. In doing this, it would both allow her to do her dirty work while deflecting your unsuspecting blame to Evon, who she thought she could trust to shut up about his sources.

Pretty far reaching foundless conspiracy theory that doesn’t mesh with the established character personality there.

Raestloz.7134:

NO DAMMIT

IF KIEL WANTS THE DWAYNADAMMED CAPTAIN SEAT, SHE NEEDS TO F#$@ING DESERVE IT

AND RIGHT NOW SHE’S NOT. SHE HAS NEVER EVEN DONE ANYTHING, UNLESS YOU COUNT STEALING CREDITS AS SOMETHING.

huff…. huff….

for f*@#‘s sake, people these days don’t know jack pie about “earning your keep”, or in this case “earning your captain’s seat”. The blind Lionguard captain from Claw island has done more than she does. Nobody will mind if Kiel is actually useful, more useful than you, but Kiel simply isn’t useful: she’s useless

She’s done a lot to deserve it. I’m not sure how you haven’t noticed any of it. Unless, of course, like most gamers you bypass all dialogue in the Living Story then ask why things don’t make sense.

Navzar.2938:

Give up the goddess thing, it’s a red herring and a circular argument.. Yes she became the new god. But that was after any game play involving her. It doesn’t magically change the thing prior to it.

Most quest ally npcs actually do something, like at least hit things and sponging up some damage. It’s not about “we were robbed”, or “I want to be a god”, it’s simply about her being a lousy character, that’s why people dislike her.

No. Most NPC allies are a liability, not a boon. I can’t remember the last useful NPC ally that I did not control in any game I have ever played.

I don’t expect in-game performance from the NPCs. I expect them to fill their duties for lore reasons. To be an interesting chara. Kormir was, as unpopular an opinion as that may be.

Most just hate her as she “steals their story”.

Lue.6538:

SynfulChaot.3169:

And it seems you need to learn a thing or two about entitlement as well. You’re not entitled to us acting as you wish.

Ah so it all boils down to a misrepresentation of my argument then, a logical fallacy that is oh so common. Now the first thing you need to understand is that being opposed to your view on this subject doesn’t mean I expect myself to recieve any benefits for holding that view, thats basically what entitlement is: The expectations that you will hold special benefits or privileges. Now I haven’t exactly stated any expectations that would dictate that I even begin to expect you to ‘act as I wish’.

I am ofcourse strongly opposed to this whole win-trading lark that you’re doing, but that you mistook that for entitlement shows that it is not me who should ‘learn a thing or two’ about it, but you.

I don’t expect anything of other players. Not even common decency. Anonymity does that to people.

I don’t feel entitled to anything as I dislike the very concept of entitlement. Not sure how you think me helping others by my own free will makes me entitled, but you’re free to believe whatever nonsense makes you feel better about your position.

Status.7928:

Actually you would use a rit over a ranger to do spiritspamming and frozen soil, because rits could have more effective ritualist spirits (using the rit runes which rangers couldn’t use) and to use FS effectively you wouldn’t need to spec too far into WS, so rits/ necros were the better choice in those situations. Also, rits could effectively do splinter barrage as well, due to the runes that gave them +attribute, which made splinter weapon deal more damage the ranger could make it do.

In this game, I believe rangers need to be paid more attention to, especially in dungeons/fractals.

Rit spirits would have more health, so that enabled you to use your spirits as a wall. Ranger spirits could not effectively do that. But rangers ran spirits better than rits, IMHO, when you didn’t need to use them as a wall due to being able to cast them more often and more cheaply.

I preferred SoS builds on my ranger and SoGM builds on my rits as those ones played better to the strengths of each class.

Theplayboy.6417:

I have tons of empathy for less fortunate individuals. The issue is that you people have lost the plot completely or don’t fully understand what a race is. Just so we’re all on the same page Sanctum Sprint is a competition between players. I cannot believe all of the crying and complaining that I’m seeing from people who don’t have what it takes to finish in 1st Place in the race. Boo boo you don’t have the skill or twitch ability to beat several other players in an online race…….and yet you feel you deserve and are owed the “Sanctum Sprinter” title.

Yes, it is a by definition a competition. But I don’t care to ‘compete’ against anyone but myself. So I race the clock until I get to the finish line. And if I happen to arrive first I stop and let others get their achievement if they so choose. Why? Because the rewards for first are not that much greater than just completing it at all. And I am there for the completion rewards, not winning. That way I can ‘win’, and so can someone else.

Also, I don’t feel I am owed anything. I got first of my own accord. Many times over, if I had chosen to cross when I arrived. But I don’t. Instead I choose to help others.

And many can’t get it normally not due to skill but due to latency, which they CANNOT be blamed for. If you’re saying that only those with fast connections and low latency deserve to win then I feel sorry for you.

Theplayboy.6417:

And if you want to take it to a compassionate level letting someone finish 1st place in an online video game so that they can get a few free achievement points is not “helping your fellow man”. Its a video game. Get it? A video game…….

Exactly. It’s a video game. Thus there is no problem with helping others.

Navzar.2938:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We don’t know if she’s been doing anything useful since the events of GW1 as the gods went strangely silent. I’m pretty sure she has been, though.

Useless in game. As in in all the missions the closest thing she does to being helpful is use “Incoming!” on your allies near the beginning. Yet still gets the credit for your missions in lore.

She attained godhood as the gods graced her with the gift to contain Abbadon’s power. Not us.

And last I checked, she did not take sole credit for the defeat of Abbadon. She played a role, but it is not claimed that she did it alone. Nor is she portrayed as stopping Nightfall herself.

Yes, she is useless in-game. 95% or more of NPCs are as NPC AI in all games is kittening bad.

Lue.6538:

SynfulChaot.3169:

You assume we did it because people begged.

Is it bad that now I kinda want to keep doing it just to annoy those that think that it should remain exclusive to them?

I know people are begging for the title so thats not an assumption.

By all means, keep doing it, lets nurture the entitlements.

Logical fail there. Just because some people are begging and we are helping others win does not necessitate a logical link between the two. I help others because I want to. No other reason.

And it seems you need to learn a thing or two about entitlement as well. You’re not entitled to us acting as you wish.

Vol.5241:

Iarkrad.8415:

Would you rather a condescending monopolist with a third party agenda be elected?
#TeamKiel

And that is worse than a murderer?

Kiel should be punished for her crimes.

She didn’t murder anyone if you payed any attention at all to dialogue.

Risingashes.8694:

Tell them a true man works for his reward.

You may want to tell that to Evon as well. He doesn’t seem to be doing much work sitting there making money from our work with his transaction fees.

Risingashes.8694:

Do not throw your vote away on Kiel, who sits atop her throne of gold from her Sunshore Supply Crate scam. Down with RNG, down with Kiel.

Because everyone knows that it was Kiel that made money off of the Supply Crates and not Evon. /sarcasm

Oh. Right. They were bought in the Black Lion Trading Post for gems. Meaning that Evon made the money. That would mean the Evon perpetrated the Southsun Supply Crate scam. Which he then continued with the Dragon’s Jade Claim Ticket in Rich Dragon Coffers.

Evon is the perpetrator of RNG, not Kiel. A vote for Kiel is a vote against RNG.

Tinni.4351:

But right there is why this is a great living story episode. It is cruel to lore-fiends, thus making it an actual choice. A choice that actually “costs” something meaningful. Also the fact that you are in a no win situation is also a good thing because that’s the reality of choice. Our choices aren’t perfect. Often its the lesser of two evils or most appealing of two situations etc, etc.

But it’s only cruel to lore-fiends. Everyone else won’t really care.

Tinni.4351:

Still, I have nothing against hoping until the hope turns into unreasonable demand and the Q.Q starts. So I guess what I should say is that hope all you want but remember Anet has only promised that the Fractal promised by the winning candidate will be implemented. I.e. don’t rage at Anet just because your hopes of both Fractals being implemented eventually never comes to fruition because that was just your hope, nothing more.

I’m well aware of what hope is. And what they have promised. I’ll just hope they won’t lock away lore from us. But either way it is their story to tell. So if they choose to withhold lore forever it is their choice. Misguided and shortsighted, but their choice.

Risingashes.8694:

I suppose they were magical ships that sailed themselves. You’re living in a dream world.

Magnus may well be as culpable as Kiel, clearly she has to have some co-conspirators in order to avoid any official investigation in to her blowing up ships.

It’s called abandoning ship. Which was done if you actually payed any attention at all to the dialogue in the ‘Escort the Consortium dolyak to the ship’ instance.

Risingashes.8694:

All that were lost were Consortium contracts that were knowingly signed by people under a lot of stress who didn’t know what they were signing.

Are you implying that Norn and Char are incapable of reading? No, what really happened is that a few layabouts took advantage of Consortium resources and then wanted to slip out of their obligations without fulfilling their obligations.

It’s called ‘legal speak’, which is highly hinted at the Consortium using to trick people into being conscripted. Again, it seems you have avoided actually seeing the dialogue and lore scattered throughout. You may want to look into that before you make any more baseless claims.

Mathog.3157:

SynfulChaot.3169:

You’re right. It won’t take Evon out or remove the RNG boxes. But it will make our opinion of the practice very clear to ANet. Which we should all do.

They already know what we think about RNG.

Never hurts to make it perfectly clear.

But it does seem like they are starting to. Nothing in this stuff so far that is real-money RNG gated. I hope it stays that way.

Lord Krilik.3692:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Nope. Won’t stop hoping. :P

Remember. This isn’t an individual choice. It is up to the masses. You just gotta hope the masses agree with you to get the option you would prefer.

Both are very tempting options. Saying ‘you will never know what the other option would have been’ is quite cruel to lore-fiends.

I personally prefer Kiel on the council, but I would prefer to see the fall of Abbadon. So no matter what I choose, I cannot win.

Aww… Take a more optimistic approach and say that no matter what you choose, you DO win. You either get Kiel and the story develops with her in power, or you get the fractal you want!

Eh. I just don’t want Evon in power. And I really don’t want to miss either story. Lore-wise both are intriguing.

Tinni.4351:

Not to mention that Evon isn’t forcing anyone to hand their gold over to him! He’s just a Charr providing goods and services that good Tyrian adventurers may or may not choose to purchase. Saying voting against him is a protest vote against RNG is just silly! Evon losing the election will not make the RNG boxes go away! All it will do is take away your chance to witness an epic god vs god battle that changed the face of Tyria forever!!!!

Beside which a vote for Evon is a vote for cats! Everybody loves cats!

You’re right. It won’t take Evon out or remove the RNG boxes. But it will make our opinion of the practice very clear to ANet. Which we should all do.

Tinni.4351:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We can’t assume. We can, however, hope that they won’t tease us with two and only ever deliver one.

You should stop hoping that. It’s not a true choice unless you give something up. I mean, that’s probably why they are saying they will build from scratch the new fractal based on the choice. Go with Abaddon, kiss goodbye reactor and I am okay with that. Because then more permanent choice and better IMO.

Nope. Won’t stop hoping. :P

Remember. This isn’t an individual choice. It is up to the masses. You just gotta hope the masses agree with you to get the option you would prefer.

Both are very tempting options. Saying ‘you will never know what the other option would have been’ is quite cruel to lore-fiends.

I personally prefer Kiel on the council, but I would prefer to see the fall of Abbadon. So no matter what I choose, I cannot win.

Webba.3071:

Ohoni.6057:

Can’t we assume that the “losing” Fractal will still end up in the game, just delayed by a few months since the dev teams will be focusing on the “winner” instead?

No, we cant. No dev has stated or indicated that this will be the case.

We can’t assume. We can, however, hope that they won’t tease us with two and only ever deliver one.

Risingashes.8694:

Friends, it is common knowledge that Captain Ellen Kiel was instrumental in the terrorist bombing of privately owned ships on the shore of Southsun Cove. The loss of life and property was substantial by all accounts.

Yet has this terrorist been charged for her crimes? Has there even been an investigation in to these and her other devious crimes?

Since the leadership of Lion’s Arch has clearly decided to pull the wool over their eyes it is up to us, true citizens of Lion’s Arch, to enact justice with our own hands.

I call on all who cannot stand injustice to locate and place Captain Ellen Kiel under citizen’s arrest so she may answer her misdeeds.

Privately owned ship? Sorry, but no.

That was Lionguard ship that she knowingly scuttled. No lives were lost. All that were lost were Consortium contracts that were knowingly signed by people under a lot of stress who didn’t know what they were signing.

Now if you look at who is in charge of the Lionguard, you will see that it is Magnus, the Bloody Handed. Who I believe approved of Kiel’s actions (if you watched the cutscene after the ship was scuttled). The same Magnus who is vying to get her seated alongside himself in the Captain’s Council.

So before you accuse her of terrorism, you may want to check your facts.

Onshidesigns.1069:

Abbadon will most likely be fractal in time anyways.

So just wait for it and vote against RNG skins in the gem store.

That’s my hope. And guess. Gotta cross the fingers.

inazuma.7021:

In all honesty, Anet would be fools to not use both of these ideas. No matter which NPC wins, the other fractal should eventually be made as well. This election should just decide which gets made sooner.

I concur.

Iason Evan.3806:

Trying to make it about RNG is hilarious. This comes down to two long term choices: Do you want a Thaumanova Fractal or an Abaddon Fractal? If you are voting for WP costs or BLTC key prices for a month you are doing it wrong. Look at the long term. I fully expect every GW1 player to follow their hearts and every heart will lead to Abaddon.

#ElectEvon

I’m torn. I would prefer the Abbadon fractal, but I really want to let ANet know that I really, really abhor their RNG practices. And what better way than to vote against the in-game face of the Black Lion Trading Company.

Note: I am a GW1 player and lore-fiend. I really do want to see the Abbadon content. I just don’t know if I can force myself to vote for Evon due to his BLTC relations.

Ursan.7846:

I continue to post because you continue to use your personal metrics and personal anecdotes to try to gauge GW2’s economy’s health.

Et tu.

Rook.8735:

1. Abbadon did not used to be a “Human” god. The gods at the point of Abbadon’s defeat were worshipped by all existing races. Even the Charr worshiped some of the lesser known gods. Abbadon was worshiped by the Margonites, who used to be fishermen. Abbadon, supposedly gaining more power from a defeated god, tried to obtain more power. The gods then exiled Abbadon. This led to a war between Abbadon and the other gods where Abbadon was defeated. Abbadon’s death turned the Crystal SEA INTO THE Crystal DESERT. After Abbadon was defeated the gods left the world in what’s known as The Exodus. It is only AFTER the gods left that they became the “Human’s” gods, because the Humans were the only race who still believed they were still there. So what’s the big deal then? Research could spread that maybe the gods didn’t “dissapear.” Questions such as – Where did they go? Why did they go? Are they coming back? – could all be answered.

Actually that is false. Read here on the genesis of magic in the world of Tyria.

Ursan.

As I’ve now stated three previous times. From this discourse it is clear to me that I will not be able to convince you, nor will you be able to convince me. I tire of this conversation and will not continue. I have better things to do.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I have not once ignored the actual evidence, of which there has been little. Gem prices still seem to be creeping up, though. Very slowly, but it is increasing nonetheless. It is most likely close to achieving equilibrium, but it is not quite there yet. So no, you have not disproved the gem ratio thing.

You continue to make conclusions without any hard numbers to back it up. Can you at least try to quantify this “increase” and put a number on it? Or will you continue to just hand-wave evidence and state trends without any hard numbers?

I’d love to extract the data from spidy and fit a trend for it, but I don’t know how to so I’m going to do a super rough estimate.

On Apr 30th/May 1st, the high/low was 3G 36S and 3G 7S. Average to be around 3G 21S. The latest data we have is 3G27S and 3G14S, an average of around 3G20S. Even if you skew your data results by taking the low in May 1st (3G7S) and high now (3G27S), that is an increase of 20S in THREE MONTHS. Are you seriously saying that this increase is significant enough to cause disruptions in the economy so huge to call it “broken?” (And of course, the real trend I’m sure is much smaller than this since I purposefully skewed it in your favor.)

And again this is ignoring the actual mechanics of the exchange, which ensures that an infinite, continuous increase of the ratio will not happen.

Again, it’s a small increase. Look at the rate between mid-April to today. It has peaks and valleys, but it is trending upwards.

And no, that rate is not disrupting the economy. It is just so high that most don’t even consider it an option unless they are completely broke IRL or incredibly rich in game. That fact there makes it broken.

Ursan.7846:

SynfulChaot.3169:

And I’ve not once said I assumed that a majority were achievers. I’m not quite sure where you got that from…

I apologize for not explaining my discourse a bit better, but your basic metrics for a “broken” economy is a textbook complaint of the Achiever stereotype in the Bartel category of game players: that they want extrinsic rewards, and they want it easier. Your basic complaint is that 1. Gems are too expensive and 2. a majority of players want extrinsic rewards but cannot obtain them and are excluded, thus economy is broken. 1. is highly subjective, but 2. is most likely false. Base on data gathered from previous games, most of the player base actually does not place a huge importance on getting extrinsic rewards (i.e. charged lodestones, precursors). Thus your attempt to characterize the “majority of the playerbase can’t afford X, thus the economy is broken” must be taken with the context of “the majority of players actually don’t care about extrinsic rewards that you talk about.”

You cannot make base assumptions of the playerbase either. I, personally, play on Tarnished Coast. The RP server. Appearance is kinda highly important over here.

Yes, the ‘gems are too expensive’ argument is completely subjective. I hold that they are, you hold that they are not.

As for the ‘extrinsic rewards’ argument, I never claimed that a majority do. But when certain items are priced that much higher, that is a bad sign regardless of how many are seeking them. It is a sign of artificial scarcity.

Legendaries are already hard enough to get because of all of the other components you need to collect. Components including 100g directly, 77 items that you have a 1/3 chance in the Mystic Toilet to get, and 250+ of every single T6 mat. Gating them behind the sheer insanely high price and/or low RNG chance or obtaining a precursor in addition to all that is just unnecessary and shortsighted.

As for Charged Lodestones? They cost way more than any other. Why? Because they are used for far more recipes than any other lodestone, and in greater numbers. And they are one of the hardest to attain as what they drop from is more limited in number. Again, the fact that they are so rare and needed for more recipes than any other lodestone is just unnecessary and shortsighted.

And again. As I’ve stated twice before. From this discourse it is clear to me that I will not be able to convince you, nor will you be able to convince me.