Guild Wars 2

maha, I don’t particularly want to reply to you, as I’m not really invested in this subject anymore, because I had already said everything I had to say, several times, before this thread even came into being.

Either ANet will sort it out, or they won’t.

But, I guess I should put a few things straight, just so you don’t wander off thinking that making multiple assumptions, about someone you don’t even know, works…

So, here we go:

1. Yes, I would probably be even worse off meleeing, on Ranger, in zergs; but that doesn’t mean I feel in any way secure, or that I have “zero risk” at ranged, because I don’t.

In fact, I am pretty sure I would be far better off meleeing on a heavy armour, tanky type class/build.

Partly because, even though I love bows and pets and the ranger/hunter type class, I find heavy armour meleeing far, far, far (there aren’t enough "far"s in the world!) more easy and instinctive, even in WoW PVP.

2. I was referring to how they handle ranged vs melee in WoW, mainly.

But, as I say, I have discussed all this before, so I will leave that point there.

3. No, as I have said several times already, on this forum, I have only been playing for a few months (just under 3, actually); not 3 years.

Not everyone has been playing the game for a full 3 years and people assuming that everyone has, is one of the main problems (other than its design) that the game has.

I think I have already said, on this very thread, that I may well leave sooner, or later (if not, I have certainly said it elsewhere) and I have certainly said, on this thread, that it doesn’t look like this will be the game for me, in the long run.

So, other than to have a go at me, unnecessarily, there is no good reason for you to say that to me (or anyone, really).

4. No, the tl;dr is that I don’t want to be inefficient, or sub-optimal; regardless of if I can make my own groups and then be that way, or not.

So, more-or-less the exact opposite of what you said.

5. It’s not so much that I can’t be bothered to make a group, I’m just not interesting in being a group maker, or leader, especially at this stage.

Also, if someone can just go back to WoW, hop on their char and queue for a dungeon, by just opening a window and clicking a button, why on earth would they bother hanging around here making their own, quirkily inefficent, groups?

Especially as, in WoW, you don’t have to worry about class choice, or spec choice, or gear type, or weapon choice, or build choice, or even pet type on hunter (as long as you put your pet in a DPS spec).

The only, potential, downside is that you might (or might not) have to wait a little longer for a tank/healer.

Why would anyone, in their right mind, want to hang around here, going out of their way to make their own quirky groups and feeling like a bit of a weird outcast for doing it, when they can just do that?

I don’t just mean me; I mean anyone.

Met another WoW hunter in WvW, a few days ago and he grouped with me and said he was unhappy about pretty much all the same stuff as me.

I had mentioned one thing on map chat, but he came up with virtually all the rest of it, without prompting.

He was so unhappy, he asked me if I would go back to WoW with him and we could level a char together.

But, I play(ed) on the EU servers, so even if I had wanted to go back to WoW, I couldn’t have played it with him, anyway.

He was then on the next day and we grouped and did some WvW again, but then he suddenly just logged, without saying anything and I haven’t seen him on again since.

My guess is that he went back to WoW.

Now, I obviously know you don’t care about that, as you just told me to leave, as well; but ANet probably should care, if this is a regular type of occurrence (and I bet it is).

6. I’m not a “sir” and neither are a good proportion of the game’s playerbase, if you go by all the female voices regularly on TS3.

So, I think it may well be long overdue for you to stop assuming that all game players are male, unless stated/proven otherwise.

Especially as the “sir” was obviously not meant in a polite way, but rather a condescending one.

I know this is an old thread, but I think what the game needs, in general, is more armour for female chars, that is neither masculine, nor overtly feminine.

So, more feminine than the masculine version, with slightly less heavy shoulders and lower cut necklines etc.; but not, necessarily, full-on frou frou, with frilly skirts and high heels all the time (although, they can be nice too, sometimes).

So, a kind of happy balance between femininity and (relative) practicality.

There are some things like that already, but it could do with a few more.

An example would be my previous suggestion of a leggings and flatter-heeled boots version of the Daydreamer’s outfit.

uknortherner.2670:

Flakkenmarsh.6573:

uknortherner.2670:

Flakkenmarsh.6573:

In Aion, a cloud appears for you to sleep on (…when you use the sleep emote).

But I think we really need a /lemmetakeaselfie. It doesn’t have to actually take a picture. It just lets the characters around you come together to smile at an imaginary phone. :P

/twerk ?

I think the last thing I want to see is hipster pretentious nonsense like twerking and selfie-taking in-game.

But can you imagine what a twerking asura or charr would look like! XD

I’m trying my best not to!

Yeah, you know people talk about “longing for a simpler time”, when life was less complicated?

I’m starting to long for a more complicated time, where impressing people took a little more than twerking… xD

maha.7902:

Clearly there is something out of balance, when you simply aren’t allowed to use ranged weaps, most of the time, in most groups.

how? how is something “out of balance” when your community don’t want people purposely being inefficient in their groups?

There is nothing wrong with people not wanting people to be purposely inefficient.

There is something wrong, however, with the fact that a class, or weapon, choice is inefficient.

what you need to realise is that this game is balanced around pvp. ranged weapons are like jesus in pvp, ANet very rarely (extremely rarely…) split pvp and pve balance changes, so if you go and make ranged weapons on par with melee you basically end up with people who can pewpew against tanks on points in pvp while basically dealing the same damage that they would be if they used their melee weapon, except with zero risk.

I understand that, in theory, but I don’t feel I have “zero risk” in zergs, on ranger; far from it, in fact.

with this fact in mind, how will ranged weapons in pve ever be able to be even remotely on par with melee ones when the game balance isnt even designed around pve?

As I say, there are multiple, well established, ways to balance things.

You can look to other games for all that.

If the game will only ever be balanced around PVP, in a very simplistic way, then (even though I only really do WvW, ATM), it will never be the game for me, in the long run.

I know I could make my own groups, but I don’t really want to (permanently) be the quirky, poor relation type player, who does inefficient things, just for fun.

I want to be able to play on an equal footing.

If that will never be possible, then fine; this isn’t the game for me.

maddoctor.2738:

Tigaseye.2047:

Ultimately, I think the truth is that this is essentially a “Bring the class/weapon(s)/build.” game (and then play in a very formulaic way); rather than a “Bring the player.” (and then play in a more freeform/flexible way) game.

Actually in this game having a “good/solid” build will never make a player better. Player skill is more important than gear or build, so it’s actually a “Bring the player” game and not a “bring the class/weapon(s)/build” game.

A good player in blue/green gear will outperform a bad player in full ascended. Proof? Good players run dungeons naked, good players finish the hardest dungeons naked using only Rangers will longbows and bear pets.

I’m not disputing any of that, but that doesn’t stop people requiring people to use certain classes/weapons/builds etc. in group situations.

Or people viewing one class/weapon/build as superior to another.

Ultimately, I think the truth is that this is essentially a “Bring the class/weapon(s)/build.” game (and then play in a very formulaic way); rather than a “Bring the player.” (and then play in a more freeform/flexible way) game.

That approach will never be for me, unfortunately.

I will never be truly happy in a game where I can’t play on the class and/or with the weapons I prefer; especially in relatively casual group content.

When I think about that and then think about playing endless “Follow my leader.” in WvW, it becomes more and more apparent why people, who have played WoW, just end up (eventually) shrugging sadly and going back to it.

Because, even though it’s also flawed (and 10 years old!), it’s just a fundamentally more solid game.

I should really learn to trust my first impressions and not just hope that the handsome, but somewhat slow, prince will eventually grow a brain.

cranked.3812:

Tigaseye.2047:

This could well be true.

But, there’s not really any argument over what is true, or not.

Truth just is.

The argument is over whether it should be true, or not.

In other words, should it be the case that meleeing is better than ranged, for example?

…and yes, I get why it was made that way – as a lazy attempt to make it worthwhile to melee, by giving it more damage.

But, that doesn’t mean it’s right (from a good design/fulfilling gameplay POV) that you can’t use ranged weaps, if you prefer; unless you make/join a special “do what you like” type group.

What are you talking about? You should really re-read what you write before you post.

The advantages/disadvantages to melee vs ranged are very well balanced in this game. Do you really think you should be able to stand at 1500 range and pew pew things to death with the same amount of damage as a player standing at an enemies feet? How is that balanced or even fun for that matter?

So the truth comes out in your last sentence. You basically want to play with any build you want and still join any group that you want? Sounds pretty kitten selfish to me. The real problem in this game is players such as your self who just utterly refuse to group with like-minded people. There are plenty of people who want to play in cleric’s and range the enemies. Play with those people and everyone will be happy.

I’ve answered this so many times, already, I really can’t be bothered to answer it again, in depth.

You’re just making a whole load of assumptions, anyway, so there probably isn’t even any point in answering at all.

But, long story short – there are other ways to ensure that ranged and melee are (on average) equally effective and/or risky, other than just nerfing ranged weapon damage.

Other ways that other games use.

Clearly there is something out of balance, when you simply aren’t allowed to use ranged weaps, most of the time, in most groups.

The problem is, all of this game’s problems are intertwined, like a messy ball of string.

It’s an “I wouldn’t start from here, if I were you.” situation, IMO.

I think they had good and honourable intentions, when they first came up with the ideas for this game, but good intentions simply aren’t enough.

…and if you really don’t understand what I was trying to say in that comment, I honestly don’t know what to say.

I don’t really get why people are arguing about this?

They could just scale dungeons down, so they were soloable with about (I say “about” – wouldn’t have to be exact) the same amount of effort and skill as is required in a full group.

As long as it was a scaling thing, it wouldn’t stop people doing them in groups, if they prefer that.

I think all the unnecessary arguing is, basically, demonstrating the reason why a lot of people prefer to solo in the first place.

The natural thing for humans to want to be is social, but it does not feel social to be forced to group with antisocial people, all the time.

In other words, you can’t force people to be your friends – you have to let them do what they like, so they then hopefully want to be, of their own volition.

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ve also seen people complain about condition damage. The thing is that condition damage is damage over time rather than straight damage or however you want to call it. For trash mobs, conditions really are not effective compared to straight damage as these type of mobs tend to have low HP and die before the full condition duration has elapsed. If condition duration was reduced, with damage increased to the point it equals straight damage blow for blow, how’s this any different from abandoning condition damage now and going for straight damage?

This is a good example of why the whole “Make 7 Zillion types of gear.” thing was probably a bad idea, in the first place.

Tea.7025:

“Here, you can pick between three effects that are equally minor and contribute very little to how you play your character because we didn’t want this guy to accidentally perform worse than that other guy, even if the former one is just drunk and picks talents at random while equipping intellect plate on his warrior.”

The ability to choose is good but making every choice an optimal one is bad. It ultimately makes the decision and thus the options themselves more or less irrelevant.

Well, I disagree.

I think the skill in a game should be in the way you, physically, play it.

Which will, obviously, gradually improve over time.

Not in the “skill” of googling optimal builds.

…and intellect plate will, obviously, seriously nerf warrior, whatever build they choose.

So, I have no idea what you’re even try to saying with that.

Other than to try to describe a new player and your, apparent, desire to make them perform even worse than they would already do, in that new situation, by providing them with red herrings.

I know you said “drunk”, but it doesn’t matter how drunk someone is; unless they’re a very new player, they won’t gear a warrior in intellect plate.

Just to reiterate – I think there should be choices, just that none of them should be considered bad/unusable.

Paradox.1380:

Meleeing something is not the same as stacking in a corner. I haven’t seen stacking in months. I’m sure more people will come around. Stacking in a corner is NOT meta. its pug tactics. True Meta is Melee though. And I agree with it because you share boons better and most often its melee range weapons that have the best damage rotations.

This could well be true.

But, there’s not really any argument over what is true, or not.

Truth just is.

The argument is over whether it should be true, or not.

In other words, should it be the case that meleeing is better than ranged, for example?

…and yes, I get why it was made that way – as a lazy attempt to make it worthwhile to melee, by giving it more damage.

But, that doesn’t mean it’s right (from a good design/fulfilling gameplay POV) that you can’t use ranged weaps, if you prefer; unless you make/join a special “do what you like” type group.

Jahroots.6791:

That’s an interesting story, actually. I wonder if their attitudes are representative of the general WoW player base, didn’t play that game long enough to get a feel for it.

I think so.

I played it for about three and a half years.

The only dungeon I think is a bit dodgy, is one of the ones in the new xpac.

It’s an outdoor one and people climb up the banks to avoid groups of mobs, which can be annoying and actually more time-consuming than just killing them.

But, other than that, they’re pretty well designed.

The issue people have with them, is that it is very easy to outgear and/or outlevel them (they don’t scale) and that can obviously make them seem pretty easy.

But, as far as mobile bosses, varied mechanics and lack of exploits go, they are pretty good.

Occasionally, you might stack for heals, but it’s unlikely you will find yourself perma-stacking, or skipping most of the mobs.

Obviously, they have a trinity there, though, so it isn’t a direct comparison in that way, to be fair.

What I did gather was that WoW’s scope is infinitely larger and it’s designed with a completely different set of mechanics and reward system.

I would argue that GW2, on the other hand, is not only much smaller in scale but actually pushes players to try to earn as much gold as they can in the least possible time. There are very few items of worth in the loot tables, and RNG is heavily stacked against the player. Pretty much everything worth having needs to be bought, and this leads to a lot of the undesirable behaviours we’ve seen in game (intentionally failing events to farm, speeding through dungeons, exploits etc).

I’d also argue that these behaviours aren’t actually killing the game – most players gleefully take part in them – but there does seem to be a very vocal group of players who cannot stand this.

Well, if you look at the votes for the video, most are upvotes.

So, it would seem like most of the people who watched it are, actually, quietly agreeing and that the people trying to defend the current situation, for whatever reason, are a vocal minority.

But, I would certainly agree that there are potential problems with a game that requires people to either farm gold, to convert to gems, or spend RL money on them.

I tend to prefer the sub model for that reason, personally.

BrooksP.4318:

Pretty much don’t use skins until 80, and use outfits for leveling.

This.

I would definitely also recommend buying an outfit, or two, for levelling in.

I didn’t really get how it worked, either, when I was first levelling and I wasted a few charges.

Whereas, with the outfits, as long as you have the outfit selected and the box ticked/checked, they go over everything you have equipped (and everything you will equip, in future) and cost no charges.

If everyone was nice (as some people are), I would say no.

Unfortunately, not everyone is; so, yes.

Then people who wanted to run in groups would have to make sure they were pleasant, to make people want to run with them.

Instead of the current situation, where they think they can do and say what they like and people will still need them.

fluffdragon.1523:

By the six, you’re right! A game we’ve paid for and will continue to do so while ArenaNet monetizes on Cash Shop items that are only available through transactions of real money.

Well, you say that, but if you make enough gold in game you can buy gems with it to buy stuff…

Pretty sure that is what quite a lot of people are doing and at least partly why at least some of them are so determined to continue maximising things like dungeon speedrun efficiency.

So, if you’re still buying all your stuff with real life money, you may be one of the relatively few, at this stage, who still are and you will, almost certainly, be effectively subsidising people who aren’t.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Women wearing pants isn’t cross dressing and never was. Women wearing pants used to be seen as inappropriate, but it was never cross-dressing, considering the fact that women’s pants are different from men’s pants. It would only be cross-dressing if the woman would buy a pair of men’s jeans and wear that, or a man wearing a pair of women’s jeans.

I know it’s ridiculous, but many people did see it as cross-dressing, in the 1930s, or whatever.

They viewed it in the same kind of way as if (non-kilt) skirts had been made for (and worn by) men.

We’re just so used to it, now, that we no longer realise that.

I’d like /yawn (not at anyone) and /hug (at a target), but nothing that can be used in a bad way.

The WoW /spit isn’t exactly pleasant, for example. :/

Even things like /facepalm and /violin are better avoided.

Flakkenmarsh.6573:

Change: /laugh @

I don’t want to laugh with the person. I want to laugh at them! -_-

(in a nice way, of course)

Other people might not be as nice as you, though.

Better to stick with “with”.

I agree with you up to a point – I think it should be possible to make a truly viable healing build, for example.

However, I am concerned about the idea of being able to remove heals entirely (without other changes).

As that would probably end up with people trying to make everyone run full DPS, with no heals, in dungeons and then calling them names when they, almost inevitably, died.

…and we have more than enough of that kind of thing, already.

Probably a bigger issue, TBH, is the Healing Spring type heals, as they are yet another thing that encourages perma-stacking.

Although, if all the other things that encourage it didn’t exist anymore, even they probably wouldn’t be too much of an issue; as people could just hop on and off them, as needed.

Going back to speaking about heals, in general, though – I think if they removed them all (or all the active ones), they would need to make us tougher and/or make us have more HP.

Otherwise, we would just be dying too fast, all the time (unless we had a dedicated healer with us).

So, it would probably end up being a passive survivability vs the current active one.

Jay.1085:

Also dont use other MMOS as examples because they all have exploits that people use to clear things in a efficient manner.

No.

Generally speaking, Blizz do their best to keep WoW exploit-free and if players find an exploit, they will try to fix it, ASAP.

Also, if people knowingly use exploits (rather than reporting them), they risk getting banned.

Probably, normally, only temporarily, but still.

Blizz have some faults, but they take stuff like this seriously.

I know that is easy to just say, but even their lower level dungeons don’t let you cheese them (until you outlevel them).

For example, mobs don’t reset – you pull them, you fight them, or they will keep chasing you until you run out of the portal!

That may, or may not, be desirable for everyone, but still.

The players acknowledge this about WoW, as well.

I was at the end boss of a dungeon once, as a newish player and I failed to grab a rope to swing off a ship, in time, as I had never done it before.

So, I panicked and jumped down, instead (so I didn’t get burned) and realising that I probably would get back to the deck of the ship in time, I hesitated, debating whether to try to run back, or not.

The other players started raging at me, thinking I was trying to cheat and said “This is WoW. It’s not like other games, you can’t exploit.”.

…and at that point I was killed by some AOE, which surrounded me, even though I was about 50 miles from the boss.

I may not have liked their attitude, as I wasn’t trying to do anything wrong, but it proves a point about not all games being created equal, in this way.

Before anyone says “Go back to WoW.”, to me – I may do at some point, but it does have some issues that I am less impressed by, especially lately.

It’s by no means perfect, either – it’s just that this doesn’t happen to be one of its problems, relatively speaking.

Tea.7025:

Going to weigh in as someone who isn’t a veteran of this game but has been around the MMORPG scene for many years now.

There is always a meta in every game. The developers can discourage it by attempting to equalize and often, sadly enough, homogenize gear, stats, traits, abilities or encounters. There will still be an optimal choice and the best case scenario is that the difference between optimal and non-optimal setup is less than five percent. Which, as I mentioned, is most often achieved through homogenization.

I’d rather have a meta that I can opt out of (the game itself does not restrict me from any content based on my gear) than balance achieved by forcefully evening out the playing field and in the process botching diversity.

Well, I personally disagree.

On balance, I prefer what WoW did, in this area.

They try to maintain balance between classes and specs – so, they’re all pretty viable for PVE (as far as I’m aware), which is great.

No one should have to abandon a class, or spec, they love and relate to, just to maximise their DPS, or whatever.

Same with talent builds – they’re all very close in terms of effectiveness and the choices are mostly about flavour and/or are slightly more situational and that is how it should be.

You can still, in theory, improve DPS/HPS etc. by choosing one over the other.

But not to the extent that anyone in a PUG group will feel the need to try to force you to change, or kick you from a group of you don’t.

The only exception I ever heard of re. this, since the changes, was the hunter before me in a dungeon group being kicked for refusing to not use Barrage.

But, that was just because Barrage tends to pull random mobs; not because it does worse DPS.

In fact, it does (or did) slightly higher DPS than the other two options in that tier.

So, you still have decent choices and that is before you even add glyphs into the equation.

But, none of them throw anything dramatically out of proportion, or balance, that is the point.

False choice is no choice and just leads to animosity and upset amongst the playerbase.

I do understand that, when it first happened, some people missed certain things they had used, on certain classes/specs/builds.

For instance, some people enjoyed quirky builds with a little of every spec in them, even if they weren’t optimal.

But most people adapted well to it (because it was well done) and most people say they prefer a well balanced game, to one with lots of supposed choices, but no real balance between them.

Loved the video (and your accent!) and couldn’t agree more.

Refreshingly honest.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Dhorghar.5249:

Nemesis explains really well what’s wrong with the berserker meta in his new video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5ltIBr73s

LOLOLOLOL. Video made me laugh. If content takes longer than it already does… I’ll quit and Anet won’t get anymore of my money.

That guy just wants the Trinity in GW2 because he mains a Necro. He sounds really bitter.

How much RL money do they actually get out of you, anyway, just out of interest?

Because, TBH, I don’t really see why anyone, who spends a lot of RL money on the game, would be that bothered about maximising time spent vs gold earned efficiency?

Maybe you could enlighten me?

I get what you’re saying and it is, undoubtedly, a big increase.

On the other hand, I don’t really mind contributing, within reason, especially as the game is basically F2P after the initial purchase price (which, let’s face it, is probably not much more than the price of a single, non-updated game).

But, my position on all this is kind of assuming (or, in the hope that…) the entire game will be properly maintained and updated and any issues corrected.

After all, not many people are going to want to spend a lot of RL money, in the gemstore, if they find that isn’t the case.

As, in the longer run, you will of course tend to buy more stuff, to accessorise an already good, well-functioning, enjoyable game, than you will a game with issues that continue to be unaddressed.

My other issue, ATM, is that I have more than a sneaking suspicion that if I spend RL money in the gemstore I am, basically, financially subsidising a group of players with bad attitudes.

Many of whom don’t even want to bother playing with newer players (and when they are forced to, are often extremely rude), only run things like dungeons for the rewards and simply won’t allow people to play the way they prefer, around them.

That is an issue for me.

As it is one thing to help subsidise nice, patient players, who just happen to not have a lot of spare cash, ATM; but quite another thing to find yourself subsidising obnoxious, tight, greedy people, with no patience, or respect, for other players (including the very people who may very well be subsidising them).

Of course, the two issues are very much connected, as a lot of the justification for their behaviour is down to the game design itself.

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

Ideally, any (legitimate) form of playing the game would reward people equally.

This I cannot agree with – for a game to be fun people have to feel like their skill, aptitude and improvement matter.
If I take hundreds of hours playing, iterating and improving my build and myself I wouldn’t enjoy it very much to see someone just facerolling the keyboard and getting equal rewards.

It invalidates the whole concept of skilled play – it’s a very communist approach to gaming – and communism doesn’t really work in any situation.

Plus – Guild Wars 2 already does this reward equality quite well. You could dungeon run pretty hard and with a good party and make some money. You can make roughly the same amount in the same amount of time doing Silverwastes chest farming, or other open world farm where you basically have to press 1 and tag and nothing else.

I would say it’s pretty equal like that.

Also the efficiency is everything gold running attitude has nothing to do with having fun or not. Because fun is where you make it – for me fun is getting gold. So it is fun for me – but not in the same way it would be fun for you.

Hold on…

I’m not talking about any level of skill being equally rewarded.

I’m talking about any viable way of playing the game, or choice (played to the same level of skill), being equally rewarded.

But, this is the fundamental problem, here.

I don’t view choosing stuff from a list of choices as “skill”.

Or, more likely, just finding guides online and copying them; or straight-out being told what you should pick, by other players.

If you then actually play in a way that maximises the potential of your “choices” (whether they are actually your choices, or not…), then I can agree there is a certain amount of skill in that, however.

So, I’m saying that there is an issue, if only one “choice” is correct, because that doesn’t identify level of player skill, at all; that just restricts true choice.

For example, as a ranger (and a hunter in WoW), I want to play with a bow all the time.

But, that simply isn’t a viable choice in speedruns, as it doesn’t fit in with the skip>permastack>melee thing (due to ranged weapons doing less damage at short range).

So it doesn’t matter how well I might eventually play it and how well I might try to maximise my bow playing potential; it isn’t ever going to be viable, in a dungeon group, unless things are changed.

Restricting people like that and enforcing only one “right” choice is bad design.

…and I’m sorry, but a game should be an enjoyable experience.

If you only enjoy getting rewards, that is fine too, but that should never be at the expense of other people enjoying the actual gaming experience.

Obviously, over time, even the best gaming experiences will become stale.

But, you should never be in a situation, where the first time someone does an instance they find it boring, if they do as they’re told, due to the fundamental game, weapon and traitline design favouring certain very limited things and the super-dull playing methods employed as a result.

That is an insane situation and something I have never experienced before this game.

Harper.4173:

Because his claim of financial equality is absurd in a game where you can literally BUY GOLD WITH REAL MONEY.
Also the richest players in the game make money OFF THE TRADING POST and not by running dungeons.

I don’t really know of many people that have over 5k gold and still run dungeons regularly for a profit.
Once you have gold you have far, far better ways of making more than running the dungeons over and over again.

IDK about that – in my old guild, people ran dungeons for gold all the time.

Maybe you’re right and some people can make far more gold doing other things.

But that doesn’t mean everyone is doing that, or that no one cares what they make in dungeons, because they clearly do.

I tend to agree with you that it is often easier to just work IRL (especially considering the nightmarish atmosphere of speedruns) and then spend your RL money for ingame stuff.

But considering some of these people may not have RL jobs (maybe they’re too young, for example) and/or may come from parts of the world with lower average incomes, it can and does often matter to them.

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tigaseye.2047:

Game should be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

The OP is not asking to make dungeons more interesting. He’s asking for those using the fastest tactics to be slowed down so he can feel like his gold gain is closer to theirs. The OP is not calling for play to be more interesting, his beef is in fact about gold.

That’s not really how I read it.

He says; " People agrue that they would like to run other gears and run dungeons just as fast.".

That, to me, just means that he wants more equality in gear (and/or thinks other people do).

Obviously, people don’t want to intentionally reduce their own effectiveness (that would be silly); but that doesn’t mean they don’t want any choice, at all.

Giving people several viable choices, as opposed to only one right answer and a ton of wrong ones, is good design.

It makes for a fun game.

The problem is that the various stack and skip friendly mechanics in the game + the design of the current dungeons practically dictate everything you do.

From what you can skip, to where you should stack, to what weapons you should use (melee, obviously), to what gear you should use, to what utilities you should use, to what builds…

That is boring, tedious, ill thought-out design and makes the game less enjoyable than it could otherwise be.

This " use this, do this, skip this, wear this" is the definition of a meta. No matter how gear or dungeons are changed there will always be a “do this then that then skip this and use this skill here” procedure type way of approaching content.

A change in how dungeons work will simply make the current dungeon protocol obsolete. It’ll take a few weeks and a new one will be put in place. The steps might be different and their order changed but it will still be a to-do list.

You can’t design content that doesn’t have a “best way of doing it” – and once that best way gets found out people will use it. And enforce it.

No, if you look at a game like WoW, it’s not like that.

Some people like efficiency there, but it’s not anywhere near as draconian, or rigid.

Yes, there are “best ways” to do each boss, or whatever; but there is not an identikit (skip>permastack>melee) way to do virtually every single part of every dungeon ever, like there seems to be in this game.

Not to mention that you can’t stipulate terms, in advance, there – you get who you get.

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Fermi.2409:

EcoRI.9273:

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

Dear lord, literally “I don’t like that people can play a way I don’t like, nerf them to my level!”. The ridiculousness is real.

Sad but true.

Nobody’s stopping OP from gearing to make the same kind of money but the OP. Unlike RL, where income is largely influenced by circumstance, the tools are always available to you for use.

Not wanting to use them, but at the same time insisting people who do be punished so you don’t feel less efficient is not only silly, but childish.

I’m not surprised by the mindset. I’m sure a lot more people think the same way, but hide it through circumlocative arguments about why the meta needs fixing.

Game shouldn’t be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

So if he doesn’t care about the gold and doing the dungeon is his fun – isn’t his fun his own reward? Why does he have to care how much gold I can make?

Well, yes you’re right, he cares to an extent, because it’s human nature for people to feel somewhat cheated if they can’t make the same amount of money, for the same amount of “work”, as someone else.

It’s more that he still, almost certainly, doesn’t care about it as much as the people who care about nothing else…

He also cares about about having equal choices and immersion (assuming he’s being serious – I know some people think he isn’t), that is the point.

Ultimately, this is supposed to be an enjoyable game, not some kind of horrible job, so ideally you wouldn’t have to sacrifice your fun to maximise your profit.

Ideally, any (legitimate) form of playing the game would reward people equally.

I think that is a fair enough thing to expect game makers to strive for.

Rather than allowing their design to, effectively, divide the community into two groups; the “efficiency is everything” gold farmers, who don’t care if the runs aren’t fun (as long as they’re quick) and everyone else.

Just thought I should say that I gave soloing the first two dungeons (on story mode) a go, on Ranger, and managed it

I had tried Caudecus’s Manor previously, but I was in all Berserker gear at the time, so it was a bit of a nightmare trying to juggle big groups of mobs.

Just couldn’t quite stay alive long enough for CDs to refresh…

But, now I have Soldier’s gear and some ascended rings and an amulet (still only exotic Ruby Orichalcum earrings in Zerker stats, though) and it was still not what I would call easy as such, but it was doable.

Used drake pets.

I’m still quite new to this game, so if you are too, thought you might like to know so you can maybe give it a go.

Not saying your idea shouldn’t still be implemented.

As, as I say, it was reasonably challenging and took a while (and may be harder on some classes), but still.

Fermi.2409:

Tigaseye.2047:

So, the OP’s idea of fun is immersion and he doesn’t see why he can’t run dungeons in a different way and still keep-up with others financially.

I don’t see what is wrong with that POV?

The problem with that point of view is that he wants to kitten others just because they’re playing in a way that he doesn’t like. It’s hugely selfish and utterly ridiculous.

Well, only if he sees it that way.

Just because you make a suggestion that would nerf other people’s “choices” (like any of this is actually a true “choice” people make, lol), as opposed to buffing your own, doesn’t mean you’re consciously trying to hurt them.

It could just be that a nerf to the OP thing seemed like a better (or more interesting) idea, than a buff to the underpowered thing, to him, at the time.

Doesn’t mean he was, necessarily, sitting there rubbing his hands together in glee at the idea of people’s gold farming being ruined, by them slipping over occasionally.

Although, quite frankly, it is a pretty funny idea.

Kaleban.9834:

Why do people post thoughtful, and at times long winded responses to what is either an OBVIOUS troll post, or a post that is so deluded as to defy belief?

This thread has gone on for two pages over an argument with a premise that is IMHO unbelievable.

I mean, come on.

Why is it unbelievable in your opinion?

I think you really mean unthinkable – as in, you think something like this would affect you adversely, so you try to belittle it.

I don’t particularly like it as a suggestion, but travelling at speed IRL might make you slip occasionally (and/or get tired), so I don’t really think it’s “unbelievable” as a concept.

Fermi.2409:

Tigaseye.2047:

That’s not really how I read it.

He literally came out and said that that’s why he made the topic.

OK, do you mean, here(?):

“And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.”

So, the OP’s idea of fun is immersion and he doesn’t see why he can’t run dungeons in a different way and still keep-up with others financially.

I don’t see what is wrong with that POV?

To me, it is a given that most people won’t want to reduce their own effectiveness, financially.

But, if he was just about maximising profit and not about fun gameplay, he would just suck it up, stick on his Zerker gear, build for DPS, use melee weaps and skip and stack where told to.

He wouldn’t be here complaining, at all, he would just be counting his gold (like most of the rest of you are)…

As long as he doesn’t want some kind of financial advantage over those playing differently, why shouldn’t he ask for more equality?

As I say, not sure I agree with the specific suggestion, but I think it’s fair enough to try to search for solutions.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tigaseye.2047:

Game should be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

The OP is not asking to make dungeons more interesting. He’s asking for those using the fastest tactics to be slowed down so he can feel like his gold gain is closer to theirs. The OP is not calling for play to be more interesting, his beef is in fact about gold.

That’s not really how I read it.

He says; " People agrue that they would like to run other gears and run dungeons just as fast.".

That, to me, just means that he wants more equality in gear (and/or thinks other people do).

Obviously, people don’t want to intentionally reduce their own effectiveness (that would be silly); but that doesn’t mean they don’t want any choice, at all.

Giving people several viable choices, as opposed to only one right answer and a ton of wrong ones, is good design.

It makes for a fun game.

The problem is that the various stack and skip friendly mechanics in the game + the design of the current dungeons practically dictate everything you do.

From what you can skip, to where you should stack, to what weapons you should use (melee, obviously), to what gear you should use, to what utilities you should use, to what builds…

That is boring, tedious, ill thought-out design and makes the game less enjoyable than it could otherwise be.

Either you, personally, like or need something that costs gems, or you don’t, TBH.

I think there is very little point in asking other people to suggest things on your behalf, as we obviously don’t know what your personal tastes/requirements are.

If you don’t like, or need, anything you could always suggest something you would like.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Fermi.2409:

EcoRI.9273:

And it is a problem because it is ruining the way I prefer the game to be played. I prefer game systems to be immersive. Usain Bolt can’t do 1mile dashes in real life so neither should my character. And yes I can make a LFG for “no swiftness no running” but I hate the fact that everyone who will use swiftness and mobility skills, will make so much more money than me.

Dear lord, literally “I don’t like that people can play a way I don’t like, nerf them to my level!”. The ridiculousness is real.

Sad but true.

Nobody’s stopping OP from gearing to make the same kind of money but the OP. Unlike RL, where income is largely influenced by circumstance, the tools are always available to you for use.

Not wanting to use them, but at the same time insisting people who do be punished so you don’t feel less efficient is not only silly, but childish.

I’m not surprised by the mindset. I’m sure a lot more people think the same way, but hide it through circumlocative arguments about why the meta needs fixing.

Game shouldn’t be about making gold.

That is the point.

People who are complaining about lack of enjoyable gameplay in dungeons are not about the gold; that is the entire point.

They want to have fun.

Also, if the game was redesigned to be less cheesable, they could (or should) up the drops, to make up for the fact that dungeons would then take slightly longer

I don’t, necessarily, agree with the OP’s idea of what is ruining dungeons, ATM, but I do applaud his call to make them more interesting.

HawkMeister.4758:

I would advise to NOT get two of the same race.
Each should pick a race they favor most to, on their own, experience the personal stories that differ till about lvl 60.
As already mentioned for the normal leveling and open world experience it´s trivial to come to the other´s map by entering the LA portals.

It´s like with beds.
Everybody should have his/her own and for fun-times you chose one of them.

Um, yeah, most marriages aren’t like that.

Would be nice.

I actually often prefer playing in groups, when the group is big enough and anonymous enough that you still have some autonomy.

But I often end up disliking small, intimate groups, as they are so often ruined by an obnoxious player (or players), basically, trying to bully everyone else.

So, sometimes, it would be nice to just be able to solo some instances.

Of course, the double-edged sword in this game is the scaling, but I’m sure they could add an option for soloing, fairly easily, if they wanted.

Randulf.7614:

You can add as many rewards as you like, but that isn’t the fundamental issue why so many pvers avoid dungeons.

It’s the culture and the exclusivity of the community that comes with it. And that is inherent with most MMO dungeons.

Whilst kicking and speed running and criticising people for having “the wrong build” are as prevalent as they are, dungeons will never be popular enough. It is an ongoing circle – players often discourage lesser skilled players from dungeon groups and thus the number of dungeon players becomes increasingly less overtime, leading to a vicious circle where dungeon development gets abandoned.

Dungeon specific items and more imaginative dungeons are fine ideas. They just aren’t enough to counter the wider issue.

I totally agree, but even more than that (as I have said before) the fundamental design of the game is severely flawed, as it encourages skipping and permastacking, in so many ways.

Change that design to make it better to not skip, or stack and at least it will force/allow people to play and replay the same dungeons in a more imaginative and less formulaic way.

Meaning it will be less about a few vets having learned how to do a dungeon (and criticising and kicking “noobs” who haven’t, yet) and more about just playing the game in a natural way.

Same really goes for traits and skills and so on – make each choice more equal in value, so there are no wrong choices and people will be far more on an equal footing, but still have some choice available to them.

Meaning vets won’t feel the need to lecture the “noobs” on their wrong choices, or feel like underappreciated (and unpaid) teachers, when the “noobs” (inevitably) don’t like being lectured.

Dante.1763:

Azala Yar.7693:

What if they redesigned them, so that they looked a lot better with better effects?

After all some of those with them say the stats are not important.

Not even then would those i know stick around, they crafted it because the stats are slightly better and they currently have nothing better to do or better to spend their mats on. As for improving them, thats unlikely to happen(Highly, Highly unlikely), look at how long Charr players have been asking for armor to be revamped so it fits them(Aka: Since the game has came out.)

Edit: Again its about the backlash, if ANET decided to pull Ascended armor stats it would be huge amount because of the massive number of people who crafted it because it was BIS.

They wouldn’t need to pull it – they would just need to add a second tier of exotics that equal it (or just bump up the existing exotics to do so).

That is what happens with gear progression, in other games; the new tier lower gear becomes as good as (or better than) the old tier higher gear.

Then they could justifiably say “You wanted gear progression like other games? Well, you got it.”.

Not saying they will do this, but they could have.

EnlightenedNavigator.8296:

To clarify for those who don’t understand, because this has been said a few times now, people are not supporting contradictory points. To understand what we mean you have to recognize the difference between the game and the individual. The stats do not matter to the game. They are negligible. All of the content in this game is still easy with full exotic. However, the reason we are claiming that the stats are everything is that they are everything TO THE INDIVIDUAL. I value the numbers not because they are going to change the game for me and allow me to sweep over content that you could hardly attempt, but because I like having the biggest numbers on my character.

I know what you’re saying, but this is really not a particularly relevant point, when you’re talking about gear grinds.

When people do the top tier and difficulty of raiding, in WoW, all of the content is possible in the second-to-top difficulty gear.

Otherwise, no group would be able to do the difficulty, until they had the gear that drops from the difficulty, if you see what I mean?

…and yet, even though it is possible, they are still rewarded with the top difficulty gear.

So, they are able to acquire it, just as they are here, as it is “important to the individual”.

Although, actually, it’s not just “important to the individual” from a purely collection POV; it also helps them repeat the content (and all content) more quickly and effectively, in future, so makes them more in-demand as players.

Just as ascended seems to do, to some extent, here.

If you are going to try to say that top tier raids in WoW aren’t “easy” to do, in second-to-top difficulty gear, then fine – let’s just talk about LFR.

All LFR raids are now (or were until fairly recently) easy, with everyone in dungeon gear.

… and yet, even though they are easy, they still award LFR gear (and that is as high as many casual players go, anyway).

So, it’s often not about whether you strictly speaking need it, or not; it’s often about the fact that, if the gear exists, many people will feel the need to acquire it.

Whether they really need it, or not.

…and it’s still a gear grind, either way.

…and it’s still all (or almost all) about the stats; because, if it wasn’t, no one would care if they were taken away.

This observation isn’t even taking PVP into consideration, where inequalities in gear are, generally, considered to be even more more important.

Waffle free version:

Gear grinds everywhere are often about what is important to the individual, not (strictly speaking) to the game, but that “important” thing is still (mainly) the extra stats.

Whether people admit it, or not.

Ankushp.7245:

Don’t you have any will to work towards some goal in the game? Here I am hoping for some thing new (gearwise – Gimmeh legendary armor!!!) to work towards in this expansion and you are asking the whole game to be taken a step backwards……

None of the content in this game puts pressure on players to get special gear except fractals which one can avoid. We only recently had a massive discussion on how the game is skill based and gear has lower importance….Its just to make your toon LOOK cool!!

I know you’re not asking me but, personally, I don’t, no.

Or, not when it comes to gear grinds and/or crafting, anyway.

It took me quite a long time playing WoW (I think about 6 months?) before I bothered with crafting, at all.

I don’t enjoy crafting in games, so it’s something I will generally only do seriously, once I have decided that a game is something I really want to invest a significant amount of (ongoing) time in.

So far, I’m not feeling that way about this game.

Especially as, to me, its relative lack of gear grind, or need to craft, is one of the relatively few reasons I like it; other than for far more hard to pin-down reasons, like the way it looks aesthetically and its general atmosphere.

So, making me feel like I should craft here will make me less likely to want to play at all.

As there is at least one other game, that unfortunately requires gear grinds and crafting, that I think is better in other ways.

So, why stay to gear grind and craft in this, when I could gear grind and craft in that?

I expect I will just be told I should leave the game, after daring to say this and that’s fine.

Maybe I should?

Behellagh.1468:

Want tiny heads and enormous thighs (and very long legs)? Try Blade & Soul.

It’s like they took the waist up of a Skipper doll and attached to to the hips and legs of a Barbie doll. And then slapped on huge breasts to try to move the center of gravity back up to the navel.

:/

At least they have long legs, I guess..

WoW female humans have stumpy legs (with gigantic calves!), as well.

Also, her head is bigger compared with her thighs than the WoW human’s, believe it, or not.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

heartless.6803:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

heartless.6803:

Animations are generally better

This is one thing I disagree on.

I’ve rarely seen female characters in games properly animated. Either their animations are overly sexualized (Guild Wars 2 is guilty of this too) or the devs just copy-pasted the male animations on the female character’s rig, making her look weird and too masculine (this is particularly the case in Mass Effect among other games).

To me it came from playing a lot of wow, where most male models just absolutely stink. I played a Female Human, because males looked stupid and had stupid animations. It carried over here when I made my guardian.

To be honest the women in WoW looked no better than the men. If anything, they looked worse, cause WoW was low-poly, so lots of straight-hard edges, which looks okay on male toons cause angular shapes are percieved as masculine, but it doesn’t look so good on female toons.

Yeah, but now they have smoothed all those angles out, in a purely convex way and they have tiny heads (smaller than before, for some unknown reason) and enormous thighs.

Which, perhaps, some men don’t mind, but most women (almost certainly) do.

Because they now look like nothing more than braindead baby machines.

They looked better with the angles.

ETA: I’m referring to the human female, here, BTW – the Belf female actually looks a lot better than it did (as long as you don’t look too closely at the face…).

I’m female and I only play female chars (when I have a choice, which I generally do).

I feel kind of strange playing a male char, personally; but I have no problem, at all, with
people who choose to play the opposite gender.

I think the things that are often said about men who play female chars are pretty offensive, because unless they are pretending to be female IRL (and especially, if they’re trying to get special treatment, or something), it isn’t affecting anyone else adversely.

So, people should just mind their own business.

BTW, my experience of being a woman who plays a female char, is that you generally get people (males) trying to take advantage of you (to get stuff, or whatever); not the other way around.

Either because they assume you’re actually male, or just because they think all women are a soft touch.

My problem is not so much that I can’t jump, but that I’m scared of heights.

Running off cliffs in WvW isn’t so bad, but delicate little jumps onto small platforms, especially when I have to look down, does my head in.

Also, I’m often lagging pretty badly, with low fps, which obviously makes the speed reliant (disappearing platforms etc.) ones really hard.

There is no (legitimate) reason for adult characters to dress as babies, or school children…

I wouldn’t have a particular problem with any of the rest of it.

Dark Saviour.9410:

B2P with expansions + No cash shop is best.

They would have to charge a lot for the initial game and each xpac, for that to work, though.

If you think of WoW’s prices, they would probably end up wanting to charge at least $350 for the initial game and then, say, $250 for each xpac.

Not saying they would actually charge that, but if you removed the gemshop, that is probably around what you would be looking at charging, for a game to bring in around the same amount per player, as a game like WoW does (with their initial price + subs).

Obviously, I’m guesstimating here, to an extent, but still.

Gav.1425:

Can they put some good stuff back in the gem store or what? I’m not trying to look like 80’s Poison Ivy from the Batman comics.

Just googled her and I think that is kind of what I am trying to make my char look like, actually…

I even asked for a leggings and flat-heeled thigh boots (instead of the skirt and heels) version of the Daydreamer’s Finery, yesterday…

Kinda hard to give you my money when all there is in the gem store is a salad jump suit and piglet mini pets.

Bring back the Raiments of the Lich and some Black Feathered Wings if you want my money. The game should be hitting 1000 days old soon. I was expecting something a little more special.

Ah yes, 1000 Days, that ultra special anniversary we all celebrate religiously…

But seriously, just wondering why you didn’t buy the Raiments when they were available recently?

I can understand that you probably missed the wings, as they were only available very briefly.

I agree with you that, in general, there should be more choice; although, I don’t necessarily agree with you re. which specific things are better than others.

But, that is why we need more choice, at all times – as we all prefer different things.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Hawkeye.2903:

Where things went off the rails was that Exotic is too easily accessible and it diminished all value of “top tier accomplishment”

I disagree with this statement, but I am also a GW1 veteran. To me it should be easy to get BiS gear by the time you are max level. Then the rest of the game is simply about playing. About doing the things you enjoy for shinies that you like. And that’s what the game was sold as. That’s what we expected, and then they turned it on it’s ear.

The problem I saw was that there weren’t elite areas with super rare shinies to keep people entertained. There is no FoW or Vabbian armor. There is no Sorrow’s Furnace. There is no Urgoz Warren for that super rare awesomesauce bow skin. Yes, we have legendaries to strive for, but there weren’t enough of them. Not enough desirable variety. Not to mention farming in this game is awful.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve also played those other games where you must have ‘x’ armor rating / iLevel / whatever to progress to ‘y’ content. I hated it. The never ending gear slog. Always worrying about if I was “ready” to play, as opposed to just being able to go out and do it. I hated it, it’s part of the reason I don’t play those games. I thought I would find something different here, as I did with it’s predecessor. I thought they wanted to break that mold, and in the beginning they did. Unfortunately they weren’t able to stick to their vision, and it saddens me.

I wasn’t a GW1 player – I cut my MMO teeth in WoW – but I still totally agree with you on this.

There are a lot of very good things about WoW (its success proves that), but the gear (stat) grind isn’t one of them, IMO.

This becomes even more apparent when you are, finally, (relatively) free of it.

They should have resisted importing it here, whatever some people may have asked for.

layshu.7512:

One thing I would really love to have one day (and I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one wishing for this) is to have dyeable weapons

Yes.

I would love to be able to change my Crimson Lion skins to blue and gold Lion skins, for example.

Cyrill Faust.9340:

“We will never add more levels to the game, we will never add more tiers of gear to the game. The tiers and levels we have today will be the tiers and levels we have for the rest of the life of Guild Wars 2.”- Colin Johanson 2015
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-01-29-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-expansion-level-cap-gear-tier

Just gonna leave this here.

That’s a mistake, if you ask me.

Had he said that, at the point where there was no ascended gear, then it would have been a good thing to say.

Saying it after there was ascended gear introduced, however, is a bit of a cop out.

Kind of like: “You know I said I would never cheat on you? Well, I obviously did and I’m still seeing him/her and don’t intend to stop…..but, I promise I won’t cheat on you again, apart from with him/her obviously.”.

Well, thanks for that, good to know…

alwinp.2791:

3. you have the option to ignore it and use exotic

The total gain from exotic vs ascended (full set) is only 5%

5% is actually quite a lot.

People min/max in WoW for a lot, lot, less than 5%.

alwinp.2791:

because the pve mechanics neglect pretty much everything from gear and is purely based on party stacking.

This is a separate issue, about the fundamentally flawed design of the game, that bothers me far more than gear discrepancies ever will.

Some of you guys seem to want it both ways…

On the one hand, according to you, the stat increases are almost pointless.

Whereas, on the other, you would (apparently) be close to heartbroken if you lost them.

Make up your minds.

I totally agree with you.

I, also, feel that the relative lack of gear grind is one of the best things about this game and so a complete lack of one would be even better.

Any grinds (crafting, or whatever) should be merely for aesthetic stuff.

Other than that, we should all be left to run free and participate in the parts of the game we enjoy most, on an equal footing as possible with everyone else.

Equality is what makes for good games, as well as good societies.

EnlightenedNavigator.8296:

No. God, no. Please. Everyone who made ascended for the stats would feel cheated instantly.

Well, that would be ridiculous.

Like someone objecting to their WoW raid stuff being usurped by the new tier/xpac gear.

No one makes a promise to you that that gear will always be the best.

It is the best at the time; that is all.

In a game like this, where gear is not even supposed to be the main focus, people should be even more prepared for the eventuality that things may well be changed back to an even footing, at some point.

You want endgame gear progression, in a game that was supposed to have none?

Well, then you take the rough with the smooth and the rough of gear progression is that it is only temporary.

Miku.6297:

Honestly once you hit 80 and full exotic, what else are you going to do other then work on ascended armor, skins, or a legendary?

Actually play the game?

Staggering thought, I know, but you can decide to not “work” on anything.

Or only IRL (where you might actually achieve something); not in a game.

I don’t want to get into a long debate, here, but re. playing for fun vs playing for rewards:

One would hope that most people play the parts of the game they most enjoy, most of the time, rather than playing the parts they don’t, just because they may give better rewards.

However, even of one is only playing for fun, it is still disappointing (for many people) if you “earn” far less for playing one part of a game than another; simply because you will, inevitably, feel undervalued, as a player, if you know you could earn far more elsewhere.

Conversely, if you end up playing parts of the game you don’t really enjoy, simply because they offer greater rewards, you will almost certainly end up resenting the game; as you’re not having an enjoyable time.

Therefore, I tend to think the best option is to reward different parts of the game similarly and just let people do what they like.

…and if some areas of the game end up not being played, then you will know they’re not much fun for the majority of people and that you should maybe look at why that is, exactly.

As opposed to thinking the answer is to up the rewards from them and end up just filling them, mostly, with resentful, bad tempered, impatient people.