Guild Wars 2

Kouken.8604:

Why should we be nice? They promised a unique MMO, a gamechanger, and within 3months made a 180, completely ruining this games future,
Game was far from perfect, but atleast the majority of players were in the world, now everyone just stands in LA and spams LFG FOTM LVLX

We have the right to be unhappy, Greed needs to stop stomping on innovation

You should be polite and mature because you expect to be treated like an adult and given honest responses. Say what you will about the game, about how unhappy you are but a little civility and courtesy isn’t beneath anyone here.

I would not walk up to someone on the street I disagreed with and go: “Hey Congressman, what the heck man, you said we’d get new jobs and instead companies moved out of state! You’re a liar and a phony!”

Columba.9730:

No one likes to be treated as a second class citizen. Right now, those of us who loathe dungeon grinds are being oppressed.

Well now we see the violence inherent in the system!

Riots in the street, mass panic, the dead rising from the grave, dogs and cats living together . . .

(. . . actually that sounds a lot like a standard day around Lion’s Arch.)

. . . again, though, this is why it would have been better (in my opinion) to not release this piecemail but “whole hog or none”.

You know, it probably is people running Fractals and not events. I did a couple dungeons and events with a couple guildmates in a party over the week so far, and we got a pretty good chunk of Influence for it. I’ll get the numbers if people are interested.

And it kind of makes a sort of sense? If you want Influence gain, get out in the world and show your guild presence.

RoChan.1926:

[Edit]Sorry Tobias I kinda lost track of what I was trying to say in all that time and editing.
tl;dr: Reward is very subjective since time is hard to calculate. Human nature can often be interchanged with the Human condition causing fractures in the community due to power creeps. A lot of the uproar is really the perception of the loss of choice and not so much the OP or the power creep. However perception is everything, even down to if Ascended gear is good reward of time or not.

I have to use the tl:dr to quote you, otherwise I may not have room to reply

As I’ve said in other threads here, and elsewhere, and to a couple people in game . . . we really don’t know what the plan is. The rollout in phases may have seemed a good idea at the time but the way it turned out shows it probably . . . might have been best to get all the gear into the game at once, limit Fractals to difficulties < 10 until all the Ascended was ready in ways other than Fractals-trips . . . and then release it that way.

However, this isn’t my show to call the shots, and they might have had other considerations for doing it this way. I do not know, I only know what they say and what I would have done.

I think . . . if the gear was more widely available than from through Fractals the "grind’ feeling would have been better alleviated. I think if they were less coy about upcoming content and had explained themselves a little better about how they meant “the gap between Exotic and Legendary” which is thrown around a bit . . .
. . . if they had said this was a prelude to raising the level cap and they wanted this new level to fill “the gap” after they move from 80 to whatever next higher number, then maybe it’d make more sense.

Again, this is speculation and a healthy dose of “if I was there…”
(Assuming I hadn’t taken one look at the outcry and gone: “That’s it, I’m going home.”)

It’s part of why I was adopting “wait and see” and advocating patience. I’m wandering far afield now for this topic. Back on track.

Right now, most of the projections and stories are players trying to be bullies with a stick they figure ANet gave them to swing. It isn’t acceptable, and it’s not ANet who needs to handle that confrontation. If you want this sort of behavior to stop, you need to cut it off somehow else. I’m not talking about playing the social game back (LFG Fractals, casuals only!) I’m talking about . . . not playing that social game and shunning the elitism.

If they can’t get a group anymore and the people they thought were beneath their skill are having a good time . . . sweetest revenge there is. Living well.

I dunno, you know what, if the initial appeal doesn’t suit then try this:

Personal attacks, attacks on character, implications of all sorts of things . . . they won’t bring the devs or anyone else to the table to talk about what you want to talk about. They’ll want to tell you to cut it out, and they’ll be much less inclined to listen to your take on the mess.

It’s even more important to restrain yourself when you players feeling slighted by this take it personally and are emotionally affected. It isn’t easy, but if you want to get their attention in a positive manner . . . this is not the best way.

You can say you think they lied, you can say you feel they betrayed your trust, you can say you are very dissatisfied and need to know why. You can, I’m actually curious what they’ll say myself if they answer.

But mature and reasonable people don’t behave that way.

(Umm.)

. . . but mature and reasonable people shouldn’t behave that way.

You know, King Adelbern is the reason I wanted to do Ascalonian Catacombs.

. . . not because I like him, but because I loathe his attitude and the madness which drove him after the events of Prophecies made him much less someone I liked and more me thinking:

“Someone needs to put a boulder through his face.”

. . . yeah I got to do that. It was fun. Can we get Zehtuka next?

In a more serious note? The character of King Adelbern is just an interesting one. Before the Searing he wasn’t too bad but after? Hoo boy, that mind just kept right on slipping away. “We will never surrender!”

My liege, your kingdom lies in burnt ruins. Your cities are barely standing shells. Your people are fading into despair even as they fight on. You cannot hold . . . aaaand there goes the Foefire . . .

I wonder how Rurik’s sword returned to the Tyrian mainland.

Roven Leafsong.8917:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It possibly disappeared because it’s much easier to choose the statistics to discuss; in that case it’s math and you can’t argue with math.

I’m not sure what you mean here, but I suspect that thread disappeared because it was essentially started with the intent of trolling. It seemed to have a lot of posters (especially the OP) requesting a feature not because they actually wanted it, but because it was provocative to do so. I suspect that by exaggerating the views of people that had different motivations to their own, they were hoping to build a strawman argument that would galvanise supporters into further outrage.

Very likely, but I’d like to not talk ill of the dead (topic).

azizul.8469:

my ranger use Prec/Tou/ConDmg set of gear, with the rune of the undead for armors.

traits : 0/10/30/30/0 because i use spirit as well because i want the chance to burn enemy on hit.

weapon : shortbow with the sigil that give give 60% change of bleed on crit.

i get around 112 damage per tick…… when flanking i can get around 12 stack of bleed.. not sure if that’s low stack…

does bleeding by pet counted towards your stack ?

I – think – your pet’s stats are derived from yours. I’d need to experiment to be sure. If that’s the case then its Bleeding stacks would yield a different number since it’d be derivative rather than direct translation.

cegorach.5624:

Roven Leafsong.8917:

cegorach.5624:

In terms of the work vs equality argument, the reason I mention it is because it is common theme over and over:

- people saying the ‘manifesto’ was all about equality

vs

- people claiming ascended gear is awesome as it rewards the ‘hard work’ and ‘skill’ they have demonstrated as opposed to other players

See, I’m not sure the latter claim is made very often at all – perhaps you can correct me though. That latter claim seems to be what a lot of people against the idea of new gear project onto those who do not agree with them. (And I note that not only did you place requirements of skill and work inside inverted quotes to indicate they were debatable, but you also included a competitive comparison to other players.)

Isn’t it possible that some people support Ascended gear because it gives them something meaningful to do at end-game, it’s an extra challenge to overcome, or because the extra progression towards anything is satisfying to achieve? Isn’t it possible that your first claim about ‘equality’ is equally as debatable as ‘skill’ and ‘hard work’?

Again, I see the ideological conflict as Competition vs Advancement. I even think that explains why the negative feedback tends to outweighs the positive, because as a game with a significant PvP component, GW2 will probably tend to attract more people motivated strongly by Competition than less PvP-capable MMORPGs.

I did see that claim made repeatedly, especially in a few of the ‘gearscore’ threads/argument.

Though some of those seem to have disappeared…

It was one of the motivations for making the thread.

It possibly disappeared because it’s much easier to choose the statistics to discuss; in that case it’s math and you can’t argue with math.

RoChan.1926:

Pardon my intrusion, but I can understand Zoul’s frustration because you keep deflecting especially since he was quoting a line of thought regarding how there are so many people currently playing FotM. Granted Zoul also missed out mentioning one important thing, if people are none the wiser then they will attempt to achieve nothing.

For example, if everyone has a dollar and only a dollar most would be content while there will be those who will always be dissatisfied, however everyone would think the same ‘I am equal to my neighbor and they are equal to me. Neither of us have a greater advantage of wealth.’ If suddenly it becomes aware to the group that they can have two dollars verses one that is what begins the train of thought of ‘I am no longer equal to my neighbor and they have a greater advantage of wealth.’ This change in mentality then starts to create the ‘need’ to return to being equal or to be greater. That was what I am comprehending Zoul was try to bring up.

To answer your question regarding chasing Ascended vs Legendaries, even with a lucky break, I would go for which ever was the best investment of my time. At this point, based on my own personal future predictions, that would be Legendaries unless Anet doubles back on their word on Legendaries always being the BiS as apposed to Ascended being the BiS until the next tier.

Thank you, no pardon is necessary because you’re giving me things to read and consider. Your analogy is about greed, and the need to “keep up with the Jones’s” I think it’s called in older idiom.

My problem, if you can call it that, is that I don’t see quite yet where it’s required. Wanted? Perhaps. Required? Only in the mind, not in the game.

(Except for Agony. You, yeah, might want to think about getting some if you plan on pushing to higher difficulties. Then again, I’m equating that to “Hard Mode” content on GW1; only through time and effort learning how to deal with the changed areas could you progress. It was a “grind” of a different sort, though if the Agony is connected to attacks which can be evaded . . . then skill is still rewarded. The gear becomes a safety net. Since I have not PERSONALLY experienced this and know nobody who has? I’ll just relate this and say “and that is what I have been told”.)

That’s where this topic kind of starts . . . human nature/human behavior. There’s not an easy answer here other than for people to accept their conclusions might not be shared, and it’s okay to not like something. I don’t like chopped onion on my burgers, but I kind of have to put up with it if I hit a McDonalds and they forget to leave them off.

On your last response to my question: You mean “BiS” as “Best in Show” right? Yeah that’s why I’m pondering it . . . the one thing Exotics and Legendaries don’t have is “Infusion” . . . currently. So far that’s only a problem if I choose to do Fractals at a difficulty of 10+, so I can just steer clear of it until I get my hands on some. Until then, I’ll be doing Daily and working on that Monthly . . .

(Dungeons? Well, okay, ANet . . . I’ll give it a shot. “/guild So who wants to make a plan? We do dungeons together rather than apart, and we hit WvW as a group and go knock over supply camps?” And if I don’t make the quota, well . . . meh, it’s a shame. I could have used those Jugs of Karma. Tough break.)

It’s Thanksgiving in the US, so the population could possibly be slim pickings until later.

For instance, I’m not online all day due to being charged with the heinously grindy task of doing the turkey. And now I have the pies in.

Pray for my soul, people.

Tifa Lockheart Ex.9614:

I was referring to his example of ob armor, pvp rank and weapon, those WERE optional. sunspear and faction point was part of the storyline so yah there was a bit of grind in that.

I know you were referring to that example., still . . . there were grindy bits which had people grumbling in GW1 so the game was not perfect or devoid of the things people are experiencing now.

As for those optional grinds? I opted out of those grinds except when I got drunk and went “y’know, I can DO this!” . . .
. . . and promptly faceplanted in Random Arenas a few times in a row. Good times.

EndlessDreamer.6780:

Traps are wonderful for Rangers. The burning trap and poison trap can take down a group of trash mobs in seconds if you have high enough CD.

Even more so if you have the trait that allows you to ground target them.

Aaaaand now I might need to reset my Traits to do this. Hmmm.

Confession? Even in GW1 I was never big on traps. I preferred going for a bit more shutdown build and would focus the heck out of casters while a pet tanked.

Crossfire, Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Poison Tip Signet (would swap out “I am the Strongest” if I was up against non-fleshy targets), Broad Head Arrow, Flesh of My Flesh (the best reusable res I could use), Comfort Animal, Never Rampage Alone.

Add in Jora, Ogden, Olias as the first three Heroes constant (save for when minions weren’t useful, then it was Jurah), with Razah and Melonni taking two more slots once I could use more than 3 heroes. Tahlkora for extra monk presence, and the last slot was rotated around who I felt like seeing quotes from. Usually Pyre.

Tifa Lockheart Ex.9614:

Obsidian armor? PvP ranks? Tormented weapons? Those weren’t grinds? GW1 has as much grind at GW2.

Yes and the grind was optional because all it was is skin/appearance.

Those are, yes. The grind which was NOT optional was in Factions. “Befriending the Kurzicks/Luxon” required you to get 10,000 Faction for the one of your choice. Before you did that quest the cap you could earn was . . . 10,000. And it was a load of slogging through places with the blessings on. And for bonus points, you couldn’t proceed with Factions until you did that.

Likewise (although I didn’t have so much trouble with this) if you were not native to Elona, there was a requirement to achieve a certain rank of Sunspear title to proceed. I got it as I did cartography “first pass” through all of Istan and doing the missions, so . . . others probably had a tougher time of it.

zargnath.9524:

I’m going ranger with my condition build. currently I can keep at least 10 stacks of bleeds up as long as I’m flanking(which is quite easy thanks to the pet). I use the shortbow and have maxed precision and cond. dmg and use tratis which give chance to bleed on crit as well as superior sigil of earth. Without might each stack does a bit over 80 dmg/sec which would be 800 dmg in total. By using QZ, sharpening stone and skills granting fury I can get up to bleed cap(25) under sertain periods of time.

Don’t know if it’s the most effective but it’s at least effective.

I’m taking notes here as I’m starting to branch out into the short bow after never using it.

( I am a terrible ranger for not doing that earlier.)

I always used Longbow with the alternate set of Axe/Torch. Longbow did better spike damage on the alpha strike (read : the opening few skills) but the Axe/Torch would do better rate of damage. So, mostly I was favoring Power over Condition Damage . . . with a side focus in Precision.

Lately I’ve taken to experimenting so I’ve actually worked on getting Toughness or Vitality on some pieces of armor and using Carrion weapons for the Condition Damage And my Longbow has a Superior Sigil of Life (came with it) which immensely helps my “Heal as One” when I can feed stacks of Life.

Astralporing.1957:

Not inferior. Different. Unfortunately, that different game is aimed at different player group than the original one – and one that in its philosophy is antagonistic to the original one.

I love this argument, it’s actually true in essence. The feel of the game is slightly different after the patch and some players are very upset over it. You and I might disagree on the details but thank you.

Columba.9730:

Inferior to most of the players.

You on the other hand, I love your posts for an entirely different reason. You’re blunt, definite in your statements, making this an absolute truth. It makes it so much easier to gesture to and go “and comments like these just serve to piss people off and make communication harder”.

You serve a valuable need as an example of how not to conduct a discussion. Have a cookie.

SHM.7628:

One way or the other, The whole thing was more grind than I wated or had time for. I wanted to play the game they promised me. Remember the one where grind weasn’t present? where you could just enjoy the contenet?

That never happened! I wa always grinding karma,. Ok I didn’t craft and you did. You grinded materials or gold for them. who cares? It was grind all the same. Now there are fractals to grind.

You know when I had fun? When I wasn’t grinding but enjoying the content. There were some fun areas and DE’s but that all got lost in the shuffle.

I wasn’t really grinding materials or gold, I think? Though you can define it that way if you wish. I would think about what materials I needed and where I could find them . . . I was running short on Gold Ore? Bloodtide Coast, I liked it there. Platinum Ore? Sparkfly Fen, and hey I really enjoy the Tequatl fight . . .

The only time it felt like a grind was towards the top side of a tier of crafting. Well, let me expand on that. You know how 225 to 300 in Weaponsmithing is Darksteel? Well you need to proceed through sets of Inscriptions rather than just make them all at once. Towards the end of each “set” of Inscriptions I was sometimes low on Fine materials and didn’t want to buy it. (Again, I could afford it . . . I just didn’t want to.)

And even then, it was a case of “what spot do I feel like today . . . well I don’t like Krait so that one’s out. That spot has Flame Legion so I could do that one . . .”

Further, I’m not about spending 6 hours in a block doing it. I’d do my daily achievements and if I felt like continuing I’d go do a little more, chatter with the guild if there was anyone on . . . once I got bored or frustrated? Log out, go do something else, come back tomorrow. Or the next day. There were days when I just would look at the game and go “nah, I’m cool, let’s see if I can boot UFO Enemy Unknown and grind . . . er . . . play past the initial Ethereal period.”

(I still haven’t beat that game. That last mission is brutal, and very unbalanced in favor of the enemy.)

I get what you’re saying . . . I know the feeling, but with me not needing to be on every day to do “the grind” as you call it I feel fine if I’m not logging in one day. If I do decide to go get revenge on the Ethereals for last night’s DISMAL outing I can do that. If I want to mess around looking for Minecraft mods I can do that. If I just want to walk away from the TV and catch up on my backlog of shows I watch? I can do that. GW2 is going to be there when I get back and when I’m willing to give it my attention.

So to answer your question:

“Remember the one where grind weasn’t present? where you could just enjoy the contenet?”

Yeah, the last game I played where there wasn’t some form of busywork and grind probably was Minecraft in creative when I was looking for a way to do Gothic arches and trying out measurements and different accents. I enjoyed that content immensely because I got to show it off to an artist friend of mine who said “That looks cool!”

If you mean inside GW2? I don’t play if I don’t enjoy the content. If I feel frustrated and it’s only getting worse I’ll beg off. (“/guild Okay folks that’s enough for me tonight, catch you later!” Alt+F4) If I don’t feel like “grinding for materials” then screw it, I’ll find a jumping puzzle I want to do.

(Loreclaw Expanse. Gods I am getting to hate that one. Want to talk about feeling like a grind? Yeah, failing that one over and over in the traps comes close. I don’t walk away because I want the satisfaction of finishing it.)

Or I’ll remember some DE chain I enjoyed, like “Assault on the Ascalon Settlement” in Gendarran . . . yeah that one is a bit of nostalgia. (“I saved this place from Titans, Mantle, and gods know what else I am not going to let centaurs overrun it.”)

I dunno, maybe the grind is lost in the enjoyment I’m having or it doesn’t have the frustration effect since I just don’t do it all at once. I don’t have to, and there’s no prompt forcing me to get 100 Tiny Venom Sacs before I can get back to the stuff I like.

(No, there isn’t. Don’t point to my crafting comments and recurse this into those. I just said I leave that alone unless I actually want to do it that day. Often I make it serve double-duty by deciding to see what my charr warrior feels like today, as he’s still in Plains of Ashford. Hence, Tiny Venom Sacs.)

Also, take note. Nowhere in here did I say you were an idiot, or that you were wrong. to not like that stuff. Please don’t take it that way, it’s what you feel and it’s what you think. It’s valuable to hear this laid out in detail rather than “it’s all a grind!!!!!” with no details. Maybe it’ll help developers for other games reading these forums? I dunno.

I will tell you “you are wrong” for telling me I must hate that stuff I mentioned above.

Well, to be obvious, the players write this stuff. Not always the ones who have the greatest knack for giving detailed explanations of how they did something and why.

. . . I should get my account activated there once I scribble down notes and try to flesh it out.

SHM.7628:

When I was karma grinding I was doing events in areas that gave the most karma. It wasn’t fun. It was a chore.

You were grinding for Karma for your Exotics? I was working my crafting up and going on Black Lion for Ectoplasm (my luck is terrible) to make my own armor rather than chasing the Karma cost.

The benefit to my approach is that once I get to 400 Leatherworking, I can do the same for anyone else who wants it done and can fork over the materials.

The detriment is I was almost constantly going: “. . . okay now where the heck do I go to get Fine materials . . . they want HOW much on the trading post?”

GustavoM.7605:

Your explanation Is like… “We are animals: we don’t have opinions…. but instincts.”
Humankind Is not at risk due to volcanos, earthquakes, or wars: but Generalization.

—

All of this “drama” Is happening due to a “manifesto violation”, or a “ANet’s idealogy has been corrupted by money and capitalism”. Not the Ascended gear itself. I think one of the devs already mentioned that the Ascended gear will not be exclusive to dungeons only; but obtainable elsewhere.

They’ve said that, but it hasn’t materialized yet so people don’t know the details and thus are making assumptions on how it will work. Some of those assumptions have an incredible amount of life experiences behind them, but they remain assumptions.

And to note, the general claim is the existence of the Ascended gear is the violation, therefore that is what they are talking about.

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

ThiBash.5634:

etiolate.9185:

Beyond the angle of some idea of betrayal, the change to a gear treadmill doesn’t even make sense for their pricing model.

Two words: Transmutation Stone

Even if only 10% of the players decide they like Guild Backpack better, at $1 per stone, that’s $200,000 just for changing a few numbers in a database. Not a bad revenue for 30 seconds of work right?

As a short term cash grab it does. For the long term it doesn’t. ANET built a game where people could leave for months and return without penalty. So those people bought it. In the long term, those people will return, see that they have been penalized for their absence because of those cash grabs, then leave again.

Some will return, see they have work to catch up, become discouraged and leave. They’re the ones you’re talking about, and you’re probably very correct.

Some will sigh and get down to business. They love playing the game more than the frustration of needing to catch up.

In the end, everyone leaves a game and entropy wins.

etiolate.9185:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

etiolate.9185:

It’s not just mistrust, but confusion as well. As has been noted, they’ve come out with responses but the “we needed to bridge a gap” explanation doesn’t hold up.

It’s a lot harder to communicate and be believed when the mistrust is there. The confusion and mistrust work together to prevent any answer which doesn’t “make sense” to the listener from being accepted.

This is one of the problems with the talk going on now, and the issue with people taking a hard line with “they lied, end of story” . . . no matter what the company would try to say, there’s that nagging doubt now planted: “are they lying again?”

It’s a terrible way to box in the issue, it turns this into “you lied, yes or no?” questions not being answered, “so the assumption has to reasonably be they lied, right? Right?”

Putting the issue into closed terms, and then adding mistrust into the mix . . . no, there’s not a way out of that without leaving that doubt in there. It’s why I think the people who are being the loudest aren’t going to be satisfied with any addressing of the topic at all until they get the answer they want.

You seem to be approaching this from the angle that all doubt leads to histrionics. People are capable of hearing an explanation that makes sense and accepting it. In other words, you don’t keep silent due to a handful of fools. The silence only worsens the situation.

Well, it might seem that way, let me tone it back some.

People in the loudest groups going right now who foster doubt about ArenaNet’s word are likely to read way . . . way . . . way too much into anything they say which doesn’t conform to what they think they should say. And begin pushing this further out of control.

I don’t doubt people can be reasonable . . . but what we have here is not everyone being completely reasonable about this. We have people being reasonable about this on both sides, but the distrust and frustration at the unreasonable people on the other side harden their resolve and make it oh-so-easy to block out what doesn’t suit them.

And all you need are people so hardened in their opinion and resolute in their conclusions that you will have more of the same going on as the issue continues.

Gehenna.3625:

The article the OP quoted is not very reliable but there is truth in Nexon buying 15% of shares in NcSoft and thereby owning a majority share in comparison.

Nexon is known for their f2p games and I am pretty sure it will affect NcSoft operations. If the Consortium is a personification of Nexon in GW2 is speculation. An interesting theory but still a theory.

Well that is a possibility, but it could be the Consortium is to Black Lion what the Inquest is to the colleges in Rata Sum. Far as I can tell, the Consortium appears asura-controlled . . .

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

E) I’m not able to discuss that at this time. (Or some permutation of it.)

Follow up question: Why did you not have a preprepared answer for this question ?

Because ANET knows the question is coming and it’s an ask me anything session. They should want to get that answer out of the way quickly, even if that means answering it before it’s asked.

Follow-up answers:

- “It’s not my position to talk about that aspect of the game. Talk with someone else about it, please.”

Or the blunter version:

- “I do not have a comment on that question at this time.”

ThiBash.5634:

For all my complaining, I feel that if they do decide to come out clean, we should compliment them for it, not bash them down further. No matter how bad we feel they may have done, if they make an honest mistake, and admit/apologize for it, we should refrain from talking them down further.

etiolate.9185:

Beyond the angle of some idea of betrayal, the change to a gear treadmill doesn’t even make sense for their pricing model.

Two words: Transmutation Stone.

Even if only 10% of the players decide they like Guild Backpack better, at $1 per stone, that’s $200,000 just for changing a few numbers in a database. Not a bad revenue for 30 seconds of work right?

etiolate.9185:

Beyond the angle of some idea of betrayal, the change to a gear treadmill doesn’t even make sense for their pricing model.

Two words: Transmutation Stone.

Even if only 10% of the players decide they like Guild Backpack better, at $1 per stone, that’s $200,000 just for changing a few numbers in a database. Not a bad revenue for 30 seconds of work right?

Are we talking about the Transmutation Stones which can be received in Daily Rewards some of the time? Or from the Black Lion Chests where you can get keys through personal story missions?

Yes, you can pay for the stones, but there exist other avenues to get them. It’s just quicker to put down Gems to do it.

cegorach.5624:

I’d say that’s one extreme end of a spectrum.

So my question is about how that entire spectrum translates to and from a game world.

I’m going to reach out and say that there’s a problem with trying to model human nature like that. While you’re mostly correct, I also think “human nature” is a very slippery thing.

Humans are complicated beings who (mostly) reason. Because every individual is unique in the sum of their experiences, the full of their understanding is also unique. This leads to two people who otherwise grew up together in the same place, at the same age, with the same parenting . . . looking at a painting and disagreeing on the meaning of it. And that’s just a very simplified analogy.

There is no “singular human nature” other than to draw it back to such broad generalizations you lost track of the things that differentiate us entirely. These are important, as minute as the differences might be, to make us all individual beings.

So -

Saying that grinding out content is human nature is true. Saying that taking it at their own pace and enjoying the scenery is human nature . . . is also true.

Saying that it’s human nature to get upset that you didn’t get a Precursor from a loot drop is true. Saying that it’s human nature not to care about the loot is also true.

We are one species, but we are not of one mind. That is how we get disagreements, and that is why it’s okay to disagree. It is however . . . not okay to demonize people who don’t agree.

Unfortunately, that also is human nature. And it’s a sad thing.

Loumy.7841:

Yup they are the largest shareholder:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/08/nexon-invests-6-8m-in-ncsoft-becomes-largest-shareholder/

From the article:
“This puts Nexon’s share ownership of NCsoft at 14.7%.”

That means they have the largest amount of shares, but it doesn’t mean they get to dictate terms to the rest of the shareholders.

Well . . . “should not mean”.

Loumy.7841:

StormcrowX.9236:

This wouldn’t have gotten so bad if it weren’t for anet’s stony silence and lack of communication on the matter. unfortunately, it looks like an reccurring pattern from what i’ve been seeing eg. the “botting” debacle, when all bot-related threads were merged, dumped into one huge containment thread, ignored and subsequently locked. Now this just looks like more of the same.

Ps. I’d like to point out that the OP’s post is pretty inflammatory as well. And you know what they say about fanning flames…

Because well, if you start a post with “you people are the worst thing that happened to this game” and dont understand how that could be construed as offensive…i really don’t know what to say.

+1, and could someone LOCK this thread, it’s basically just trolling.

I don’t think it’s just trolling, but I can agree, this probably isn’t going to go anywhere good now.

Gehenna.3625:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Oh no . . . no no, if there is a monthly fee instead of cash shop I will depart with a foul taste in my mouth.

No game really thrives on just subs these days. There’s f2p and games with subs and f2p options, but pure subs are of the past.

The irony is that f2p tends to milk more cash out of players than subs ever did. You talk about a foul taste in your mouth because you fear having to pay 150 bucks a year on a game that you spend many hours in, but are not worried about f2p where people spend hundreds or even thousands in that same year.

Sure you have the choice but a game company will do all they can to get you to make that first fun purchase with real money and then it becomes easier and you end up spending more than on a sub.

It happens a lot. And yes Anet allows you to buy gems with gold but that’s why it’s good for them that things in game get more expensive as they recently did. Because that way your in game gold isn’t worth many gems and so you’d be better off buying em with real cash.

It’s not Anet, it’s f2p in general. People who think f2p is free are kidding themselves. It’s only free if they put up with certain limitations and/or have complete self control over their spending. That is not most people.

Still, I understand that games need to make money. I prefer a sub for that but there you are. So don’t get me wrong. I don’t think companies are evil for wanting to make money. I just think they figured out that they can trick people into spending much more money with f2p models.

And even that is fine with me. I really just laugh at people who think that subs are evil.

I do think there are some ethics involved here though. Anet actually set themselves up with their manifesto. They drew a line in the sand and said “this is what we stand for”. And when you buckle after that…well, it’s a sad thing indeed. If they’d never taken that stance, there wouldn’t have been such an uproar. They created expectations and created a fanbase with it. Then more people came in with different wishes and they spit out half the original fanbase that doesn’t agree with this new approach.

That to me is much more evil than cash shops, subs or people wanting to make money in general. It’s not the what but the how.

It’s not that I fear paying $150 a year for the game I enjoy. I am done with that, thank you, Everquest cured me of that ill way back before I left college.

It’s that I really, truly WOULD stop playing the game if it goes subscription. I can’t afford it.

Cyricus.2981:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Cyricus.2981:

The passionate guys and developers working/building/maintaining the game have to make a living too. They have to pay off investors, advertisment, etc. They have utility to pay for to keep things running. It takes a lot of hamster food. It is certainly not one guy getting the money.

It is also the same with any sort of hobby or entertainment you do. There is always going to be some kind of cost involved, and the cash/gem shop is entirely optional at this point in time, just as you don’t have to buy overpriced popcorn/drinks when going to see a movie.

Well, problem there, at a theatre the concessions aren’t getting profit to the writers of the movies, they’re in place to fund the theatre. Those writers don’t see any of that, and it’s . . . I know it was a big issue, recently . . . an issue what they get once that movie goes to DVD/digital release.

Which basically would equate here that the Gems probably is funding the company, not the devs directly.

Actually, they do see the profits in a way, as the theater is hosting the movie. Without the theater, the movie would not be played at all. However, I wasn’t really trying to get much into it, was just using it as an example as how it’s entirely optional.

I understand, just . . . if you can’t tell by now (looking at my post history) I hate analogies which have a blatant gap to them. The intellectual side of my brain prefers to either search out a better fit or just avoid using them.

Eh, my point still stands kind of. The Gem Store isn’t being directly beneficial to the developers, just to the company which pays the developers. The distinction is nontrivial.

etiolate.9185:

It’s not just mistrust, but confusion as well. As has been noted, they’ve come out with responses but the “we needed to bridge a gap” explanation doesn’t hold up.

It’s a lot harder to communicate and be believed when the mistrust is there. The confusion and mistrust work together to prevent any answer which doesn’t “make sense” to the listener from being accepted.

This is one of the problems with the talk going on now, and the issue with people taking a hard line with “they lied, end of story” . . . no matter what the company would try to say, there’s that nagging doubt now planted: “are they lying again?”

It’s a terrible way to box in the issue, it turns this into “you lied, yes or no?” questions not being answered, “so the assumption has to reasonably be they lied, right? Right?”

Putting the issue into closed terms, and then adding mistrust into the mix . . . no, there’s not a way out of that without leaving that doubt in there. It’s why I think the people who are being the loudest aren’t going to be satisfied with any addressing of the topic at all until they get the answer they want.

Stego.3148:

They can make a living easily without the kinds of manipulations that all MMOs today seem to have in place. They could make games with integrity that people are happy to spend money on because of the overall high quality. They don’t need to milk every penny they can out of their fans.

Honestly there is a huge difference between milking things for money and making things out of passion while still profiting. MMOs pre 2006-2007 were obviously made by people passionate about gaming who designed what they felt was interesting. This is called integrity in terms of a gaming company.

A game company that milks micro transactions and turns the genre into a system to generate cash and not a system that people enjoy and are happy to pay money for is something very different.

A good example is Diablo 2 compared to Diablo 3. Diablo 2 is possibly the most acclaimed online games of all time, it needed no cash shop, no 10% cuts off an auction house based on real money, it functioned it existed and people enjoyed it free of these things yet the 2010 era version brought these things at the customers expense for no gain. If it survived before how come that kind of integrity cannot exist anymore?

A better example is just confined to something in the same genre: EverQuest. No cash shop, but they definitely were all about keeping you playing as long as they could manage it. Which meant more subscription income . . .

. . . which would go into the expenses of running the servers, paying the paid CS reps (“GMs”), and so forth as it does towards making the guys at the top richer. Overhead is a killer when you’re an MMO.

Cyricus.2981:

The passionate guys and developers working/building/maintaining the game have to make a living too. They have to pay off investors, advertisment, etc. They have utility to pay for to keep things running. It takes a lot of hamster food. It is certainly not one guy getting the money.

It is also the same with any sort of hobby or entertainment you do. There is always going to be some kind of cost involved, and the cash/gem shop is entirely optional at this point in time, just as you don’t have to buy overpriced popcorn/drinks when going to see a movie.

Well, problem there, at a theatre the concessions aren’t getting profit to the writers of the movies, they’re in place to fund the theatre. Those writers don’t see any of that, and it’s . . . I know it was a big issue, recently . . . an issue what they get once that movie goes to DVD/digital release.

Which basically would equate here that the Gems probably is funding the company, not the devs directly.

Whoops, I’m straying off topic too much here. I have to reign in the sarcasm and levity.

In seriousness? When I open Black Lion I just kind of . . . block the purchase of Gems from my mind unless I’m there to expand my Bank Slots (for Cooking, actually . . . it’s amazing how much stuff you need). I don’t use it, except when I have need of it.

This was the same thing with GW1, I only really purchased things I felt I needed. The Vault Expansions, Bonus Mission Pack . . . I think I also purchased Game of the Year upgrade so I could have an Igneous Summoning Stone to make it easier for my perma-Pre character to get through stuff there.

As I said above . . . I’m not exactly LIKING Black Lion’s Gem Store, and if it was just a question of monetizing I’d much rather see other options. But if that’s the path that they chose to monetize then it not being there is a problem for their revenue stream and thus for us.

Ayrilana.1396:

It costs money to continually provide added content, features, support, run servers, etc. There is no monthly fee for this game compared to others so they have to make money somehow. This is nothing new to any MMO player.

I’d like to see it monetized a different way, such as shirts, mugs, plushies, framed art prints from concept art . . . but then, I’m a layperson who doesn’t understand the costs involved with those :P

EndlessDreamer.6780:

Doesn’t that seem a LOT less inflammatory, a lore more useful, and a LOT more like the developers are going to read it and take it seriously if both sides of the argument are working together to craft something that works for all parties involved?

So if you want something to improve, don’t slap someone in the face. Yes, you’re upset. But making the person on the other side of the screen upset just results in mutually negative feelings and a general bad attitude that gets people nowhere.

Unqualifed agreement here.

I also think a dialogue needs to happen between the two sides so we actually can feel out what all the points are and why there’s no agreement rather than just dismissing it as “ANet Apologist” and “Whining Kittykat-head”.

The problem is, this is the Internet. Socially, it’s built so it’s remarkably easy to push extreme opinions even more extreme than closer together.

Keiran.1896:

Digital Dragon.2697:

As elsbeth said, video games are out to make money. Everyone working for that company needs to get paid to keep a gaming running.

If they were so greedy, they would charge a monthly fee. Instead you by the game and play for FREE. The gem store is entirely up to YOU to use. If you think they’re greedy, stop buying stuff. I, personally, buy stuff because I love the game and want to support it. I want the developers to continue adding and fixing this game and I understand they can’t do that for free.

If you’re seeing all that from the gem store, all I can say is wow.

Guild Wars 1 has been alive for 7 years. How? Selling boxes, expansions, bank and characters slots, skin & name change tickets and costumes during parties. I was happy to buy something sometimes.

So how does Guild Wars 2 needs all this stuff to run? I’d prefer ONE THOUSAND TIMES a monthly fee, if this could avoid all this cash shop corruption. They are taking advantage of every event to sell 100$ of items every month, and I’m not even talking about gold.

So yea, if I could have a game without the Cash Shop, without every nerfed farm because gold = dollars, without all these players like you trying to buy my gold… I’d pay a monthly fee with so much joy. And with a monthly fee, less players, less success, less corruption. Less millions for the guys running NCsoft, Nexon, and all the rest.

Oh no . . . no no, if there is a monthly fee instead of cash shop I will depart with a foul taste in my mouth.

etiolate.9185:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

etiolate.9185:

I think that question isn’t adequate enough. It still allows wiggle room to answer it in a way that leaves all options open. I’d prefer a straight, “Yes or no. Will there be gear added with greater stats than Ascended gear from now until the next expansion?
And if Yes, do you feel you have compromised the vision of your game.
And if No, to what purpose does the increase stats on Ascended gear help the game?”

You know, two things.

There’s still wiggle room with those questions, because “until the next expansion” could mean that they just market the next content update as an expansion and now they kept their word. Or they can say “no, no we won’t do that” and then do it right after the expansion . . . and keep their word.

And secondly, if we’re going to start off assuming they’re dishonest and compromised their vision, it’s not rational to expect them not to be dishonest or compromise it again.

Like I said elsewhere, no matter what they say, no matter how they say it, it’s not going to help defuse this whole thing anymore.

I should probably change expansion to level cap increase. Basically, is Ascended the new and final plateau for 80s? If they answered that straight with a yes or no then people could at least know whats really going on. Some may be unhappy if they are adding more gear tiers, but then they could at least know to not waste their time with the game.

As a company, they’ve lost trust. They need to rebuild the trust. That’s why things are asked with a sense of doubt. That doubt was not there before this change.

Mm, yeah. Better phrase of the question. Still won’t stop them from wriggling out of it if you expect them to. That’s more what the point of my post was – once you don’t trust them and doubt their word, how can you take what they say at face value anymore?

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Narkosys.5173:

That is based on speculation.
It depends on how you see things. Did they throw out the manifesto?
Tier gear and gated content.
Yes Nexon owns 15% voting shares of NC Soft in part publishes Anet who produces GW2.
Beyond that we just dont know the influence one has over the other.
It is safe to say they are without doubt making significant altering choices in the vision and direction of the game. The rest is up to you to decide and your critical thinking.

I will say this I played the game every day for 6+hours and on the 15th I stopped.

Yes they threw out the manifesto (well a big, big part of it). Again I will point out Mike O’Brien, Ree Sosebee and (most importantly, assumed former lead game designer) Eric Flannum have all been very quite since launch. I believe Eric is gone…

All evidence to me points to an internal shake up that they tried to keep very quite. It probably came quickly. I’ve never forgotten that ArenaNet was owned by NCSoft and that they have always maintained full control. I kind of expected them to gut the company and use Korean resources to maintain the game and add new content post launch. ArenaNet’s lead by an artistic group of visionaries, the funding flows from business savy, cut-throat NCSoft. They let they artist and dreams have their way until a better way to make money off what they produce can be had. Then they step up and remind everyone of who’s little kitten they are.

If there is any of truth to this the game is doomed. I hope NCSoft is reading this.

Isn’t Ree Sosebee writer for the game lore and events, not in charge of the code?

StormGryffen.7638:

There once dawned an age of enlightenment. Gamers were free to frolick, unhindered, and rightly so through the one game to end them all, never allowed for one moment to be discontent – for their hearts were pure and their adventures were legendary.

But what comes?! Hark! Upon pressing ‘O’ one finds a shadow of doubt, of relentless evil. At its fore, bathed in the shadows of deceit and wickedness, one vile creature exists with one sole purpose – To consume your hard-earned dollars! His name.. His name will go down in infamy, but is seldom spoken aloud. Baron … Uhh… Baron Von Dark Mcbloodfist!

Think about it, my fellow adventurers! If you choose to optionally to support your game, you are supporting Baron Von Dark Mcbloodfist! No one would support him, he’s very evil! And bad. And also a huge drag at parties!

Paid for by the Tyrian Association in Support of Subscription Fees.

Hey I love that ad!

I heard the other one was fun too, about Trehearne and how he left good people to die on Claw Island so he could head the Pact.

Man I hate that guy, why haven’t they brought him up on war crimes yet?

Karizee.8076:

Map chat is as friendly and helpful as always.

Forums getting hate bombed by a couple players.

Forums getting hate bombed by a section of players. Most of whom are dissatisfied over the set of stats on Ascended and feel hurt over it being introduced.

In game? Map chat is often quiet elsewhere except to note if big event chains start or asking if anyone wants to go take a crack at something. (“Melandru is up, who wants to kick some butt?”)

Waffler.1257:

I play games because I enjoy their competitive nature. I couldn’t care less about Ascended gear in PvE, but it does bother me for WvW. I don’t want to fight somebody and get one-shotted because they simply have a lot more time to farm gear than I do, I’ve already had enough of that in MMOs. That doesn’t mean that I think everyone should be rewarded without effort though. If a game is designed properly, then it will reward skillful play and these more experienced players will win more often. This is a more dynamic form of vertical progression because while vertical gear progression is almost entirely dependent on the time you spend, vertical skill progression also takes into account your ability to learn and adapt. I think players should be rewarded for their intelligence and creativity rather than the amount of free time they have.

Yeah, if there’s a place where I have any concerns at all about the gear it’s WvWvW . . . it’s that this mentality will get so bad that you will be asked to leave so “someone more useful” can get in.

(This can happen anyway, if you’re in a very tight points race and you just aren’t any good. Speaking from experience here.)

MrDmajor.7084:

The “get a Guild” Answer is a “perfect world” one. Quite frankly it’s not a perfect world out there. I have a pretty vast friends list of nice people who are doing something else. I feel that Guilds are a more impersonal friends list. I don’t feel Guilds are the answer to the underlying point I’m making that;

-Explorable Dungeon runs were already diminishing before Lost Shores
-Fractals all but killed them.
-Fractals are self destructive because it’s splintering the player base amongst an infinite amount of “levels”.

How does ANet correct that? Does it need correcting?

Are players like myself playing less and less, and possibly no more good for the overall community?

. . . that’s possible. “Get a Guild” was kind of a flippant answer, even if it was meant well. The underlying sentiment is that if you want to do something and you aren’t getting it one way . . . try another. If you want to run a dungeon and can’t do a PUG right then, try asking your friends when they’d be able to do it with you, post on a forum or Reddit or something.

(In game message boards could help with this, by the way.)

If you don’t want to do this, which is perfectly reasonable . . . yeah, it’s very likely you would feel you’re not welcome and it’s an understandable feeling. That is, indeed, pretty bad.

Astralporing.1957:

Mr International.3715:

this would be true if we weren’t talking about a video game. in this case if you are getting negative and frustrated you are doing something wrong, not the game

On the contrary, if a game is getting a player to be negative and frustrated, then maybe, just maybe, something IS wrong with the game?

Yeah, that’s the reason I stopped playing Nethack. I actually wound up throwing my mouse against a wall and breaking it. I no longer play Nethack because next time it might be something more expensive to replace, like a monitor.

But is there something “wrong” with Nethack? Ehhh . . . no? It’s just not a game for me. I could substitute “Nethack” for “Team Fortress 2”, or “Starcraft”, or “League of Legends”, or “Farmville”.

(Or “Magic: the Gathering” where I almost flipped a table over losing a match I thought I’d won because someone pulled a Mythic Rare in a Sealed tournament and it completely screwed me. By the way, this situation? Probably the closest to the feeling of “Soandso got a Precursor and I didn’t” than anything else here . . . so yeah I do get an inkling of how you feel.)

These are all games I either tried or looked at and went “you know, I think I’ll pass”.

But other people like them, so I don’t know if anything is wrong with them. They’re not designed for me, but that’s okay.

Zoul.1087:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zoul.1087:

“Thank you, your answer therefore is . . . Legendary is better and Ascended is a waste of effort?”

No.

My answer is:

If legendary were the top tier and had better stats, people would compete for legendary. If ascended is the top tier (which it is right now) everyone has to have it. To be on an even playing field.

Your answer isn’t accurate enough, and has irrelevant information in it considering the question I asked.

If you could have the tier above Ascended without needing to do it, would you still be going for Ascended?

The question seems like a hard attempt to twist my words.

Let me say it a different way. Its simple.

Lets say there was some tier of items that had the highest stats. (lets call it nothing)

Then yes people would compete for nothing with the highest tier of stats.

I am saying people will compete for the highest stats, no matter what you call the item.

My friend, if I wanted to twist your words, I’d “frankenquote” you :P What I’m trying to do is get to the heart of your issue so I know whether or not to agree.

In this case, I’d agree with the qualifier of “some people will always compete for the highest stats”. Mostly because I wouldn’t be, and if one person isn’t then everyone isn’t.

nosleepdemon.1368:

I was almost buying into that kitten bullkitten the blog poster made until he started spouting off about Nexon trying to acquire Valve. What a moron. Let’s get one thing straight: Valve is a privately funded company, they cannot be bought out. Do your homework people.

Well, anything can be bought if you have enough money in the corporate world. There’s the adage that “everyone has their price”.

Also a rumor like that only takes one of two things to start it. Someone overhearing that an offer was made and declined, or needing to make something up to fill a blog post for a day

Blackwolfe.5649:

You mean there is actually map banter in lions arch? O.o I barely notice between all the lfg spam!

I spend next to no time in Lion’s Arch anymore due to said spam. I usually only come back to visit the Trading Post, the Guild Bank, and Crafting Stations. Or to shortcut using waypoints to go from one corner of the world to the other.

If I’m in a place where I can access one of those and don’t need to go to Lion’s Arch? I don’t go to Lion’s Arch.

Also . . . yeah, there’s map banter. Not all the time, but sometimes.

Zoul.1087:

“Thank you, your answer therefore is . . . Legendary is better and Ascended is a waste of effort?”

No.

My answer is:

If legendary were the top tier and had better stats, people would compete for legendary. If ascended is the top tier (which it is right now) everyone has to have it. To be on an even playing field.

Your answer isn’t accurate enough, and has irrelevant information in it considering the question I asked.

If you could have the tier above Ascended without needing to do it, would you still be going for Ascended?

MrDmajor.7084:

Log-In, go to Lions Arch.

“LFG FoTM [Insert Level]”

5 minutes later.

“LFG FoTM [Insert Level]”

Some map chat banter.

“LFG FoTM [Insert Level]”

Change your mind.

“LFG [Insert Another Dungeon]”

5 Minutes Later

“LFG [Insert Another Dungeon]”

Way point to Dungeon location

“LFG [Insert Another Dungeon]”

5 Minutes Later

“LFG [Insert Another Dungeon]”

Realize Non fractal dungeons are dead, and Fractal dungeons have splintered the community across an infinite amount of levels.

Log-Off.

Eh, no, I’m not around to doing Fractals yet . . . what I am experiencing is more like this:

“Hey, I need a help getting this skill point, can anyone help?”
(Whisper 1) “Dude, nobody does that one. You don’t even need it anyway. Why don’t you go do Grenth, once you ding a level you won’t need that.”
(Whisper 2) “I need it too, on my way.”

Ren.7539:

I dont think u can sell ascended gear can you ?

No, it’s account bound. If it was able to be sold, this might not be such a problem. Might. Because you’d be able to get someone to do the effort for you, and trade them something for your own Ascended gear . . . totally bypassing that grind you don’t want to do.

Edit: Actually, that’d probably be one of the safer ways to handle this if they want to keep Ascended gear in the game . . .