Guild Wars 2

Mungrul.9358:

People fond of Rurik probably didn’t play the Ascalon missions with him in Beta, where he would run ahead into massive groups of mobs, and you were supposed to be keeping him alive.

Nolani Academy, Hard Mode.

Yeah I don’t like Rurik all that much.

Astralporing.1957:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Astralporing.1957:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well, have you met Logan and Rytlock yet?

On a more serious note, it’s been said the races are not cross-fertile, so probably nothing more serious than “like family” except maybe in the case of sylvari. Remember, they’re all about new experiences and trying things out to build the Dream.

They are also infertile within species, so neither race nor gender should make any difference for them.

Well, yes, the sylvari are a special case if you’re talking reproduction. They’re just plain weird like that. Which, probably, is why they tend to be wooden when it comes to emotional scenes that I’ve seen them in. (Pun totally unintended. Cross my heart and hope someone else dies.)

I’d say at least some of it comes from them being children (dream can impart knowledge, but i don’t think it can be a substitute for emotional maturity), that are imitating emotions stolen from other races.
It may be a little bit different with still-living firstborn, though, seing as they are older and might have developed some emotions of their own.

If Caithe and Trahearne are any examples . . . seems they’re still kind of struggling with that whole “complex emotion” thing. And the Nightmare Court doesn’t seem to get it either.

Astralporing.1957:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well, have you met Logan and Rytlock yet?

On a more serious note, it’s been said the races are not cross-fertile, so probably nothing more serious than “like family” except maybe in the case of sylvari. Remember, they’re all about new experiences and trying things out to build the Dream.

They are also infertile within species, so neither race nor gender should make any difference for them.

Well, yes, the sylvari are a special case if you’re talking reproduction. They’re just plain weird like that. Which, probably, is why they tend to be wooden when it comes to emotional scenes that I’ve seen them in. (Pun totally unintended. Cross my heart and hope someone else dies.)

Well, have you met Logan and Rytlock yet?

On a more serious note, it’s been said the races are not cross-fertile, so probably nothing more serious than “like family” except maybe in the case of sylvari. Remember, they’re all about new experiences and trying things out to build the Dream. Though true love is probably beyond their grasp.

Heijincks.9267:

“No grind” is pretty much impossible in any MMORPG. As long as rare items exist, then there will be grind one way or another. Also, additionally bolded for context. Ascended isn’t that “legendary” gear that puts one above everyone else.

Actually, I believe it’s impossible because what one person calls a grind, someone else thinks is reasonable. So . . . no, you’re not going to see grind go away short of FPS games, and even they’re getting grind these days according to some.

By the way, I find dodging easier if I find a Raptor or Moa type critter and dodge their breath/scream attack. Actually, getting two helps a lot. I’ve actually taken it as a challenge to find different types of mobs and find the “dodge windows” for different kinds of attacks.

. . . look, I played Monster Hunter, this is a learned behavior on my part.

Red Falcon.8257:

Dailies are traditional MMO fetch quests.
I always adapted to changes until this one, because it goes straight against the fundament of GW2.
Kill ten rats and other 0/10 fetching should just stay out of GW2.

. . . I feel compelled to point out it was always in GW2, just hidden behind obfuscation with the Renown hearts and Dynamic Events where you’re supposed to gather ground spawns or specific drops to fill a bar. The only difference with DEs is that everyone is contributing, so as long as you just do one you can technically leave it alone and others will finish it.

mrstealth.6701:

Rather than start a new thread, I’ll put this here since it’s very much related.

Had an interesting run-in with someone (level 80) trying to get the healer/res daily on the Seraph NPCs near the garrison in Queensdale. Unfortunately for this person, the centaur that kill them are the main source of completing that area’s reknown heart. I saw the person ask another player not to kill them once, but they continued, probably confused as to why someone was telling him to not complete his heart objective. After that, the person wanting the Seraph to die started calling that player, and anyone else killing centaur in the spot they had “claimed” for their ressurecting zone, a troll. I continued my heart completion as I normally would have, and hung around for a minute afterward helping the other players this person was berating.

I guess at that point, I was trolling a little(I was done, but still in the area), but this fool calling anyone killing “their” centuar a troll was just inexcusable. I even took the time to point out a location where several NPC spawn (and respawn quickly) already dead. They had the gold map completion star, so I know they could easily go there. But they claimed there were “trolls there as well”. I’m not really sure how that works with NPCs that spawn as dead and ready for a res. Ended up with me being ignored, even after attempting to direct the person to a much more suitable area. Oh well, they stopped berating all the low levels there and left, plus I got a laugh out of it.

Moral of the story…some of the new daily goals are really bringing out the worst in people. I’m not blaming the game/Anet in any way, but it’s sad when it becomes necessary to design content around some players’ need to be jerks and berate others for simply playing a game in the intended fashion.

It’s a social problem. It also went on before, when people would try to see how far they could take soloing and berating people for jumping in on “their champion”. The new goals just offer more excuses for people to go off on others.

An alternative or three to this situation for the person who felt it important to drop what they were trying to do to make drama:

- Offer other options, each Renown heart has more than one way to work on it, and while I don’t know which one this is talking about there are likely other ways of handling this.

- Help the other player complete his Renown heart, so he can move on.

- Go to another spot if time is of the essence.

- Wait for Nebo Terrace to come under attack, and help up the guards at the gates. They’re always going down and if there’s less than three players than you can probably expect to do the 10 revives you need.

Revolution.6301:

Okay now not only are you defying logic but you’ve comitted a logical fallacy.

Want to know which?
Its when you said “look at her!, you can’t blame me! She’s worse!” fallacy.

Honestly saying ALL mmo forums are illogical is also hasty generalization too.

You’ve committed 2 different types of logical fallacies (probably more if I carefully read it).

Honestly I don’t need to defend my view if you won’t follow basic logic in yours and since it is not logical this only proves my view that grind is hurting the players that this game advertised for more.

. . . I’m sorry, what is the point of being logical? I’m not going to convince anyone no matter how much I drag myself to the whiteboard and start working it out, or how long I talk. I could construct an argument and a long statement I like but really all I’ll see in return is: “You’re just a fanboy/apologist who loves grind” which doesn’t inspire me to try making much sense. And the fact you admitted you just skimmed the post sums up exactly WHY I don’t want to bother trying to be more exact and careful – you left doubts that you would have paid attention even if I had.

Also, you focused on the first sentence which was sarcasm, and ignored the rest. I didn’t really use “look at X, X is worse than Y so you can’t claim Y is…” except by comparison. Which is all anyone does to make their case, since “grind” is such a freaking subjective thing. One person’s “grind” is another’s “I’ll do this task and then be done”. Look at the myriad threads around here, there are people who basically go “what grind?” because they don’t feel it’s a grind.

So, let’s dip back into logic for a bit. You cannot . . . rather, should not make categorical definitions (“It’s all a grind, and this is fact”) about subjective responses. This is not arguing which is a higher number, or whether that color is a shade of blue or a shade of yellow. Making categorical definitions leaves faults in an argument people can pick at, even if you feel they’re on target, because they’re not agreeing with your subjective opinion of what is or is not a grind.

The talk about whether something is “a grind” or a “gear treadmill” is rooted in two different problems: one is a subjective definition, one is an extrapolation based on ignorance of the future. (It may be well-reasoned due to personal experience or it may have history suggesting it would follow, but predictions are always a little . . . left to chance.) You can’t reliably predict there’s going to be a gear treadmill following Ascended, because you don’t know what’s going to happen. Even if it had been planned, they can scrap the plan and do something else. That’s the problem with arguing from ignorance, with regards to the future -you just can’t tell what’s going to happen until it actually happens.

As for “grind” . . . unless you define “grind” specifically, you’re not going to be able to get anyone to discuss it properly. Furthermore, there’s no guarantee your idea of a “grind” meets what someone else’s is. Currently the generally-agreed definition of “grind” is “repetitive work I don’t want to do but feel obligated to for some reason”. Highly subjective, and if you try to pin it down (“doing X more than once per day”) you run into elusiveness and weaseling out of it (“Okay, I’ll not do X more than once per day, I’ll do X then Y instead. No more grind.”) . . . primarily because people think the definition is unreasonable.

I also refute your assertion that grind is harmful, without qualification., and on a vague definition of grind. Grind isn’t harmful. Excessive grinding is.

EasymodeX.4062:

Don’t take this the wrong way, but you are an example of why it’s important to distinguish “diminishing returns” from diminishing marginal returns when discussing mechanics details. Random audiences can get the wrong impression if they’re thrown around haphazardly.

I won’t take it the wrong way . . . I’m not too big on delving into the deep mechanics and number-crunching. I can if I want to, but it just doesn’t interest me in many games.

EasymodeX.4062:

20 + 2 = 10% increase.
200 + 2 = 1% increase.
2000 + 2 =.1% increase.
Diminishing returns.

That is diminishing marginal returns. E.g. the diminishing comparative value of increasing a big stat by a small amount. This is an economics concept.

The phrase “diminishing returns” refers to hard formulas that directly grant less numeric result from increasing stats. E.g. some logarithmic type function for precision -> crit%. In this game, the conversion is linear. No direct diminishing return. QED.

Except I recall it being said that the conversion is not linear to effect. The example was: you can pump all your points into Precision but after a point it takes much more points to achieve an increase in chances to critical on a hit.

Flat % adjustments notwithstanding, raw stats (Power, Vitality, Condition Damage . . .) have a factor of diminishing returns in place, as far as I am aware this hasn’t been proven wrong. While putting a focus of points on Power does make your damage rise, shaving some out of that to devote to Vitality will get you a bigger boost overall.

Again, if we’re not talking the base stats, I can perhaps concede that it’s linear. For base stats, it’s been stated there’s diminishing returns.

As for my favorite segments?
- Unexpected Visitors
- Fall of Falcon Company
- Chain of Command

In order of enjoyment That top one is just completely, plainly fun.

Revolution.6301:

This story lacks everything that made Gw1 story great. Everything, I mean when Rurik dies everyone who played was like NO NO RURIK!! And then when you fight him as a ghost you just feel so sorry for him. This game I wished every character would just combust on the spot.

Would make for an interesting you think?

No, everyone was not “NO! NO Rurik!” A lot of folks went: “Pfft, finally I get to stop carrying his Prince Leroy crap.” There were people who laughed a lot when you got to the final mission right before the Lich and got to slap around his undead form.

Then there’s Kormir, and let’s not delve into what people think of her.

Really, GW1’s story had just as much that people really hated as GW2 and in a lot of the same ways.

Mackdose.6504:

EasymodeX.4062:

kenshinakh.3672:

Clearly you’re off somewhere, and if you’re going to pick out the 33% from the critical damage… I’m going to laugh and say “Well, now if I had 1% critical damage, and it increased to 3%, is that a 300% increase? Of course! But it’s not going to matter for things on such a low scale in the first place!”

And then when the rest of the ascended gear is released and someone crits you for 16k instead of 14k …

It’s too late.

Sidenote:

Whoops, I added the power on the ruby orichalcum incorrectly. Still, doesn’t make much of a difference. If you want to get really picky (which you apparently do):

http://www.gw2db.com/items/71376-crystalline-band-infused
http://www.gw2db.com/items/71391-bagh-nakh-infused
http://www.gw2db.com/items/71379-red-ring-of-death-infused

That’s still +13% on the power, 9.5% on the secondary, and 33% on the crit damage.

150% is base crit damage. So while it may be 33% number increase from one ring to the next one up, when you include base stats (which everyone likes to forget) the increase is much lower.

33% higher stat != 33% more effectiveness.

I thought this was well-known that after a point the statistics achieved a point of diminishing returns too, to where you’d need more in a stat to get a higher bonus.

Calcifire.1864:

(eg, my charr necro being terrified at the thought of defacing a statue of grenth to get a way of controlling shadows, he should have told sieran to wait up and come back with a chainsaw or something, that’s the sort of stuff he’d be all over)

Honestly, this is my major gripe with the personal storyline. It’s very well done for the first two chapters so far:

I haven’t really dug into the asura or sylvari . . . I only have so much time, after all.

But after Tobias completed the second chapter, the story moved towards the trouble with Risen. After that, anything which happened before he joined one of the orders seemed to disappear. I know why – it’s far easier to handle the dialogue if you standardize it. As a human from Kryta, though, there’s not much in the first two which would connect to the later bits . . . most of the events take place away from the small pool of people who know “the Hero of Shaemoor”.

Ishiga.6053:

Avatar.1923:

grenth, grenth…
everybody answers “grenth” to counter talks about midless zergfest.

i need to go take a look over there.. see if there is hope for open world content to be rewarding gameplay.

I only have one thing to say about him.

He’ll spike you like a football, literally.

I’m too much of a ragegamer to deal with that kind of cheap kitten.

It wouldn’t be as bad if you could get enough people there who knew how to handle him. I’ve been present for a group of no more than 15 people getting him to 20% before someone got sloppy and it domino’d to a wipe. (That someone was me. I ran my endurance too low to dodge out of a circle.)

Revolution.6301:

silvermember.8941:

Revolution.6301:

Mackdose.6504:

Algreg.3629:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Not really, as soon as I hit lvl80 on a new alt, I can use all the jugs and drops of karma to spend it on exotics or just buy it with the tokens I got from dungeons. Since I have my legendary, I don’t play THAT much. Maybe 2 hours a day. Maybe 6-7 dungeon runs in a week. It is EASILY I really mean EASILY achievable to get exotic gear. I never, ever, EVER understand people complaining about gear treadmill. The few ascended items are easy to get. If you have problems, shut up and go play your casual mobile game.

Edit: You need a bit effort to achieve something, if not, games like MMOs (and honestl,y most PC and console games I played) are nothihng for you. I really can’t stand the whining anymore, it is just ridiculous.

one might say applying the attribute “only” to devoting almost 2 full work days a week to GW2 while implying that it must have been a lot more before aquiring casually mentioned 2 legendaries doesn´t make you really the go-to-guy regarding the judgement of in game timeframes. Do not misunderstand me, your playing habits are your thing and totally fine by me, I devote a lot of time to games myself, but that is hardly a reasonable perspective you have.

Speaking of perspective, why were people in rares never complaining about the vertical progression of exotics? It’s the same percentage of stat increase, same relative amount of time to acquire (remember that dungeons didn’t always give 180 tokens a day,) as ascended is now.

There were complaints about how long it took to get exotics at first, but nothing about the inherent statistical advantage exotics gave over rare-equipped or downscaled players.

Where was the outcry from WvW players? Where was the outcry from so-called casuals?

You clearly see the issue at hand thanks!

Exotics are an armor piece that people even if you only have an hour a day to play can eventually seeing getting. It will take a bit but they can see that mountain getting closer and closer.

Ascended feels like an impossibility. Instead of only having to reach 1 mountain you are ask to go to 25 different ones with Not help at all, hence you have to climb up 1, down it and rinse and repeat.

Just from doing my dailies and monthly I am aboot to get my ascended amulet w/o going out of my way. So what is your point?

Not everyone has time for dailies and monthly. So if they only have 1 hour (and I know you’ll counter and say thats so much time for a daily! but those of us who don’t know the quickest way (most) to do it it isn’t) 1 hour is not enough.

Go through it logically before you post.

Logic? In an MMO forum? Really now, you’re asking far too much.

The dailies even before revision could be done in less than an hour if you were crunched for time by going to a starting zone. After the revision . . . they can be done in less than an hour in a starting zone. There’s people who gladly offer advice on these forums, or on Reddit, or in game if you ask nicely. (Granted, there’s people who don’t answer nicely or who laugh, but hey, we’ve got the rude folk like every other game ever.) “I don’t know how to get it done fast” is less of a reason and more of an excuse.

Monthlies are different, and require actual effort; I still haven’t hit my Monthly Dungeon quota. Mostly because I’m not actively working on it yet, but I still have a week and a half to go. I can probably find something over the next two weekends.

Ascended used to be “out there” because you had to do Fractals and get lucky with the RNG. Now it’s not, because you can just do some time-budgeting or have patience to earn the Rings and/or Amulet. This is a step forward towards people having Ascended more easily, not a step away.

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Would you watch one of those movies for 1500 hours?

Let’s be fair, some people have watched certain movies for that long over the course of their lives. These are the people who can quote the whole of “Monty Python and the Search For the Holy Grail” from beginning to end, or the people who can get on stage and do Rocky Horror. Or the people who can sit down and deconstruct movies like Inception, Star Trek 2, Star Wars, et cetera.

If I counted the number of times I’ve watched “Ghostbusters” and multiplied by the running time, I think I’d be halfway to 1500.

(steps into character)

Do I feel like a hero? I don’t think so. Tobias’ ancestor was a hero. He walked up the Shiverpeak mountains to get to Kryta from Ascalon. In the snow, with dwarves beating on him all the time with their big hammers and dolyaks . . . and then he turned around and went back because he forgot his wallet. In the snow, with the dwarves and that joyous stuff, a second time.

Then he cut a bloody swath through Cantha because someone told him Mhenlo was prettier than he was. And some moron named Shinra, Shora . . . something like that was causing trouble. Something about neverending torment and immortality, I dunno, I didn’t listen that closely. End of the story, he whapped Mhenlo in the back of the head with his bow and went home.

THEN there was this crazy Istani lady who came begging for heroes, and he happened to have some free time. So Tobias Trueflight, the First of His Name, decided he needed to make Gandara his winter vacation spot. It was totally not his fault demons got involved, and because they messed up his plans he went to the Realm of Torment and came back saying “that’ll teach them”.

What do I do? I keep chasing those freaking glue-to-be Harathi away from Nebo Terrace, hear how pretty Logan’s hair is, and that there’s this place called Orr which is a mess and I’m supposed to go help them clean it? Good luck with that, I’m off to Hoelbrak for keg brawling.

I prefer the skritt to the quaagan. As much as they’re pests, there’s something endearing about them.

Also, they totally trolled some asura studying them and took over a lab once. That was fun.

Dark Jackson.3417:

I see that you guys keep de-railing again. I Play 2 to 3 hours before to go work and at least 4 hours after dinner. Be realist. Not 8 Consecutive hours. I Also take a break every single hour. I’ve also based my statement (Anet Forwarding on new content ) from http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Upcoming_changes_and_features

I’m not trying to derail the thread. Though, mind you, it’s really hard to stay on topic when discussing this goodbye.

I play, maybe, 2 hours a day on average. Some days I don’t play. Some days I play 1 hour in the morning and one in the evening after daily reset. I more than made up for it by playing a lot for the first three months. I also probably will play a bit more than that on the weekends, because I can.

I don’t see exactly what the problem with playing at those hours, because I get plenty enough done for what I want to do. Get my Dailies finished, grab some Fine materials and work on some crafting. Play around with some of the other races I built so I can see what their stories turn out like (for the first three chapters anyway) and how I like them . . . maybe I’ll pop into WvW and mess around for a bit.

Really, the issue is that people can get bored with the game in general. Heck, people can get bored with Skyrim . . . as awesome as that game may be. I wouldn’t know, I don’t own it and can’t play it if I did. There’s nothing wrong with needing a break.

Syeria.4812:

As someone alluded to earlier, the “bugs” complaint is likely a cop-out. After 1500 hours of gameplay, sometimes things just aren’t entertaining anymore. A lot of times with this type of game, a person stops enjoying it, but keeps playing anyway. They need an excuse, just some sort of reason why they can stop playing because playing has become a habit and done out of routine instead of enjoyment. That’s okay. That’s natural.

I suspect your friends quit because they weren’t having fun anymore, and not because of “bugs” or other reasons listed. The reality is that sometimes, even in an MMO, you reach the end. You get to that point where there’s nothing left that you want to do. I know that happened to me with the original GW, probably at least 3 times actually. But that’s the nice thing here, they can always come back later when there’s new content to enjoy, or they’re just not so burned out on experiencing the current content. It’s always sad to see quality people go, but sometimes that’s life.

I present the opinion it was not entirely a cop-out, just they were getting tired of playing and the bugs were the minor irritant that made them decide to put the game away. Everyone gets tired of a game, that’s to be expected. Even single-player games with dozens of mods/conversions can become stale over time, and you just kind of . . . lose interest.

The thing is, that’s absolutely okay. If you just need a break from the game, we’ll leave a light on for you.

ThiBash.5634:

Sieran’s a leftover relic back from the day where Sylvari didn’t start out perfect, but actually had some difficulty understanding things like emotions, responsability and feelings.

Back when they were first introduced, they weren’t supposed to be the Mary Sues they are today.

. . . they’re Mary Sues? I thought the Player Character is a Mary Sue. Meets all the hallmarks closest.

Vayne.8563:

Bugs are a fact of MMOs. Even five year old MMOs have them. A six month MMO is generally going to be swimming in them.

I’ll correct this statement:

“Bugs are a fact of gaming period.”

And if you thought that pre-broadband eras had games with less bugs being released? I have some prime real estate in Kryta to sell you.

Personally, I think some of the uniquely named Exotics look better than Legendary. I also really really like the skin on the Lionguard Axe.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Hence that event is considered bugged by some, but not by others. Technically speaking, even if it bugs 1 in 1 million times, it is still a bugged event.

Here’s a few things about that 1 bug per million times:

- Report it. It may be likely if it’s that uncommon that it bugs, nobody knows about it. Report it every time you encounter it. Not reporting it and complaining it didn’t get fixed is so very unhelpful.

- If it’s not directly able to be reproduced 100% of the time, it’s harder to track down what’s “broken”. This means it can take longer.

- If you define a “bugged” event as something that bugs up 1 time per million, every single part of the game is “bugged”.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

It is true, these are MINOR bugs, very minor, very annoying bugs. However, even little details count towards your gaming (bad) experience. When you spent 900 hours over something that just vanishes in thin air(see hundreds of threads about the “science of 1500 rares for a precursor thread with no precursor obtained” out there, whether it lost/bugged/broken because of a bug or RNG, you did spend the time, but it is now time to give up.

I posted this before, but here goes:

I’m not sure what contributes more to my negative experience with Guild Wars 2. The part of community which seems to think I must be wrong in the head to enjoy playing the game, or the ones who tell me more-or-less to my face I shouldn’t be having fun.

I can get past the bugs, I can get past the glitches, because if it really bugs me I can put the game down and walk away for a couple days. Weeks. Months if need be. I’m not paying for it, it’s just like three of the other games I play; I paid a price for the software, and I can either play it or not as I choose.

And, being completely honest, I got bigger things to worry about in my life than anything going on in Guild Wars 2. Anything.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Curuniel.4830:

Side note: looking at the Wizard’s Folly Tower now in the link above, the base actually looks like the jotun standing stone type things you can find in norn lands. Which is odd? It would make sense for jotun architecture to have once been more complex, but I don’t know if the stones we see in GW2 were always intended to be standing stones (fits with an astronomical alignment thing) or are the remnants of another style. Anyway, idle speculation!

[Edit]: Looking at it some more, the greenish-metallic parts higher up do resemble Dwarnven structure a lot, and the combination of that material plus the chains reminds me of things like the Frost Gate. So Dwarven or Dwarven built atop jotun..?

Interesting observations, but I can’t see a connection between that tower and jotun. For a few reasons: Firstly, jotun monuments are a single stone per side – that tower is, like any Ascalonian structure, just a lot of large blocks. Secondly, there’s none of those circle designs that all jotun monuments holds. Thirdly, and most importantly, jotun weren’t even a figment in the developers’ mind when that was made.

The style of the tower is fairly Ascalonian, I think.

Actually it half brings into mind Krytan ruins you can see in background images on Watchtower Coast. Therefore could it be an ancient structure left standing from the age of King Doric?

Turtle Dragon.9241:

. . . or care to reward you for actually getting Sunrise. When people feel ignored, they move away.

Wouldn’t the reward for getting Sunrise be actually having Sunrise? The achievements don’t matter since nobody else can see them anyway. Except for the small handful which bestow titles, but most people are running around with Hall of Monuments titles that I see.

Heretic.4915:

Also, great insight pointing out that this is not WoW. Amazing observation. WoW being the king of MMOs set the precedent for nearly every MMO that has come after. They are the example that other developers follow for many things, including gameplay, interface, and player desires. The point seems lost on you as to why a new MMO would follow the example of the industry leader, and this is not only evident in gaming but all aspects of business an marketing, so I’m not going to spend time trying to educate you. But should you wish to discredit your own opinions less and start making actual contributions to discussion in the future, consider your handle on the facts before you start lecturing. It will be a lot less embarrassing in the long run.

WoW is the king of MMOs for several reasons, all of which have been adequately determined:

- It offered a fairly tame set of system requirements. Furthermore, it was an MMO for those who owned Macs to play. These things lead to the game being more accessible and thus more people can play it if they choose.

- It came at an opportune time. EverQuest was winding down and there really wasn’t a good successor coming into the market.

- It took everything the previous “big fish” (EverQuest) did and tweaked it. EverQuest had a lot of things implemented in it, but they just weren’t as well-executed as WoW did later.

- Currently, there are so many people playing it (for whatever reason) that people who play other games eventually go back because “all my friends are there”. This is perhaps one of the most powerful reasons it has stayed the king.

The problem is a lot of failed MMOs have been started primarily to compete with WoW without actually offering enough to draw the masses away. GW1 succeeded because it was never intended to “kill World of Warcraft”, it was its own game and its own style.

(Sarcasm on.)

Of course, Guild Wars 2 is a blatant clone of World of Warcraft, all the way down to the orcs . . . I mean charr . . . and the night elves . . . I mean, sylvari. Heck we even have Illidan, I mean Trehearne. And we even have a limitless amount of raid content available for you to seek out the most prestigious gear which drops 0.04% of the time.

(Sarcasm off)

Now, as to the question presented in the title – Ascended armor isn’t in the game yet. Right now we have Accessories (back), Rings, and Amulets. They’re stronger due to the scaling-up of the Fractals by the time Agony shows up (which is the primary reason to be wearing Ascended gear even before stats)., so it’s meant to be what you use to do your Fractal work.

. . . and show of hands, if Ascended Gear only had the statistic boost while in Fractals and everywhere else it had Exotic stats, who’d still be complaining?

Cazio.2137:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Cazio.2137:

I am starting to wonder what this game actually is about.

What’s there to wonder about? There’s a world out there, which you can play in and do stuff as you like. You can make friends and go do things, dungeons, Fractals, Dynamic Event chains, map completions, stupid silly roleplaying in Lion’s Arch . . .

Or you can hop into WvW and play that.

Or you can move to PvP, challenge yourself doing well there.

This game is “about” stuff as clearly as any other MMO out there currently. Even GW1 had “what’s this game about?” even when it had seven significant storylines going on (of varying lengths).

What is the point of anything you named if you can not further develop your character while doing so?

What’s the point of doing ANYthing, period? To entertain yourself and take your mind off how much grind and unfair loot tables exists in real life. It’s the point of playing games, going to the movies, having a girlfriend (or boyfriend), owning a pet . . .

Really, what answer are you fishing for here?

Bloodstealer.5978:

ANET or any game developer will never win either way. – -Devil if they do, Devil if they dont!!

I’ll leave this relevant XKCD strip here:

http://xkcd.com/1172/

This pretty much sums up everything about doing games, software, or anything. There’s just no pleasing 100% of the people 100% of the time.

Cazio.2137:

I am starting to wonder what this game actually is about.

What’s there to wonder about? There’s a world out there, which you can play in and do stuff as you like. You can make friends and go do things, dungeons, Fractals, Dynamic Event chains, map completions, stupid silly roleplaying in Lion’s Arch . . .

Or you can hop into WvW and play that.

Or you can move to PvP, challenge yourself doing well there.

This game is “about” stuff as clearly as any other MMO out there currently. Even GW1 had “what’s this game about?” even when it had seven significant storylines going on (of varying lengths).

I think it’s when skill points, or events get stuck, hence “it’s too buggy”. And yes, it happens more often than . . . say, never, so Murphy’s Law states the instant you want/need to do it . . . it’s going to glitch on you.

I still thing the part that makes me want to play less is knowing that no matter what I do:

- There’s no respect to be gained for doing anything, or being helpful.
- No matter what you play, you’re either “doing it wrong” or “you’re just a cookie cutter X”.
- If I find something cool or rare, it’s automatically assumed I bought instead of earned it.
- The guilty feeling I get for enjoying playing the game, when I’m clearly not supposed to enjoy it.

In short, I’d be having a blast if it weren’t for people.

Czar Peter.7961:

Apologies for not making my point more explicit, thus leaving too much room for strawmen. According to Tobias Truelight, a system where some players have ascended items and many don’t is not a problem, because a highly skilled player with low level items can still beat an average player with ascended items. This kind of logic is commonly used to defend games where players can purchase in-game advantages for cash, because a highly skilled player can still win without paying cash. The parallel with GW2 in this case, is that ascended items take too long and are too boring for many players to obtain, leading to a subset of players with them and another subset without, like in P2W.

It’s not that it’s not a problem. It is, there is a definite imbalance in stats, which . . . frankly, I’m not going to try to pretend isn’t there. The stats will be higher on one side than the other, that is an actual fact.

The problems come in several forms, and all of them can be found in the community. The community is right now, and has been since November, spinning the problem from something which could have been minor into something which is so game-breakingly bad it needs to be removed. There’s no middle ground allowed. Either it’s so horribly bad that it has to go, or you must be okay with a gear treadmill, or must be one of the rich ones “flipping Precursors”, or secretly Trahearne.

I dunno, once more I’m looking at the forums and going: “what’s the point in playing?” It’s not because of Ascended, overpriced Precursors, or Trahearne. It’s because it seems nobody thinks the game is any fun, and the people who ARE having fun are idiots.

You’re also forgetting having a Legendary can also mark you as a target for people to try to hack your account. After all, if you have that much to blow on a precursor . . . you got to have more they can strip out.

That’s the primary reason I resist thinking about it. I don’t feel like painting a big bulls-eye on my back.

Czar Peter.7961:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Revolution.6301:

still ascended have an advantage.

Really Anet should make ascended sellable on the tp, and make them as easy to get as exotics. Problem solved.

Have ascended ONLY in dailies and fotm makes anyone who does not have 2 hours at once to blow annoyed.

The “Ascended Group” only have an advantage The advantage goes to whomever can use what they got the best. That may be the “Ascended Group” or it could be the “Exotic Group”. I’d be willing to put money down that a group kitted out in 100% Ascended randomly chosen from one server would NOT be able to beat a group of the top WvW players in MASTERWORK gear.

The same logic can be used to defend any pay-to-win scheme (as long as you can’t literally pay to win outright).

Any logic can be used to justify any point anyone could ever make. You can rationalize anything, but once proof hits the table . . .

. . . but more to the point, when the heck did Ascended vs Exotic turn into “pay to win”?

Revolution.6301:

still ascended have an advantage.

Really Anet should make ascended sellable on the tp, and make them as easy to get as exotics. Problem solved.

Have ascended ONLY in dailies and fotm makes anyone who does not have 2 hours at once to blow annoyed.

The “Ascended Group” only have an advantage The advantage goes to whomever can use what they got the best. That may be the “Ascended Group” or it could be the “Exotic Group”. I’d be willing to put money down that a group kitted out in 100% Ascended randomly chosen from one server would NOT be able to beat a group of the top WvW players in MASTERWORK gear.

A system using RNG to determine outcomes resembles pure chaotic chance close enough that it will find its way into games to extend play, not just in hopes of getting prizes, but in a myriad other ways.

RNG-determined loot will prevent people from getting everything they want immediately, which prolongs play. This is a good thing and a bad thing. If everyone could do a predetermined path and get what they wanted . . . and they can’t find the next goal they want to do, they will stop playing. Everything after that falls into “grind” territory for them, since they’re just repeating things for the sake of doing it. They stop playing because the game has nothing left for them. And RNG-determined loot is bad because of what’s being seen here – you could go 7 years without seeing a specific drop (I never got my darn Bone Dragon mini in GW1 even mining two accounts worth of prizes; mine and my brother’s.) or you could see that drop every time for seven years and nothing else. It’s randomized, so anything is theoretically possible.

RNG-determined damage/hits are also good or bad. Just look at your average tabletop game either from a board game like Monopoly or Risk . . . or a role-playing game like Dungeons and Dragons or GURPS. Inevitably, you’re going to find that one guy who loves playing the games, but can’t win or be any “good” because his dice results just stink. The fun, though, usually lies in the other people around the table rather than the game itself.

(Lesson to be learned there? Not while we’re talking about RNG, get to the back of the class and see me after.)

RNG-based success/failure? Heartbreaking because it can be so terribly bad when you have all the things leading up to that final RNG check and fail . . . and now you start all over again. This is represented in how tradeskills worked in MMOs for a long time – put in your components, hit combine and hope you succeeded.

I dunno if I really want RNGs to disappear entirely, because in some cases they make for great stories to tell later. (See any gaming store and the tales of Epic Botches.) I’d like them to be tempered or weighted in some fashion that when you “lose” you are never entirely a loser.

critickitten.1498:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Look, even if you make a Legendary acquisition “skill based”, what’s going to happen is the same as if it were a scavenger hunt or a quest you could “look up the FAQ for”. People are going to look up what they need to do and do it until they get it. Ninety percent of them won’t even really let the lessons stick with them, they’ll just do it until chance makes it happen.

Again, it’s just repetition until you get it which . . . is what we have now.

So you admit that, at its absolute worst, a skill-based model is at least equal to the current model.

Considering that at its best, it produces a far superior game world, I’d probably be the sort of developer who would go ahead and do it, if the absolute worst I could do is make something that’s equal to the current model, which so many people have complained about. But that’s just me.

I admit it is a possibility and the pessimist side of me has seen it happen time and time again that you don’t need to be skilled to complete a challenge. You can substitute skill for naked, stupid, idiotic luck and still make it through. But let’s examine the situation a bit more. . .

At it’s best, a skill-based world will cause people to actually master the mechanics you put in front of them. Everyone will rise to the level of their competence and no further, and the people who aren’t in the top “tier” will become frustrated at not being able to get any further and quit. The top tier won’t be enough players to sustain the complexity of the game and it will dissolve into the same people all the time with very little “churn” moving people up or down the skill ladder. Newcomers are quickly able to notice that the people who have the skill are much . . . much . . . better off and get discouraged from trying because it’s apparent they won’t ever be that good and that the veterans will be simply better. This is somewhat of what happened with Ultima Online with PvP – only the most skillful survived and anyone who couldn’t survive quit.

At the worst of a skill-based world, the game begins simple enough but quickly becomes impenetrable and requires loads and loads of time to master even what the designer thinks is the simplest building block for the game. I call this the Dwarf Fortress design. There will be a hardcore set of people who are happy with the way the game weeds out “inferior players” through the repeated frustration of losing, but these players will not mind it at all and will continue to play the game hoping to do just a little better in each iteration.

Yes, this is pessimistic, but I’ve seen it happen before, and I actually quit Ultima Online due to that sort of PvP arrangement. Add in that game also had no gear treadmill, and no actual endgame beyond PvP, and that would be among the reason it is remembered fondly by many and remembered lukewarm at best by many others.

. . . then there’s the Monster Hunter series, a game which highly rewards skillful play but mixed it with the most gods-be-crazy RNG you could find. No, this is worse than Precursor hunting, and if you think Ascended gear was a treadmill? Oh lord . . . you would hate the equipment system in place. But on the plus side, you could literally take on fights naked with some of the worst weapons you could make and win based purely on skill.

Now, both aren’t bad games/series. But they don’t exactly draw a lot of players either, due to the skill-based play. Someone mentioned upthread about Devil May Cry; I quit the third game after actually shattering a controller over knowing how to pull off moves and a fight and being completely unable to do so. As much as I can admire a game which is basically “you must be this good to see the ending”, I stopped playing or buying them because . . .

. . . well because I want to see the freaking ending somewhere other than YouTue!

I’m okay with RMT in the way it’s done here and in other free games I play. Where you can play well enough without it, and spending the premium currency while an attractive option, isn’t absolutely necessary. (And of course, in a couple games there is an option to do things to earn that currency or the rewards purchased with it without actually shelling out cash.) If you do pay for stuff, then you support the people developing the game for having a nice game. Or you can not do it, and play it just as well.

I’ll name drop “Battle Nations” on iOS/Mac which is a combination city-management and turn based strategy game. The premium currency can be used to buy extra-efficient resource gathering, purchase marginally more powerful units, and in general skip over the waiting for things to complete.

Heck I’ll name drop another game I remember from way way when I was in high school: “Legend of the Green Dragon”. I think it’s still running.

thisolderhead.5127:

I’m going to go one further here too – DR (in part) also punishes players for being cheap and attempting to grind their way around chipping in a few bucks for the upkeep of game.

Or it’s meant to do exactly what they said – to get people to not just farm one area over and over and over and get them to change zones.

DarcShriek.5829:

Gambling is not unhealthy.

Correct, gambling is not unhealthy, and neither is butter, or sodium, or really cheesy movies. The key to all of that is moderation – if you’re not taking care to balance out this stuff, it gets out of hand and THEN it becomes unhealthy.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

It is for you wallet.

Say what you will, I never gamble with any money I can’t afford to part with already.

Look, even if you make a Legendary acquisition “skill based”, what’s going to happen is the same as if it were a scavenger hunt or a quest you could “look up the FAQ for”. People are going to look up what they need to do and do it until they get it. Ninety percent of them won’t even really let the lessons stick with them, they’ll just do it until chance makes it happen.

Again, it’s just repetition until you get it which . . . is what we have now.

Jski.6180:

@ Tobias Trueflight (its getting too long to quote)

I was trying to point out that though who think that way tend to see this as a geartrademill in some ways i am saying you may think this way some what.
What you must realize that though with full Ascended gear as you call them the “Ascended group” tends to play the game more so then though with out so these group will tend to have more over all skill due to Experience with the game. At the same time fractal makes you a better player this is because you must work as a group to make it though events you must be able to roll at well time times and over all you have a better idea what your class can and cant do.
This is a near action mmorpg (not a full action and most like would never work as one lag of any type destroys these types of games) gear is only a small part of your ability of play. Its your skill chose your treates set up and your ability to times things out that the true test of how “good” you are.

The Ascended group wouldn’t need to play the game longer, or more. They might just have gotten REALLY LUCKY at the RNG. Or the “Exotic Group” are all alts of someone who has been playing much much more so the skill level isn’t readily apparent until they start action.

We’re pretty much agreeing here, it’s just that there’s too many details which go into how effective a character actually is than gear.

Minion of Vey.4398:

Something like the mad king jumping puzzle does take skill, but that kind of gameplay isn’t something I think most MMO players would be interested in focusing on.

That doesn’t take skill. That takes repetition until you get it right. You do not need skill to do the jumping puzzle because once you know how to do it and did it once, it’s going to be done easily.

Saying that takes skill is misdirecting because I could . . . in essence, pass any multiple-choice test the same way. Take the SAT over and over again learning the questions and the how the answers are arranged, and maybe actually learning the stuff they test for, until I can pass it flawlessly. That’s not skill, that’s just repetition until you get it right.

That’s called experimentation.

Calae.1738:

Not having to switch axes on different types of logs is an inconvenience I’m willing to pay for but, I get your point. I can spend my time far more productively than chopping wood. That was the point I was trying to make.

True, you could always salvage any drop not Masterwork or above with Basic Kits and manage to turn around enough to make the Kit’s cost back. Even more so if you happen to get a Tier 6 material (Gossamer, Ancient Wood . . .) back out of it.

Of course, the trees are guaranteed at least 3 logs with a chance of up to 6, and maybe a Hidden Stash at the level of the tree you’re chopping. So I suppose the reward value of a tree is dependent on whether you only get 3 logs or . . . if as I do . . . you average out to around 4.5 logs over a course of time.

Calae.1738:

A good example is elder wood logs.

The cost of me going around chopping elder wood logs is no longer economically feasable. I costs me 4 copper per whack of an orichalcum axe and the log sells for 11 copper on the TP. Once you factor in the TP tax of 15% your left with about 8 copper per log minus the 4 copper per whack with your axe and thats 4 copper per log. The net return on chopping elder wood logs is very very low.

Note: you don’t need the highest level axe for Elder Wood, only for Ancient Wood. Elder Wood you can work with Mithril. So, your calculations are off.

Jski.6180:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mackdose.6504:

Astralporing.1957:

Mackdose.6504:

Revolution.6301:

well Ascended should be there but only as a cosmetic feature. People love their skins. Love to show off. Anet just let them love and all will be good again.

And then fix the stats and let us casuals get stats easier.

Thank you

I’m a casual, and I think options for all player types is good for the game. Stop acting like casuals are losing out on something because of ascended gear, we’re not.

Not yet. Eventually, when all content will be updated with ascended stats in mind (and the devs said it will), everyone else will be left behind.

The content isn’t even balanced around exotics yet. This isn’t some “spreadsheet your max dps to wipe a 3%” kind of game. I’m not sure why you think otherwise.

Because some people play it that way. I’m being serious, because some people play it that way, it needs to be taken into account. It’s been brought up every time when “you don’t need Ascended for most content” starts being said, that some people might as well need it due to a “need” to have the best in slot gear they can get.

Some people play the game that way, and I honestly don’t want to tell them they’re playing the game wrong. I just think other games could give them that better than this.

Your kind of asking for humans to be changed at that point. There no way Anet can do that some ppl will always play by the max/min and there is nothing that can be done to fix that.
There is no geartrademill in this game its just the view of some players that there is. This is more so true for the max/min players. As i said before if you look hard enofe for something you will find it even if its not there in the first places.

I’m not asking for anything to be changed. Frankly, what I want isn’t going to matter enough for anyone to take it seriously – it never has before, it never will. There’s a much broader audience for a game to reach than “just me”, so expecting my vision of something to come out on top is very selfish.

I agree, people want to min/max and some people do it naturally. For them, its fun to figure out efficiency and use the math skills they possess to run numbers and figure this stuff out. There is nothing wrong with that, it keeps your math skills in practice and keeps you entertained.

My only comment is that maybe GW2 isn’t the best place for people like that to play, because the edge you can garner right now by Ascended gear (even extrapolating to a full set) isn’t a factor in PvE (yet) and in WvW it becomes less important the more you move away from small groups facing each other in semiorganized things.

Sure, one group of 5 people in Ascended has a statistical advantage over the 5 people in Exotic, but unless you’re suddenly in a pocket world where nothing else can interfere and the terrain is flat and featureless then whether the Ascended group has the advantage in gear is moot. But . . .

- More people can ambush the Ascended group and nullify the stat advantage with superior numbers of ANOTHER sort.
- If the engagement is done in a spot where terrain can be used to advantage, it can be used to alter the outcome.
- Consumables in use might alter the outcome.
- If the engagement is done in a spot people can hit with siege because the Exotic-wearers chose that place to engage, then it’s again not a flat choice.
- Skill. Overall skill at playing the class and knowing how to deal with your opposing classes can . . . does even now . . . trump stat advantage.

Mackdose.6504:

Astralporing.1957:

Mackdose.6504:

Revolution.6301:

well Ascended should be there but only as a cosmetic feature. People love their skins. Love to show off. Anet just let them love and all will be good again.

And then fix the stats and let us casuals get stats easier.

Thank you

I’m a casual, and I think options for all player types is good for the game. Stop acting like casuals are losing out on something because of ascended gear, we’re not.

Not yet. Eventually, when all content will be updated with ascended stats in mind (and the devs said it will), everyone else will be left behind.

The content isn’t even balanced around exotics yet. This isn’t some “spreadsheet your max dps to wipe a 3%” kind of game. I’m not sure why you think otherwise.

Because some people play it that way. I’m being serious, because some people play it that way, it needs to be taken into account. It’s been brought up every time when “you don’t need Ascended for most content” starts being said, that some people might as well need it due to a “need” to have the best in slot gear they can get.

Some people play the game that way, and I honestly don’t want to tell them they’re playing the game wrong. I just think other games could give them that better than this.

Calae.1738:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yourself.6870:

eisberg.2379:

I disagree. If it cost me nothing to achieve, then I consider them as free. Doesn’t matter if they can be sold on the TP, if I didn’t spend any money on it, then it is free.

You are certainly free to think so, but in economics there is a term called “opportunity cost”, which means that by doing one thing you can’t do the other. i.e. if you use your resources for crafting, you can’t sell them and vice versa. The cost in this case is represented by the potential market value of your harvested resources.

Also it didn’t cost you nothing to get those resources. You invested time gathering them after all. Granted, most of the time it’s simply a matter of just hitting up nodes along your way, but it’s not nothing.

This is why picking up pennies off the ground costs you more than the value of a penny, mind you, so you should totally leave any on the ground and not pick them up. It’s losing you money, and that’s been scientifically proven.

True.

If you can pick up 1 penny every ten seconds off the ground; thats 6 pennies per minute, which is 360 pennies per hour, which is $3.60 per hour. The question is, what could you be doing instead of picking up those pennies that would net you more than $3.60 per hour?

Working a second or third job, naturally. That’s less than minimum wage in most places, I’ll note . . .