Guild Wars 2

Penguin.5197:

wildcode.5403:

My favorate quote of the day is “no grind” … I want to play his version of Guild Wars 2, because in my version, I even have to grind for exotic gear … whether it be for crafting materials, or for coin to buy crafting materials, I still have to grind, and even more so with the drop rate bug.

Go play any f2p game, try to get to lvl100 then come back to guild wars and tell me guild wars has grind.

I used to play a f2p game before, would take like a month to go up one level at the higher level ranges. And only after killing groups of mobs thousands of times.

GuildWars 2 has grind.

I don’t even need to go to another game to tell you that. It has grind, however infinitesimal, and the intent was not to try to make it never be there but to make it within a certain curve where they figured it would work out. It’s pretty clear to me they knew some people were going to perceive various things as grind, or gear treadmills, and bit the bullet to try to keep it in bounds.

Which winds up leaving absolutely everyone open to crucify them for a compromise. Any grind is not no grind and you ‘promised’ no grind. Don’t say you never promised, we have you right here on tape saying that’s your belief. Can’t change your words now, and if you try to clarify what you said or explain it we’ll just take that and tear you apart with it too.

I said it in the other threads – there really was no good way for this to end. No matter what they said today, no matter what they agreed upon or apologized for, it was going to do nothing but be heard any way the listeners wanted to hear. Like in my case, I wanted to hear “we screwed up, and we’re sorry” and that seems to be what I read.

Well the answers are on par so far with what I expected to hear. That is, they had ideas already but what their execution delivered was not exactly what was intended.

Thanks for the frankness.

Now please try not to do this again . . . okay?

Sir Wai.4052:

Why do people ask for a refund…? It’s not a monthly payment game, even if you disliked it would a store let you return a video game for your console? No, I love how it only a one time fee even with it faults and such. This is focused on people who didn’t want constant grind, while the new fractals does push a little towards it I don’t mind. The game is design to be able to stop playing and come back a month later and continue with no new “item” to acquire.

They ask for a refund because they feel they deserve it. After all it’s their money, and they were “tricked” into giving it to the company.

If only it was that easy to get refunds of games I didn’t like. I’d have a lot less in the way of PS2 games I can’t get rid of

Gaming Background: I have no idea why this matters to you. Tabletop RPGs (player, GM, testing), computer-based RPGs (player, user-level debug/modifications), MMOs (9 that I can recall, from Meridian 59 and Ultima Online but most recently DDO, GW1, GW2). Rough total 20 to 25 years of generalized gaming experience.

Opinion of GW2: Flawed, but functional and entertaining. Needs work on a technical level, content could use some review, all things should be investigated to see if intent during design matches the finished product after 3 months of various changes.

In a nutshell: I’d grade it a “B”, would buy again but still room for improvement.

teviko.6049:

Have gem prices ever come down? EVER??

No.

Bold claim, can you back it up?
Cause I seem to recall it fluctuating downwards a couple times when I bought mine for bank expansions . . .

Didn’t a thread with this exact title get locked/closed not too long ago?

bri.2359:

If you want a non-scientific indication of how a game is doing, check the game rating in on-line game vendor sites.

After game launch there were mostly positive,4-5 stars. Now you see the 1-2 star reviews are beginning to add up …

Mostly because people are being encouraged to go write them, often with no real substance to the reviews, so that the game can get better. By putting the game in trouble, you see, it’s supposed to motivate the companies involved to turn the game around rather than just chalk it up as a loss and move on.

Seriously, some of those Amazon reviews pretty much are just a couple sentences about how ANet lied.

ZombiesTT.3619:

>ArenaNet makes a game and puts some things that should be included in the game into the cash shop
>Say that you can exchange gold for gems
>Works well at first
>Rapid inflation making your gold worthless
>You are forced to buy gems with real money
>Profit

By doing it this way, ArenaNet avoided a mob of players calling the game pay 2 win since you had to option of buying gems with gold. Now, because of inflation, the average player can’t really purchase enough gems to do anything with.

Thing is, I expect that price to eventually take a downturn, again. Also:

Technically you can say any of it could be put into the game. They put things in the shop which were nice but not necessary to the game. Skins, boosters, dyes, minipets . . . all of this is nonessential, just nice to have. (Especially Karma and Magic Find boosters.)

Of course, there’s also the Tournament Tickets in there, but that’s a PvP thing and I have zero experience with it. I’ll mention it and move on, someone else can pick that up.

So, what you’re looking at is not being “forced” to buy Gems for real money just to play the game. It’s not even a case of “buying Gems and then shop items makes the case significantly easier” (I have a couple of those games on my tablet).

The only arguable thing purchasable with Gems which could be considered important are Bank/Bag/Character slots. Bag slots would let you carry more stuff, Bank slots let you hoard more stuff (like those Cooking intermediate items) and character slots let you have more characters. None of this translates directly into an advantage . . . I’m sure I could, given enough rum and paper, come up with a way to figure out how to use the extra 30 slots of Bank space for an advantage, but that’ll use drunken logic rather than good logic.

The Bacon Bard.3586:

I shed a tear. Such a sad story.

And makes me think… where...is Tybalt Leftpaw?

They’re still alive, having barreled through a couple dozen Risen and rallying some of the Lionsguard to steal a boat and sail off to escape. Unfortunately, it was in the wrong direction and we’ll find them in the next revealed area in the vicinity sitting around a campfire talking about how lucky they were someone didn’t die in a pointless manner.

. . . yes I know. Not going to happen.

Don’t those all interrupt? I mean, that’s not wasted if you don’t knock them back.

Heck I get called out for using it as an interrupt since it knocks things without Stability around and messes up attack flow.

LordYz.8941:

At least the node is not randomly placed every time the server goes for a update or maintenance.

Strange thing, even so . . . the ores generally don’t seem to migrate that far. i’m curious what would happen if I overlaid all the formerly known positions of the nodes. Would we be able to see an ore/mineral distribution over the whole of Tyria hinting at where you should look for them in a more specific manner than “Frostgorge Sound” “Fireheart Rise” . . . ?

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

Crysto.7089:

ANet has also made it clear that there will be many ways to get Ascended gear other than through Fractals. An informed player would not feel forced to do FotM unless that person was also impatient.

ANet also made it clear that ascended items would never exist in the first place. I don’t think many people give much value to anything ANet says at this point…

The interesting paradox is that they might not value or trust it, but at the same time ask for explanations or answers.

Flynch.6034:

Without a champ guarding a rich node, people would camp the ever living Hell out of it.

If you want a lore reason, then perhaps the Karka deliberately moved itself there as it noticed many players going for that specific node, so it’s a permanent lunch-time at that spot.

If you want a lore reason, then consider the nodes happen to be where the Karka built that massive nest and the spot at the top was one part of the nursery once so the Champion Karka defends it, not the node. Why does Orichalcum appear there and not other places? Well consider where it does appear in the world . . .

It’s mostly focused in Orr and the Sea of Sorrows right now with a small offshoot in the Frostgorge Sound but that is small enough to be a statistical anomaly. Perhaps it’s veins present there due to some geological concentration . . . consider in the real world how minerals and ores can be found usually in generally-similar places naturally.

Mmmm, for me there was Thanksgiving and needing to cook for that, then the return of the plague (read: I got sick) so that most of what I was seeing was a little blurry from medication. After that, my computer ate a brownout and I had to do a heck of a time since early this morning tracking down the problem until it fixed itself.

In short, I wasn’t playing much because I very much couldn’t

It’s also something of a balance issue. If there was no opposition for what is basically the most consistent form of lots of Orichalcum other than running there, then the amount of it in the world increases faster than desired. Wherever it goes from there it also alters things . . . if sold on the Trading Post, it permits money (silver and gold) to be moved about easier, but the price winds up dropping as competitors need to lower their margin to sell. Eventually it bottoms out, but by then it’s so cheap and abundant nobody ever buys it.

With Orichalcum so easy to come by, what objects require Orichalcum are also easier to come by in various degrees . . . I’d say first you’d notice more Orichalcum Jewelry then weapons or armor (no Fine or secondary materials would be needed, only Ectoplasm). With it easier to get, gear standard would move towards Exotics much faster, ensuring the competitive standard shifts faster . . . and people not buying Exotics will be at a disadvantage.

Further, expanding outwards from this, the demand for Ectoplasm will rise due to it being pretty much a requirement. (I am not sure if they are not used in any Exotics.) So the price of BUYING Ectoplasm rises, and people can sell for greater and greater prices, concentrating the gold again. Farming for Rares/Exotics to break down becomes much more lucrative, speeding people into certain areas just to make money to stay abreast of everyone else in the market.

With the rising selling price of Ectos, it becomes madness NOT to break down that cool Rare you could use, since you could sell the Ectos and buy a devalued Exotic instead. Less people keep Rares and thus less people sell them. Less trading of Rares then mean Exotic is the only solution past Masterwork as soon as you can wear them.

Now, take note, this can happen naturally of course. But it would take less time if it was easier to access Orichalcum as a basis.

Reikou.7068:

A simple answer as to why the Gold/Gem exchange rate is at where it is now, is because buying gold from RMT is still about 1/3 the price of buying gold via gems.

Therefore, it is still much cheaper to purchase gold via rmt to convert to gems. Infact, if you do the math you can probably get the same amount of gems at half price for purchasing it through RMT gold.

Please tell me this is not a recommended course of action? Please?

Anyone remember when you could use that one staff skill from Guardians to move the NPCs in Lion’s Arch? And people would find Miyani moved to the back end of nowhere, or the crafter vendors . . . ?

Imagine now if you could drop them into, say, the opening of Troll’s End.

No thank you.

Adine.2184:

Bots are never and never will be good . Anyone who says otherwise has very flawed ethics

Oh they can be good. Just not in this game.

They make splendid target practice in shooters though.

Transistor.8746:

@ nacho, that doesn’t make sense, if people stop buying gems, the price would go down because the demand would be less.

From what I recall being told, the Gems purchased for Gold are the same pool as the Gems sold for Gold. If less people buy actual Gems and sell them for Gold, then there is less supply to meet the demand . . . and price goes up.

Kromsin.6359:

The idea is for you to spend real currency.

I’d posit, alternatively, the idea is for you to want to spend real currency. It’s a whole lot easier to get something from someone who wants to give it to you. And they have to get an income somewhere, so make it an attractive prospect.

. . . then again, you can always do the math yourself. The Gem Exchange rate for Gold is high now, so you are paying more gold for 100 Gems. After it goes down, you pay less gold for that same amount, and even if it doesn’t go as far there’s always waiting until it goes down a little more.

Paying 1g50s for 100 Gems, you’re paying 4g50s for a 300 Gem item when it’s on sale from 600.

Paying 1g for 100 Gems later, you’ll be paying 6g for that same item later, but you don’t need to get that 6g all at once. There’s no need for you to get it urgently together.

Just a suggestion?

Don’t argue the point on Ascended gear. Just don’t. It’s not worth the headache, you’re going to get a limited amount of respect from most people on the topic at best, and at worst you will go down forever as being “wrong”.

Wrong. On the Internet.

There is no escaping that, ever.

Transistor.8746:

Now the exchange is 1g31s/100gems. This is crazy. I’m trying to rationalize how the black friday promotion could be responsible but it makes no sense. Why would things costing LESS gems cause a player-induced demand for MORE gems?

Two possible reasons I present to you.

ArenaNet is out to get you and wants all your money spent on Gems. Yes, even that $500 you taped to the bottom of your sock drawer. They know about it and are artificially driving up the price so you spend real money instead of gold.

Or

Everyone’s buying Gems for Gold because they refuse to spend real money on it, but they still want the goodies out of the Gem Shop. So they need Gems, and buy it with Gold . . . driving the price up for now.

Tenshi.3598:

Avatar.1923:

Tobias;

there is no way the game can keep the massive amout of hardcore players without treadmill and esport.

gw2 want to be the next big thing, and to be that big you need gear treadmill until somebody come up with a better fantasy mmo design.

And imo, that’s the core of the issue.

GW2 was (I strongly suspect) ordered to be something it wasn’t designed to be. By a greedy publisher (yup, I’m still ANet fanboy :P). Now it’s incomplete in both ways.

I guess we’ll see next year. That’s when GW2’s real test may come, as the next big series gives it a try.

I hope it lasts, and that we do start to see the ideas which were discussed/promised during the press hype. Guild Halls, more work with the Home Instance . . . more town clothing, shifting dynamic events where it might change over time . . .

catqeer.1954:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

catqeer.1954:

I’m curious maybe they will do like what they did with male and female charr… where the female are a bit more domesticated looking and the males more wild and beastly looking.

The females are more domesticated looking? Really, cause the only difference I see is a vaguely lower amount of bulk and the fluffier tail.

I did say above, if they stand by things then they’ll probably have male tengu be more strikingly colored but the females duller and less vibrant.

Well by more domesticated looking i meant less bestially and more cat like… most of the female charr faces are similar to domestic cats…. aren’t female tengu also suppose to be taller and bigger. maybe female tengu will have more of a song bird look while males are more birds of prey looking.

If you want an illustration, check out how different a male and female Peregrine falcon look.

Female – http://images03.olx.ae/ui/6/68/49/1274864354_96215949_1-Pictures-of--Healthy-male-and-female-peregrine-falcon-for-sale-1274864354.jpg

Male – http://www.johnmcdermott.net/uploaded_images/Peregrine-Falcon_20070104_9_5-761967.JPG

Gehenna.3625:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Gehenna.3625:

What can I say, some people may decide lightning is coming whent hey see the clouds gather and hear thunder. People like you seem to need to be struck by lightning before they believe it was coming. Sometimes the signs are clear enough.

I dislike analogies like this. This is a “mortal imminent danger” sort of thing, at which I wouldn’t take chances. I don’t expect to be struck by lightning, no, that’s an unlikely chance even if I was standing in my backyard, in full platemail and holding a steel lance over my head. Of course, if there was a lightning storm I’d be inside looking for candles in case of a power outage and getting water chilled.

Please stop comparing this change to “mortal imminent danger”. Pretty please. I do not require playing this game. I do require my life. There is a nontrivial difference.

That’s because you focus on the wrong part. I was clearly refering to the point that you can see undesirable events or situations coming. To deny the obvious when there are clear signs is silly to me. That’s all I intended with that. The mortal danger element was not the point at all, so you can disregard that completely.

Amonde Daneren.2380:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Please stop comparing this change to “mortal imminent danger”. Pretty please. I do not require playing this game. I do require my life. There is a nontrivial difference.

But this is the thing you don’t get… It is both very clear mortal danger to many of us. There are tens if not HUNDREDS of grinding gear progression MMOs that come out with higher level caps and gear tiers in expansions. There is NO OTHER MMO built on the idea of horizontal progression without the ever expanding stat ceiling (other than GW1 ofc).

This is the reason those opposing ascended gear are speaking out so strongly. We have one last hope, and it is being ruined by people that want a TOTALLY different kind of game, and bought this one being wholly uninformed as to what kind of game it was supposed to be.

“Imminent mortal danger” is “I am going to die if I do or don’t do something”.

This isn’t that. You feel strongly for the game. I feel strongly for the game. We can live without it. (I know we don’t want to, or we wouldn’t be here talking about it, we’d be looking for something else to be doing.) There is a nontrivial chance of a change you won’t want and I won’t want happening, but it’s not the same as being hit by lightning, burning up in a fire, being shot in the leg, ignoring warning signs to death or injury . . .

It’s not the same. It cheapens such dire events and to those who don’t agree with you it makes it look like you’re going overboard. That’s ALL I am trying to say here. Nobody is in danger of dying and pulling analogies about death and injury is a bit too far.

Please, find another analogy of undesirable events which don’t relate to death or dying.

catqeer.1954:

I’m curious maybe they will do like what they did with male and female charr… where the female are a bit more domesticated looking and the males more wild and beastly looking.

The females are more domesticated looking? Really, cause the only difference I see is a vaguely lower amount of bulk and the fluffier tail.

I did say above, if they stand by things then they’ll probably have male tengu be more strikingly colored but the females duller and less vibrant.

Anyway, enough rambling from me. I’ve pretty much said everything I really wanted to and anything further is just repeating or winding up backtracking on my words to try again to get my point across.

If you want an actual game designer’s view on this game, look here. I don’t necessarily agree 100% with him, but he’s an expert and I’m not

http://psychochild.org/?p=1172

< Continued >

Master of Orion 2, I would consider is a very good competitive strategy game. And furthermore, it’s increasingly likely people here know what game I’m talking about. The game starts at a level playing field, but your opponent can’t be seen right away and it is likely they are moving past you in some way as the turns pass. Are they building more ships, researching better weapons, colonizing for a bigger resource pool? You don’t know, and it’s relatively easy to find yourself making contact only to find out that you are very very screwed. You’ve still got tier 3 weapons and they’re sporting tier 5, and better ship armor. Or maybe you only have a couple expensive well-armed ships and they got a fleet of smaller cheaper ones to chip you down faster than you can swat them. Either way, you’re outmatched, outplayed, and you lose. The game difficulty is not broken, you just weren’t ready.

One final example, and this one is reaching a bit. Minecraft. You join a server which has been going for a while. Two weeks, six months . . . a year? Anyway, you get on there and it’s readily apparent other players have scoured the place for resources and you don’t have any. The difficulty is now set at “oh crap how am I going to do this?” for anyone who just has a basic grasp of the game. It’s a challenge, as you really only have anywhere from ten minutes to no minutes to get yourself in a shelter for the night until it’s safe to go out again. There’s no predicting the kind of difficulty a player is going to walk into in this situation. (You know, except for if they’re entering a Creative server with no struggle at all, but for the purposes of this we’ll just assume that’s a “no contest, not applicable here”.)

All of these games (WITH the exception of MoO2) are simple to learn, and varying difficulties to master. None of them are, objectively, bad games for doing so.

The question of “how low do you set the bar?” is only able to be answered by another question:

“How many people do you want to buy/play your game?”

Any other answer just isn’t objective enough and adds assumptions to the mix.

Vlaxitov.5693:

I’m not interested in the “thats not what I meant even though thats what I typed” game but lets play anyway. When you say " was posing it to you, and to everyone saying this gear is a bad idea," what does that mean? Well to any rational person it means that you’re saying that I’ve said its a bad idea. I haven’t said that at all. All I’ve said is that it maybe could have been done differently while already making plain that I didn’t think it was a bad idea in my last response to you. Are you even reading what I’m typing?

You have yet to answer my question. To what extent should a game maker make their content “accessible to everyone” at the cost of what couldn’t be anything other than lowering the bar on dare I say skill and or effort to access the content?

(Sorry, I’m trying to read it, but I’m likely to take a walk away because a lot of this is . . . in my head . . . blurring together in what different people have said about this. A break might be in order to try to get a grip on it again. I’ll try to be a bit better for this one, then I’m likely going to go find something else to do for a while.)

To answer your question . . . a game maker’s decision of how “low” to set the average skill is to each developer. If you want more people to play your game and get far in it, you want the bar lower than if you want to make it challenging but possible to be beaten with time and learning the game.

Disclaimer: I am not a game designer. I am not a developer. I’m just a guy who writes stuff and sometimes pulls a bunch of friends together around a virtual tabletop for D&D every half dozen or so months. Anything I say here is not from a position of expertise, only amateur experience. Also, I’m going to be bringing up examples which aren’t MMOs to illustrate my point. Sadly, I can’t think of a way of bringing one into it without all the other baggage each game has with it in other departments.

. . . and to start I might as well go fully to a basic game most of you probably know. Chess. Chess is remarkably easy to learn the rules for, and the rules (generally) are the same world over. But mastery and skill of it is hard; while anyone who knows the rules can pick up a set and find another player, your average person is probably going to get curb-stomped by a Grandmaster who spent years refining their strategies and learning the game. This game is accessible to lots of people, but the skill bar moves depending on who’s at the table . . . and you can’t tell what the bar is until you’re done with a few games.

Card games (deck of 52 cards, not CCGs) also use a structure which often doesn’t change between hands, and are relatively easy to learn but difficult to win based on who else is playing. Sit at an established poker table after reading the basic rules and you’re probably not going to walk away with a lot of money . . . it’s not that the game is unfair, or too challenging, it’s that you put yourself in a position to be more challenged without being entirely aware of it. Also, hustlers can artificially make the bar appear lower than it really is to sucker you in and curb-stomp you when they get bored with you.

Video games. Again, back to basics. Your average NES video game generally wasn’t difficult to learn how things worked but it required you to either get lucky in a distinct progression or work to learn the controls. There are only eight input buttons after all, so it’s not like there was an infinite complexity in how you controlled it. At the same time, Super Mario Bros. was not as complex as . . . let’s say Contra, or I’ll go back to Ninja Gaiden again. Other examples of “easy enough to learn how to play, but requires effort to understand and beat”. However, for video games where there’s only one player or two players not directly competing, the only question of where to set the bar depends on whether you want your game to be beloved and revered or legendary and discussed for ages. (I’m not going to qualify which is which, because it’s a subjective on that anyway. One person may hold one game to be “better” than the other because it was easier and they could beat it, while the other isn’t “as good” because it frustrated them from the difficulty.)

Competitive video games . . . different animals no matter how you slice it. How difficult do you want to make your game? What genre is it? How does the competition work? No matter what the genre . . .

. . . okay, excluding strategy games, because the learning curve on those can be a nightmare.

. . . anyway. Competitive video games have the problem of where to set the bar for comprehension of the game, but “difficulty” is still largely depending on the other players’ skill and experience. Most of them fall into a category where the field is automatically level at the start and only grows unbalanced later. Strategy games are an odd man out, though.

< More >

Vlaxitov.5693:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Do stop putting words in my mouth. about what I’m saying, or what I must mean.

I’ll leave you with one question though. And it’s not just to you but to everyone else.

“If ArenaNet capitulated completely with your demands this be taken out, would you stay? And what about the people who aren’t you, who might be harmed by actions taken to remove this content?”

You see alot of this in online forums. You just accused me of putting words in your mouth (which I clearly didn’t) then went on to assume that I “demand it be taken out.” Whatever gave you the impression that I’m demanding it be taken out? I think it maybe could have been done differently but I never said I think it should be taken out. Thats essentially my question, to what extent are you willing to make all the content in a game “accessible to everyone” at the cost of what couldn’t be anything other than lowering the bar on dare I say skill or effort to access the content?

I wasn’t insisting YOU were the one demanding it be taken out, and that’s what I meant by “putting words in my mouth”. I was after “you” in a plural general sense not a specific individual sense with the question. I was posing it to you, and to everyone saying this gear is a bad idea.

. . . Gods above I hate the English language pronouns sometimes . . .

Corvindi.5734:

Keeping up with the Hamsters requires acting like a Hamster. As soon as Ascended was announced, I knew I was done with WvW and would avoid grouping in PVE even more than I already did. But I wouldn’t have had to lose my favorite part of the game (WvW) and become even more antisocial if everyone else refused to be a hamster, too, because then they never would have dared put this gear in.

Point to note, if everyone else refused to be a hamster, there wouldn’t be a problem over this. I mean, unless you’re telling me if the majority of WvW forces were kitted out in non-maximum gear then they’d lose all the time . . .

. . . wait a moment. All WvW are maxed out with gear now, right, I mean, totally level playing field? No? Then what’s changing if the people in full Exotic move to Ascended, and the non-Exotics get up there due to Exotic becoming cheaper to get hands on?

WvW isn’t solely about gear, because if it was then there wouldn’t be talk about the Thieves’ burst damage output. Or night capping. Or the portal-turtle trick.

plasmacutter.2709:

Corvindi.5734:

Since Ascended gear will create the standard WoW-style haves and have-nots and worse, will put those who don’t have it at a disadvantage in WvW, I’m against it for the same reason I’m against corporate and military power being used to oppress the poor and powerless.

Although I’m less concerned about Ascended gear than I am about real world bully tactics, since I’m %99 positive no one is going to actually die from Ascended. Unless, of course, someone really does try to farm up all those mats. Hopefully no stories of people found dead in their chairs with the GW2 loading screen on their monitors will surface.

We need a hitler video where he raves about ascended…

I still think the bigger issue is the following combination:
Ascended + high FOTM challenge levels + FOTM gating = lots of people feeling compelled to do something they don’t want (emptying the rest of the world and making for VERY testy players), and the FotM gating mechanism preventing people trying to group for it from gaining optimal outcomes for each person.

I dare say the fact Ascended is not available through every means like exotic is a much greater problem than the simple presence of Ascended, as gear seems to be a much smaller factor in this game than others.

This one I can agree with the sentiment of. The Fractals and Ascended should have been “whole hog or none” to avoid this severe split I know they probably had their reasons (possibly very good ones like “well we weren’t quite 100% ready yet”) but it’s still not good.

Vlaxitov.5693:

You must be the only person in the world who plays games untill you’re bored of them and as sarcastic as I’m being that is my point exactly. You’re driving my point home as well by already conceding to the fact that you will be moving on. Thats like saying “yeah, I can see myself getting bored with this game.” So can I, so can I.

Vertical or horizontal progression is beside the point as I wouldn’t mind horizontal one bit as long as it was entertaining enough. Itemization, customization, challenging and or complex means to either. These are the things people want (or at least did want) in a game like this. Theres only so far you can go with that if your purpose is to not offend soccer moms or people with two left hands.

Do stop putting words in my mouth. about what I’m saying, or what I must mean.

- It’s not about how you have fun, it’s whether you had fun at all. Some people have fun doing truly stupid stuff . . . like my example. That was kinda dumb. But it was fun, I had a good time, and I defy your attempts to tell me that fun doesn’t matter. It matters.

- Yes. Single player games. Pass/fail games. Deathmatch games. Whatever you want to call them, they don’t have scores. They’re all still games, and they’re all still fun. Even games with scores tend to be less about the score. Master of Orion (First or second) offers a score but really, finishing it can be hard enough sometimes. I guess it’s openly competitive to get a high score and that’s all that matters? Minecraft has a score in it, it must be all about who can get the highest and not build the most interesting thing? How about Nethack . . . (shiver) . . . not really a score involved, just a set of things you did while you either died horribly or won the game.

None of these are “fun”? Are they any more or less fun than an online game like this or World of Warcraft or EVE Online? How do you qualify and quantify it objectively?

As for “admitting I’ll be moving on” . . . yes. Eventually I will, just as eventually GW1 is going to shut down, WoW is going to shut down, and eventually the Browns will win the Super Bowl.

(Quiet, I can dream.)

“Seems like your purpose is more to entertain than honestly discuss.”

A little of both. My goal is to present opinions and questions, within an entertaining or at least not adversarial way. As annoyed as I can be at the constant bickering about this, the fact both sides seem to be talking past each other the majority of the time, and that people are getting reduced to “gear-grinder” “apologist” “fanboy” “whiner” . . . no. That’s less conductive to a discussion than trying to be entertaining while striving for the point.

(Which, mind you, is a good way to get your point across. Compare and contrast simply telling someone “naked, untempered greed is bad” versus getting them to watch Wall Street.)

I’ll leave you with one question though. And it’s not just to you but to everyone else.

“If ArenaNet capitulated completely with your demands this be taken out, would you stay? And what about the people who aren’t you, who might be harmed by actions taken to remove this content?”

I don’t really hate Logan per se . . . he was interesting while I was doing my first two chapters of my human’s personal storyline. After we got into things concerning Destiny’s Edge?

I wanted to dope-slap him with a warhammer. And Rytlock too. And punt Zojja off Mount Maelstrom. The childish bickering was neat for exactly five minutes when they got back together, and I thought the story mode dungeons would have them reconciling . . . no, instead we have Logan/Zojja where they snipe at each other without talking TO each other, we have Eir/Rytlock where Rytlock dumps his crap on her . . . and we have Sorrow’s Embrace where Zojja goes into raging psycho ex mode.

Despite this, I get that they’re supposed to be complex characters and have deep wounds over what happened in “Edge of Destiny” but . . . wow. This was “King Adlelbern after Nolani Academy” levels of “I want to beat some sense into you with a cluehammer”.

In a general discussion thread there was some talk about potential cash shop goodies and I wound up thinking of this:

Town clothing / armor skins styled after what people of the different regions wear. Or wore, even. Ancient Krytan peasant clothing, or old Vanguard things . . . Zaishen outfits, Canthan peasant dress, Elonian peasant dress, old asuran dress based off what we saw in GW1. Or “modern Tyria” stuff which cries out “I’m from Lion’s Arch” or “I’m from the Blood Legion”.

SHM.7628:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SHM.7628:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Moddo.7105:

lordkrall.7241:

It is worth sticking with.
Most of the negativity is overreacting and most of it comes from the same group of people.
Also keep in mind that happy customers tend to play the game and such instead of shouting about things on the forums.

You know Every game that has failed people have said this. Do you know that you are doing Anet no favors by you falling into typical human reaction of thinking you are in the majority. Same thing happened to GoP during last election and is still happening. People think their views are only right ones and thus everyone must have them. So from now on state your opinion and leave it at that. Don’t make up fantasy situations that you can have no idea if true or not.

Of course every game that has failed has had people say this. Because, well, everything ends eventually. So, since everything ends eventually all you have to do to ensure “every game that has failed has had people say that” is pop on all the forums which exist and say this. Eventually the game will fail and you’ll be completely correct.

About the only game which hasn’t failed, yet, is Nethack.

I’d hardly call GW1 a failure. Sure it declined because of its age, but it didn’t fail, It had longevity. Failing and ending are two different things. I do think GW2 is failing ATM. It’s certainly not meeting its potential. Perhaps they can salvage it.

I guess the only real measure of success or failure would be the cash shop. Only they know how that is doing. Happy players spend money. I never spent a dime there. However, I would have gladly supported them if I was happy (and they offered something i wanted.)

Maybe this is a tangent, but they just offered junk imo. Perhaps someguild housing that offered free waypoint travel. Perhaps a golem banker that was permanent. I’d even buy account bound exotics/ legendaries. Sadly, none of that was offered and I was dissatisfied with the game anyway.

They sure as heck weren’t going to offer free waypoint use or Exotics for cash :P I think you expected way too much out of the cash shop.

And Guild Wars 1 is still going. For now. But it will get shut down eventually, that’s a solid prediction. Eventually. Not tomorrow, not next month but one day in the distant future it will end.

(And watch, Nethack will still be here. There’s no justice.)

The probably won’t do exotics for cash. Though, who knows the way things are going as of late? The waypoints would come with guild hosuing if they made it, because how else would you get in and out of your guild without travel? Nonetheless, I was just giving some examples of what I’d pay for.

As crazy as these things sound to sell, They will likely have to shore up the cash shop because they won’t have expansions like GW1. They are going to have to cross this bridge at some point. Probably sooner rather than later if the player drop off continues.

Well if they want to shore up the cash store, the Consortium Chest was one method I’d not be totally incensed by. And it’s something I could see them doing – “hey, here’s a chest with some stuff from the new content in it to play around with. One common material, one rarer material, and a random skin or min!”

Or they could offer town clothing. They haven’t offered a whole lot of that but if there were costumes to fit in with some of the NPC factions or city styles? That’s be cool.

I’m probably going to post that on the suggestion thread now, this idea deserves to be seen by those looking for it

Gehenna.3625:

What can I say, some people may decide lightning is coming whent hey see the clouds gather and hear thunder. People like you seem to need to be struck by lightning before they believe it was coming. Sometimes the signs are clear enough.

I dislike analogies like this. This is a “mortal imminent danger” sort of thing, at which I wouldn’t take chances. I don’t expect to be struck by lightning, no, that’s an unlikely chance even if I was standing in my backyard, in full platemail and holding a steel lance over my head. Of course, if there was a lightning storm I’d be inside looking for candles in case of a power outage and getting water chilled.

Please stop comparing this change to “mortal imminent danger”. Pretty please. I do not require playing this game. I do require my life. There is a nontrivial difference.

Well, the charr are more Spartan. With Latin-derived names. Ascalon also burned under it’s king, so there’s that too.

Alas, the direct comparisons sort of end there. Ascalonians have paler complexions and are for the most part reduced in number pretty well. Many of them live in exile in Kryta from where they settled, though some are in Ebonhawke.

From what little we saw before the Searing, Ascalonians were under the impression the Wall would keep the charr out, and even with Ashford right within a walk from a checkpoint through the wall there was no concern there. We do know King Adelbern was descended from King Doric but not in the line of succession – it was the will of the people that put him there.

(That worked out beautifully, by the way. Thanks ancestors!)

By the way, my money is on the original Ascalonian settlers being exiles from Kryta. That being the seed which began the tension between those two nations.

Hobocop.1508:

Have you actually…you know…played in a bracket where agony is present?

That’s what agony is in nearly all situations. Another condition applied to already existing boss attacks that punishes you for not avoiding it, and if you really think that resistance is going to let you sit there and facetank all the bosses attacks with agony in them, you’re going to be looking at a pretty hefty repair bill.

The ONLY exception is the Jade Maw, and even that can be played around in the 10-19 bracket with little difficulty.

Ah, but the point the other poster was making was that the Infusions let you ignore the Agony effect so it’s still required and takes no skill.

Yeah I’m not sure I get it either.

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Really?

I thought it was removing skill from the combat in the game.

This game was designed and launched around the idea that if you don’t actively dodge damage and remove conditions (e.g. you didn’t pay attention) you would be unable to progress very far, and if you were particularly reactive and did well at avoiding damage, you would be rewarded for your skill.

Not anymore. Agony is “unavoidable”, you can’t overcome it with skill no matter what, and you’re stuck stacking a boring resistance stat which allows you to “cheese” an encounter with “gear”.

That is the OPPOSITE of skill-based combat. I don’t want to see it anymore in this game, and I want the option to completely ignore FotM.

Are you sure about “unavoidable”? I had someone telling me that Agony is attached to certain boss attacks and thus can be dodged for the most part.

It was in the patch notes. Unavoidable and irremovable by any traditional means.

I know about the patch notes, I know about the interviews and blog posts. I also know I asked two people what was up with Agony and they let me know some things. Also:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13ecxn/information_about_agony_and_agony_resistance/

There’s that?

Agony and its associated resistance serves one function: Allowing you to “cheese” events with “gear”.

This is the opposite of skill-based play.

Well, no. Right now you get only a limited amount of Agony Resistance. So while it won’t kill you, it will still mess you up. Again, from someone I chatted with while I was waiting in Lion’s Arch. Point is you still don’t want to get hit. Sure, you can survive a hit . . . but you would be better off not hit at all.

The gameplay rewards skill, just as much as if the Agony Resistance wasn’t there. Maybe even more so, because you’d not be hit rather than surviving it. And as we all know, 0 damage is better than any amount. Especially if other effects get stacked on with Agony.

The presence of this stat in “infusions” and the fact that all pieces of gear will have it will mean anyone who is not stacking agony resist will be told to GTFO and DIAF.

The only way agony promotes skill based combat over gear based combat is if they ditch the idea of agony resist and tune it as simply a condition that punishes people for failing to avoid attacks.

Only once Agony kicks in as a mechanic, which is at difficulties 10+. I think there were confirmed cases of the Ascended rings dropping before that. If that’s true you don’t even need to go deal with Agony for the rings.

Of course, you can also not get the rings at all. Or set foot in Fractals except to tick your Montly Achievements.

Raf.1078:

@ Tobias

EQ1/EQ2 both have been going for over a decade. Why would ANet do any less with GW1/GW2?

Several reasons. The primary one being that the business ceases to exist, so nobody is there to run the servers.

Look, I’m not saying they deserve to die, and I’m not saying it will be a malicious or intentional “ha ha, pull the plug” kind of thing. The only constant which can be relied on other than the fact that every object has to have a beginning is that it also has to have an end. That includes, unfortunate as it is, computer programs.

Except, like I said . . . Nethack.

(It’ll survive nuclear fire, I swear.)

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Really?

I thought it was removing skill from the combat in the game.

This game was designed and launched around the idea that if you don’t actively dodge damage and remove conditions (e.g. you didn’t pay attention) you would be unable to progress very far, and if you were particularly reactive and did well at avoiding damage, you would be rewarded for your skill.

Not anymore. Agony is “unavoidable”, you can’t overcome it with skill no matter what, and you’re stuck stacking a boring resistance stat which allows you to “cheese” an encounter with “gear”.

That is the OPPOSITE of skill-based combat. I don’t want to see it anymore in this game, and I want the option to completely ignore FotM.

Are you sure about “unavoidable”? I had someone telling me that Agony is attached to certain boss attacks and thus can be dodged for the most part.

It was in the patch notes. Unavoidable and irremovable by any traditional means.

I know about the patch notes, I know about the interviews and blog posts. I also know I asked two people what was up with Agony and they let me know some things. Also:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13ecxn/information_about_agony_and_agony_resistance/

There’s that?

Agony and its associated resistance serves one function: Allowing you to “cheese” events with “gear”.

This is the opposite of skill-based play.

Well, no. Right now you get only a limited amount of Agony Resistance. So while it won’t kill you, it will still mess you up. Again, from someone I chatted with while I was waiting in Lion’s Arch. Point is you still don’t want to get hit. Sure, you can survive a hit . . . but you would be better off not hit at all.

The gameplay rewards skill, just as much as if the Agony Resistance wasn’t there. Maybe even more so, because you’d not be hit rather than surviving it. And as we all know, 0 damage is better than any amount. Especially if other effects get stacked on with Agony.

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

Absconditus.6804:

I at least, think it was a good idea to add the Ascended tier of equipment. It introduces an interesting mechanic with resistances that can be used in multiple parts of the game.

Really?

I thought it was removing skill from the combat in the game.

This game was designed and launched around the idea that if you don’t actively dodge damage and remove conditions (e.g. you didn’t pay attention) you would be unable to progress very far, and if you were particularly reactive and did well at avoiding damage, you would be rewarded for your skill.

Not anymore. Agony is “unavoidable”, you can’t overcome it with skill no matter what, and you’re stuck stacking a boring resistance stat which allows you to “cheese” an encounter with “gear”.

That is the OPPOSITE of skill-based combat. I don’t want to see it anymore in this game, and I want the option to completely ignore FotM.

Are you sure about “unavoidable”? I had someone telling me that Agony is attached to certain boss attacks and thus can be dodged for the most part.

It was in the patch notes. Unavoidable and irremovable by any traditional means.

I know about the patch notes, I know about the interviews and blog posts. I also know I asked two people what was up with Agony and they let me know some things. Also:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/13ecxn/information_about_agony_and_agony_resistance/

There’s that?

plasmacutter.2709:

Absconditus.6804:

I at least, think it was a good idea to add the Ascended tier of equipment. It introduces an interesting mechanic with resistances that can be used in multiple parts of the game.

Really?

I thought it was removing skill from the combat in the game.

This game was designed and launched around the idea that if you don’t actively dodge damage and remove conditions (e.g. you didn’t pay attention) you would be unable to progress very far, and if you were particularly reactive and did well at avoiding damage, you would be rewarded for your skill.

Not anymore. Agony is “unavoidable”, you can’t overcome it with skill no matter what, and you’re stuck stacking a boring resistance stat which allows you to “cheese” an encounter with “gear”.

That is the OPPOSITE of skill-based combat. I don’t want to see it anymore in this game, and I want the option to completely ignore FotM.

Are you sure about “unavoidable”? I had someone telling me that Agony is attached to certain boss attacks and thus can be dodged for the most part.

dalendria.3762:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

plasmacutter.2709:

The new Ascended gear aside, the much more pressing and important factor is that tying this Ascended gear to only one aspect of the game has bled the others dry.

Further, pushing people who are after shinies into the most difficult aspect of the game has encouraged exclusionary behavior in an effort to seek “easier means” as well as outright elitist trolling.

THIS is the biggest issue with the last patch, not the stats (Not that I don’t think the stats are ALSO a problem, just not NEARLY as big of a problem as this!)

Agreed. Very much agreed, the conduct going on with the LFG elitism is aggravating the issue

This is the warning many of us were trying to share. Said it before, the vertical progression approach seems to attract nasty people or bring out the worse in some people. Yes, you can have jerks in a horizontal progression based game but they tend not to stay long (no griefing, no way to feel superior to others because everyone has the best gear).

They were around before this Fractals/Ascended thing and were the reason I stayed the heck out of dungeons. I’m not the best player and those places were what attracted the type who are not shy about kicking you if they don’t like how you are working out. Now they moved to Fractals. Mostly.

But they’re not the issue. I’ll deal with it the same way I did the dungeons – get the guild together one night and go to it.

The issue is now the effect on the community.

Narcemus.1348:

Well the Caromi enforcing the isolation may not be a sign that they are evil, only that they, perhaps, are following their orders like good soldiers (blood legion).

Well, what if the tengu tribes are no longer the same as we knew? Unified into just “the tengu”? That’s an interesting thought.

Narcemus.1348:

It is scenery and spell FYI.

But yes, Divinity’s Reach would be awesome to see under seige, from either side. Though I don’t think I want to wish that on either the people of Shaemoor or humanity in general, who have already lost so much.

The human ranger I play would completely agree.

The charr warrior thinks they haven’t lost enough.

Vlaxitov.5693:

RoChan.1926:

Vlaxitov.5693:

…and theres the fallacy that Candyland or Chutes & Ladders can be just as fun as Monopoly or Risk.

easy =/= fun

RoChan.1926:

Actually what you’ve said is a fallacy. All games are equally as fun as the next, it’s the expectations and how you approach the games that can make them not fun. An easy game can be just as fun as a hard game.

Personal rewards =/= difficulty of play.

So you’re basically saying that all games are created equal and as long as I approach Candyland with the mentality of a 4 year old that it can be just as fun as Risk while calling what I said fallacious? Oh the irony..

No, its not how you approach a game that makes it fun. That might help contribute to it being fun but in the end its either fun or not for other reasons than “my approach.”

Then you come through with a total strawman that personal rewards =/= difficulty of play. That notion is also a fallacy because video games have been keeping score pretty much ever since video games have existed. Almost all games keep score. High score in pacman or tetris is nothing more than a personal reward and it definately relates directly to the difficulty of play. I don’t know who you think you’re fooling.

Its only been the more recent mmos that have brough about a line of thinking that this genre of game is really all about messaging the players ego by providing a game environment that makes believe that even the guy who doesen’t have the hand eye coordination to play mary had a little lamb on a fisher price toy piano nor the attention span of a gnat is still winning like charlie sheen at video games.

Game makers (particularly mmos developers) still being in the business of making money are doing that I think begrudgingly out of necessity ever since the genre became mega commercialized. People like you who come to their forums and try to say things like “rewards =/= challenge therefore challenge =/= fun” are their new target audience. Sad times for actual gamers.

Noooo, what they said was Candyland can be as fun as Risk. Not necessarily to you. and not in the same times. I mean, unless it was like a couple buddies of mine who decided it would be hilarious to drag it out with a bottle of rum and shotglasses.

. . . come to think of it, that did make that pretty fun. More fun than the last time I played Risk.

So yeah, it kind of is how you approach a game which is going to determine if you have fun. “Let’s get piss drunk and play Candyland” versus “oh God not Risk again . . . just put it away, we know who’s winning that . . . again”. One of those times I will very likely not have fun while the other it’s more likely I’ll have fun. At least until I sober up, then I will wonder what possessed me to do that.

And sure, there are outside problems which can contribute to a game not being fun. Like your dog running off with the dice. Your buddy knocking the board and jumbling up how many armies were on the board and where they were during a tense Risk standoff. A really really pissed off card gamer flipping the table.

Is Candyland or Chutes and Ladders the same level of play as Monopoly or Risk? Heck no. Does that mean they can’t be fun? . . . if you said yes, please tell me why.

Also, there are a couple games that don’t keep a high score and are just “did you finish?” The Dragon Quest series, the Final Fantasy series, UFO: Enemy Unknown, Pokemon . . . I’ll name one more for good measure. Portal. For extra credit, Ultima 4. (It’s freeware now, I recommend it so long as you can put up with ancient graphics) Video games don’t have to keep score anymore. Heck even Mega Man stopped that after the first game.

Rewarding does not mean challenging, but the reverse doesn’t hold true. A challenging game can be rewarding in the sense of “I finally beat Ninja Gaiden” or “Thank God I don’t have to play any more Battletoads.” But a challenging game doesn’t necessarily mean it’s fun either. (See: Deadly Towers. Yes. I owned it once, because it was 50 cents at a used store. I still feel cheated.)

I play games if they’re fun or until I get bored with them, then I move on to the next thing. Right now, it’s Guild Wars 2 and some other stupid game about playing with blocks. Craftmine or something. Next it’ll be something different, and I’ll eventually get bored with that and move on too.

SHM.7628:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Moddo.7105:

lordkrall.7241:

It is worth sticking with.
Most of the negativity is overreacting and most of it comes from the same group of people.
Also keep in mind that happy customers tend to play the game and such instead of shouting about things on the forums.

You know Every game that has failed people have said this. Do you know that you are doing Anet no favors by you falling into typical human reaction of thinking you are in the majority. Same thing happened to GoP during last election and is still happening. People think their views are only right ones and thus everyone must have them. So from now on state your opinion and leave it at that. Don’t make up fantasy situations that you can have no idea if true or not.

Of course every game that has failed has had people say this. Because, well, everything ends eventually. So, since everything ends eventually all you have to do to ensure “every game that has failed has had people say that” is pop on all the forums which exist and say this. Eventually the game will fail and you’ll be completely correct.

About the only game which hasn’t failed, yet, is Nethack.

I’d hardly call GW1 a failure. Sure it declined because of its age, but it didn’t fail, It had longevity. Failing and ending are two different things. I do think GW2 is failing ATM. It’s certainly not meeting its potential. Perhaps they can salvage it.

I guess the only real measure of success or failure would be the cash shop. Only they know how that is doing. Happy players spend money. I never spent a dime there. However, I would have gladly supported them if I was happy (and they offered something i wanted.)

Maybe this is a tangent, but they just offered junk imo. Perhaps someguild housing that offered free waypoint travel. Perhaps a golem banker that was permanent. I’d even buy account bound exotics/ legendaries. Sadly, none of that was offered and I was dissatisfied with the game anyway.

They sure as heck weren’t going to offer free waypoint use or Exotics for cash :P I think you expected way too much out of the cash shop.

And Guild Wars 1 is still going. For now. But it will get shut down eventually, that’s a solid prediction. Eventually. Not tomorrow, not next month but one day in the distant future it will end.

(And watch, Nethack will still be here. There’s no justice.)

Gehenna.3625:

Well you can call the blue sky pink if you want to, but the fact is that they did stop putting work into GW2 and pulled people from GW1 to do it. If they ran out of ideas, ok but I think that was more of an excuse to explain the shift to GW2. The content you refer to that was added later was hardly new content. It was the best they could do with minimal resources, although I will say it wasn’t all bad. Just minimal and war in kryta was far better than the rest at that.

People keep bringing the manifesto up but that’s Anet’s own fault. I don’t even care what exactly they did or didn’t say in the sense that I mostly care that they said A and are now doing B. That means they have nothing to stop them when pressure comes. It’s a matter of spine and character. It’s not important if you agree with it or not, but it was Anet themselves setting themselves up for disaster when they make bold claims and at the first sign of trouble do a 180. That I find more disturbing than the actual direction they are taking with this game.

I would hardly classify Winds of Change as “minimal” . . . it seemed more impactful than War in Kryta, I just never finished it. As for “you can call the blue sky pink” . . . I will call it pink. At sunset or sunrise. When it’s pink. Don’t be snide, please.

Aaaand now you had to go and keep up with the manifesto stuff. (Sigh) I’ve heard the bits and pieces of quotes from the designers, and I read the manifesto. Again, freshly this time so I could see if I could spot the absolute “we will never ever do this we absolutely pinky-double-dog-swear” that people said they lied against.

I can’t seem to find it.

The closest that comes is this:

It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

Three criteria.
A – Force you onto a grinding treadmill.
B – Spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun.
C – No monthly fee.

C is demonstrably still being kept, so it can’t be that one. Nobody can really prevent B from being false, since you probably do have hours to prepare making sure you have the free time to play later. Or maybe you spend hours reading up on stuff and studying what you want to do so you know what you’re in for. So, okay, they screwed up on B like everyone ever will from now until the end of time now that the Internet is here and the information is out there.

On A . . . yeah, I know this is the one that everyone loves to talk about. And everyone gets pedantic about what exactly these words mean, and whether they can be interpreted one way or another . . . and what the meaning of “onto” is. Thing is, there’s no more grind than I was doing in GW1. Slaver’s Exile was the second grindiest dungeon . . . is that a word? Screw it, I’ll make it one.

Slaver’s Exile was the second grindiest slog I’ve had to do in GW1 and the first was Domain of Anguish: Foundry of Failed Creations. I went to these places because they were hard, challenging, and I hadn’t done them yet. I ran myself at these things twice a week trying to figure out an edge with my play style. I briefly flirted with going to check for builds to run before I stopped myself and just gave up until the guild was doing it.

This isn’t any different from how I treated Fractals of the Mists. And the sad thing is, I don’t even need to do it, really. There’s cool rings and a piece to craft a back slot item which is neat, and it takes a ton of resources and time I don’t have. Guess what? Its shelved until I get bored enough with GW2 like I was with GW1 when I decided DoA and Slaver’s needed to get done. I don’t need the rings or back piece THAT badly. I’ll wait for the rest of the Ascended stuff to get released before judging whether or not I want to chase that (probably not, though).

. . . nobody is forcing me onto this path. Nobody is making me do Fractals or not do Fractals other than myself.

I’d say he kept point A.