Guild Wars 2

Enzomiles.6197:

I see a lot of posts on how big the difference will be between exotice and ascended gear stats. I’ve seen 10%, 20%, all the way up to 40%. I have no cluse what the real answer is but it reminds me of this joke.

A man asks a woman if she would be willing to sleep with him if he pays her an exorbitant sum. She replies affirmatively. He then names a paltry amount and asks if she would still be willing to sleep with him for the revised fee. The woman is greatly offended and replies as follows:

She: What kind of woman do you think I am?

He: We’ve already established that. Now we’re just haggling over the price.

I remember that joke . . .

I’ll share a quote from some book I read once

“In my experience, the trouble with oaths of the form, death before dishonor, is that eventually, given enough time and abrasion, they separate the world into just two sorts of people: the dead, and the forsworn. ”

Ualtar.5047:

I think the point of guilds is the same in GW2 as it is in any other MMO. Your points could be said in any game to be honest. In all MMOs the point of guilds is to allow you to congregate with like minded people. In my case, that is a guild of people mostly in our 30s that want a nice peaceful mature environment. For other people it might be a group of people that all want to swear like sailors. For yet others it might be PvP that draws them together. That is the point of guilds, everything else is just a bonus.

Exactly, it did confuse me if the question was meant for Guild Wars or just in general . . . so I gave a generalized answer

Dead.7385:

Grinding mats = Not fun. Period. End of story. Thats why it is a grind. Now some grind can be fun in the form of Fractals to test yourself to see “how far can I go deal”, toss in a leaderboard and that section is set forever.

But killing easily killed mobs for days and days? Thats not fun nor engaging. Let me put it like this: A bot can “grind mats” better than ANY player for the fact they can do it 24/7. When that happens (bots with NO human control nor hacks) it becomes a snooze fest. No challenge. That isn’t fun at all. Especiall when you have DR hitting you making it so “you have to grind, but don’t grind too long or else we will hurt your grinding of mats which are so high you have to grind out for” – get it?

The form of “how far can I go before I need to stop” was the basis of the “Challenge Missions” of GW1 from Factions onwards. The reward was points or special loot which was desired (but, yes, mostly cosmetic). And okay, the one for the Cloth of the Brotherhood was less “how far can I go” and more “when does it end?!”.

Also, “grinding” material has now been rewritten as “farming” material. Because there’s a distinction in the definitions apparently, I don’t find it that clear though. You “grind” if it’s for progress or you “farm” for objects, I think. Someone can better explain it than I.

Finally, I may not be 100% sure on this, but the “Diminishing Returns” mechanic is meant to encourage you to move on and do something else after a time rather than sit in the same spot. (What it actually does is make people fume because they had an efficient thing going and now they have to pack it up and leave.) I know there’s some of the Tier 6 materials dropping in Southsun Cove, hoping that the place can be built up a bit more so there’s more attraction to it.

Edit: Fixed the quote code

mulch.2586:

Merthax.5172:

The mechanical advantage of the increase in stats from ascended will be fairly small once aggregated with naked stats, traits, and slots for which ascended doesn’t exist (yet?).

The problem is that it’s going to have a big influence on the mindset of the in-game community. For a lot of people, gameplay is going to focus on acquiring that higher tier gear, even though the benefit is small. Likewise, it’s going to add a sense of elitism in grouping…if they’re even running other content at all. What this ends up doing is dividing the community.

It isn’t the mechanics of the change so much as it is the meta-game aspects that bother me. If I could find a server that had a community that largely eschewed ascended gear and maintained the attitude of running fractals “just for kicks,” I think the addition of the gear would become transparent.

Mindset is a big deal. Especially with a playerbase that really doesn’t understand how the stats figure in, and a game that lacks a DPS parser.

So some people react because they really just wanted something to work on, and this, no matter how trivial, is something to work on.

Other people react into panic mode about a gear treadmill without taking note of how very flat this treadmill is.

My hope in putting this thread up was to give a way that doesn’t rely on players doing algebra, and give some concrete information about how little the gear matters — in hopes of getting a more relaxed atmosphere about it in the community.

That won’t quiet the people who are saying “no increase at all or you broke your promise” while waving links of the manifesto.

And before someone chimes in – they might have a point, but you can go about it better than loading a question so any answer is going to be bad. “Why have you betrayed your manifesto?” Loads the question. “Why did you introduce this, if your manifesto says…” is less presumptive.

A much better (compound) question(s) at this point? “Would you introduce this again given the negative reaction which arose? If so, would you make any change to the method in which it was introduced?”

JarekCyphus.7068:

Lucky Thirteen X.4210:

Ok, since my last post got an infraction, let me add a more meaningful post. Why I quoted the other user was to agree that the game cannot seek to thrive by making itselfr look like or a clone of another game. It should instead focus on what makes it unique, WvW & PvE, and focus on that instead of gear grinding and one time events for l33t gear that a good portion of the player base does not like.

Better? :-D

Much, and I agree with you 100%.

Oh, and…so has Penny Arcade, long before Guild Wars 2 ever came out.

Not to be pedantic . . . okay, to be pedantic . . .

That’s Extra Credits. Affiliated with but not run by Penny Arcade

Moddo.7105:

This is same way Federal Goverment has taken so much power and our money away from us. It starts by just a little and over time adding just a little more is not that bad right?

. . . and yet, there’s a side to that which people keep forgetting. The (United States) Federal Government is not one big amorphous blob. They’re responsible for many . . . many things which we would sorely miss if they stopped handling them.

Sure, you can have them back out of your daily life. But your mail is going to be handled by private companies now who have their own methods and might not get you your mail in the same amount of time. Your utilities might cost more if there’s nobody even potentially overseeing the myriad providers. Then there might not be money for road repair, pipeline repair, bridge repair . . . well maybe there will be if you want to pay an increased local tax since now there’s no funding to be had from a Federal Government.

. . . and then there’s the Internet . . . you probably are gonna have more problems with local providers blocking access to certain networks if there’s no Federal Government to tell them “don’t do that”.

Please, for the love of kittens and puppies, stop bringing real world politics into these whole things.

Edit: Typo

The “point” of guilds is to get a bunch of people together who like to play together or just hang out and chatter. The vault, the banners, the extra doo-dads which weren’t in GW1 . . . or earlier games . . . are really more like bonuses you can get if you want. You don’t really have to have them.

My guild/alliance exists pretty much as a bunch of people who are smart, witty, funny, and interested in doing things together and helping each other out.

(Or we think we’re smart, witty, funny, but it’s okay, we don’t care if we’re not. We just have fun.)

In my opinion, that’s one good reason to make a guild.

Well I could tell you but then I’d have to kill you. Whisper Agents take this seriously you know.

(It’s in Bloodtide Coast, look for a cave with a skill point Agent outside it.)

Rezzet.3614:

i dont see what the problem is the gear-threadmill is not a problem in this game because you are NOT being charged 20$ monthly and being forced to play and its not like the new gear triples in power compared to the current gear the diferences are minimal, but yeah what the hell is rong with new things in game over time if we are NOT being charged at all for them.

It’s not “wrong” . . . not in a fundamental way, taken on its own.

The problem comes in when you start taking the one fact “It’s okay to add new things to the game” and people don’t like that new thing. Now you have a problem, partly in the fact you added something which was unpopular with some people and partly in the fact there’s players who are not happy with you now.

How do you solve it? Well if it was that simple, you just take it back out, say “oops” and go on with your work.

Now, the problem compounds when part of the players don’t want you to remove it. Who cares what the reason is, the crucial part is there are at least two groups in opposition over the simple “we added this”.

How do you solve this problem?

It gets better, though. Say now that when you added this you firmly thought “this will be cool” and your idea wasn’t received well. (This is also a gross understatement).

How do you solve it now?

Edit: Hint – You’re not going to make everyone happy in the last two options. It’s just not happening. We’re now back to square one – you have a problem

Columba.9730:

StormGryffen.7638:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Please . . . don’t get into a system of trying to measure loyalty . . . THAT is something that never ends well because then you get people saying they’re the TRUE fans because of A, while a bunch of other people say THEY are the REAL fans because they oppose A.

They both care about the game, and disagree vehemently on one point. They are both loyal to the game, but not in agreement.

I apologize. I now recognize the bad taste in the question. Its only that I see two or three people acting like they’re the exclusive loyal playerbase and it flies in the face of logic to me. I’ve conceded before and I’ll concede again that there are some good points to be made about the criticism regarding changes inherent in the recent update, I suppose I’ve just made myself wary of all the heavy-handedness by reading these forums too long. I’ll delete the post, and I hope that no one will take the question personally.

I refer to the people who stayed loyal to GW1 and purchased this game based on what was promised. Not the people who had no idea what the game promised, no experience with GW1 and asked the game to be something other than what it was. I consider the former brand loyalists.

And again, a shining example. This time of why we should stay away from trying to dissect "loyalty’, thank you Columba.

There are several dozen types of loyalty you can start easily dissecting down into, and you can dissect them even further . . . and that’s not in and of itself a bad thing. The problem comes in for things like this:

“I am more loyal than X because X is a BRAND LOYALIST and I have PRINCIPLES.”

. . . now, nobody’s said this outright yet in this thread and I want to keep it that way. No one person is worth more or less than another person. Except for me, I’m utter trash.

Moddo.7105:

lordkrall.7241:

It is worth sticking with.
Most of the negativity is overreacting and most of it comes from the same group of people.
Also keep in mind that happy customers tend to play the game and such instead of shouting about things on the forums.

You know Every game that has failed people have said this. Do you know that you are doing Anet no favors by you falling into typical human reaction of thinking you are in the majority. Same thing happened to GoP during last election and is still happening. People think their views are only right ones and thus everyone must have them. So from now on state your opinion and leave it at that. Don’t make up fantasy situations that you can have no idea if true or not.

Of course every game that has failed has had people say this. Because, well, everything ends eventually. So, since everything ends eventually all you have to do to ensure “every game that has failed has had people say that” is pop on all the forums which exist and say this. Eventually the game will fail and you’ll be completely correct.

About the only game which hasn’t failed, yet, is Nethack.

Munrock.3092:

If you don’t know what a manifesto is, look it up. Examples include the GNU Manifesto and The United States Declaration of Independence.

Can we not bring the Declaration of Independence into this? That may open a can of political worms I really think would derail this topic harshly.

Gehenna.3625:

ref.8196:

Why should farming require skill?

It tends to be less boring if you have to pay attention to what you’re doing.

. . . less boring, yes, still very monotonous. Also, it required skill because most of the skill-less “auto farm” techniques were being actively quashed by ANet’s balancing team.

(And you’d better believe there was crap about that too.)

Gehenna.3625:

In GW1 I played over 6000 hours and farmed a lot of stuff cause I wanted to.
In GW2 I didn’t make it to even 600 hours because I feel I have to farm and do it only where Anet wants me to do it.

This difference is there because all gear in GW1 was the same level. So you could choose where to farm and what for. Even if it wasn’t efficient, it didn’t matter because it didn’t put you at a disadvantage.

That is the main difference for me.

Ehh, in my opinion the difference was there because there was less complexity in the game and what the grind/farm (I’ll use that since it’s hard to be sure if it’s a grind or a farm, I’m getting fuzzier on the meaning) could get you. Generally it wasn’t materials . . . it was straight-up cash or things to transform into cash.

(Or it was title track points. Which was a heck of a lot more grind-y than going out to farm/grind for cash. There are ways to do it faster but it still takes A WHILE.)

I farmed in GW1 as it was all that was left to do for me I hit Legendary Guardian, Legendary Cartographer, Legendary Skill Hunter and after that anything more was going to be a grind or a farm.

If I’m doing it in GW2 it’s for basically the same reason. I hit my 100% Map Completion and stalled out on my Personal Story since it’s in Orr now and I overdosed on Risen doing the completion.

Shadow Blade.1324:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

“You have to grind the dungeons to get the gear to keep up.”

So is it the gear, or the dungeons?

pretty sure its the “You have to grind to keep up.”

I can grasp that, but it always seems to change when the argument is brought up. The dungeon is the problem, the gear is the problem . . . if you’re going to point to the grind as a problem then you need to address the grind and not the result.

Okay, you should address the grind instead of the results. You don’t need do do anything, really. But you should really consider it . . .

Say they do this.: Solve the grind. Not the gear, not the dungeon, but the grind. Would it then be acceptable?

Predator.7321:

I feel sorry for places like Hoelbrak and Rata Sum(although this was a extremely confusing place) which required alot of effort and time for the devs, but I feel it’s all going to waste because of Lion’s Arch
Lion’s arch simply provides everything for you so why stay in beginning areas. I think Anet should provide some incentive to stay in your homeland

We took a comment about the beautiful art design like this . . .

. . . and we turned it into a discussion about the Fractals and grind.

My God, what have we become?!

= = = = =

On topic, I’m more a fan of Divinity’s Reach ankittenotally trying to measure it every time i stop in so I can tell exactly how many meters it is. For research.

Fozee.1083:

I see a disturbing lack of “I think” and “I believe” in this thread. People, you don’t know the majority of the things you’re writing here. You’re probably not the professionals the industry hires to figure out what the players want. What YOU want is not necessarily “what the players want”.

Ever think that perhaps it isn’t ANet that’s out of touch, it’s us?

Every goshdarned day I wonder about that, and my eyes drift to Minecraft where I wonder if it’s worth it to get back on that and grind . . .er . . . explore for more Lava so i can complete my Obsidian monument.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Please . . . don’t get into a system of trying to measure loyalty . . . THAT is something that never ends well because then you get people saying they’re the TRUE fans because of A, while a bunch of other people say THEY are the REAL fans because they oppose A.

They both care about the game, and disagree vehemently on one point. They are both loyal to the game, but not in agreement.

Agreed. That is like the multitude of posts you see on any MMO forum: claiming that the “majority” of other players agree with the poster; that the poster’s guild is down in numbers, so the game as a whole is and is thus doomed; or that XFire numbers are indicative of total population.

On the other hand, I was surprised at ANet’s claim that the Ascended gear was put in to satisfy “some of our most dedicated players” who already had their Ascended and dungeon sets, and were bored. Seems to me like this statement is drawing a conclusion about dedication, which is very much akin to loyalty in my eyes. I know it was just PR speak, but it was a mistake.

You must mean “already had their Legendary and dungeon sets” because Ascended didn’t exist before Ascended

And yeah, I totally am not going to go into the announcement wording. I think the delays in hearing anything is because they’re trying to avoid saying something which will be leapt on and disemboweled . . . of course, now it’s bound to happen anyway

Gehenna.3625:

Add to that less flexibility in swapping builds (traits cannot be reset anywhere you are nor for free) as was possible in GW1 so there was a real point in having at least 2 armour sets for different builds. It just fit together.

That wasn’t in vanilla GW1, that got added later. There used to be “refund points”. Boy was that annoying.

Link: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attribute_Refunds

Not all ideas in the start of a game are good, and later additions might be good for it. Thing is, we don’t know at the moment, we can just assume and extrapolate what’s coming or what’s going to be the result once this gets finished.

. . . ArenaNet, if you survive this, and the game is still here when you have the idea to do this again? Please please please don’t split it into a couple parts again?

Leablo.2651:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The grind which was NOT optional was in Factions. “Befriending the Kurzicks/Luxon” required you to get 10,000 Faction for the one of your choice. Before you did that quest the cap you could earn was . . . 10,000. And it was a load of slogging through places with the blessings on. And for bonus points, you couldn’t proceed with Factions until you did that.

Likewise (although I didn’t have so much trouble with this) if you were not native to Elona, there was a requirement to achieve a certain rank of Sunspear title to proceed. I got it as I did cartography “first pass” through all of Istan and doing the missions, so . . . others probably had a tougher time of it.

Uh, no. The Factions requirement could easily be completed by doing the quests – as intended – for the respective faction. Between the reward points for the quests, the initial faction missions that got you there, and the killing that you did between quests, you would get to 10,000 more or less automatically (in fact, for Kurzick you could get all 10,000 just from questing), unless you did something stupid like spend the points while you were trying to build them up. It also bears noting that faction was account-wide; you could earn it very quickly by playing on a PvP character in JQ/FA and that would help fulfill the campaign requirement. If you did that, you could also increase your cap by 10,000 without even touching the campaign.

And for Nightfall, the Sunspear rank requirement for foreign characters was actually removed shortly after release (what this tells us is that you don’t play campaigns much), but even so, the introductory quests gave you a ton of Sunspear points and took you almost all the way to the required rank, and from there you only had to do local quests to get the rest.

None of the things you mention required grinding, or even in the worst case only a tiny bit of grinding to make up for suboptimal play. If you had to do a lot of grinding for these things, you messed up. If you hate doing quests, that’s a different issue, but these requirements did not force anyone to grind. As designed, these requirements were just token gates to prevent runners from rushing people through the whole campaign. A person who played to experience the content wouldn’t even notice these things come up.

Hey, remember the party line for the people speaking out on Ascended gear as a treadmill! Any amount is an amount!

And I did I was in from the second week of Prophecies . . . but it was still called “grinding out Faction/Sunspear” for those particular gates. For me, it was never an issue as the Faction gain was a side effect of me both doing quests and doing my cartography in the areas.

So to be uncharitable, I bypassed one grind by doing another

Fortuna.7259:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fortuna.7259:

Will you listen to yourself? They said it is a one time thing but they reserved the right to do it again?

OK, I’ll just stop right there.

Yeah that was badly stated. What they said was “we don’t have plans to do this every 3 months” and everyone is assuming all sorts of implications into what he said or didn’t say.

- Just because he said 3 months, he must be looking to do it earlier/later. (Correct, he didn’t. But that just assumes he’s out to lie to you in the first place, so why assume he keeps his word at all?)

Well said. Why assume it at all? I don’t believe stuff that leads people to conclusions such as “it is a one time thing that they might do again.” That just demonstrates what doublespeak it really is. Hence my opinion that at best that whole thing says nothing at all.

(Why is it always “well said” when I point out words the articles have which aren’t definitive, but when I call out people saying the article definitely said X I’m not worth listening to and don’t know what I’m talking about?)

:)

Kymaera Stormweaver.1069:

A few comments & corrections on those UO statements:

UO did start to sink and get “silly”, ie Trammel, Cast Times altered, Insurance, Artifacts, Magic Resist change to armor resist, etc.

Ultima Online never said they were a PvE(PvM) game, it was strictly open world until the Renaissance Patch introduced Trammel to widen the playerbase to those who sought safety and wanted to PvE (aka PvM in UO). Sadly that introduction killed it for many of the players who had bought and payed monthly for what the game was known for.
UO was sold as an open world mmorpg where you could kill anyone, loot anyone, speak to in-game customer support, role play, own homes, form communities, form guilds, declare war/peace on other guilds, steal from others, Order/Chaos fight, etc. It was sold as a mmorpg where the community drove the content, not the otherway around, that we see today: The content drives the community.

Ultima Online didn’t have a different kind of hate for it’s playerbase. The playerbase altered the game to fit their “care-bear” outlook on what a games model should be, and it set the tone for every mmorpg you play today.

Or…you can simply blame EA. After Origins sold UO to EA, that’s when things really started going bad.

Ehhh, we can disagree on a couple points. (Except that it did decline. I got out sometime after I was mugged and hunted down until my house collapsed and was looted. But that’s another story.)

I will point out your comment about “the community drove the content”, and say if the end result is the game driving away a lot of the customers . . . it’s not much better than the content driving the community Game still fails.

. . . but I’ll always have Vesper and my log cabin in the woods two minutes from one of the Valorite veins. (sniff)

Merthax.5172:

The idea behind buying the gifts is that you could get more than the account maximum per week (or was it per day?). If I remember, your account was limited to only getting 5 per week.

Yes, true, but people weren’t buying the gifts to hoard as a commodity . . .

. . . okay, MOST people weren’t. I’m reminded of a guildmate who did just that for a couple weeks :P

Anyway, they bought the gifts to open them in the hopes what they wanted would be inside. Instead, I got a rock (Mysterious Summoning Stones, I still have 243 I think and I USED them all the time).

Asglarek.8976:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

Its one tier to many.

Its only been out 3 months you know how long it took wow to release its t1 its been out 8 years now what tier is WOW on now 13, 14? At AN’s rate in 8 years they will be on par with WOW.

You really think they will stop at ascended, seriously? Gear grind is that huge avalanche that starts out as a snowflake.

No, I don’t really believe they are definitely going stop at Ascended gear. Probably because they left the option open in their statements.

Yes, I think this tier being released in parts this distant was a mistake, only because of the division it’s starting to cause.

Yes, I think it might possibly be good for the game if the designers make certain decisions in the future.

No, that doesn’t mean I think it will definitely be good for the game.

(No, Mom, I’m not on the phone with that girl down the street. Yes, I know she has a boyfriend.)

Yes, I notice there is a statistical increase.

No, I don’t think the jump is as severe as people say it is.

Yes, you only get the new armor from Fractals.

Yes, they said they planned on releasing other methods.

No, they haven’t done it yet.

No, that doesn’t mean they won’t do it.

Yes, I am currently not playing the game.

(Yes, it is because I am compiling a Minecraft render. And baking a pie.)

Yes, I am quite likely a blithering idiot.

Yes, I know what my wife was up to last Thursday and you leave her out of this.

Have I missed anything?

StormGryffen.7638:

I apologize. I now recognize the bad taste in the question. Its only that I see two or three people acting like they’re the exclusive loyal playerbase and it flies in the face of logic to me. I’ve conceded before and I’ll concede again that there are some good points to be made about the criticism regarding changes inherent in the recent update, I suppose I’ve just made myself wary of all the heavy-handedness by reading these forums too long. I’ll delete the post, and I hope that no one will take the question personally.

Thank you, very much I am very much with you on that last point . . . I think there’s actual good points which can be made. I just wish they could be made without one side demonizing the other.

Cancer.9065:

I made money for HoM by doing Nicks gift, royal gifts,and Zkeys only. Wish I had something similar here… not something to make a lot of easy money just something that was steady and enough to get an exotic set per week.

Edit
RNG does not equal steady. nicks gifts were a bit RNG but it wasn’t too bad.

Nick’s gifts were also usually sold unopened on the idea “you COULD get a Mini Yakkington!” or whatever people were really after. For me it was Party Animal points but I would always balk at “Nic Gifts for 750g each!” when I could look up what he wanted and where he was before getting it myself.

Me? I sold dyes I had the most interesting number of Dye drops every UW run. I think one time I got a white and a black (and two yellow) but no Ectoplasm.

And I’d rather not have that exact type of thing added here. For one, the only things which might be comparable to the trophies Nick wanted are the grey trash drops and making it rely on them is . . . about as random as relying on some Rare/Exotic drop like “Large Skull”. Or Slivers/Fragments/etc.

Scavenger hunts, however, I’d be on board for. They did say they had them planned, hope they’re interesting enough.

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Please . . . don’t get into a system of trying to measure loyalty . . . THAT is something that never ends well because then you get people saying they’re the TRUE fans because of A, while a bunch of other people say THEY are the REAL fans because they oppose A.

They both care about the game, and disagree vehemently on one point. They are both loyal to the game, but not in agreement.

Fortuna.7259:

Will you listen to yourself? They said it is a one time thing but they reserved the right to do it again?

OK, I’ll just stop right there.

Yeah that was badly stated. What they said was “we don’t have plans to do this every 3 months” and everyone is assuming all sorts of implications into what he said or didn’t say.

- Just because he said 3 months, he must be looking to do it earlier/later. (Correct, he didn’t. But that just assumes he’s out to lie to you in the first place, so why assume he keeps his word at all?)

- Just because he said 3 months, he didn’t say about never doing it again. (Correct, but you don’t use the word “never” if you’re talking about a future you might not have fully solidified yet. They may not put it in, or the game may be closed in two days. Or they may put it in when they introduce an expansion 6-9 months down the line. We definitely don’t know, he probably isn’t sure, which means . . . he won’t say “never”.)

Columba.9730:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Columba.9730:

Why is a gear grinder considered an insult?

I don’t know, it’s certainly carrying that connotation lately around here. Saying basically “if you want to grind for gear, for any reason at all, you are not welcome”.

Actually, I see the opposite. If you don’t like grinding dungeons, you are not welcome.

Columba.9730:

Well the ascendants are only available in the dungeons. so yes, you must grind them now.

I’ll just leave this here.

morrolan.9608:

Jrunyon.3012:

W
WvW
- Gear means nothing since most of the time its about who has the bigger group

This is incorrect since WvW is evolving into multiple smaller groups.

Yeah, but for a reason. It’s easier to be mobile and stealthy when you have a smaller group. If you’re more mobile, and your opponent doesn’t see you coming you can slip in, do your work, and get out before they come back. I’ve seen this done primarily to flip supply camps so a keep can be starved out. Or “right before the tick, we take SG and VL”. (Yes I probably have two on different maps, but I don’t have them up right now.)

Most of the time I’ve been playing it’s been more that straight confrontations are avoided except in keep sieges where you’re looking at “not small groups”.

By the way, I do agree that WvW isn’t solely about large group vs small group. But it’s part of it anyway.

Columba.9730:

Yet, they didn’t change the specs post purchase.

Yet, doesn’t matter, I’m still getting the startup telling me my hardware is under minimum specifications.

Again, this seems a far better analogy than the current discussion, doesn’t it?

Columba.9730:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Columba.9730:

xero.2097:

Why are people so upset with GW 2 now?

I frankly don’t get it.

It was only months ago people were having a blast
-Exploring vast stretches of land.
-Running dungeons.
-Working to make legendaries.
-Doing world events.
-PvP
-Leveling Alts, seeing the stories

I ask because I recall these were many of the things cited to do in GW 2 when people explained they were upset that there was “nothing to do at endgame”

From whatI understand, all the above listed things are still there, the only difference is for those whom wish to go to the millstone now have that option.

I do not see how gear progression has taken that away from anyone unless the people doing the above always had a preference for gear progression and as such thats what they are now doing, leaving those whom never wanted gear progression out in the cold so to speak.

Because I now must grind gear to enjoy WvWvW. I don’t like getting curb stomped by players with 20-50% better gear.

And I don’t enjoy being curb stomped by people with better computers than me, but I don’t feel I have to “grind” in real life to afford a better computer to still get stomped.

first, computer specs needed are disclosed before you purchased. secondly, that is outside the control of the game.

First, I was within the specs disclosed as of BW3. After release I was not within specs, still can’t figure out how since everyone is telling me the specs never changed.

Secondly, it is outside the control of gear. The game still controls it, and it’s still a grind because every year hardware goes up in power and potency and more expensive. If I want to remain competitive then I have to keep buying new computer gear to keep up with everyone else.

(Yes, it sounds ludicrous, doesn’t it? But it’s the same argument, and it happens to be able to be proven.)

Columba.9730:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Columba.9730:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Columba.9730:

Jrunyon.3012:

Columba.9730:

The math clearly shows that the stats on these items are 20-50% higher than those on exotics. don’t buy the propaganda that says that these differences are trivial. The gear grinders will throw all sorts of other nonsense in to confuse the issue.

And you are clearly trolling. And if youre actually serious then I think you should probably just uninstall the game, the community is better off without you.

So you resort to personal attacks when you cannot present a legitimate counter argument? Ok.

So did you, referring to me as a “gear grinder”. Who, mind you, has a grand total of two Exotic pieces being worn. One of which is a fricking box.

Why is a gear grinder considered an insult?

I don’t know, it’s certainly carrying that connotation lately around here. Saying basically “if you want to grind for gear, for any reason at all, you are not welcome”.

Actually, I see the opposite. If you don’t like grinding dungeons, you are not welcome.

. . . dungeons were in the game before this, and people ground dungeons before this for their Exotics. Now that Ascended exists that’s now the target people are saying is what is the problem.

“You have to grind the dungeons to get the gear to keep up.”

So is it the gear, or the dungeons?

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Columba.9730:

plasmacutter.2709:

a 20% increase is still a massive one.

They say they will continue to release new pieces.

This means a complete set with 20% more effectiveness WILL be part of this game if they are not convinced otherwise.

20% more effective stat is essentially a whole new 20 trait points invested in whatever line you choose.

that is HUGE. It is not at all insignificant.

Agreed, don’t listen to the pro-grind propaganda. The new gear, as shown by the posts here are 20-50% higher on the ascended gear. Don’t be fooled by the pro-grind crowd.

The gear is 20-50% higher, perhaps. The overall affect on the stat pool however.

My Ranger has 1846 power currently. He gains +30 upgrading to the Vine of the Pale Tree should he get it .The total stat increase is 1.625135428% when carried to 10 significant digits.

. . . please, explain more how the stats are 20% more effective, higher, or whatever.

I’m sorry, I can’t hear you over the sound of everyone telling me to go DIAF because i’m not “FotM lvl 30… err.. 40… err.. 50.. err.. 60.. err.. what is the new arbitrary ‘infusion requirement’, etc for me to actually PLAY THIS GAME WITH EVERYONE ELSE LIKE ANET ADVERTISED?”

When blizzard pulled something like this it was a deliberate joke for april fools!

Yeah, I’m sorry I can’t hear you over the cries of “you don’t know what you’re talking about so shut up”.

Avatar.1923:

well said Tobias.

insanity is about doing the same thing over and over expecting things to change.

that was a quote from far cry 3 psycopath evil dude

It’s much older than that.

Also, my own analogy is flawed because that game had a much better way of filtering out that content: nobody bought the books or used them in their games. They’s still hop on the forums of the Internet (and did so when it was just BBS systems) and decry it though.

Columba.9730:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Columba.9730:

Jrunyon.3012:

Columba.9730:

The math clearly shows that the stats on these items are 20-50% higher than those on exotics. don’t buy the propaganda that says that these differences are trivial. The gear grinders will throw all sorts of other nonsense in to confuse the issue.

And you are clearly trolling. And if youre actually serious then I think you should probably just uninstall the game, the community is better off without you.

So you resort to personal attacks when you cannot present a legitimate counter argument? Ok.

So did you, referring to me as a “gear grinder”. Who, mind you, has a grand total of two Exotic pieces being worn. One of which is a fricking box.

Why is a gear grinder considered an insult?

I don’t know, it’s certainly carrying that connotation lately around here. Saying basically “if you want to grind for gear, for any reason at all, you are not welcome”.

Avatar.1923:

Tobias;

there is no way the game can keep the massive amout of hardcore players without treadmill and esport.

gw2 want to be the next big thing, and to be that big you need gear treadmill until somebody come up with a better fantasy mmo design.

Well, no. To be the next big thing you need to be the next big thing. Which means the first big thing needs to go down, which would be . . . fill in the blank yourself.

I don’t think the gear treadmill is a necessary component, just a tempting one to get into. So tempting to say:

A – “What if we increased the level cap from 20 to 30?”
B – “What? Madness! How would we balance it? They’d tear right through the old stuff!”
C – “Oh that’s easy, we add a whole bunch of monsters stronger and requiring use of the new 20-30 material.”
B – “Okay . . . and what do you do about each of the classes? I mean, you raise the cap the cleric and wizard have to get more magic and we already said 9th level was the highest.”
C – "Just change how spells work. We’ll call them “epic spells” and they don’t function like normal spells."
A – “. . . that could work, what about the non-caster classes?”
B – “Pffft, nobody plays pure non-caster anymore. Just throw them equipment which should be artifact tier without being so rare.”
D – “Guys? What about the people who don’t want to go to this new level range?”
A – “What about them? Cause, they don’t need to use this stuff. It’s just optional.”

If this sounds familiar, I present to you a theoretical debate over the D&D 3.0 Epic Level Handbook.

Avatar.1923:

Logun.2349:

A week ago I saw a MMO that had a path to endgame for me. Last week I saw a game that saw all players as deserving of endgame content and provided the player with the freedom of choice on what that endgame was going to be.

Today I just see a game that is closing those options, making dungeons the new raids and diminishing its own open world content in the process.

So pretty much lost my drive for the game at the moment until I see what direction this is going I’m off ….NEXT!

a week ago many players complained about “lack of endgame” and “legendary too expensive”.
you know, we have to realize that mmo players are hamsters.
this is how its meant to be.
UO wasnt like that, and unfortunately the hamster model is far more profitable…
the game isnt the problem; its the players

No, UO got kinda silly towards the end. Check out “the Harrower” and how that raid had to happen, for a small patch of loot. And more similar things were added later, encouraging large organized battles PvE style for a limited amount of loot at the end. Also, the top-tiered gear in that game still wasn’t going to be enough to save you if you were properly ambushed – it took skill and knowing how to get away rather than raw stat advantages.

(What is “Properly”? Paralyze, Harm, Poison, Harm. Paralyze, Energy Bolt, Flamestrike . . . Paralyze, Poisoned Weapon strikes on a horse while you didn’t have one . . . and if someone wanted you D-E-D dead, they got a buddy or two to come help. If I recall rightly, three people going “Corp Por” was a sign you were either going to die or need to log off in “safety” very quickly.)

UO also had players who were essentially told by the designers “go ahead and kill other players for their stuff” on the grounds it would be more fun. I quit that game after I had the same group of 5 stake out my mining hut invisible at the times when I’d play and wait for me to come back with the ore. One even said: “Hey, lemme know if you find some Valorite, I need a new BP” to my dead body / ghost.

And to top it off later expansions DID make it possible to overshoot the 100% Grandmaster skill level. Since the game was less about your gear and more about how efficient you were executing your kills? It made a difference.

UO had some good ideas but, my friend, it had a whole different kind of hate for its playerbase.

StormGryffen.7638:

Narkosys.5173:

I also believe that every month will be a release of equip/slot and every 6 months a new tier.

Why do you believe this, good sir or madam?

It’s the same reason that people have run around stating Ascended armor is obviously going to be 20% cooler once it’s released. Extrapolation. And they could be right! They could also be wrong, but don’t say that.

Columba.9730:

xero.2097:

Why are people so upset with GW 2 now?

I frankly don’t get it.

It was only months ago people were having a blast
-Exploring vast stretches of land.
-Running dungeons.
-Working to make legendaries.
-Doing world events.
-PvP
-Leveling Alts, seeing the stories

I ask because I recall these were many of the things cited to do in GW 2 when people explained they were upset that there was “nothing to do at endgame”

From whatI understand, all the above listed things are still there, the only difference is for those whom wish to go to the millstone now have that option.

I do not see how gear progression has taken that away from anyone unless the people doing the above always had a preference for gear progression and as such thats what they are now doing, leaving those whom never wanted gear progression out in the cold so to speak.

Because I now must grind gear to enjoy WvWvW. I don’t like getting curb stomped by players with 20-50% better gear.

And I don’t enjoy being curb stomped by people with better computers than me, but I don’t feel I have to “grind” in real life to afford a better computer to still get stomped.

Leonard.2867:

Sky.1623:

Leonard.2867:

Why did you make this statement? Who was it directed at? What are you referring to?

OP is weighing his personal opinions vs what Anet did. We have access to none of the information they have. It seems dumb to ask them to change something because you don’t like the precedent when we’re not going to talk about all the positive and negative effects on the game.

If I am not mistaken, 90% of the threads on in ‘Guild Wars 2 Discussion’ do this. Does it seem dumb now? Columbus once said the World is round…. what an opinion he had!

Please don’t pull up broken analogies, you’re going to get me started . . . Christopher Columbus said the world was round and completely misinterpreted how large it was. Not even going to touch on how the ancient Grecian philosophers knew the Earth was round anyway.

Columba.9730:

Jrunyon.3012:

Columba.9730:

The math clearly shows that the stats on these items are 20-50% higher than those on exotics. don’t buy the propaganda that says that these differences are trivial. The gear grinders will throw all sorts of other nonsense in to confuse the issue.

And you are clearly trolling. And if youre actually serious then I think you should probably just uninstall the game, the community is better off without you.

So you resort to personal attacks when you cannot present a legitimate counter argument? Ok.

So did you, referring to me as a “gear grinder”. Who, mind you, has a grand total of two Exotic pieces being worn. One of which is a fricking box.

Raine.1394:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Columba.9730:

plasmacutter.2709:

a 20% increase is still a massive one.

They say they will continue to release new pieces.

This means a complete set with 20% more effectiveness WILL be part of this game if they are not convinced otherwise.

20% more effective stat is essentially a whole new 20 trait points invested in whatever line you choose.

that is HUGE. It is not at all insignificant.

Agreed, don’t listen to the pro-grind propaganda. The new gear, as shown by the posts here are 20-50% higher on the ascended gear. Don’t be fooled by the pro-grind crowd.

The gear is 20-50% higher, perhaps. The overall affect on the stat pool however.

My Ranger has 1846 power currently. He gains +30 upgrading to the Vine of the Pale Tree should he get it .The total stat increase is 1.625135428% when carried to 10 significant digits.

. . . please, explain more how the stats are 20% more effective, higher, or whatever.

What you are avoiding is the fact that there will be additional Ascended gear eventually. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the stats on a full set are 20% higher than exotics. The net effect will be an increase of 20%, not 1.625135428%. This should be obvious. And, the degree doesn’t even matter. That point is really moot. As I’ve said elsewhere, it’s the direction that’s the problem not the degree. What we are discussing is vertical progression. GW2 is a game about horizontal progression. My source on this is AreanaNet so take it up with them.

A – You don’t know that yet, we haven’t seen full Asended gear. It could be a total boost of 20% or 200%.

B – Even if it is a boost of 20%, that doesn’t necessarily translate to how it adds into the total. These numbers do not exist in a vacuum, as gear is not the sole effect on your statistics.

C – My point isn’t about the direction, it’s about the continuous claims made without data and only extrapolation. It’s an increase. The severity of that increase is being exaggerated.

bman.1683:

Is anyone aware that the legendary gear is going to be upgraded to ascended level as they continue to release more?

It’s being termed irrelevant for a number of reasons, the largest one being: “it wouldn’t be necessary to do that if Ascended wasn’t introduced in the first place”.

Columba.9730:

plasmacutter.2709:

a 20% increase is still a massive one.

They say they will continue to release new pieces.

This means a complete set with 20% more effectiveness WILL be part of this game if they are not convinced otherwise.

20% more effective stat is essentially a whole new 20 trait points invested in whatever line you choose.

that is HUGE. It is not at all insignificant.

Agreed, don’t listen to the pro-grind propaganda. The new gear, as shown by the posts here are 20-50% higher on the ascended gear. Don’t be fooled by the pro-grind crowd.

The gear is 20-50% higher, perhaps. The overall affect on the stat pool however.

My Ranger has 1846 power currently. He gains +30 upgrading to the Vine of the Pale Tree should he get it .The total stat increase is 1.625135428% when carried to 10 significant digits.

. . . please, explain more how the stats are 20% more effective, higher, or whatever.

Astralporing.1957:

Fozee.1083:

First of all, the prices of things didn’t go up because drop rate was lowered. The prices went up because botting was severely decreased. Higher prices on valuable items is GREAT for casual players (who of course feel entitled to everything) because they can farm for way less time to get the same amount of money.

I’m sorry, but you lost me at the “casual players” and “farm” in the same sentence. Casual players do not sell farmed loot, but rather need to buy it. Lower prices are good for them usually.

. . . I sell farmed loot. If you count “crap, I have 600 Mithril and nothing to do with it but throw some on the TP” as selling farmed loot. Then again I often have a nasty habit of detouring for resource nodes ever since I noticed I was getting more XP from them than a kill provided.

DootmasterX.3025:

This my friends, is also why you asked people to ping their builds.

I asked people to ping builds so I could see what they were doing, ask questions (“Why this skill?”) and then take a moment to look at my bar. If someone else had poison, no point in me bringing it. If there was an interrupt mesmer I would swap for Burning Arrow and tag things with it. If we were going to be basically balling up enemies I would bring Splinter-Barrage.

Someone once asked me to ping my build and said “why do you have a pet? They’re useless”. I said “watch”, and demonstrated what I called “pet pulling”. Send the pet in to take the first hit, res it with Comfort Animal (timed so it fell over and got right back up again), and now that the enemy wasted their first strike sweep in. Most times it worked in PvE, and it had the added benefit sometimes of pulling mobs out of position so someone with another res skill could get in there and save people being corpse-camped.

(It was almost a joke sometimes with alliance groups: “Greyfang works way too hard for this. He should get a break.” “I tried that, he chased some charr up a tree and I had to explain to Pyre it was nothing personal.”)

The one time I did get kicked, it was in Abaddon’s Gate when I offered to join up with a group and missed that I hadn’t turned my Lightbringer title on. So they kicked me assuming I wasn’t going to. I flicked on Holy Lightbringer and they tried inviting me again.

plasmacutter.2709:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Looria.8019:

Mesket.5728:

Forum comunity is not representative for the player base… the real players are there playing and not posting here.

If they are not posting here, that means they dont care about the game.
Players feedback is what every mmo NEEDS to get better, improve, evolve.

Those players who dont bring their opinions to the table about the game and give devs some ideas are useless to the community.

. . . so let’s see, on the one hand I owe it to the game and community to come here and make my opinions known. On the other hand, if I don’t pick a side I don’t deserve to speak . . . yeah.

I’ve put my thoughts up over a half-dozen topics, including some more thoughtful works over at the “human nature” thread. I’ve added to the appeal to please . . . please keep this polite and not overly confrontational. I’ve revised opinions and backtracked once on seeing someone actually volunteer numbers.

In this, I’ve been called an apologist, been told I’m an idiot and not worth listening to, and at least one stellar person had to catch me on an overflow to tell me I was an example of why the game was going to fail and I should go back to grinding in WoW.

(And no, I don’t play WoW.)

So, tell me, in the face of this kind of reaction to trying to hold a fairly MODERATE position . . . why shoulkittenep talking and inviting more of this or worse? With so much of this being “you’re with us or against us” flying around, what is the point to trying?

I still want to be an asset to the community but . . . Kormir on a Spear some of you make this hard.

What are the raw numbers you have gathered?

If you want to calm the fury with empiricism, then I suggest a new thread with real numbers, but don’t be surprised if people don’t agree with your assessment of those numbers.

The numbers are off Dulfy’s site in screenshot format. You can find it, I believe in you …

In short, the ring “Vine of the Pale Tree” has more Power, Vitality, and Critical Damage but not as much Precision as the closest analog, “Ruby Orichalcum Ring”. They figure out to 20% and I was sure it wasn’t as large until I got to look at them side by side myself instead of one and then the other later.

However, my Ranger . . . and I just looked only has 1846 Power. The ring would be a +30 jump, so . . . mmm, round 0.016 upwards . . .

I don’t think this is worth a new thread, though, I’ll just leave this here for people to see. It’s not empiricism, it’s just numbers. I do not know the full extent of how a +30 jump will affect damage output for other characters (though if their base Power is higher than mine is as a Ranger, I’ve got theories).

Looria.8019:

Mesket.5728:

Forum comunity is not representative for the player base… the real players are there playing and not posting here.

If they are not posting here, that means they dont care about the game.
Players feedback is what every mmo NEEDS to get better, improve, evolve.

Those players who dont bring their opinions to the table about the game and give devs some ideas are useless to the community.

. . . so let’s see, on the one hand I owe it to the game and community to come here and make my opinions known. On the other hand, if I don’t pick a side I don’t deserve to speak . . . yeah.

I’ve put my thoughts up over a half-dozen topics, including some more thoughtful works over at the “human nature” thread. I’ve added to the appeal to please . . . please keep this polite and not overly confrontational. I’ve revised opinions and backtracked once on seeing someone actually volunteer numbers.

In this, I’ve been called an apologist, been told I’m an idiot and not worth listening to, and at least one stellar person had to catch me on an overflow to tell me I was an example of why the game was going to fail and I should go back to grinding in WoW.

(And no, I don’t play WoW.)

So, tell me, in the face of this kind of reaction to trying to hold a fairly MODERATE position . . . why shoulkittenep talking and inviting more of this or worse? With so much of this being “you’re with us or against us” flying around, what is the point to trying?

I still want to be an asset to the community but . . . Kormir on a Spear some of you make this hard.

Wasn’t it said on one of the blog posts they were looking at putting new DEs in Southsun? I really hope so, and hope they can get like a waypoint AT LEAST at Cadach’s Folly . . .

I mean I haven’t found a way to use Owain’s waypoint to reach that volcanic plains

Columba.9730:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Kouken.8604:

Why should we be nice? They promised a unique MMO, a gamechanger, and within 3months made a 180, completely ruining this games future,
Game was far from perfect, but atleast the majority of players were in the world, now everyone just stands in LA and spams LFG FOTM LVLX

We have the right to be unhappy, Greed needs to stop stomping on innovation

You should be polite and mature because you expect to be treated like an adult and given honest responses. Say what you will about the game, about how unhappy you are but a little civility and courtesy isn’t beneath anyone here.

I would not walk up to someone on the street I disagreed with and go: “Hey Congressman, what the heck man, you said we’d get new jobs and instead companies moved out of state! You’re a liar and a phony!”

Actually, I have, and I would do it again. They work for us, but they forget it. I won’t let them forget it.

The ArenaNet dev team for Guild Wars 2, however, does not work for you.

And in neither case do they “need” to be treated any less polite than you would wish to be treated.