Guild Wars 2

Some of the dye prices are ridiculous, there is no question about it.

Should never be allowed to get to a situation where a single dye becomes unavailable and then costs 100s (if not 1000s) of gold.

I don’t mind some dyes being more expensive, but I think there needs to be some sort of cap on it.

Quite honestly, it would be better to just be able to buy them direct from the gemstore for a set price.

Then, if they were also available to players, in other ways, they could still sell them on the TP; but not for such ridiculous prices.

I feel the same way about weapon skins.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Tigaseye.2047:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Tigaseye.2047:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Tigaseye.2047:

OK, so here is a suggestion:

We have heard that outfits can’t, automatically, be made into armour skins, as the different armour weights have different rules regarding where they begin and end etc..

So, maybe the answer is to continue to allow people of all armour weights to wear all the outfits, but classify them as either light, medium, or heavy armour?

Then, you could allow chars of that armour type only to mix and match the pieces.

So, for example, in the case of Balthazar: light and medium armour-weight classes would still be allowed to wear it as an entire outfit (and hide certain parts of it), but only heavy armour classes could mix the shoulders (for example) with their other heavy armour pieces.

Not sure if there would be anything preventing that, but assuming most of the outfits have been designed on the premise that they are either heavy, medium, or light armour (and follow those gear design “rules”), wouldn’t that be a pretty practical and fair compromise?

They did say that the outfits could be considered as a fourth armor weight so I doubt they have a way to make one set “know” it’s light armor and another set “know” it’s heavy so that only those professions could hide parts of it.

If they could set it so that parts of it can hide and let the regular armor show through for all armor weights, that might be an option that would satisfy a lot of people.

Oh, OK.

I like your idea in theory.

However, surely, if outfits are not currently designed as any existing armour weight class, that would also mean that allowing existing armour to show, in some slots, could cause the same (potential) problems as mixing parts of the outfit with other pieces?

No doubt there would be lots of clipping, if that’s what you are asking. But if the clipping bothers people they could toggle the outfit part back on.

Well, yeah, I tend to agree.

But, then I tend to think that, anyway, with allowing people to use parts of the outfits as skins.

They could just say something like “…the composite parts of this outfit can also be used as armour skins (please note: clipping may occur in some cases).”.

But, I guess that would still incur a little more work, as they would have to break them up to allow them to be used as skins?

I wasn’t thinking of using them as armor skins. More like, turning the outfit’s headpiece off lets the regular helm show through. Same as for the gloves. It would mean more toggles on other armor pieces and rewriting it so toggling outfit sections off lets armor pieces show instead but this might satisfy a lot of people’s objections to outfits.

Of course there would be massive, unavoidable clipping. /shrug.

Yeah, I agree with you that that would be good.

Although, say your idea was implemented and you only wanted to use the boots (or gloves, or pants, or whatever) from an outfit.

So, you toggled the rest of the outfit off (and the rest of your regular armour on), to only allow the boots from the outfit to show.

Wouldn’t that, effectively, be allowing the boots to be used as a skin anyway?

…and wouldn’t that, potentially, cause exactly the same kind of issues?

Obviously, it would mean that it would be transmutation charge-free, so that would be a plus for the player, but still.

I still agree with you, but I think that would probably be ANet’s reaction?

Awww… cute.

Thank you and you.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Tigaseye.2047:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Tigaseye.2047:

OK, so here is a suggestion:

We have heard that outfits can’t, automatically, be made into armour skins, as the different armour weights have different rules regarding where they begin and end etc..

So, maybe the answer is to continue to allow people of all armour weights to wear all the outfits, but classify them as either light, medium, or heavy armour?

Then, you could allow chars of that armour type only to mix and match the pieces.

So, for example, in the case of Balthazar: light and medium armour-weight classes would still be allowed to wear it as an entire outfit (and hide certain parts of it), but only heavy armour classes could mix the shoulders (for example) with their other heavy armour pieces.

Not sure if there would be anything preventing that, but assuming most of the outfits have been designed on the premise that they are either heavy, medium, or light armour (and follow those gear design “rules”), wouldn’t that be a pretty practical and fair compromise?

They did say that the outfits could be considered as a fourth armor weight so I doubt they have a way to make one set “know” it’s light armor and another set “know” it’s heavy so that only those professions could hide parts of it.

If they could set it so that parts of it can hide and let the regular armor show through for all armor weights, that might be an option that would satisfy a lot of people.

Oh, OK.

I like your idea in theory.

However, surely, if outfits are not currently designed as any existing armour weight class, that would also mean that allowing existing armour to show, in some slots, could cause the same (potential) problems as mixing parts of the outfit with other pieces?

No doubt there would be lots of clipping, if that’s what you are asking. But if the clipping bothers people they could toggle the outfit part back on.

Well, yeah, I tend to agree.

But, then I tend to think that, anyway, with allowing people to use parts of the outfits as skins.

They could just say something like “…the composite parts of this outfit can also be used as armour skins (please note: clipping may occur in some cases).”.

But, I guess that would still incur a little more work, as they would have to break them up to allow them to be used as skins?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Tigaseye.2047:

OK, so here is a suggestion:

We have heard that outfits can’t, automatically, be made into armour skins, as the different armour weights have different rules regarding where they begin and end etc..

So, maybe the answer is to continue to allow people of all armour weights to wear all the outfits, but classify them as either light, medium, or heavy armour?

Then, you could allow chars of that armour type only to mix and match the pieces.

So, for example, in the case of Balthazar: light and medium armour-weight classes would still be allowed to wear it as an entire outfit (and hide certain parts of it), but only heavy armour classes could mix the shoulders (for example) with their other heavy armour pieces.

Not sure if there would be anything preventing that, but assuming most of the outfits have been designed on the premise that they are either heavy, medium, or light armour (and follow those gear design “rules”), wouldn’t that be a pretty practical and fair compromise?

They did say that the outfits could be considered as a fourth armor weight so I doubt they have a way to make one set “know” it’s light armor and another set “know” it’s heavy so that only those professions could hide parts of it.

If they could set it so that parts of it can hide and let the regular armor show through for all armor weights, that might be an option that would satisfy a lot of people.

Oh, OK.

I like your idea in theory.

However, surely, if outfits are not currently designed as any existing armour weight class, that would also mean that allowing existing armour to show, in some slots, could cause the same (potential) problems as mixing parts of the outfit with other pieces?

phys.7689:

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Even if Anet had abandoned making armor sets (which, from all evidence that has been presented, shows that they have not) they would have quite a -long- way to go before outfits were anywhere even remotely close to overwhelming armors.

Disregarding all armor sets made before outfits came out, just to prove a point, doesn’t help prove the point.
It just makes the complainers seem petty. :p

Its not about proving a point, its very simple common idea. People dont want old armors, they already bought them if they wanted them, 1 year ago when they were released.
Anet used to release armors fairly often, since outfits came to existence they do not. Its not a side point, ITS THE MAIN POINT.
this topic isnt about how many armors there are compared to how many outfits there are.
This topic is about the fact that they have barely released any armors since they introduced outfits, and many people want the same ability to mix and match cosmetics that they used to have with the old setup.

basically people are complaining that customization options for new cosmetics have drastically been reduced since outfits came into existence.

notice, the topic is stop creating outfits, not more outfits than armors.

Yeah, because everyone started playing at launch, right?

Seriously, stop projecting your own situation onto everyone else.

We get that you lot want skins, not outfits, as they suit your needs and your time spent in the game more.

But, for the love of god, stop assuming everyone else is the same.

This assumption that a lot of people seem to have, that everyone has been playing for years (and that they are just unbelievably bad!) is like a disease that runs through all MMOs, rotting them to the very core.

Half the players seem to think like that and the other half spend their entire lives calling everyone “noobs”.

What with that and the often amateurish and/or highly unbalanced fundamental gameplay design, it’s amazing most of these games succeed at all, quite frankly.

…and yet, here we all are arguing about outfits. ><

OK, so here is a suggestion:

We have heard that outfits can’t, automatically, be made into armour skins, as the different armour weights have different rules regarding where they begin and end etc..

So, maybe the answer is to continue to allow people of all armour weights to wear all the outfits, but classify them as either light, medium, or heavy armour?

Then, you could allow chars of that armour type only to mix and match the pieces.

So, for example, in the case of Balthazar: light and medium armour-weight classes would still be allowed to wear it as an entire outfit (and hide certain parts of it), but only heavy armour classes could mix the shoulders (for example) with their other heavy armour pieces.

Not sure if there would be anything preventing that, but assuming most of the outfits have been designed on the premise that they are either heavy, medium, or light armour (and follow those gear design “rules”), wouldn’t that be a pretty practical and fair compromise?

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Rely on iron, Not False Gods!

Charr wearinf balthazars outfit is rediculous, Why do the armors linkedto human gods be used for all classes? It clashes with lore….

Also MORE armors. even if you’d start with the “lost PVP armors” we would have something…. the outfits are a cheap lorebraking substitute to actual content

The outfits are also breaking the identification of classes now. Problems will start arising when you can no longer determine light from heavy classes or when all people are wearing same outfits…. which is potentially gamebreaking.

SO no outfits in PVP/WVW.

Or a -better option- to disable them everywhere, not for a standard armor but the owner’s original armor, with dyes preferably. So I can see what I’m fighting, or running with. So I can make my guess about the capabilities of friend and foe…

Dress up is nice, but not to a point it can be abused either by not showing me what you are or not showing me what you can do….

That is the main reason why I prefer armors. I have a very powerfull rig and I’m not amused by the “standard-armors”… making everybody wear the same outfit but now based on class….

I disagree.

You just want to know who you can safely faceroll and who to avoid, because it might be more of a risk to fight them than you want to take on.

…and what does your “powerfull [sic] rig” have to do with anything, anyway? :/

Brother Grimm.5176:

While I will NEVER spend hard earned gold (nor RL $) on an outfit, I can’t blame Anet for making a quick buck on dolly dress up lemmings, either….

Yeah, because it’s sooooo much more sensible and less lemming-like to buy an armour set and then spend transmutation charges on every single piece of armour (after the initial freebie ones), is it not*?

Don’t get me wrong, I like armour sets, too and the ability to mix and match (especially at max level), but outfits are actually far more cost effective for the player, as well as ANet, especially while levelling.

Not to mention that any armour class can wear any outfit, so while they are obviously inflexible in terms of mixing and matching, they are far more flexible in that way.

Really, you should judge every outfit on its own merits and not care whether it’s new, or other people are wearing it, or not.

Obviously, if you don’t like the look of parts of it (which can’t be hidden) that is an issue, but if you like all of it, then why not wear it?

It’s not like anything in this game is a secret, anyway.

IRL, you might buy something and no one who sees you knows where you got it and even if other people ask and you tell them, it may have already sold-out, or be unattainable for them for other reasons (e.g. designer – so too expensive, or an effectively unique vintage/thrift store/eBay find item, or whatever).

But, in this game, most things are still available (which is as it should be), so people will have access to them.

So, being overly precious about your own style is a bit pointless, as if you wear something that looks OK, people will tend to ask you about it (or just find it on their own) and before you know it, more people are running around in the same stuff, anyway.

*Can’t believe I can’t say that in a more normal way, due to the language filter.

pdavis.8031:

Reagrdless of what percentage of getting kicked for watching the cutscene, one thing that that person said was correct. Watching cut scenes without letting the party know does result in a chance to get kicked. It’s just polite to do so. Some players don’t care, others make a big deal about it. If you are running the dungeon the first time, at the very least you should put that in the LFG, or let the party know this is your first time, and ask if its ok if you watch the cutscenes.

There are many people who don’t mind taking a noob. These groups fill up FAST on the LFG thats why you don’t see many of them, unless you are watching it. I myself prefer noobs over those who consider themselves experts. The few things that bother me about having noobs are that they don’t let the party know that it’s their first time, the don’t ask to watch the scenes (again I don’t mind, but it’s nice to do thats what they are doing), and don’t listen to whats going on in chat.

If you are a noob. LET YOUR TEAMMATES KNOW!!
watch chat, pay attention, and ask if you don’t know what to do.
Do these things, and you’ll have a much better time in dungeons.

Oh, come on…

You have to ask permission to watch the cutscenes?

No, the answer is to not join anything that mentions “zerker”, or “speedrun” ever.

Other than that, your only other potential issues will be long lectures on how to build, what to wear, where to skip, where to stack, which (melee – forget ranged) weaps to use etc..

Doesn’t sound like too much fun, does it?

Actually, maybe the answer is just to not do GW2 dungeons, at all.

He means he will vote to kick people 90% of the time for doing that…

Like a lot of people, he’s projecting his own feelings onto everyone else.

For example: “I know I secretly hate gerbils, so I’m going to say everyone hates gerbils.”

(I don’t hate gerbils, secretly or otherwise, BTW)

I thought you meant they were losing money, overall, from your title. xD

Yeah, it’s a really nice armour – I agree they should have more available at the same time.

There again, I’m not someone who is impressed by “exclusivity”, or something being newly released; I either like something, or I don’t.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

And people being kittenbags is not a game’s problem by the way.

Oh, trust me, it is.

It really, really, is.

Other games – good games – top games – view it as their responsibility to:

a) Try their best to foresee any potential exploitability, within their fundamental game design, mob design and boss design, before releasing it.

b) Tackle any exploitation that does occur, as soon as possible, if they fail to do a) properly.

Some of you really do need to put your hands in your pockets and at least try a game like WoW, before commenting.

They don’t catch absolutely everything, but they do make an effort to catch as many major, game-breaking, things as they can and they succeed at that.

WoW has a lot of flaws, at the moment (IMO – some other people still love it), but fundamental game, class and encounter design and exploitability is not one of them.

So, it really doesn’t have to be that way.

Fade.1743:

The only way to remove stacking is to make boon-sharing and blast fields have a longer range and range damage being closer to melee damage. HOWEVER, this creates a problem that other MMOs have. It’s pointless to be melee then.

No.

Plenty of people still play melee in other games, even though they don’t do more overall damage by doing so.

They are given slightly more viable defences than ranged are to do so (while ranged are given more ways to stay at range) and/or more ways to evade incoming damage (while still damaging) and/or the incoming damage is more evenly spread between ranged and melee DPS to begin with.

In games like WoW, where this is the case, plenty of people still play melee and things like Warriors and DKs are still extremely overpowered in PVP, compared with ranged classes (whatever a few of them may try to claim to the contrary…).

Not that that is a good thing, at all, but it proves that all DPS classes/specs having equal damage in PVE (regardless of range) doesn’t have to mean ranged being overpowered in PVP.

Couldn’t agree more.

Linken.6345:

Tigaseye.2047:

Vague Memory.2817:

If the new lengendarys are like most of the old ones, I’m still not interested in them: a disco ball on a stick, a party gun, a bow that shoots unicorns etc. Most of this are joke shop items at best more suited to April 1st.

Yeah, they’re cute (almost sickeningly so, in some cases!), but they should just have been sold as skins in the store; not touted as legendaries.

In fact, personally, if I were ANet I would just produce a few more really pretty weapon skins for the store (most of the ones ATM are pretty underwhelming, TBH), that can also be crafted (for people who have far more time than they do RL money) and be done with it.

Game isn’t supposed to be a gear grind, after all, so stick with that premise.

Your right not a gear grind but a skin grind the differance is you have to do the former not the later

Ugh, well I guess…

Except, when you make most of the endgame about looks progression, you risk making people feel obliged to do that grind, to get the skins, even if they don’t want to.

So, although it is marginally better than a conventional gear grind, as it is not absolutely needed for further progression, it’s still potentially not so very different (or not really different enough).

Vague Memory.2817:

If the new lengendarys are like most of the old ones, I’m still not interested in them: a disco ball on a stick, a party gun, a bow that shoots unicorns etc. Most of this are joke shop items at best more suited to April 1st.

Yeah, they’re cute (almost sickeningly so, in some cases!), but they should just have been sold as skins in the store; not touted as legendaries.

In fact, personally, if I were ANet, I would just produce a few more really pretty weapon skins for the store (most of the ones available ATM are pretty underwhelming, TBH), that can also be crafted (for people who have far more time than they do RL money) and be done with it.

Game isn’t supposed to be a gear grind, after all, so stick with that premise.

I can’t be bothered with them with the current system; let alone if they made them more time intensive.

I know it’s an MMO and so a certain amount of crafting is to be expected, but I don’t play games to craft.

Ardid.7203:

I think it would be nice to have pets that don’t forget their names.

Indeed.

…and ones, other than bears, that don’t die within 2 secs would be nice, too.

I don’t like titles in any game, except possibly completely irrelevant, funny ones.

I don’t respect people who display them any more than I do anyone else and in fact, if it’s a bragging type one, quite possibly less than I do everyone else.

I live in hope.

It is running slightly less badly than it was a week or so ago, though, so I guess that’s something.

BTW, are some of the people on this thread paid by ANet?

If not, they should be.

rotten.9753:

Tigaseye.2047:

They should just get rid of the stuff that makes stacking and meleeing virtually compulsory (if you want to maximise efficiency).

Melee has higher dps (with some exceptions) because it has higher risk and it makes buffing other party members easier.

Yes, I’m aware of that and it’s poor design.

Other games do it differently.

dajohi.1970:

What are you expecting if they remove dodge

They shouldn’t remove dodge.

That would be a silly idea, frankly, as dodge helps you as much (if not more) in a non-stacking situation, as it does in a stack.

They should just get rid of the stuff that makes stacking and meleeing virtually compulsory (if you want to maximise efficiency).

maddoctor.2738:

warbignime.4610:

And please don’t you dare tell me dungeon in GW2 requires high skill level and deep tactics, cause that is just not the truth.

It’s not like in Trinity games you need high skill level or deep tactics either, or are you comparing the end game raids of said games (those that are not being run by the majority of the population) with GW2 dungeons? Why not compare dungeons with dungeons then? Trinity dungeons, once you run them a few times they are equally faceroll and easy mode, or easy mode raids that are for casuals.

Don’t talk like those require any kind of super high skill level or deep tactics to finish.

I think the problem is more that the entertainment value is entirely missing in GW2’s dungeons.

No, dungeons in other games aren’t, necessarily, hard; especially once they’re outgeared (but that, of course, is a separate issue).

However, I have literally never experienced dungeons, in other games, which are anywhere near so boring to complete as the ones in this game.

Occasionally, you will get a maverick group which allows you to do them in a freeform (i.e. non skipping, stacking and meleeing) way and then they can be really good.

Possibly better than other games’ dungeons…

However, the way most groups want you to do them, due to the design of the game, is almost unbelievably dull and monotonous.

Boring and monotonous in a way a trinity style dungeon, where you can generally stand where you like and have quite a lot of flexibility in your approach, just never is.

…and I don’t even mean that they’re boring, once you have done them a lot, which would be understandable – I mean they’re even boring the first time!

The trinity/non trinity thing isn’t necessarily the deciding factor, though.

I still think it would be possible to have a non trinity style approach and rid the game of the mechanics which encourage boring gameplay.

In my opinion, yes it is.

It may not be broken everywhere, but there are definitely significant and glaring flaws in the design, which encourage cheesing as the norm.

Cyninja.2954:

Tigaseye.2047:

Healix.5819:

Skill based gameplay makes zerker viable. GW2 is a skill based action game. Because of that, zerker, or more specifically, full offense, will always reign supreme for skilled players. Nothing will ever change that unless GW2 specifically implements gear based difficulty, as seen in traditional RPGs where it’s not your skill, but your gear that is the deciding factor.

Dark Souls for example is a challenging skill based action game. Those who can will stack offense whereas those who can’t will stack defense. The elite are capable of playing naked, so why would they ever bother with defense unless they wanted to play casually.

As GW2 continues to increase the difficulty, some people will find that they’re no longer capable of wearing zerkers, then the next step down will be the next popular. This will create a wave however, where everyone except the most elite will be shifted down and the worst players in the game will find that not even nomad’s will save them.

There will never be a solution to the “zerker meta” since it’s not a problem. It will however shrink over time as the game becomes more difficult.

It is not “skilful” to spend an entire dungeon with your character standing on top of other characters, not moving a muscle (except to dodge into a wall), ressing each other on the spot and meleeing.

The only “skill” involved there is the process of learning where to skip and where to stop and stack.

Now if only dungeons where any where near endgame content you’d be right. Try stacking every single step of a fractal 50 and see how far you get. Will it work in some places? Yes.

I’m sick of people always going:“But this dungeon.. blablabla”. Dungeons are not endgame any more. Most of them are 2.5 years old and have not seen any significant difficulty increase.

Same goes for most open world events where the zerg dominates.

The only place semi interesting for “endgame” builds is high level fractals. Here Zerker gear in the right hands outperforms other stat combos. This won’t change. This might get amended in favor of more/different damage types. But for everyone wanting defensive stats to be viable in a game designed like GW2, keep on dreaming. As long as skill allows you to avoid most/all damage, maximum damage gear will prevail. That’s how it should be.

I appreciate that dungeons are no longer new content, to you, but not everyone has been playing this game for years.

Meaning that the group content a lot of newer people are exposed to, at endgame, is a boring cheesefest, due to cheesing being allowed/encouraged by the faulty game design.

This doesn’t give a good example to newer players and even older players, who still do dungeons, treat them like a chore they just have to get through to make some gold.

Vague promises of “Well, once you finally get to x, or y, level fractals, it will be less boring.” are not good enough, from a design POV, if your first experiences of group PVE are enough to put you off group PVE, in this game, for life.

NoTrigger.8396:

you are one of those people who get carried through dungeons every single day and you dont even realize it..

You are one of those people who make rude assumptions, which are normally totally incorrect.

No, I don’t do dungeons, at all, because that is how virtually everyone else wants to do them and I don’t, because I don’t enjoy it.

But, it is the design of the game (including, but certainly not limited to, some of the gear) which encourages that playstyle.

Actually, personally, I’m not anti-zerker gear half as much as I’m anti the other things I mentioned, as I think it contributes less than them to the overall problem.

But, as it still does contribute, or help facilitate, to an extent, it is still part of the problem, whether you want to admit it, or not.

Oh and a shift key exists, BTW, just in case you hadn’t noticed.

Healix.5819:

Skill based gameplay makes zerker viable. GW2 is a skill based action game. Because of that, zerker, or more specifically, full offense, will always reign supreme for skilled players. Nothing will ever change that unless GW2 specifically implements gear based difficulty, as seen in traditional RPGs where it’s not your skill, but your gear that is the deciding factor.

Dark Souls for example is a challenging skill based action game. Those who can will stack offense whereas those who can’t will stack defense. The elite are capable of playing naked, so why would they ever bother with defense unless they wanted to play casually.

As GW2 continues to increase the difficulty, some people will find that they’re no longer capable of wearing zerkers, then the next step down will be the next popular. This will create a wave however, where everyone except the most elite will be shifted down and the worst players in the game will find that not even nomad’s will save them.

There will never be a solution to the “zerker meta” since it’s not a problem. It will however shrink over time as the game becomes more difficult.

It is not “skilful” to spend an entire dungeon with your character standing on top of other characters, not moving a muscle (except to dodge into a wall), ressing each other on the spot and meleeing.

The only “skill” involved there is the process of learning where to skip and where to stop and stack.

From what I understood anyway, the other discussion was not blaming the downed state for encouraging the use of zerker gear specifically, as much as it was blaming it for the way dungeon runs are almost invariably run, in general.

A dodge mechanic is not a main contributing factor, from that POV, as it just gives you a little more survivability; whether you are stacking, or not.

Whereas, the fact buffs are only shared while stacked, the downed state meaning it is easier to res people within a stack and melee weapons all doing more damage than ranged, do all contribute to this less than ideal wear zerker and then skip>stack>melee>rinse and repeat style of gameplay.

Removing the dodge mechanic might make zerker gear less desirable, but it would also make more free-form, ranged playstyles even less desirable, as well.

Which I don’t think would be a good thing.

Whereas, getting rid of the downed state, making buffs group-wide (without stacking) and making the damage dealt by ranged and melee weaps equal, would all encourage people to play in a far less rigid, stack obsessed way.

When I first started playing this game, I saw that we had our own heal on ranger and I thought “Oh great! That presumably means less stacking for heals.”, as in WoW the only reason you have to stack and/or stay within healing range, sometimes, is for heals.

But, of course it didn’t work out that way, as it turns out that you have to stack for pretty much everything, anyway.

Vegeta.2563:

Honestly if I’m going to go with Zerker gear, if I had a 4th stat i’d want either toughness or vit honestly.

Yeah, I agree.

DarkWasp.7291:

Tigaseye.2047:

Yes.

I hate all the stacking though, so I would have been in my element not having to do it, for once.

Because of it I don’t do dungeons, or fractals, at all.

I understand the game encourages you to do it, but if it’s possible to not do it (which I’m sure it is), they were perfectly within their rights to not do it.

Heck, even if it’s not possible, they were still perfectly within their rights to try.

Actually Bloomhunger is a static mob so there really isn’t anything weird about “stacking” in that case.

It’s actually just being used as another word for melee. This is not a corner lure situation.

(Just me being OCD)

I’m not saying it’s weird to stack.

I’m sure it isn’t and I know the game design encourages stacking and meleeing, in almost all situations.

My point is that people don’t have to play in what is considered to be the “correct”, or most efficient way, if they don’t want to.

I think half the problem is that some people don’t view games as something to be enjoyed; they view them as finding an answer to a question, where there can only be one right answer.

Then, once that “right answer” has been found, if anyone decides to do something differently, they are viewed as an abhorrence, as they are breaking the established “rules”.

It’s like trying to have fun with Sheldon Cooper…

Ultimately, though, I still blame the game more than I do the player.

As I said at the time, it would have been cute and quite fun, as long as there had been a toggle.

Without one, it was just an unfunny joke that never seemed to end.

IKL.7239:

Tigaseye.2047:

Cloudz.6890:

IKL.7239:

we were playing 20 scale fractal of the mist.

of course swamp was first stage with bloomhunger, party members did range attack whole time except me.

(mesmer warrior guardian guardian(me) and another one i dont remember)

i said “stack” 4 to 5 times but they never listened, at this point i knew they were noobs.

however we got bloomhunger without any problem,

next map was harpy map.

all of us fell down by knock back few times and i realize warrior showing offline.

so i voted to kick warrior and instead they kicked me.

do you think this is fair?

I’m fairly sure there’s a rule on the forums about talking about people ingame by showing their names or listing them here.

As far as fair, going by the image it looks like the guy was invisible, you didn’t check to see if he was actually there or not and in retaliation for trying to kick an active player, they kicked you. A better question would be: “Is it fair to kick an active participant just because I don’t see the ‘online’ indicator?” A mistake is a mistake, but it makes sense why they kicked you.

Yeah and TBH, they were probably itching for a reason to kick the annoying guy, who was trying to boss them around and probably calling them “noobs”, or worse.

Don’t blame them at all.

It should happen far more often, in fact.

if that’s the case, i better group up with friends and kick ppl for fun

It’s not for fun if you were being bossy and rude.

Bossiness and rudeness are two very valid reasons to kick someone anyway and then, just in case they were too nice to do that to you, you handed them your own tendency to kick people on a plate.

Live by the sword…

I’m not going to keep arguing around in circles with you, Garth.

I’ve said everything I need to say on this thread (often, more than once!) and I stand by it.

Happy Easter BTW, guys.

Cloudz.6890:

IKL.7239:

we were playing 20 scale fractal of the mist.

of course swamp was first stage with bloomhunger, party members did range attack whole time except me.

(mesmer warrior guardian guardian(me) and another one i dont remember)

i said “stack” 4 to 5 times but they never listened, at this point i knew they were noobs.

however we got bloomhunger without any problem,

next map was harpy map.

all of us fell down by knock back few times and i realize warrior showing offline.

so i voted to kick warrior and instead they kicked me.

do you think this is fair?

I’m fairly sure there’s a rule on the forums about talking about people ingame by showing their names or listing them here.

As far as fair, going by the image it looks like the guy was invisible, you didn’t check to see if he was actually there or not and in retaliation for trying to kick an active player, they kicked you. A better question would be: “Is it fair to kick an active participant just because I don’t see the ‘online’ indicator?” A mistake is a mistake, but it makes sense why they kicked you.

Yeah and TBH, they were probably itching for a reason to kick the annoying guy, who was trying to boss them around and probably calling them “noobs”, or worse.

Don’t blame them at all.

It should happen far more often, in fact.

IKL.7239:

we were playing 20 scale fractal of the mist.

of course swamp was first stage with bloomhunger, party members did range attack whole time except me.

(mesmer warrior guardian guardian(me) and another one i dont remember)

i said “stack” 4 to 5 times but they never listened, at this point i knew they were noobs.

however we got bloomhunger without any problem,

next map was harpy map.

all of us fell down by knock back few times and i realize warrior showing offline.

so i voted to kick warrior and instead they kicked me.

do you think this is fair?

Yes.

I hate all the stacking though, so I would have been in my element not having to do it, for once.

Because of it I don’t do dungeons, or fractals, at all.

I understand the game encourages you to do it, but if it’s possible to not do it (which I’m sure it is), they were perfectly within their rights to not do it.

Heck, even if it’s not possible, they were still perfectly within their rights to try.

Haishao.6851:

Tigaseye.2047:

The dungeon paths are, normally, played in a very, very dull way and even the “everyone is welcome” groups tend to be run by would-be “trainers” of new players, just to get them all trained-up for the skip>stack>melee boredom train.

And in WoW every single dungeon is the same tank & spank boredom train.

As I say, I didn’t say WoW was perfect (it isn’t), but at least you don’t have to stand on top of each other, in exactly the same places, not moving muscle and only using your melee weaps, all the time.

Jana.6831:

Why would I? It’s extremely egoistical to think that one holds all wisdom and is above everything everybody else likes.

Maybe it would be, if this was a purely subjective issue.

But, I can’t, in all honesty, see how the way the game is designed, to encourage the most boring dungeon runs I have ever encountered (not because of the dungeons themselves; purely due to the way they are run), as subjective.

I’m not someone who tries to say everyone should like what I like – in fact, I’m the reverse of that – but this design is not promoting choice and varying forms of fun, at all.

In fact, it is doing the reverse – promoting utter rigidity, complete lack of choice and stagnation.

Surely, you can see that?

Jana.6831:

Tigaseye.2047:

Jana.6831:

Umm.. I hated wow and love GW, so let me play my game and go to wow if you like it better?

The question is, exactly why did you hate WoW and exactly why do you like this game?

It’s not as simple as saying “Go to WoW.”, as WoW has its own issues.

Not to mention that, if a company makes its money from designing games, it won’t regard the answer to problems within its game design as “Go to WoW.”.

It’s your answer to me, of course, as you’re just one player; but, it wouldn’t be theirs (or, not officially, anyway!).

This game is, undoubtedly, better in some ways (mainly levelling design and surface ones, admittedly) and WoW is better in others (mainly the fundamental gameplay design).

The thing is, that this is not even a subjective view.

Forcing/highly encouraging players to play in a very rigid, predetermined, boring way, is just not optimal design, whichever way you look at it.

Doesn’t mean this game has to be a carbon copy of WoW, but unless they can come up with a watertight design, which is objectively as good, or better, it would be preferable to employ at least some of WoW’s tried and trusted methods, rather than continuing along this faulty path.

There is a mistaken belief that originality is everything in design, but the secret of really good design is knowing what should be redesigned and what it is better to copy.

At least until you know you have something better, anyway.

It would be a lot to explain but to make it simple: I hated almost everything about wow and think GW2 did most of it better and is still doing it better although they messed up since april last year. Anyway, to me this game is still better than wow or any other game I know. The moment I don’t like it anymore I’ll stop playing, I would never demand a game that already existed long before I came along to change so I would be happy, so I don’t understand you.

Well, if you can immediately see a game has issues, you should suggest it is changed, simple as that.

The opinions of new players are at least as valid as those of older players (and I say this as a non-new player of WoW, now), as first impressions count.

It’s no good, as a company, just saying “Oh well, a few people seem to like it as it is and don’t leave.” if that means the game is in danger of haemorrhaging newer players.

If all these issues were subjective, then fair enough, but they’re not.

The dungeon paths are, normally, played in a very, very dull way and even the “everyone is welcome” groups tend to be run by would-be “trainers” of new players, just to get them all trained-up for the skip>stack>melee boredom train.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Tigaseye.2047:

Jana.6831:

Umm.. I hated wow and love GW, so let me play my game and go to wow if you like it better?

The question is, exactly why did you hate WoW and exactly why do you like this game?

It’s not as simple as saying “Go to WoW.”, as WoW has its own issues.

Not to mention that, if a company makes its money from designing games, it won’t regard the answer to problems within its game design as “Go to WoW.”.

It’s your answer to me, of course, as you’re just one player; but, it wouldn’t be theirs (or, not officially, anyway!).

This game is, undoubtedly, better in some ways (mainly levelling design and surface ones, admittedly) and WoW is better in others (mainly the fundamental gameplay design).

The thing is, that this is not even a subjective view.

Forcing/highly encouraging players to play in a very rigid, predetermined, boring way, is just not optimal design, whichever way you look at it.

Doesn’t mean this game has to be a carbon copy of WoW, but unless they can come up with a watertight design, which is objectively as good, or better, it would be preferable to employ at least some of WoW’s tried and trusted methods, rather than continuing along this faulty path.

There is a mistaken belief that originality is everything in design, but the secret of really good design is knowing what should be redesigned and what it is better to copy.

At least until you know you have something better, anyway.

It is also a mistaken belief that you not liking something personally doesn’t suddenly make it a design flaw.

I would agree, but in this case, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

The majority of experienced players believe there is only one efficient way to play dungeon paths and that is to wear certain gear, employ certain builds, use certain classes, use certain Ranger pets (which then die almost immediately – but that’s OK, as they were only ever needed for the initial buff!) and then run the paths in exactly the same way, every single time.

Skip exactly the same mobs, every single time, stack in exactly the same places, every single time, stand completely still in that stack, every single time (apart from the occasional stationary dodge, into a nearby wall) and only use melee weaps (as ranged ones do less damage in this situation), every single time.

It’s naïve to think that players play this way for no good reason.

They may have a ridiculously high tolerance to boredom and no discernable sense of originality, but they’re not idiots.

They, like all human beings, have an instinctive ability to find the path of least resistance, they have found it (at least, in theory – new players may mess that path up, so you state “exp only”) and so, they follow it.

…and this path of least resistance isn’t due to some random coincidence, it follows the exact design of the game.

If you’re trying to suggest that the aforementioned, entirely predetermined, entirely set, way of playing is a fun one, then really, you need to at least try some other games.

Jana.6831:

Umm.. I hated wow and love GW, so let me play my game and go to wow if you like it better?

The question is, exactly why did you hate WoW and exactly why do you like this game?

It’s not as simple as saying “Go to WoW.”, as WoW has its own issues.

Not to mention that, if a company makes its money from designing games, it won’t regard the answer to problems within its game design as “Go to WoW.”.

It’s your answer to me, of course, as you’re just one player; but, it wouldn’t be theirs (or, not officially, anyway!).

This game is, undoubtedly, better in some ways (mainly levelling design and surface ones, admittedly) and WoW is better in others (mainly the fundamental gameplay design).

The thing is, that this is not even a subjective view.

Forcing/highly encouraging players to play in a very rigid, predetermined, boring way, is just not optimal design, whichever way you look at it.

Doesn’t mean this game has to be a carbon copy of WoW, but unless they can come up with a watertight design, which is objectively as good, or better, it would be preferable to employ at least some of WoW’s tried and trusted methods, rather than continuing along this faulty path.

There is a mistaken belief that originality is everything in design, but the secret of really good design is knowing what should be redesigned and what it is better to copy.

At least until you know you have something better, anyway.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

GW2 =/= WOW

/15 Char

No, it’s worse, even though it doesn’t need to be.

As for 15 chars, that is nothing to boast about, believe me.

Muffin Nook.5923:

Algreg.3629:

No, it’s a realisation that all these things, combined (not just zerker gear), are encouraging players to play in a boring, formulaic way, which ruins what could be a really good game.

I’ve said this before, but my guild chat is full of “we’re so good at cheesing” comments.

A well designed game, in this way, simply doesn’t allow cheesing (or as little as is humanly possible).

…and it sure as heck doesn’t actively encourage it.

Are you new to MMO?
There have been no significant changes to dungeons since release. The content is extremely repetitive, players want to get through it as efficiently as possible. Same thing can be said for any open world content too.
Funny thing is same attitude creeps into any online game I have ever played going as far back as Diku MuDs.
Diku Muds – you wanted to be a C/M/T for the backstab, sanc and firepower.
EQ – so many “cheese” professions to choose from. Bard, Druid, Necro, Shaman.
UO – didn’t matter as long as you maxxed alchemy
Lineage II – the list is too long to bother.
Guildwars – Ritualist, Imbagon, Mesmer, Assassin.

In every single online game eventually knowledge of the mathematical nature of character statistics becomes readily available and people determine the best party composition based on available gear, skills and professions. Through practice and experience they will find the optimum ways to finish content as efficiently as possible to access the end rewards faster.

That all being said, If anet were to add a “hardmode” where there wasn’t a downed state in dungeons, gave an endurance debuff for less dodging, and bumped up the rewards I would be all for it. Something like that would make us all have to rethink group composition, gear choices, and would probably make skipping extremely difficult in certain dungeons. It would certainly add something to the dungeons after 3 years of the same thing day after day.

No, I’m not new to MMOs.

Have you ever played WoW?

The problems detailed in this thread are not problems that WoW suffers from and that is purely due to half decent game design.

Good games don’t allow their players to cheese their content, just because they’re in a hurry.

WoW has other issues, due to the (out)gearing process, but that just makes instances go quicker; it doesn’t force this kind of ridiculous skip>stack in same place every single time>melee gameplay, via its fundamental game design.

Hard modes are not enough to save this game because, at any one point in time, not everyone will have played the game long enough to access them.

The danger is that if dungeons seem, simultaneously, confusing (due to new people not knowing where to skip and stack, yet and/or that their ranged weaps are virtually redundant) AND boring and repetitive (due to the poor game design) many people won’t even bother getting as far as the hardmode dungeons, even if they are more interesting, they will just give up.

I shouldn’t have urges to go back to WoW – WoW is 10 years old, the current xpac is boring (to me) and overly male-oriented and yet, I almost do.

That is not right.

This beautiful-looking game, with a pretty nice first time levelling experience, should be able to beat WoW hands down, so why is it not able to?

Because, if I’m anything to go by, most people would rather stick hot needles in their eyes than do skip>stack>melee dungeon paths.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

You choose a name that sounds like the word for the sexual violation of a child and you think that is a fun, tongue in cheek name?

I bet you’re a blast at parties.

To be fair, The IT Crowd episode he (almost certainly) got this from was funny.

However, there is a difference between something being funny within a comedy show storyline and it being found funny in abstract, as a name in a game, where most people probably didn’t even see the show.

Well, you called it that so it sounded like paedophile, so what did you expect?

Did you do it because of the The IT Crowd?

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Well I guess the wannabee zerkers comprise a large part of the LFG at the momenty, when pugging (I pug 95% of all my runs I get 33-50% good runs, with truly experience ppl, I get 33% decent runs, mostlky with 1 or 2 ppl who are still trying to figure out things and I have 15% of nooblets, who stand there pull and get instawiped due to no food, no stacking (might), breaking stack, no protection, blinds, aegis and so on. I also have about 5-10% troll runs with ppl wanting to be carried on x build or lower level chars….

Just saying downed stats removed will make well 60% of my present runs unviable due to idiots. You do not know how often I just stood somewhere with a full zerk ele, blasting away at a boss due to all my guards, warriors and other ppl in party dying due to stupidity. I sometimes manage to pull things off, but not always… killing 66% spider in AC solo isn’t too difficult, but kiting kohler does pose some problems when not having anything to mitigate or stabilize…. somtimes an elemental powder comes ion very handy though..

You’re missing the entire point of this thread…

Algreg.3629:

You keep insisting that zerker gear has no “downs”. It has, you die more easily. People running it succesfully just know to avoid this. Don´t get me wrong, I really dislike GW2 combat with the dungeon stacking and all. But if you change the game there will be a new best gear people will flock to, nothing changed. I wonder what that whole zerker complaining is really about. I suspect it is 10% trinity fans finally wanting to get their beloved, dusty system in here and 90% bad players who cannot manage damage mitigation in zerker, feel left out and demand better players having their toys removed.

No, it’s a realisation that all these things, combined (not just zerker gear), are encouraging players to play in a boring, formulaic way, which ruins what could be a really good game.

I’ve said this before, but my guild chat is full of “we’re so good at cheesing” comments.

A well designed game, in this way, simply doesn’t allow cheesing (or as little as is humanly possible).

…and it sure as heck doesn’t actively encourage it.

mando.2730:

Thank you! I’m glad that you understand the point, I have heard many people say before “just play however you want, it doesn’t matter”, when in fact, the simple fact that zerker and stacking etc is so much more viable means that it really does matter. When you know that your build is far less effective than full zerker, it almost forces you to run a zerker, because you obviously want to be as effective as possible.

Exactly.

My pleasure, BTW – thanks for the thoughtful and interesting posts.

Personally, I would just remove zerker gear from the game entirely.

In other words, I would just stick Vitality onto all gear, as a non-optional stat.

Pretty much in the same way as you have Stamina, as a non-optional stat, in WoW.

People feeling forced to run zerker does not make them (or some of them, at least) happy and it is bad for the game, as it helps facilitate this abysmally dull, effectively compulsory, skip>stack>melee playstyle.

You’re right, the downed state, also, probably doesn’t help, either, as doesn’t the fact that buffs are gained from stacking only.

As both of these things make the most boring part of the gameplay (IMO), in this game (i.e. stacking), the most optimal.

…and yes, yes, we all know you could, in theory, make your own group, where everyone has to where pink only and stand on their heads eating spaghetti, while playing, if you wanted to.

But, that is not the point here, as you shouldn’t have to always make your own groups in order to play in a more inventive, less restrictive, less mind-numbingly boring way.

…and the more interesting way should never be the less efficient way.

Making the game interesting, for all and preventing cheesing should be the primary job of the game’s devs; not its players.

Especially as we all know that most hardcore players will always go the quickest and easiest route, even if it ruins the game for others and makes them just give up and leave.

Lolyta.4582:

Look at it another way: if [insert name of your favorite outfit here] had been available when you bought it as an armor skin set that you could pick ’n choose which parts you wear and mix ’n match with other armor pieces, would you still have chosen the outfit that offered no flexibility whatsoever as to which pieces you wear and/or mix ’n match?

I know you’re not asking me but, TBH, I probably would have done, in the case of the Pirate Captain’s outfit.

As I like pretty much all of it, can hide the hat (only reason I don’t wear the hat is that it removes your char’s hair) and gloves (not that I particularly mind the gloves, I just don’t tend to wear gloves unless they’re fingerless) and was specifically looking for something I could dress chars in while levelling, without having to worry about the cost of transmutation charges.

I think the only real downside I found with it is that, when you dye the scarf belt, it also dyes part of the boot.

So, that kind of limits what colour you dye it, as what looks a good colour for a scarf, doesn’t necessarily look a good colour as part of a boot.

The fact that I like all of it doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like it if I could also hide more parts (or, more likely, switch them out for other things) and/or only use certain parts, as and when I wanted to, but still.

I think there is definitely a good case for outfits, too – like most things in life, it’s not an either/or situation.