Guild Wars 2

Duke Nukem.6783:

it should be impossible to kick the creator of the party, if the party creator started a party it belongs to THEM, any1 else there is a helping hand, dont like it? start ur own party

i personally have given up on dungeons/ fractals after the “update” that removed instance ending for party owner leaving (not that i think thats the only solution, the instance should continue if the party owner LEAVES OF HIS OWN FREE WILL)

Then party leaders could behave like total psychos, if they wanted, safe in the knowledge that they couldn’t be kicked.

You may say that not many people are like that, so it wouldn’t be much of a risk…

However, if you think of the type of people who, typically, set themselves up as leaders (both IRL and in things like games), the likelihood that they are overly self confident, arrogant, selfish types is far higher than it would be in a random cross section of people, who don’t set themselves up as leaders.

Duke Nukem.6783:

Khisanth.2948:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Short of simply removing the ability to kick people all together, there isn’t really an abuse-free method available.

removing the ability to kick would allow plenty of opportunities to be a jerk without risk. I wouldn’t call that abuse-free.

the instance owner has every right to be a “jerk” its the instance they started, you are free to leave, every mmo with parties has worked that way and its always fine, nobody complains, i dont remember asking for a democratic party system, i dont remember reading it on the back of the gw2 box and saying “boy iv always wanted that in my mmo” i dont, i dont trust the common rabble and my suspicions have been confirmed time and time again

No “every MMO” does not work that way.

The biggest MMO (in the West, anyway) doesn’t, for a start.

Yes, it works like that if you make your own group, privately (either with friends/guildies, or via shouting on Trade chat), but the LFG (LFD/LFR) groups don’t work that way.

…and yes, people complain about horrible group leaders, behaving selfishly (or otherwise badly), in other games; they complain all the time.

As for the rest of it, you are clearly one of the people I’m referring to.

You are the reason group leaders being given more control would be a disaster.

Seera.5916:

At this point, anything that forces the two groups of players to play together will be doomed to fail.

They’ll either argue in chat over what method to use or what skills or traits to use. The experienced fast and smooth run players complain about how the players are slowing them down. The play how I want players will complain about how the players are trying to force them to play another way.

Eventually most everyone is aware of the external LFG site again and dungeon LFG’s move out of the game. Because they’d rather wait than get paired with players who do not share their philosophy.

Except for new players and true casuals. Because there may be times when players want to run with people who have done the dungeon at least one time and not be completely new to the dungeon. Or want to have silly requirements to just have fun on the run.

TBH, you’re probably right, in a lot of cases.

Which is why I think the only answer is to make the game more far more intuitive and well balanced and far less formulaic.

Classes should, obviously, be equally viable.

There will always be differences, of course, but no one should ever have reason to say, to an entire group, as the OP did; “All swap to heavy armour.”.

As it is a) totally wrong that heavy armour classes should have that type of advantage, anyway (especially in a, supposedly, trinity-free game), b) not everyone will even have a heavy armour class to swap to and c) people, invariably, have a lot more fun if they can play on their favourite class.

Weapon types should obviously be equal, too.

No one should be forced to melee, due to a DPS advantage.

If necessary, give non-heavy armour melee roles a little more passive defence/heals, in PVE and/or chuck a bit more boss damage at ranged, if it’s found to be genuinely unfair.

Get rid of stacking for buffs ASAP (make them group-wide), get rid of/change anything else that makes perma-stacking and meleeing better (downed state?).

Make perma-stacking worse than the alternative.

Throw a ton of random aoe into areas where groups typically try to perma-stack.

Make them move, at least a bit.

Stop mobs in dungeons resetting.

If you pull it (which you will), you all have to fight it.

Pay people a little more gold per dungeon, if necessary, to make up for extra time taken.

Get rid of all red herrings – make each traitline (and the future specs) equally viable.

Make trait choices only choices between equally effective and similar things.

So, the choice in each equivalent spot, of each DPS traitline, should affect either DPS, or passive heals, or defence, or whatever (not a potentially random mixture of all 3, where some of those “choices” may be virtually useless).

Work out a similar thing for utilities.

Then it will be far less a case of older players feeling obliged to lecture and mould new players (whether they want to have to do so, or not), or simply avoid them altogether and far less a case of newer players feeling forced to follow very boring set rules and methods (rather than just having fun), or simply avoid dungeons altogether.

Then it will be far more a case of everyone just playing their chosen role to the best of their ability and perhaps just giving/asking for the odd pointer, here and there, if absolutely necessary.

I know some people won’t like this idea, as they have got used to the status quo, but the truth is that the current system is unsustainable.

Not least, because the very future of a game like this relies on most older players at least not minding playing with newer players and vice versa.

When you get to the point (as this game has) where the two groups seem to be largely intent on remaining virtually segregated, if at all possible and the only (unintended) interaction they have is fraught with issues (and group kicks), you have a major problem.

Seera.5916:

You’re still forcing players to do things that they don’t find fun.

And should a system be into place, the experienced players will go back to using external sites to find groups like they did before there was an LFG.

Meaning there is a greatly reduced pool of experienced players in the LFG pool.

The new will still find themselves with a "desperately boring, long, “training” run, where nothing is spontaneous and everything is a chore".

Well, I’m sorry, but if someone finds new players un-fun and an inconvenience, they really shouldn’t be playing an MMO, IMO.

Or should only be playing it with very close friends/guildies and not using LFG.

As I say, I believe I am in a position to say this, as I was a relatively experienced WoW player who happily did dungeons and things like LFR (and Flex) with less experienced players.

I guess I could have refused and made my own groups – but, if anything, I enjoyed the challenge newer players brought, as it forced me to try to play better myself, to overcome any lack of DPS, or whatever.

As I say, it’s not all the grouping system’s fault, in this game – part of the problem is the design of the game itself.

A game like WoW is far more fluid and well designed (sorry, but it really is…), so even though you might need to give very new players a couple of tips, every now and then, it’s never a case of a rigid formula of “Always skip these mobs.”, “Always stack right here, melee only and don’t move at all, all fight, except to dodge into the wall.”, rinse and repeat, or anything like that.

If you’re busy playing a game like WoW, unless you’re a DPS/HPS obsessive, you might not even notice that someone else is fairly new (unless they’re really new to online gaming, in general), as they are probably just about getting by and there are normally not set rules about how to play every step of the dungeon.

Similarly, there are no real set rules (anymore) about which specs and talents to use (unless, perhaps, someone has queued as a healer/tank and is actually specced/geared for DPS).

So, unlike this game, chances are no one feels the need to lecture people endlessly, on everything, throughout a dungeon run, anyway.

This is a gorgeous game, it really is, but in terms of natural, intuitive, fluid, interesting gameplay and fun grouping experiences it fails miserably, especially for newer players.

Seera.5916:

Tigaseye.2047:

tramwajarz.2369:

mtpelion.4562:

When you use LFG, you get no say in who winds up in your party.

I understand that playing at 2AM means you probably don’t have any friends online to help you, but you gambled and lost.

LFG shouldn’t be gamble.

Yes, that is exactly what it is and should be.

TBH, I think it’s extremely unfortunate that it isn’t just an automatic grouping system, as it means that newer players will tend to be excluded.

Or even just singled out as such, if they only join “everyone welcome” type groups and then tend to get lectured on exactly how to play.

So players who wish to have a relatively quick and smooth run but don’t have a huge number of guild mates or friends on have to put up with someone who doesn’t mind taking the time to smell the roses? And neither of the two are in the wrong, both ways are valid ways to play the game. They just happen to be two opposing ways.

What would solve 75% of the problems is if everyone would respect LFG’s.

Players putting in what they want into the LFG. And players reading the LFG before joining. And then if they find they don’t meet the requirements, graciously leaving the party on their own.

What would solve 24% of the problems is if people who used the LFG realized that since it is PUG runs that get formed on the LFG, that you can’t expect every run to go as expected.

You can’t solve all of them as there will always be jerks and trolls.

I, personally, don’t think the LFG system works, at all and whereas it may make life (temporarily) easier for the “pros”, I don’t think your suggestion solves anything for newer players.

As a typical new player, you have two choices: join anything and hope for the best (and probably have a horrible experience and be kicked), or only join “everyone welcome” type groups and stand a very good chance of having a desperately boring, long, “training” run, where nothing is spontaneous and everything is a chore.

Whereas, in a totally random system (where you can’t make any demands/state terms), most players are more prepared to accept what they get.

Yes, there are still some players who are intolerant of “noobs” (i.e. immature idiots), but most people get that it’s a pot luck system, so you get what you get.

This means most groups are a mixture of newer and older players, leading to a more balanced, fun and less formal learning experience for newer players.

I guess I was a relatively experienced(ish) WoW player by the time I left and I normally did PUG runs via the LFD system (rather than making my own groups) and I just accepted that there would be experienced and less experienced players and some runs would be smoother than others.

That is how it should be, IMO.

The more you separate people into “new player” and “pro” groups, the more divided we all become (and stay) and the less likely newer players are to bother to stay playing the game, at all, as it just isn’t fun for them.

I’m only still hanging on by a thread due to WvW…

There are a lot more problems with how fun dungeons, in this game, seem (or don’t seem), to newer players, than just the grouping system, admittedly, but still.

It doesn’t help.

tramwajarz.2369:

mtpelion.4562:

When you use LFG, you get no say in who winds up in your party.

I understand that playing at 2AM means you probably don’t have any friends online to help you, but you gambled and lost.

LFG shouldn’t be gamble.

Yes, that is exactly what it is and should be.

TBH, I think it’s extremely unfortunate that it isn’t just an automatic grouping system, as it means that newer players will tend to be excluded.

Or even just singled out as such, if they only join “everyone welcome” type groups and then tend to get lectured on exactly how to play.

I was in a group like that, when I was still doing a few dungeons and the other 3 newer players were clearly so, utterly, bored and frustrated, as the “pro” group maker lectured continuously and refused to take part unless they followed his orders, exactly, that I think it’s highly likely that they will have just left the game by now.

At one point he was just standing in a corner, for about half an hour, chatting to his guild (probably about how awful the “noobs” were and how patient he must be to tolerate them).

So, your problem is that they’re sheer tights, as opposed to an opaque tight, or legging?

If so, you wouldn’t tend to wear thick, opaque tights, or leggings, with this kind of outfit, as they would look too heavy.

mXz.4512:

Donari.5237:

What are your graphics settings? To me it is very clearly a black fishnet stocking. I can see the crosshatched lines and everything.

Graphic settings are on highest, and I see grey on every pic posted by others as on these forums, and looks exactly how mine look ingame.

/looks more grey than black to me.. or a matte black at most.

Sheer black tights/pantyhose will inevitably tend to look a bit grey, as the skin colour shows through.

Also, they may be off-black, like a slightly brown-black (often called “Barely Black”):

http://www.houseoffraser.co.uk/Pretty+Polly+10+den+nylon+tights/142853513,default,pd.html

Just assumed it was supposed to be tights (pantyhose in US English)?

Not all tights/pantyhose are fishnets, lol!

I assume you mean the leg covering above the thigh length boots?

Another Pirate Captain’s Outfit:

tramwajarz.2369:

so he should be superior to them.

Oh, dear God. ><

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

tramwajarz.2369:

What I can’t understand is when I open an instance and start a party/LFG alone or with 1 friend, I have totally 0 control over my own party. This is lack of common sense during designing process.

I don’t really see how this is any different than say…WoW’s dungeon LFG tool. You have 0 control over the people you end up that way too. At best you know you’ll have a tank, a healer, and 3 dps. (Unless they’ve changed something since I last played, which was some time ago).

If you want complete control over your party, then I would think that you would be building your team with trusted friends and guild members. Not pugging via the LFG.

Quite.

No wonder (almost) everyone ends up going back to a 10 year old game, with too many Orcs, sooner or later…

^ Which is easier is not the point, here.

The point is, that the OP wants to feel as though they can get their dailies by playing more naturally, in areas they would be in anyway; rather than being asked to, artificially, go to certain maps, just to do one daily.

So, more like the dailies work in WvW (and probably, also, PVP).

Olvendred.3027:

WvW players need to do specific things that are not part of every playstyle, nor are they possible on every map, nor are they always likely to happen in a play session.

Late edit, but I would somewhat disagree with this.

It would seem to me, that if you play WvW, in WvW, you will achieve most of the dailies by default.

The most notable exception(s) would probably be the kill the veteran animal one and (possibly…) also the capture the ruins one.

If you’re not getting most of them, by default, it is likely that you are not so much playing WvW, in WvW; but just PVPing there.

…and what you are, certainly, not being expected to do, is to go to a specific map, that you wouldn’t otherwise be in at all (unless you only ever play one WvW map, in one session?), just to do one daily.

CobaltSixty.1542:

Work an hour of overtime.
Buy gems.
Convert to gold.

LOL, quite…

Problem is, it’s far too easy to do that, rather than having to endure the little kittens and goldfarmers in dungeons, but it kind of defeats the purpose of playing a game, at all.

Buy everything with RL money, then sit in DR playing a harp.

IEximius.9204:

10 seconds in the pvp room and you’re crying? most of the time you don’t even need to look anyways

Not everyone PVPs.

Personally, if I didn’t do WvW I doubt I’d bother with them, at all.

You seem to have had a lot of requirements…

“We wanted this, we didn’t feel like doing that, can you bring this instead?” etc..

When you want (random) people to do everything on your terms and for your own convenience, rather than theirs, don’t be too surprised if some people (who can do so) decide to take things into their own hands.

Is it something I would do?

Probably not – I would just avoid the whole situation, personally.

But, once again, I’m not surprised that other people do.

I think people need to to accept that they may not get exactly what they want from a random grouping situation.

Speaking from experience, from other games, you just work with what you get in random groups and if you’re too tired, you should have either started earlier and/or accepted that (if you failed to duo) you might not be able to finish, at all.

No, it’s not.

Another reason to avoid hairstyles with hair accessories, or only use neutral colours for them.

Well, as I have said before, from my perspective, there are things wrong with the game, that limit its true potential and nothing seems to be being done about them.

That, along with things like lag and certain aspects of the game being dominated by less than pleasant players, with boring (if design-related) methods, will inevitably tend to gradually put people off.

Most of us are simply not goldfarmers – we play games to have fun.

It’s a shame, really, as the levelling experience is pretty good and it’s, undoubtedly, a beautiful game.

But, even beautiful gets boring, eventually, if there is no real substance under the surface.

It’s really bad.

I’m getting a consistent 5fps in big groups and on top of that, lag to an extent that I think I’m running straight, but it then turns out I’ve been running into a wall.

Smaller groups are OKish.

Most people would probably still think the fps I’m getting in them are bad, but I can cope; but, in big groups, it’s basically suicide.

To be fair, it was even worse a few weeks ago (2 or 3fps), but still.

“The only 2 mistakes”?

“Apart from that its a perfect game”.

Cute.

Can’t remember when I last felt so utterly positive about anything?

Think I was about 4 and it was probably pink and frilly.

^ Well, yes, I get that there are issues with the design of the game, but that is the devs’ fault, not the players’; so you should take that up with them.

It is your right (and entitlement!), as a paying customer, to expect a game that functions properly and I would be more than happy to support you in that.

Blaming other paying customers, who are just trying to play a (flawed) game as it is presented to them, however, is both pointless and unacceptable.

NeroGuilt.4720:

Word entitled being passed around so much i feel like I’m at a trust fund baby convention. Lol. On a serious note, just don’t kitten with the guild. Is it that complicated? If they don’t want you, that is their choice. You people that troll because you get kitten, just keep being sub par. At no point during my time doing nothing but roam did I feel like screwing up someone’s skill group..why should you? Just more people to add to the “let die” list.

If you don’t like a sport team, do you run onto the field, steal the ball, then kitten midfield?

Nope, not their choice.

They are on public territory, as far as the game is concerned, so they have no jurisdiction to stop people running with/near/on them, whatever.

Your analogy is also ridiculous, of course, as the sports team is probably playing on a private field, with their own ball; not on a public field, with no ball…

It is the people who whispered the OP who come across as “entitled” (which, BTW, is a totally separate meaning of the word, to people’s genuine entitlements in life/a game), as they seem to think they have authority that they really don’t have and are entitled to say what they like to other customers.

As long as they stop behaving like Cartman, when he was made hall monitor and people like you stop trying to defend them, we will all get along a lot better.

Is it really beating a dead…..whatever the hell that is…..if it is about having a option in your hero panel?

Cuddy.6247:

Tigaseye.2047:

…and no, it’s no a tool in life, it’s a tool in a game.

A game – as in, a completely pointless (other than to have pointless fun) leisure activity.

What? I thought I was refining my skills to enchant my coworkers with Aegis if a shooter decides to rob us. Are you telling me this isn’t true?

Yes, I’m very sorry to have to be the one to break it to you…

Ashen, I wouldn’t play a game like this if I didn’t have a reasonable amount of time.

I would consider it totally inconsiderate to try to impose my small amount of free time on other players.

I would just have to leave mid dungeon, or go play a single player game, or play elements of the game where I could leave at any time, if I only had a very small amount of time to spare.

I wouldn’t try to make everyone else fit into my time constraints.

Of course I would care if someone, intentionally, tried to deprive me of something by pressing a button, but that is not the same, at all.

Newer players, or players who want to play in a more interesting (less utterly boring) way aren’t intentionally depriving you of anything.

They are just trying to enjoy the game they (probably mistakenly, as it turns out) bought.

Ashen.2907:

Different people have fun in different ways. Urging people to not have fun in a game they are playing is probably not a good idea.

If someone’s idea of having fun is to exclude other people they deem less worthy, then they shouldn’t play an MMO.

Or, they should only play it in a totally private (i.e. invisible) way, with a group of pre-selected friends (i.e. they shouldn’t list, or join listed, groups).

Otherwise, they risk putting off the next generation of players and that is not OK for the future of gaming.

Of course, once again, the main problem lies with the design of the game.

In other games, you simply cant write what you do and don’t want, in a list for dungeons.

You have to take what you’re given.

Then, you may be able to kick, or (more likely) you may leave, but you can’t just deign to never associate with “noobs” in dungeons; unless you only ever make your own premade groups.

Ashen.2907:

Then why are you the one encouraging selfish behavior?

Because, sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire.

I recommend being a nice person to nice people, only.

Unpleasant people think they can win, in life, due to the fact that “nice” people have no choice but to be nice, all the time.

They are wrong.

TPMN.1483:

Knowing how to play a class properly is exactly like a tool in life – anyone can spam 1 !
(Well some people cant even do that properly – but thats besides the point).

We’re not talking about spamming 1, here.

Or in fact, we are, because that is pretty much the advice you are constantly given by “pros” in dungeons.

Stack in one place, constantly, equip a melee weap and (basically) do little more than spam 1.

…and no, it’s not a tool in life, it’s a tool in a game.

A game – as in, a completely pointless (other than to have pointless fun) leisure activity.

^ If you’re seeing more (1)s than the other two options, that should tell you something about human psychology.

It should tell you that you may be approaching things in the wrong way.

Once again, this is NOT a job, or even a tool in life (like a language).

This is a GAME.

As such, the learning experience is supposed to be the fun part, before the monotony of grinding sets in.

Stop ruining people’s fun and only tell them stuff they really need to know (as in the occasional vital tip, if they fail something a few times), or specifically ask you and you will get a lot more (2)s and (3)s.

Seriously, this isn’t rocket science, guys…

serenke:

Obviously, it can be a good thing if an experienced player knows how to defeat a certain boss, but that is different from a lecture-like training session on exactly how (and where) to skip>stack>melee, choose a class, build it, gear it, choose abilities for it etc..

Of course, many all-new player groups will fail/take a long time to complete an instance, but that is why it is (in theory) often quite good to have a mixture of differently experienced players.

As long as the “pros” don’t try to suck all the fun out of the learning experience, entirely, by dictating all terms, constantly.

As I have said a lot on this forum, most of this is the devs’ fault; not the players’.

As they have (quite possibly, unintentionally) managed to make a game where its very design positively encourages people to play in a very reductionist way.

But, even then, it doesn’t make it OK for the experienced players to insist that all the new players reach that level of boredom, immediately and it certainly doesn’t make it alright for some of them to refuse to associate with “noobs”, at all.

This is an MMO, not a single player (or private group) game, it is supposed to be a social experience.

We are supposed to support other players, whether they are new, or not.

If someone is the kind of person who simply doesn’t have any of that nurturing ability, they shouldn’t be playing a game like this, because they are just a gold farmer (and/or seller) and are of no practical use to anyone else in the community (apart from other gold farmers and/or sellers), or the game.

…and in fact, they are a detriment to the community and the game, as they actively make new players feel unhappy and unwanted (via their words and/or their actions).

I realised all this, in WoW – I never treated new players there badly, kicked them, or criticised their methods.

I let them learn on their own, unless they specifically asked something.

If people can’t do that, I will say again that they should simply not be allowed to play an MMO, as they do far more harm than good and contribute nothing of any worth.

Obviously, I think it’s highly unlikely that anyone will bother to stop them, but still.

^ That’s all very well (and I do get where you’re coming from), but we have left certain people to “just get on with their selfish, evil ways” IRL, as well and look where that has got us.

At some point, you have to stand up and say “No more.”.

…and I know this is “just” a game, but it suffers from the same kind of issues, as happen IRL, sadly.

These kind of people cause issues, like this, wherever they go.

“Bad things happen when good men do nothing.”

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

Cuddy.6247:

Tigaseye.2047:

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

Valky.2574:

Casual game usually = casual community . shocking i know

You would think it would and yet, still, the hardcore types tend to act like they’re in charge and that there is something wrong with being a casual.

When, actually, if this is supposed to be a casual-friendly game, they are the ones who shouldn’t be here, if anyone shouldn’t.

…and I say this as someone who is not, necessarily, that casual.

Certainly in terms of the time I tend to put into a game.

But, I will never, ever, think like these people.

I didn’t in WoW and I won’t here.

Nobody said there’s something wrong with being casual. You can be casual. You can be the majority.
There’s something wrong with joining parties that don’t want you. There’s something wrong with being “casual” and attempting to play with people who aren’t and who don’t want to play with you.

Just like it’s wrong to be “hardcore” and join casual runs and start telling everyone what you think they should do.

People should play with people of a similar mind.
I’d dare say there are less hardcore players joining casual runs and being terrible and annoying than there are casual players joining hardcore runs and ruining the fun for everybody.

No, people can do what they like.

It’s their game, too.

I, personally, wouldn’t, as I don’t need the stress just to endure a criminally boring skip>stack>melee nightmare.

However, if other people want to, they can.

Unfortunately, the game then allows you to kick them, if you want, but they can still join what they like, whenever they like.

In fact, increasingly, having read some of these replies, I would encourage thick skinned people to join groups that exclude them.

This is usually what I imagine happens on the forums most of the time. I’ve played with good players, and not fitting min-maxing criteria doesn’t slow the game down by any considerable amount. I imagine that 9/10 players here who gripe about bad players need to be carried, since it’s apparently so inconvenient to run “normally.”

Quite.

Either that or they’re goldsellers, or otherwise very greedy players, who only care about the gold per minute they can earn.

Certainly, the WoW EU forums appeared to be quite full of those kind of players, so I have no reason to think this would be different.

If you think about it, who would tend to hang around forums and fiercely defend a boring, but lucrative, playstyle?

Who would have most to lose, if it was changed?

“or otherwise very greedy players,” I guess i somewhat fall under this category. I value my game time and want to get the most out of it.
The problem is what you describe to be “boring but lucrative” I consider fun. Why? Because I have fun by getting stuff. By getting rewards. As many rewards as possible and as fast as possible. That’s my fun in this game.

I have fun by doing things fast, efficiently and without problems.
So what you might consider " boring " might actually be someone else’s source of enjoyment in the game.

Also this thread is not about defending a certain play style. I’m not here to defend or say that one play style is better than another.

I’m here defending people’s right to play with whomever and however they want. Something you want as well but only when it suits you and works in your favor.

The phrase you are looking for, to describe yourself, is utterly selfish.

Selfishness should never be encouraged, or rewarded; especially in a group situation (like an MMO).

That is why you should be disrupted.

Ideally that would be by the game devs, realising the issues they have created and dealing with them in a timely fashion; but it would appear that they are in some sort of deep state of denial, lack the ability to deal with it and/or can’t be bothered.

serenke.4806:

Tigaseye.2047:

No, people can do what they like.

It’s their game, too.

I, personally, wouldn’t, as I don’t need the stress just to endure a criminally boring skip>stack>melee nightmare.

However, if other people want to, they can.

Unfortunately, the game then allows you to kick them, if you want, but they can still join what they like, whenever they like.

In fact, increasingly, having read some of these replies, I would encourage thick skinned people to join groups that exclude them.

Previously, I might have said “avoid them”, but at this point, I think it would be more fun if they didn’t.

Possibly, the most fun anyone can currently have in group PVE, in this game, in fact.

So basically the casual “thick skinned” people should join groups that ask for experience in certain dungeons while they know that they have no clue how to do it… just to have some “fun” at the expense of the “evil elitist dungeoneers”?

Yes, that just about sums up my current position.

I’m sick of this “just leave the pros alone to exclude the noobs” attitude.

If you want a game to have a future, you have to let new players join and have fun learning for themselves.

You have to allow for that and if you are, truly, pro (and not just trying to maximise profits) it should be no problem to do so.

If you don’t, or if you insist on trying to force them into a boring, pre-set mould, a lot will just give up and leave and the game will (eventually) die.

Previously, my position was to just leave selfish people to do what they liked, but at this point I am sick to death of the attitude that kind of acceptance has bred, so I would encourage the disruption of it.

People clearly need a little shaking up, in this game – both the devs and some of the players.

Some of you are way too smug and comfortable.

TPMN.1483:

You don’t take a car apart to repair it without reading a manual first or at least a manual to rebuild it. You could end up with a very expensive mess otherwise and never able to put it back together again. In other words searching external help is a good thing to help you accomplish your task. It is not a failure of the game if there are not enough hints in game.

It’s not taking a car apart to repair it, though, is it?

Taking a car apart to repair it is a menial, probably unenjoyable, but necessary, job.

Whereas, playing a game is supposed to be a fun and unnecessary leisure activity, which you are supposed to be able to learn through the process of experimenting.

So, yours is a totally faulty analogy.

4) dungeons are not stack n wack for speed clearing and require a lot of co-ordinated effort (unlike some posters here would love to believe). If you would like to continue a discussion on this – post a new thread in the dungeon sub-forum and how/why you think it is stack and wack. (Warning: be prepared to be enlightened).

Posters believe that, not because they “love to”, but because they are constantly being told so, by supposedly experienced players, who take it upon themselves to form “everyone welcome” dungeon groups.

They may, also, have experienced a speedrun, or two and have experienced that style of gameplay there, too.

Just in case they were left in any doubt.

Cuddy.6247:

Tigaseye.2047:

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

Valky.2574:

Casual game usually = casual community . shocking i know

You would think it would and yet, still, the hardcore types tend to act like they’re in charge and that there is something wrong with being a casual.

When, actually, if this is supposed to be a casual-friendly game, they are the ones who shouldn’t be here, if anyone shouldn’t.

…and I say this as someone who is not, necessarily, that casual.

Certainly in terms of the time I tend to put into a game.

But, I will never, ever, think like these people.

I didn’t in WoW and I won’t here.

Nobody said there’s something wrong with being casual. You can be casual. You can be the majority.
There’s something wrong with joining parties that don’t want you. There’s something wrong with being “casual” and attempting to play with people who aren’t and who don’t want to play with you.

Just like it’s wrong to be “hardcore” and join casual runs and start telling everyone what you think they should do.

People should play with people of a similar mind.
I’d dare say there are less hardcore players joining casual runs and being terrible and annoying than there are casual players joining hardcore runs and ruining the fun for everybody.

No, people can do what they like.

It’s their game, too.

I, personally, wouldn’t, as I don’t need the stress just to endure a criminally boring skip>stack>melee nightmare.

However, if other people want to, they can.

Unfortunately, the game then allows you to kick them, if you want, but they can still join what they like, whenever they like.

In fact, increasingly, having read some of these replies, I would encourage thick skinned people to join groups that exclude them.

This is usually what I imagine happens on the forums most of the time. I’ve played with good players, and not fitting min-maxing criteria doesn’t slow the game down by any considerable amount. I imagine that 9/10 players here who gripe about bad players need to be carried, since it’s apparently so inconvenient to run “normally.”

Quite.

Either that or they’re goldsellers, or otherwise very greedy players, who only care about the gold per minute they can earn.

Certainly, the WoW EU forums appeared to be quite full of those kind of players, so I have no reason to think this would be different.

If you think about it, who would tend to hang around forums and fiercely defend a boring, but lucrative, playstyle?

Who would have most to lose, if it was changed?

Harper.4173:

Tigaseye.2047:

Valky.2574:

Casual game usually = casual community . shocking i know

You would think it would and yet, still, the hardcore types tend to act like they’re in charge and that there is something wrong with being a casual.

When, actually, if this is supposed to be a casual-friendly game, they are the ones who shouldn’t be here, if anyone shouldn’t.

…and I say this as someone who is not, necessarily, that casual.

Certainly in terms of the time I tend to put into a game.

But, I will never, ever, think like these people.

I didn’t in WoW and I won’t here.

Nobody said there’s something wrong with being casual. You can be casual. You can be the majority.
There’s something wrong with joining parties that don’t want you. There’s something wrong with being “casual” and attempting to play with people who aren’t and who don’t want to play with you.

Just like it’s wrong to be “hardcore” and join casual runs and start telling everyone what you think they should do.

People should play with people of a similar mind.
I’d dare say there are less hardcore players joining casual runs and being terrible and annoying than there are casual players joining hardcore runs and ruining the fun for everybody.

No, people can do what they like.

It’s their game, too.

I, personally, wouldn’t, as I don’t need the stress just to endure a criminally boring skip>stack>melee nightmare.

However, if other people want to, they can.

Unfortunately, the game then allows you to kick them, if you want, but they can still join what they like, whenever they like.

In fact, increasingly, having read some of these replies, I would encourage thick skinned people to join groups that exclude them.

Previously, I might have said “avoid them”, but at this point, I think it would be more fun if they didn’t.

Possibly, the most fun anyone can currently have in group PVE, in this game, in fact.

Yeah, I haven’t bothered with it.

Pretty sure crafting won’t be much fun, as it appears to be another “Find a guide online and then follow it religiously.” situation.

At this point, I prefer to just sell my mats and buy a few dyes and stuff with the proceeds.

So, at least I’m having some fun with customisation, rather than resenting the game for making me spend every copper I make (and more) on mats.

I did the same thing in WoW – didn’t have profs for the first 6 months, or so.

If, at some point, I find myself accruing gold with nothing much to buy with it, anymore, then I might bother.

But, until then, no.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

due to stupidities in running, which they never did. they wanted to fight everything.

Yeah, I’m never going to come to terms with the idea that it is “stupid” to want to fight everything on one’s path through a dungeon.

I get that that is the way it is in this game, but I totally disagree that it should be.

If you think, for one nanosecond, that real life enemies would just forget you skipped them, like a bunch of “nice castle” goldfish, you would obviously be very much mistaken.

…and yes, I get that a game isn’t real life, but in terms of maintaining some kind of sense of immersion, of course you should have to fight everything you pass close by.

Before anyone gets upset with me, again: once again I will say that I am just not bothering with group PVE in this game.

So, I’m not “leeching”, or whatever else you want to accuse me of.

I just think group PVE design is woefully lacking, in so many respects, it’s almost unbelievable.

Valky.2574:

Casual game usually = casual community . shocking i know

You would think it would and yet, still, the hardcore types tend to act like they’re in charge and that there is something wrong with being a casual.

When, actually, if this is supposed to be a casual-friendly game, they are the ones who shouldn’t be here, if anyone shouldn’t.

…and I say this as someone who is not, necessarily, that casual.

Certainly in terms of the time I tend to put into a game.

But, I will never, ever, think like these people.

I didn’t in WoW and I won’t here.

Conncept.7638:

It uninstalled itself?

On february 18th 2013, Guild Wars 2 becomes self aware…

Yeah, or his computer did.

A discerning computer would be an interesting concept.

Gear not being the main focus of the game is one of the things that GW2 has got right, as opposed to a game like WoW, IMO.

Credit where credit is due…

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Tigaseye.2047:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Tigaseye.2047:

RoseofGilead.8907:

Tigaseye.2047:

I didn’t even select he lead role in WoW dungeons, even though I had been playing for years.

So, of course I don’t want to make my own groups in a game I’ve only been playing a few months.

I feel like, when you select a lead role, you should really know everything there is to know about that dungeon and ideally, the game as a whole.

Otherwise, you’re misleading people.

There is no party leader system in GW2. Someone starting a dungeon group does not make them the leader of the group. You’re putting pressure on yourself that no one else would put on you.

If you’re that concerned about it, you could always make a lfg post saying “COF 1, still pretty new to this” or some other thing to let them know you don’t know what you’re doing.

Yeah and you know who you would get joining then?

A bunch of people who would then lecture me/us on which class(es) to use (or not use), how to gear, how to build, how to speedrun…

Just like you do, most of the time, if you join an “everyone welcome” group.

No thank you – I’ll just pass.

You are probably right that I put too much pressure on myself, but I still don’t feel like making my own groups.

It’s just not what I play games for.

So you’re a leech.

Try, “LFG Path X, leeches only.”

Firstly, how can I be a “leech” when I don’t even run that content?

I tried a few times, decided it wasn’t for me and didn’t bother anymore.

Secondly, if we’re supposed to be able to play how we like, despite the game design favouring certain methods, how would it be “leeching” for someone to do that, anyway?

Either the game design is dictating very narrow terms, in which case that is terrible design; or, it isn’t, in which case we are all free to do exactly what we like.

You can’t have it both ways, so which is it?

You won’t make your own LFG because you’re afraid others will give you advice about how to play better.

So the only way you’d play the content is if you could join others and play your inefficient build.

Sounds like the mindset of a leech.

But, granted, you are just refusing to play the content all together, so I take it back.

Apologies.

I notice you didn’t answer my question.

So, which is it?

Fine, I’m being paranoid.

Pretty sure I explained how my reactions are from actual things that happened to me, but whatever.

As I say, I have no desire to make my own groups, anyway.

Having to list a bunch of criteria, every time, sounds like a major PITA, frankly.

I’ll stick to WvW, until I’m bored, at which point I guess I’ll move on.

I’m not being grumpy, I’m not yelling and I’m not a man.

I made a perfectly reasonable first post in this thread, which expressed exactly how I feel.

I suggest you go and read it before wrongly accusing me of things.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Tigaseye.2047:

RoseofGilead.8907:

Tigaseye.2047:

I didn’t even select he lead role in WoW dungeons, even though I had been playing for years.

So, of course I don’t want to make my own groups in a game I’ve only been playing a few months.

I feel like, when you select a lead role, you should really know everything there is to know about that dungeon and ideally, the game as a whole.

Otherwise, you’re misleading people.

There is no party leader system in GW2. Someone starting a dungeon group does not make them the leader of the group. You’re putting pressure on yourself that no one else would put on you.

If you’re that concerned about it, you could always make a lfg post saying “COF 1, still pretty new to this” or some other thing to let them know you don’t know what you’re doing.

Yeah and you know who you would get joining then?

A bunch of people who would then lecture me/us on which class(es) to use (or not use), how to gear, how to build, how to speedrun…

Just like you do, most of the time, if you join an “everyone welcome” group.

No thank you – I’ll just pass.

You are probably right that I put too much pressure on myself, but I still don’t feel like making my own groups.

It’s just not what I play games for.

So you’re a leech.

Try, “LFG Path X, leeches only.”

Firstly, how can I be a “leech” when I don’t even run that content?

I tried a few times, decided it wasn’t for me and didn’t bother anymore.

Secondly, if we’re supposed to be able to play how we like, despite the game design favouring certain methods, how would it be “leeching” for someone to do that, anyway?

Either the game design is dictating very narrow terms, in which case that is terrible design; or, it isn’t, in which case we are all free to do exactly what we like.

You can’t have it both ways, so which is it?

Mirta.5029:

Tigaseye.2047:

Yeah and you know who you would get joining then?

A bunch of people who would then lecture me/us on which class(es) to use (or not use), how to gear, how to build, how to speedrun…

Just like you do, most of the time, if you join an “everyone welcome” group.

No thank you – I’ll just pass.

You are probably right that I put too much pressure on myself, but I still don’t feel like making my own groups.

It’s just not what I play games for.

who would lecture you exactly? Why are you being paranoid without even trying? We’re telling you that it’s okay and here you are completely refusing to partake in content which is not a fault of absolutely anyone, just your own fears.

I’m not being paranoid.

I’m not plucking this out of thin air…

This is from firsthand experience of “everyone welcome” type groups in this game.

Normally, they are led by someone who then spends the entire dungeon telling everyone to skip>stack>melee in preset places, refuses to join-in unless everyone does and lecturing people on their what their class/gear/builds should be.

It’s not exactly a leap to imagine that, if I said I was “still new”, or something, that that is the type of player who would join, to “help” everyone.

Which would be OK, except I have no interest in learning how to play in that skip>stack>melee way, as I have no use for it, as it doesn’t interest me as a way of playing a game.

Whether it is the most efficient way, or not.

I only run content, in any game, if it’s fun.

I never do stuff I don’t enjoy, however profitable it might be.

End of story.

RoseofGilead.8907:

Tigaseye.2047:

I didn’t even select he lead role in WoW dungeons, even though I had been playing for years.

So, of course I don’t want to make my own groups in a game I’ve only been playing a few months.

I feel like, when you select a lead role, you should really know everything there is to know about that dungeon and ideally, the game as a whole.

Otherwise, you’re misleading people.

There is no party leader system in GW2. Someone starting a dungeon group does not make them the leader of the group. You’re putting pressure on yourself that no one else would put on you.

If you’re that concerned about it, you could always make a lfg post saying “COF 1, still pretty new to this” or some other thing to let them know you don’t know what you’re doing.

Yeah and you know who you would get joining then?

A bunch of people who would then lecture me/us on which class(es) to use (or not use), how to gear, how to build, how to speedrun…

Just like you do, most of the time, if you join an “everyone welcome” group.

No thank you – I’ll just pass.

You are probably right that I put too much pressure on myself, but I still don’t feel like making my own groups.

It’s just not what I play games for.

^ Well, you two clearly like the situation.

I (and many others, from the look of this thread) don’t.

I tried to tolerate the dungeon grouping system, in this game, which I view as fairly primitive anyway.

But, I draw the line at playing in a really boring way, with weapons I don’t want to use on ranger, paying, or making my own groups.

I didn’t even select the lead role in WoW dungeons, even though I had been playing for years.

So, of course I don’t want to make my own groups in a game I’ve only been playing a few months.

I feel like, when you select a lead role, you should really know everything there is to know about that dungeon and ideally, the game as a whole.

Otherwise, you’re misleading people.

I don’t want to be in a situation where someone looks to me for guidance and I don’t know the answer.

Plus, I play games to relax – not to lead people around.

Baldrick – as I have said many times, already, on this forum, I have certain issues with the current xpac of WoW.

So, I don’t “love it so much”.

But, I am still able to see where it is better.

maha.7902:

well selling dungeons is what kills the game at 80 for many ppl, lvl up, gear up in zerk exo, and do dailys / quit, because there are no explo other than sellers.

how does it kill the game? you literally boot up the lfg, make a group and do a dungeon. selling doesn’t disrupt that in any way, groups fill up quickly all the time.

id take it as high risk high reward, this time u lost, deal with it

let’s change the OP’s post to “I was trying to do a story mode dungeon and was kicked by griefers”. Would you tell them now to deal with it, or is your gripe with selling in particular?

Not a game where a few people have (admittedly, due to ANet’s design failings) reduced group PVE to a speedrun borefest and/or goldmaking enterprise.

you realise that is literally every single MMO ever?

No, because it’s not.

WoW, for example, suffers badly from (gradual) outgearing.

Other than that, it’s pretty much impossible to cheese, as they have made sure that classes, specs and talents are all relatively balanced, buffs are group-wide, ranged weaps are equally viable as melee ones and the mechanics in dungeons are well designed.

A few guilds will charge gold for boosts in “real” raids, which I don’t approve of, but at least no one is charging for dungeons, or LFR and/or making narrow rules and excluding people from them.

They are just a case of queuing and then playing normally (especially if you’re DPS – obviously, as a healer/tank you have to learn your specific role).

Not a case of (9/10 times) being expected to play in a completely artificial, formulaic, boring way, which is generally the case in group PVE in this game and/or being charged for the privilege of clearing an old dungeon.

…and of course the other poster’s problem (“gripe”) was with the selling – I would have thought that was patently obvious?

Jahroots.6791:

Diva.4706:

Harper.4173:

If you can’t bother to watch a 10 minute guide on the dungeon run you’re about do to – I can’t bother to carry you through it.

This is my point, they may not even know a guide even exist. Giving a new player tips on game features and/or directing them to helpful sites/videos, is what builds community. Simply yelling “Noob”, isn’t.

His assertion is completely ridiculous, though. It’s great that we have the option to do that, but no one should ever feel like they need to do ‘homework’ before playing a video game.

My feelings exactly.

Having to do that completely kills a game for many people.

In fact, I would say that the type of people who enjoy doing homework and then painting by numbers are really quite unusual and very much in the minority of (potential) gamers.

Not only that, but a lot of people view it as cheating to look stuff up in advance, pure and simple.

So, it’s particularly ironic that we have now reached a situation where some people view not doing that as a failing.

Harper.4173:

Just because the game is designed to be casual friendly doesn’t mean the veteran players have to be casual friendly. Being friendly and nice towards a group of players is a choice.

Some people choose to be friendly and help casuals. I usually just avoid them every chance I get.

Players that expect the game to give them all the info they need to play are perfectly fine – but they shouldn’t expect people who take their performance and execution seriously to give them the time of day.

If you can’t bother to watch a 10 minute guide on the dungeon run you’re about do to – I can’t bother to carry you through it.

Players need to realize that the path to self-improvement comes from within.

This forum really needs a -1 button…

Mirta.5029:

the point to selling paths is that they’re soloed or duoed. You don’t need much people for this. Nor much time. Just skill. That’s why “solo Arah” videos exist on youtube.

How does that change anything I said?

Yeah, I guess, if you’re soloing them, that may mean you don’t have friends helping you, so that removes one advantage I alluded to.

Other than that (and certainly in the case of the OP, who is not soloing in this case), it makes no difference.

It’s still trying to take advantage of people for gold, in a game where gold=RL money.

maha.7902:

Nanashi.6297:

Mirta.5029:

Anet itself already said that it’s okay to sell paths. It’s not an abuse of LFGs in any way shape or form. I respect people like OP and wish that I was good enough to solo dungeons.

They said it’s not against the rules but by no means they support doing it.

It’s tolerated and that’s all there is to it.

To the topic I can just say what people said before. Write a ticket to the support if you really care that much about one group of people doing that. But don’t expect to actually get help. As I mentioned before Arenanet is not supporting it. You can be happy that they let this still be a thing at all.

They don’t support selling but they don’t support griefing.

The fact that people are saying “get over it” after someone has just posted about being griefed says a lot about this “community”.

Yeah, I think it says that most of us (who are not goldsellers) would prefer a game where people played together, equally, for fun.

Not a game where a few people have (admittedly, due to ANet’s design failings) reduced group PVE to a speedrun borefest and/or goldmaking enterprise.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I don’t get the impression Angry Joe stays long in any game. What he does is play and review new games as they come out and probably any expansions they have. Unless he has a lot of free time, whatever game he is currently playing in order to review is going to be the one he is going to main. This game has it’s good points and it’s bad points, like any game and he reviewed and pointed out what he thought those were. Then he left for the next game, just as he will leave the game he is currently playing to play and review another.

He is a reviewer. He plays, reviews, leaves. It’s kind of silly imo to say, well he hasn’t played in X amount of time so therefore (insert opinion Y).

He said he left after a year.

Obviously, he won’t have been playing GW2 solidly (or anywhere near solidly) for that year, as he will have been playing/trying other games, to do reviews on them.

However, it would appear that this isn’t a game he only played for the most minimal amount of time required to review it.

Especially as people have said that he did further reviews, after the initial one, mentioning known problems with the game.

I don’t like the practice of selling paths, personally.

Not everyone starts playing games at the same time, or has RL friends to help them play.

So, selling access to content is, essentially, using the advantages you happen to have and that they don’t, to deprive them of gold/RL money.

That doesn’t sit well with me…

I wouldn’t do what these people did to you, but I can’t say I’m surprised that some people do.

Just do what you like.

It’s your game, too and the great thing about something like WvW is that you really are free to go where you like, when you like, on whichever class you like (even if they may be, technically, correct that some are far worse then others) and with whichever build you like (ditto).

Whatever other people may say…

If they don’t want to be followed, they shouldn’t tag up.

If ANet agree that it is vital that they be allowed to run alone, maybe they could produce a special tag that can only be seen by guild members?

But, until then, just do what you like.

Dawdler.8521:

Of course they have a right to ask you to leave them.

I would say they don’t have the right, as they don’t have any authority to do so.

Having the right to do something isn’t just about having the ability to do so; it’s about having a moral and/or otherwise highly justifiable reason and/or authority.

In this case, they don’t have any of that.

They’re the ones who have decided to go into a public (as far as the game is concerned) area, full of other individuals and groups.

As such, they are not justified (morally, or otherwise), or authorised, to tell people to not run with them; as that area, or objective, is as much open to others as it is to them.

Obviously, they literally have the physical ability to tell people to not run with them (as in, there is nothing in place to stop them), but then people literally have the physical ability to try to tell other people to do all kinds of totally unreasonable stuff, all the time.

Doesn’t mean they have a moral, or legal, or even game T&Cs (or whatever) based right, or authority.