Guild Wars 2

Erasculio.2914:

Vayne.8563:

There’s zero in that paragraph that takes about gear. You’ve simply read into it what you want.

And more and more people are seeing what Anet actually means there, which is what they said they’ve meant several times since. Why argue against something Anet has already clarified?

Really?

Ok, let’s read the clarification:

ArenaNet

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

“Fun reward” = gear, for example.

Ergo, guess what Vayne? And, for the records, this has been mentioned in this topic already.

A good editor would have noticed it.

That’s rather a leap that “Fun reward” must equal gear.

Phantom.8130:

ezd.6359:

About kids… Nothing personal. I meant they have free time to spend they don’t know how. I suggest to get a job and buy keys directly. Even if it will be 5$ a hour – it is much more profitable.

so…… you’re suggesting that kids get jobs to support their video game gambling habits, and you see nothing wrong with that….?

I’ve seen there’s one of two outcomes:

- They work for their money instead of getting it given to them as an allowance, so they get a bigger respect for it.

- They blow it and wind up learning working and being broke is no fun.

Whether they change their mind depends on more variables but I’ve seen grown adults be completely careless with their money for less

Dresden.1736:

“Your experience is worth less to us than the cost of better CPUs. Deal with it, aholes.” -Classic ANet

Except I don’t think the cost is as trivial as people make it out to be . . . we’re not talking home computers, we’re talking commercial hardware. Not just once, but I-Don’t-Know how many times over. And if you want a substantial boost rather than a minimal step, we get a higher pricetag of the order of Y^X where X is the number of servers which would need upgrading . . .

Having seen at least one time a free game listed costs off about server maintenance, and upgrades, the number ain’t trivial . . . and probably shouldn’t be trivialized.

Makade.8042:

Why is this somewhat unusual?

It’s not unusual.

Many game development teams do approach their game with this kind of tenacity, but not the budget which allows much. MMOs largely fail because they attempt less at being their own entity and more of “what did X do right that we can do too?” . . . leading to the same-y slush of MMOs which Guild Wars 1 distinguished itself from enough to spawn a sequel. And for all its faults GW2 does distinguish itself also . . . so that’s why it’s lasting.

Oh, and no subscription fees or pay-walls help.

HiddenNick.7206:

BobbyStein.2315:

I mentioned this in another thread, but I’ll post it here for safety. We’re working on a system to direct people through the Living World (and other) content to address many of the issues people have in experiencing a linear narrative in a non-linear setting. This is something we’ve been aware of for a while but we’re now able to talk about since the system is being built. I can’t go into specifics just yet, but the long term plan is to provide players with a central mechanism for tracking content and having a better understanding of the stories in the game.

As always, thanks for the constructive feedback.

One question… When? Weeks? Months? This Year?

I’d place bets on two to three LS story updates, at the beginning, which is when they tend to throw major changes in.

Xar.6185:

So long story short, they are aware that the current method is not the best.
How long it takes them to find a solution, and an individuals reaction to that amount of time, is up to them I guess.

It’s probably not hard to find a solution, but it’s likely much harder to find one which doesn’t turn out to have glaring issues in other places/directions than the current one under testing.

To say nothing of when they use the public test, I mean, day one of the patch . . .

Insignya.8625:

Hunzo.4509:

On the whole it’s amazingly balanced, yes there are issues that need fixed such as melee classes not being able to have the same kind of survivability in boss fights as ranged classes.

But on the whole yes the game is balanced imo.

What was the last balanced game you played? Minecraft?

Minecraft balanced? Hehe . . . right . . . hehe . . .

The biggest problem is that in later Guild Wars 1 efforts, the player character as the hero was better achieved. So it baffles me sometimes how we stepped back to what we had in Prophecies, where the player character wasn’t a hero by deed so much as by fortune/prophecy bringing them to the position where they could be heroes.

I do like heroes more who act by choice rather than having circumstance draw them into the limelight. Which is probably why I like (not love) the GW2 character – they choose to start down this path, rather than being drawn into it. Well, except for the asura; they seem like they need to be duped into it.

darkace.8925:

If we’re going to be time-gated per account (not character), then gearing alts in a higher tier gear is going to take an insultingly long time. I truly believe the developers are talented enough to entice us to log in on a daily basis with compelling game play. But all I see is more and more time-gating and daily carrots being dangled.

Pointing this out, the “highest tier”, not “high tier”, which is fine with me taking time. “High tier” would be Exotic, which is remarkably easier to get to; just craft your own. It would seem to me that’s really what the crafting professions are for – to gear up in the gaps of what you haven’t been able to have drop.

The “daily carrots and time-gating” don’t concern me as much as the metagame still rewarding DPS-based builds/gear running in zergs smashing everything in low level areas in thirty seconds or less. Higher level areas take a little longer. I’d like to see the upscaling for amount of people around an event/champion evolve their attack pattern so they have more ways of dealing with swarms.

. . . also, please don’t hate me but for this “Highest tier” I’ll take time gating over RNG drops. Just saying.

Craptrain.7203:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Craptrain.7203:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Craptrain.7203:

Okay, so that’s you. My personal philosophy is that once a game starts to feel like a job, I’m done with it. Mandating I be there everyday to perform routine mindless tasks in order to receive a certain reward (contrary to being there by choice for fun) seems awfully job-like to me. I’m willing to bet more than a handful of people share my philosophy.

I would agree, but I have yet to see a mandate . . . a requirement to be there every day.

You seem to have missed the second half of that sentence. You know, the part where I said “… in order to receive a certain reward.” Yeah sure, no one is forcing you to play every day, but very day you miss is a laurel you lose out on, APs you lose out on, quartz nodes you lose out on, etc.

I didn’t miss the second half of the sentence, I just think the rewards are . . . bluntly, underwhelming and too much importance is placed on them existing at all. It does start with the question “what in the rewards are you needing?” and followed by “why?”.

I’m as serious as they are about this pursuit. If you’re going to attach some level of “requirement” then you need to stop to think about why you feel it’s a requirement, and what it gets you. People bring up operant conditioning, which is why I ask that question all the time of myself: “why?”

And if the answer is “because it’s there”, that’s the cue to step back and reconsider your answer.

You’re misinterpreting again. Laurels, APs, quartz nodes become the answer to ’Why did I play today?" The answer to that question should be “fun”.

I may have been misinterpreting, because we agree on that. But when the answer is “Laurels/AP/Quartz/Fuzzy Tails” then I really do want to ask “why do you need those things?”.

Thing is, I find chasing Achievements fun. Oh, not the ones like “1000 Sword kills” or “Kill one million yaks or die of old age” . . . I mean the Explorer category, pretty much. Or the Hero one (“hey, why don’t you try different races/orders?”). I enjoyed much the same on GW1, and left a lot alone.

But I chase them because I read “Find the Forsaken Halls” and go “. . . okay, what the heck is that?”. Because I enjoy trying some . . . SOME . . . of the jumping puzzles. (Mad King’s Clock Tower can go straight to Abaddon though.)

Craptrain.7203:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Craptrain.7203:

Okay, so that’s you. My personal philosophy is that once a game starts to feel like a job, I’m done with it. Mandating I be there everyday to perform routine mindless tasks in order to receive a certain reward (contrary to being there by choice for fun) seems awfully job-like to me. I’m willing to bet more than a handful of people share my philosophy.

I would agree, but I have yet to see a mandate . . . a requirement to be there every day.

You seem to have missed the second half of that sentence. You know, the part where I said “… in order to receive a certain reward.” Yeah sure, no one is forcing you to play every day, but very day you miss is a laurel you lose out on, APs you lose out on, quartz nodes you lose out on, etc.

I didn’t miss the second half of the sentence, I just think the rewards are . . . bluntly, underwhelming and too much importance is placed on them existing at all. It does start with the question “what in the rewards are you needing?” and followed by “why?”.

I’m as serious as they are about this pursuit. If you’re going to attach some level of “requirement” then you need to stop to think about why you feel it’s a requirement, and what it gets you. People bring up operant conditioning, which is why I ask that question all the time of myself: “why?”

And if the answer is “because it’s there”, that’s the cue to step back and reconsider your answer.

Bezayne.6459:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I would rather game designers make the game they want to make first rather than focus on making it “enjoyable for as many as possible” first. I’ve enjoyed games which were made by the former much more often than ones made by the latter.

I am with you on that one and have left a game before where the designers tried to cater to the most common denominator. I’s sure you can guess which one I am referring to here. But being required to perform a menial task on a daily basis is probably not what draws you to GW2 in the first place, right? So why not make it more palatable by not having it as a daily?

I’m going to guess Ultima Online.

Anyway, it’s not about the palatable. I said, or at least someone did maybe I just quoted . . . about why the Daily exists. It’s so we get people doing things and we don’t have new people, or the constant players logging in and not being able to do anything because there’s not enough people. It’s intended so there’s always someone in Kryta/Ascalon/Maguuma when that Champion you can’t solo is up so you can take care of it. So you don’t have to worry about trying to solo the Shatterer because nobody wants to take it on.

Incredibly (sarcasm warning) it’s very rare these attempts work as intended. Trying to do that for players is like teaching a cat to sing or teaching a pig to dance. It won’t be good if you manage it, and it annoys everyone involved.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I get where you’re coming from, but . . . just because a player can do something, or chooses a challenge, I don’t want to first lay responsibility on the designers. If someone wants to self-limit to a naked charr thief who never purchases skills or traits, I don’t expect the designers to have him/her/it in mind when they balance things, if you catch my drift. Similarly, if a player isn’t going to be happy without being #1 on a leaderboard, I’m not going to say that’s the designer’s fault.

I would not argue that the current game is generally encouraging people to pick naked charr thieves as their main character – you will always have special birds finding their niche in gameplay, but I am not concerned about those. I am concerned about reward systems in the game encouraging people to play in a way they actually do not enjoy. Leaving the player with the option to ignore the system (and lose out on rewards) or follow it. Resulting in a loss of gaming “happyness” either way. Thus the system is to blame, not the player.

I’m not arguing that either, merely pointing out that there is a point where we have to start going “maybe it really is the players’ habits” instead of “the designer made me do it”. (The MMO form of “the devil made me do it” which is just as amusing as it is otherwise.)

It’s been stated, also, why the Daily and such offer things which “suck” or are uninteresting – they want players to think about trying them rather than writing it off. Anyway, the system now is what people asked for, begged for, back in the day when Daily was just “X kills, Y variety, Z events, K gathering, yay, get your silver, karma, experience”. Variety? Sure, they got it. Then they wanted choice, and it was given. Now the fact there is a choice is being griped on, and it kind of makes me think there will never be a solution which will make the players happy, and the effort to make this Daily/Monthly rotating choice was a wasted block of time.

So, in short . . . if the system was changed at the behest of players, they should probably shoulder some of the blame. Not all, but some.

Evans.6347:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Why is nobody asking the more important question . . . ?

Why does that thing have a feminine shape up to and including, er, curves?

Have you seen the sheen on those parts. Someone loves his job all right.

. . . I’ll be honest, if my job was to make sure those things shined in the sunlight, I’d be more afraid of the people who told me to do it than motivated out of passion. Krytans aren’t always . . . right in the head, you know?

Bezayne.6459:

About the quartz and celestial, sure, right now not many people care too much. That will change if the same mechanic is used once ascended crafting arrives, which looks likely as of now. I personally would be really annoyed if I then have to mine a certain node, harvest a certain plant and fell a certain tree once per day every day for a month to craft one item. Instead of going on a gathering spree on a lazy sunday afternoon to get materials.

Yeah, but I can only argue cases sincerely (or will only argue cases sincerely) for things which are present now. I can speculate as much as the next guy . . .

. . . no, wait. Scratch that. I might speculate as much as the next guy, but in this case I can only wait and see what comes up. From what I can . . . intuit, the implication seems to be the new materials are taken to a Place of Power (Commune Skill Points) to be infused with energy and ‘charged’. I’m not sure but if it turns out to be Fine materials or Rare materials into the next step? Oh boy it could be worse.

Unless these are the materials dropped off Champions, in which case you’re not going to be stuck mining a node once a day, you’ll have a Champion to kill. Which, if Queensdale or recent experiences with “Champion Slayer” being on the Monthly is any indication, means you might see people actively hunting Champions.

It speculative, but it’s what I’m expecting.

My point of view is always at first at the game design and what it – intentionally or not – encourages the players to do. The first responsibility (and interest) is of the game designers to make their game good and enjoyable. Don’t move that to the players because the designers have failed.

I would rather game designers make the game they want to make first rather than focus on making it “enjoyable for as many as possible” first. I’ve enjoyed games which were made by the former much more often than ones made by the latter.

I get where you’re coming from, but . . . just because a player can do something, or chooses a challenge, I don’t want to first lay responsibility on the designers. If someone wants to self-limit to a naked charr thief who never purchases skills or traits, I don’t expect the designers to have him/her/it in mind when they balance things, if you catch my drift. Similarly, if a player isn’t going to be happy without being #1 on a leaderboard, I’m not going to say that’s the designer’s fault.

Gehenna.3625:

Right, give me your point of view on this. I’ll listen to what you have to say. Epic heroic story right?

This is rather an important moment in the story I would say and we only get a story mission every few levels. Seriously, how can anyone keep a straight face and call this epic? How?

You can use Spoiler tags, you know . . . but I don’t think anyone here is particularly going to be spoiled

I didn’t call it “epic”, but I’ve seen worse. (Oh, Prince Rurik, I swear if I run into you again . . .)

But truthfully? I found Claw Island to be a minor mess so far as things went.

- So the Lionguard trusts this person to command here, but his ego is too big to follow procedure. The fact he’s a charr sold me on it, but it still sort of bugs me.

- So Zhaitan’s forces attacked in small bursts rather than an initial overwhelming surge to be stopped by degrees? I thought that would have been better, having to do a “fighting withdrawal” with Lionguard serving to run blocking for you until you could reach the dock and shove off.

- On the return, everyone seems to scatter off once they hit the courtyard, and they get picked off quickly. I would rather have seen the groups set up a perimeter at the dock entry and small groups one at a time go to seize the objectives rather than all at once.

- I really wish the Tequatl-like champion wound up to be a tougher match, such as backing off at various points and moving to other spots. “Well this isn’t working here, so let’s try the other point where the trouble’s not at.” They’re supposed to be at least a little intelligent . . .

So no, this single mission? Not epic. Could have been, but missed the mark. On the other hand, I found the Defense of Fort Trinity much better executed. I found everything after that much better executed . . . right up until Arah.

Bezayne.6459:

You are missing an important point there. With rewards being given for AP, people want to achieve the most AP possible. This is also reinforced by having AP leader boards, thus Anet is giving even more importance to this AP-hunt. Wether you personally buy into this specific game design is not deciding, a lot of people do and feel unhappy due to it.

Wasn’t “leaderboards” something that kept getting asked for for a long time by the players? I mean, if they asked for it and we got given it, isn’t it kind of our own fault the Leaderboards exist?

And a mild philosophical point . . . if you subject yourself to being unhappy to chase something which doesn’t affect anything (Leaderboards), when does it start being your own fault?

Yes, there’s some rewards for doing the achievements and some useful stuff you can get through them. But there’s only a fraction of those which actually do anything substantial.

It’s a tad heartless, but there comes a time in every MMO where you realize you’re not going to have everything, and you should just focus on what you really want first. Then use your leftover time to broaden out.

What is being suggested here multiple times is to provide more freedom in getting those time-gated APs, by moving dailies to be weeklies. Also to get rid of menial tasks like mine a certain node once per day. The most annoying about it is not the mining, it is each day you have to suffer multiple slow loading screens to even get to that node in the first place, with nothing else to do in that area. Let me mine it once per week seven times at once, and I will feel a lot less annoyed about it.

In the end it is about a good gaming experience, and providing options to please various tastes / needs is always a Good Thing™.

I’m not sure it would help if “Daily” was changed to “Weekly”, because I’m almost certain we’d be visiting this conversation again anyway. Also, the menial tasks of mining, I think, you mean the Home Instance quartz node? Yeah, I don’t know if it’s stil llike this . . . but the Quartz is only good for one thing in the end: Celestial Gear, which I seem to recall nobody really liking so far as for statistics in the past.

Vayne.8563:

The very fact that most people hate him makes him a tragedy. It’s probably the voice acting, but also some of the choices of dialogue. Maybe when they thought up this won’t end well, they were being prophetic.

He’s disliked enough where it was a mistake to include him as is.

I don’t know if “most people” actually hate him or they just like to say they do because more vocal people keep saying how horrible he is. You know, like a “hate meme” . . .

Vayne.8563:

I didn’t mean a tragic character in the sense of tragedy. I mean he’s a tragic character. That is to say, his inclusion in the story is pretty much a tragedy. I was trying to be funny.

Nah. His inclusion isn’t a tragedy, because I am doing the missions with my lil sylvari elementalist and the introduction is going nicer than with Tobias. The handling of his character in the last third is the tragic part.

Vayne.8563:

Trehearne is a tragic character, but not a particularly heroic one. If anything he’s an anti-hero to your hero.

Oh Vayne, it’s time for me to disagree with you. Trahearne is not a tragic character, and certainly not an anti-hero. He’s a reluctant hero, which is a very different matter. He’s not particularly tragic.

Just his voice acting is, but I’m not sure if that’s the directing or the actor’s doing. (I’m reminded of another character who always sounded flat like that, or uninterested even when delivering what should be passionate lines. Director’s fault, not the VA, but the VA got so much flak from it he decided to never work the character again.)

Gehenna.3625:

Sigh, Zhaitan was killed blah blah blah. Call it what you want. The main story is over and as it stands Trahearne is the main man from the moment he comes in the story pretty much.

Please don’t focus on whether or not it meant saving the world. The hero of the story was Trahearne, not my character. My point was clearly not whether we saved the world or not but the fact that Trahearne is the main character in the second half of the story line. So please respond to that part. If it’s so important to you that the world is actually technically not saved, well fine. You win we didn’t save the world. But feel free to respond to the main point which is that Trahearne is the main character in this story and not the player’s character.

Mmm, sure. You want to make your case first or should I? Oh, fine, I’ll go first.

The story focuses on Trahearne’s mission to cleanse Orr and thus in the process bring about Zhaitan’s downfall. He is not the main character of the story, that falls to you. Because despite the fact he is leading, you are the one doing and the people who serve in the Pact are aware of it. They follow Trahearne, but they honor . . . you. Charr, norn, sylvari, and grudgingly even asura trust in you to make sure they make it through their missions alive.

Trahearne shows up almost out of nowhere around the time of reaching Claw Island, at least if you’re not a sylvari. It’s revealed he will lead the Pact, but nobody has any clue what exactly is needed for it to happen. But your character talks people into joining up, and your character shores up problems and makes sure this is going to work.

That section of the story is about Trahearne’s Wyld Hunt and how it’s filled. You play a crucial role in that happening, so to say you don’t actually matter to the story . . . I really don’t get how you reach that.

Now, on topic . . .

You want to know why all our characters are heroes? It’s not about wrestling Zhaitan into a headlock and shoving an airship up under his tail. It’s not turning Kralkatorrik into a stained glass monument over the Dragonbrand big enough to be seen from Elona. It’s not grinding Jormag’s face into a snowcone awesome enough to make a norn stop drinking.

It’s the fact we showed up to the “party” at all. Instead of saying “nope, not my problem” and focusing on Kryta . . . Ascalon, Rata Sum, Hoelbrak . . . our characters said “no, screw that Zhaitan” and decided something had to be done. It’s our characters knocking Destiny’s Edge out of their little drama funk and getting them back on the horse so they can shut up and get on with life. It’s our characters telling the Mad King to sit down, shut up, and drink his Ovaltine. It’s our characters freelancing with Rox and Braham to shut down the Molten Alliance facility, two untested and new adventurers who now owe us favors.

They owe us favors. Not Trahearne (whose mother smelt of elderberries), not Logan Thackeray (may his hair be forever feathered), not Eir Stegalkin (norn have no need of suicide, we throw ourselves on our enemies swords and say we died in battle), not Zojja (the eminently punt-able squirt who isn’t worthy of replacing Zekk as my asura buddy), not Rytlock Brimstone (who makes me want Pyre Fierceshot back), and not Ellen Kiel (whose biggest talent is motivating active talent into doing things).

That’s why Tobias Trueflight is a hero, though you won’t see him bragging about it. He’s too busy taking a dirt nap in the Mist War. (Darn thieves.)

Arimahn.3568:

What if 3/4 of the options you get for your daily are bad, to you personally?

I don’t do them, and find something else to do if I feel like playing. Or I push the daily effort to the next day. Seriously, I don’t need to do every day’s Daily. Then again, I realize I am a complete moron about chasing the carrot since I don’t do it if I’m not after making carrot cake the next day.

Gehenna.3625:

Knowing that you are reduced to a sidek— as Trahearne hits the stage, therefore means that half the story is not “I am a hero” but “I was there when Trahearne saved the world”.

Sorry but they knew this and they spun it the way the needed it for sales.

I hate to break it to you but Trahearne still hasn’t saved the world, claimed credit for anything he’s not due, or even been the most awesome person in the room.

(That’s still Tybalt by the way, who sends his greetings from Southsun Cove where he is drinking from tall glasses with fruit on little sticks in them.)

Orr is . . . not even saved, but the first step is done. We don’t know how long it will take to clean it up or even what’s going to happen now that Zhaitan is finished and the Source is purified.

Now there’s still the issue of the Icebrood, the Branded, the Destroyers and their masters.

World’s not saved yet. Time to get up and get started again, work’s still calling.

Balkanwarrior.5132:

Reading this thread is a goldmine. If some of you like arguing so much, why not become lawyers? Oh right. You can’t sit behind a computer and type your rebuttals in a court room

I don’t want to be a lawyer, mostly because they don’t get to make the arguments they want, they have to make arguments they are paid to make. They also have an insane amount of education (not just college but study time for cases) which means I would have even less personal time than I did when I was an engineering student . . .

But this veered off topic so let’s just try to salvage it:

I like GW2 but hate Facebook.

Craptrain.7203:

Okay, so that’s you. My personal philosophy is that once a game starts to feel like a job, I’m done with it. Mandating I be there everyday to perform routine mindless tasks in order to receive a certain reward (contrary to being there by choice for fun) seems awfully job-like to me. I’m willing to bet more than a handful of people share my philosophy.

I would agree, but I have yet to see a mandate . . . a requirement to be there every day. And so I play when I feel like it, I don’t when I don’t, and I have Minecraft and Catan on tap for those days.

Turbo Whale.1738:

Little customization? Are you crazy? You pick 3 utilities out of like 40, 1 heal out of 3, and 1 elite out of 3. Not only that, but 2 weapon sets. In many other MMOs every elementalist or necro you see would have the same exact skill layout

In this game, most people do have one or two skill layouts only, though not always the same. They find one weapon set they like, one type of skill focus they like, and they run with it until they need to change it. Then they might change completely or only for a time.

In GW1, on the other hand, there were an incredible spread of skills but many of them were just of questionable use. Not “they are generally thought of as bad, but…” . . . no, literally they were “What the heck do I do with this? How does this even work? Should I use this elite or this other elite? What about my secondary profession?”

The difference between the two games is, agreeably, staggering. In GW1 you had tons of options but many of them would go unused except for one or two specific builds. In GW2 you have less options but there’s a greater chance you’ll find a use for them.

Except for Ranger Spirits. They can go die in a fire.

Smith.1826:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not a massive force by the time you get to it. It’s a weakened force. We have zero evidence that Zhaitan was so powerful except in its ability to raise the dead, which we took from it.

It doesn’t mean he had to be a pushover. There was a LOT of build up in the story that all pointed to Zhaitan. He’s not just the epilogue to the dungeon, he’s the final boss of the entire personal story. So when the fight in question is one of the most uninvolving, debatably ‘unheroic’ fights in the game, I don’t think it’s unfair for people to be disappointed.

It’s not unfair, and I agree that it’s probably much of an anticlimax. Unfortunately, that’s what we got and a reason why (“We kinda sorta maybe just a little didn’t have time to do something bigger.”)

If we make it far enough to see the next Dragon, I really hope it’s not as ‘lame’ and is much more a fitting climax to the path. Also I hope Trahearne quietly disappears so people can stop complaining about him, thank you.

Shiren.9532:

It’s not the story that engaged people this month, it’s the choice.

And with it, the mystery of which Fractal is going to win, so which part of the playerbase knows to quit playing

Shiren.9532:

lordkrall.7241:

How many books show you the exact connection during the first chapters?

I don’t read a book or watch a TV show for 6+ months before it gets good. That’s what a hook is, it’s something that makes you want to get through the exposition, setting the scene, the background to the big tale beyond. We have been at this Living Story stuff for half a year and it hasn’t gotten good.

I would hope you don’t read a book at all for six months before finishing. Unless it’s “The Stand”, because I don’t know anyone who finished it. Also, most TV shows run for less than six months in a season unless we’re talking syndication; for a lot of series the first season finale has been pegged as “when things get interesting”. So take that as you will . . .

I don’t need it to be like the game where you fight an giant earth elemental, big robot, giant ghost statue, plant dragon or frozen wurm, but within six months I want something compelling. I don’t want to play through a series of seemingly trivial and weakly connected side stories only to have an “Oh kitten!” moment later on when they actually decide to tell the story. It’s a cheap reveal (it’s not “surprising” because it’s clever, but rather because they simply didn’t tell us anything about it) and it makes your actions for several months at the time feel meaningless.

Strangely enough that type of game isn’t unusual in online circles. Pacing issues abound, if any try at all.

They said they wanted Living Story to be like your favourite TV show. I wouldn’t watch a TV show for six months if it all the compelling information was revealed later on. We don’t need all the information, but we need enough to make us want to know more and the inconsistencies (which a lot of players are going to miss) they’ve given us are not enough.

Lost, Fringe, Castle, Sopranos, Doctor Who, Star Trek: Voyager and Deep Space Nine, Babylon 5, Gargoyles, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, and that’s without really straining myself on things I personally have watched in the last twenty years.

Before the more recent years you had largely formless seasons where each show had pretty much its own self-contained story which was only connected to later episodes or earlier ones by the characters. You may, of course, discard the last two if you’re feeling they don’t count. Also, I’m a little fuzzy on shows before the late 1970s which is when I stopped having access to earlier material reliably.

In contrast to those above? Shows like CSI, Law and Order, NYPD Blue, many sitcoms, Person of Interest, the other Star Trek series, and Doctor Who all managed to tell stories which are self-contained but the cast does progress over time and develop. These seem to be what the Living Story feels more like right now – less a single story chopped up into pieces and more several stories with common characters along the way.

If you don’t like that, it’s okay. I absolutely loathe Survivor and its various seasons and imitators. But there are many forms of construction in TV shows and some don’t get interesting in six months of airtime while some don’t develop anything likewise for at least six months. And then there are some which continuously tease mysteries and potential clues to a bigger picture for the first two seasons and then spend the next few trying to solve it to the viewers.

Vayne.8563:

People wanted it to be a boss fight. they call it a boss fight…but it’s really not. You never really directly fight Zhaitan.

That’s where the issue comes in.

Yeah, it’s a problem, but there’s something sillier to witness. This massive force of destruction so powerful it can threaten the world time and time again, so powerful it simply had to be outlasted until it went to sleep before? And one to five mortals with no assistance from anything at all take it down.

I think that would be mocked a lot more than “Press 2 to win”.

I can see it now: “Big, deadly, god-killing dragon . . . goes down from a engineer autoattack.”

Doing it on off-hours increases the chance, but another good way to increase the chance? Some sort of AoE attack to tag the crystals when they form, a spot NOT right near the reset time for the Bonus Chest, and persistence.

It took me a long time to get off 4/5 myself

Tolmos.8395:

Vayne.8563:

You’ve lost all credibility for not being objective.

Pot, meet kettle…

The problem is, none of you can seem properly objective anymore due to all the sniping between people. Sure, at least one of you might actually be trying to be objective, but it doesn’t come off that way half the time. And I know I’m not even properly objective half the time, since I actually like playing the game; this disqualifies me from talking about it objectively, you see. You’re supposed to HATE the game to be objective.

By the way, I’m taking that kettle for some tea tonight, and the pot for some chili. Sorry to inconvenience you.

Zrix.5987:

I don’t feel that people are standing up for the game enough. I mean for £40 ($60) how could you have not said ‘Money well spent’ cause i tell you i have spent well over a month game-time and you can play for just as long without paying a penny more than the cost of the game. Best £40 I’ve ever spent.

I’m looking at it this way . . .

If the servers vanish right now, I’ll be satisfied with the time I did have. If the game goes to complete crap in the next month, I’ll also be satisfied with what I did get out of it and walk away quietly.

I’ve had worse games for more

Galtrix.7369:

A public test server would easily fix some of those bugs.

Could easily fix some of those bugs. Don’t kid yourself, there’s no guarantees in this business other than “there will be bugs” (starring Daniel Day Lewis). But I don’t think it’s worth the headache and/or bellyaching of putting one together which plays separate from the main game servers, if only for a couple reasons.

- No guarantee players on the PTR would not simply document bugs for their own use once things go live and NOT report them to ANet. In short, to manufacture bug abuse.

- A fragment of the players finding it ludicrous time and money is spent on the upkeep of the PTR where by its nature nothing is left permanently with regards to characters. (Any one I ever participated in has the paraphrased rule “we reserve the right to delete all character data at any time” . . .)

- Complaints about how taking part in the PTR doesn’t benefit actual live server play. Because there are people who would complain if they gave out free Gems with every login with no strings attached.

- The PTR would probably not be able to participate in researching bugs related to, say, WvWvW and/or other things where two different servers might be involved.

And lastly . . .

- I don’t know if it would be an efficient and effective use of company resources, given the distinct impression they already are pulled pretty tight as it is.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Note the politeness of people against flipping and the rudeness of those arguing for. It’s very noticeable.

I don’t like to think I’ve been rude, but right about here is where I bow out anyway for being called rude anyway

:)

Have fun with this, but you really should know this isn’t going anywhere by now.

Dante.1508:

Viking Jorun.5413:

The people claiming GW2 was “easy” from day 1 obviously didn’t play at launch. Does nobody remember the CONSTANT whining about how the game was “too hard”, especially exploitable dungeons? Had ArenaNet not nerfed the dungeons to allow more players to access them and decreased the difficulty of DEs, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Was this in Beta? because i was in GW2 from day one it opened and i didn’t see any difference in difficulty compared to today, for me the difficulty hasn’t changed at all since day one.

Still pretty shallow tho, compared to other MMO’s.

It wasn’t in Beta. It was constant in reference to Ascalonian Catacombs, or the Fire Elemental, to name two. It was “common knowledge” that to try taking the Fire Elemental meant repair costs two or three times. And that AC couldn’t be done short of expert runners.

Treeline.3865:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Speaking from experience?

Not really. Just what I imagine, but you might be right

No, I meant I was, so far as having some experience with the mess before.

Mickey.4207:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mickey.4207:

Of all the features brought to us by WOW..i despise nothing more as much as i despise dailies. It is just bad and ridiculous gameplay feature MMO devs need to ignore completely.

WoW didn’t start that, it just made it blatant . . .

If I had to hazard a guess as to something much earlier which had “Daily Quests” I’d begin and end with Animal Crossing.

I played games like UO, Asheron Call, EQ, Anarchy Online before WOW and i never came across this phenomena called ‘dailies’? am i missing something here? what other MMOS used ‘dailies’ as content before WOW?

I didn’t say MMOs, very pointedly.

UO did have “Dailies” though, in so far as unique and unusual items which would spawn at certain points “daily” and you had to be first to them . . . and survive . . . to get them for your house.

Treeline.3865:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They really sound, at least from someone who only had two minor encounters with them, as though they’re completely overtaxed and there’s not enough people helping out.

To be fair, I can understand they have copy-pasted answers ready for them; They must receive many of the same bug reports every day. But when the customer clearly states that the copy-pasted answer does not even answer the questions in the ticket, yet to be greeted by another copy-paste that they’re sorry that there’s nothing more they can do..

Speaking from experience?

. . . that first-level support is probably the worst experience of having to navigate. But if you can get through it to someone higher up, you might just stand a chance at at least getting a reason rather than a canned response. That’s really difficult though, because you have to ride the line of just firm enough without seeming confrontational, and persistent without being pestering.

Still pointing out I’ve never heard of a support division which has “enough people” Especially with the volume of complaints players in an MMO send in daily.

Treeline.3865:

Support in this game is generally not helpful at all. They copy paste, copy paste, never really reading what you write.

They really sound, at least from someone who only had two minor encounters with them, as though they’re completely overtaxed and there’s not enough people helping out.

Of course, support in every game is a thankless job which crushes the souls of those foolish enough to sign up for it. Woe be to those who decide to be volunteer CS reps . . . for they are the ones who are ground under the wheel faster.

SynfulChaot.3169:

So because it’s ‘risky’, they should have no limitations? Despite everyone else having an abundance of limitations/restrictions. Running dungeons isn’t exactly risk-free, you know.

Running dungeons won’t lose you as much as some of these flippers could be spending . . . I mean, unless you REALLY tank that run a lot and make a lot of trips to the anvil.

By the way, OP’s point and the question of whether the flipping should be curtailed somehow is a good one. But I haven’t seen a solution yet which doesn’t punish everyone else also. Keep brainstorming, folks.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Players that just want to play the game itself are constantly being hit with these ‘arbitrary limitations’. Why should TP abusers be immune?

Because it’s the only thing going for that method of making money? It takes a large amount of capital to get started, is rather risky sometimes, and is akin to day trading stocks – it’s not going to be completely stable.

I’m a crappy ranger player and I admit it. My weapon sets are longbow and axe/torch, and I don’t like doing close-up melee as much as mid-range or long-range depending on enemy mobility.

I like to use a wolf and moa, though I certainly only like to use that moa for the screech and to keep it up until the wolf is back. I don’t like bears all that much, though I use one underwater due to not really trusting drakes.

I’ve never been autokicked but I have been told (politely and firmly) that groups don’t want rangers. The only consolation I have is that while I am working a warrior I’m even worse playing it . . . and it still gets invites all the time.

Mickey.4207:

Of all the features brought to us by WOW..i despise nothing more as much as i despise dailies. It is just bad and ridiculous gameplay feature MMO devs need to ignore completely.

WoW didn’t start that, it just made it blatant . . .

If I had to hazard a guess as to something much earlier which had “Daily Quests” I’d begin and end with Animal Crossing.

Tom Gore.4035:

That’s because most of the players who hate the Arena no longer play it after they got the achies. I know I don’t.

I’ll likely play it more than Southsun Survival. But that’s because I’m a dirty Kiel supporter, and I think I could sell the Rucksack for some sweet sweet Ecto. I mean gold.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Chullster.3608:

DrixTrix.7168:

whats wrong with flipping?

There is no “value added” to an item from flipping, just profiting from other players.

If the general consensus is that flipping, speculation and market manipulation are ok from the majority of players then I have my answer. I’m just disappointed in the answer.

Playing the TP makes the most money, I know. I just thought there’d be more people who thought this isn’t right.

Seems I’m wrong.

No. You’re not the only one who feels that the practice is wrong. There are many, many people who think that it is wrong. It’s just that the people who take advantage of the TP are very, very vocal and love trying to browbeat all others into agreeing with them.

It’s not even that. It’s the question of “why prevent players from doing this?” which is there. Preventing this sort of thing could very well come off as an arbitrary limitation, no matter how well it is received. And the more limitations you put on what your players can do, well . . .

And no, I don’t flip. I use the Trading Post to dispose of things I don’t really want but people are willing to pay a few silver over merchant value for. What do I care what they do with them after . . . flip them, break them down for materials, Mystic Forge them, or stick them on an alt to add to a hoarded collection of Tridents . . .

Ahratan.1098:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

An active MMO needs to have something to draw players to want to play even semi-regularly.

I think this game already has some of the best end game content of any MMO I have played. That should be enough of an incentive to play.

‘Log on every day to repeat the same mundane task’ is not fun and threatens to take the game down the same path as other MMOs.

It’s not enough of an incentive when people have run that content over and over and over . . .

Say for a second you love Citadel of Flames, Path 1 for being a challenging, engaging experience worth repeating because it was so fun. (Stop snickering.) How many times would you do it before it got stale, routine, a matter of just repetition . . . how long before you got tired and moved on to something else? And from there, how long before that thing got dull?

That’s what I remember from other MMOs, where the endgame was so good it was almost epic. Killing Quarm once was an accomplishment, an achievement if you will. Killing him 20 times and trying like mad to get a piece of loot off him was what made me throw my account out and go seeking something else. And that’s just the one example which came to mind first.

It’s not just the “log in daily and do this stuff” that contributes to the tedium, it’s repetition of the same things over and over. Even masterpiece theater still can get old if you’ve seen it a hundred times.

Why is nobody asking the more important question . . . ?

Why does that thing have a feminine shape up to and including, er, curves?

Tom Gore.4035:

Aspect Arena was removed from rotation because most of the players plain hate it. Sorry.

I hear less griping during Aspect Arena than I did in Southsun Survival two nights in a row

Chris Starflame.1023:

So it has been hinted at that all of the story so far is going to be linked up somehow. This thread is for speculation on how this is going to happen, how they are going to be related, and how the hell it is connected to the Elder Dragons. (Because it has been hinted that it might).

Rox and Braham go visit the Super Adventure Box and it turns out Moto has been using a minion of Kralkatorrik to power it, which gets loose in Rata Sum until the Aetherblades steal the Box and sell it to the Consortium, who then pay the Aetherblades in turn to seize the Zephyr Sanctum and drive it to Cantha.

milo.6942:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

We’re saying GW1 had difficulty?

no
we’re talking about gameplay depth

Ahhh. Not difficulty.

I still didn’t find it deep. Or rather, diving into the depth wasn’t as rewarding as the known and charted territory. But that’s all right, because I found the majority I met didn’t do that pioneering themselves – they let someone else tell them what to use as a build and give advice for how to run it.

I’d say League of Legends is probably a better measure of depth, except I hate that game.