Guild Wars 2

Zoul.1087:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zoul.1087:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zoul.1087:

You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Its pointless and a futile attempt to derail the subject.

If legendary were the top tier and had better stats, people would compete for legendary. If ascended is the top tier (which it is right now) everyone has to have it. To be on an even playing field.

You have no point in your discussion other than to argue. So please try to stay on topic.

Of course there is a point, discussion always has a point. Communication. Also, you’re not staying on topic either, because now you’re making this about the statistics of the items than human nature.

You’re also not hearing me. If Legendary was attainable without going through Ascended, and Legendary is either equal to or better than Ascended, why would you not bypass Ascended? Why in the name of whatever you choose would you duplicate your efforts to get an Ascended and possibly later on the line duplicate that effort to get a Legendary?

No your discussion has no point if the information it provides is completely irrelevant.

Read up in the quoted text of your post. I clearly answered your question.

I read your answer, and I’m quoting the whole thing again, but you aren’t discussing, you are just saying it’s irrelevant and dismissing it.

I’ll keep the same assumptions from before. Ascended is superior to Exotic in all ways. Is it also superior to Legendary, and if not then why would I waste effort grinding for Ascended if Legendary is available and better?

copy paste

If legendary were the top tier and had better stats, people would compete for legendary. If ascended is the top tier (which it is right now) everyone has to have it. To be on an even playing field.

Thank you, your answer therefore is . . . Legendary is better and Ascended is a waste of effort?

etiolate.9185:

I think that question isn’t adequate enough. It still allows wiggle room to answer it in a way that leaves all options open. I’d prefer a straight, “Yes or no. Will there be gear added with greater stats than Ascended gear from now until the next expansion?
And if Yes, do you feel you have compromised the vision of your game.
And if No, to what purpose does the increase stats on Ascended gear help the game?”

You know, two things.

There’s still wiggle room with those questions, because “until the next expansion” could mean that they just market the next content update as an expansion and now they kept their word. Or they can say “no, no we won’t do that” and then do it right after the expansion . . . and keep their word.

And secondly, if we’re going to start off assuming they’re dishonest and compromised their vision, it’s not rational to expect them not to be dishonest or compromise it again.

Like I said elsewhere, no matter what they say, no matter how they say it, it’s not going to help defuse this whole thing anymore.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

nehezbegar.1065:

“If You have not ascended, You can’t go with us”.

People keep saying this, and I just can’t see it ever happening. Ever. Perhaps a tiny minority of groups will act like this, but it will never be a common thing, I’ll bet you anything.

People are far too willing to assume the worst.

Hi, welcome to the Internet!

Zoul.1087:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Zoul.1087:

You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Its pointless and a futile attempt to derail the subject.

If legendary were the top tier and had better stats, people would compete for legendary. If ascended is the top tier (which it is right now) everyone has to have it. To be on an even playing field.

You have no point in your discussion other than to argue. So please try to stay on topic.

Of course there is a point, discussion always has a point. Communication. Also, you’re not staying on topic either, because now you’re making this about the statistics of the items than human nature.

You’re also not hearing me. If Legendary was attainable without going through Ascended, and Legendary is either equal to or better than Ascended, why would you not bypass Ascended? Why in the name of whatever you choose would you duplicate your efforts to get an Ascended and possibly later on the line duplicate that effort to get a Legendary?

No your discussion has no point if the information it provides is completely irrelevant.

Read up in the quoted text of your post. I clearly answered your question.

I read your answer, and I’m quoting the whole thing again, but you aren’t discussing, you are just saying it’s irrelevant and dismissing it.

I’ll keep the same assumptions from before. Ascended is superior to Exotic in all ways. Is it also superior to Legendary, and if not then why would I waste effort grinding for Ascended if Legendary is available and better?

MithranArkanere.8957:

It’s impossible to make two sides happy when one side won’t feel like they have something unless others can’t have it.

You always have to take a side.

With one side, you can still have prestige and merit while giving everyone a chance at something. The merit and prestige are in getting the things first. Like when achievements have timestamps. No matter how many people do something after you, nobody can take from you that you were the first one.

With the other side, you’ll have only a small group of players hijacking the game and keeping it from the rest. You can identify these because they tend to use the word ‘carebear’ quite often.

When something in the game lacks alternate ways of acquisition, those who do not have the luck, or the time to grind, or the mad skillz needed to get it.
You fix that with levels of difficulty, alternate ways of acquisition, trading and things like those, to allow everyone to be able to get things.
But if the alternate ways are disproportionately more time consuming than the main one, it’ll be as if they didn’t exist in the first place.

Eh, people keep telling me I need to pick a side but I don’t. This “you’re with us or against us” mentality getting fostered is much more damaging than the point of contention in the first place, because it totally shuts down any kind of discussion on the matter. If you are obviously right, and the other person is monstrously wrong, then you’re not going to try to convince them, you’ll just say they’re the enemy and anything they say is worthless.

That said…

“With one side, you can still have prestige and merit while giving everyone a chance at something. The merit and prestige are in getting the things first. Like when achievements have timestamps. No matter how many people do something after you, nobody can take from you that you were the first one.”

I’d rather “when” wasn’t a factor so much as “if”, in this case.

“With the other side, you’ll have only a small group of players hijacking the game and keeping it from the rest. You can identify these because they tend to use the word ‘carebear’ quite often.”

In the games where that was even a question, the people who still wanted to play the game found ways around that . . . if player-killing was possible, and a bunch of players were actively doing that? There’s a posse of pissed off players just waiting to catch them somewhere unawares until they (the superiority-spouting player) relented. If they didn’t relent? “Well we’re hunting you til you reroll or quit. And if you reroll and start this again, we’ll be right back here again in a month.”

If you don’t have player-killing, or if it’s structured in such a way that the above can’t happen? Then you get the “underground resistance” where groups form specifically to get around the restrictions. Someone saying they perma-camped that spawn and you can’t have it because you’re not worthy, and you can’t put a shot through their face? Your buddies and you get together, sit right down on the same spawn point and go “we can play that game”.

All of this assumes it’s the playerbase being a problem and the GMs / Devs aren’t getting in the way. If they are, then that’s a whole different can of worms.

Zoul.1087:

You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Its pointless and a futile attempt to derail the subject.

If legendary were the top tier and had better stats, people would compete for legendary. If ascended is the top tier (which it is right now) everyone has to have it. To be on an even playing field.

You have no point in your discussion other than to argue. So please try to stay on topic.

Of course there is a point, discussion always has a point. Communication. Also, you’re not staying on topic either, because now you’re making this about the statistics of the items than human nature.

You’re also not hearing me. If Legendary was attainable without going through Ascended, and Legendary is either equal to or better than Ascended, why would you not bypass Ascended? Why in the name of whatever you choose would you duplicate your efforts to get an Ascended and possibly later on the line duplicate that effort to get a Legendary?

nehezbegar.1065:

Tobias, it’s true what You say, but i just wanted to pin out, that they can test those ideas on players before they put them on the live servers

And on the other hand, please don’t hate me for saying this . . .

Even if the test server players thought the change was absolutely fricking awesome, it could be a bad idea for the main servers. Ultima Online again, Test had a faction war going on but it was really something Live didn’t have. Which is why it developed its own community, come to think of it . . . my brother was very heavy into playing on it but couldn’t stand fifteen minutes of the actual game.

Mr Crazy Moose.5760:

I doubt they’ll even acknowledge there might be something to address.

Back when they used Gaile Gray to distribute information in GW1, she had an amazing blind spot for that kind of stuff. Even when the district was 95% full of people afking rings.

. . . I’m going to put down another answer:

E) I’m not able to discuss that at this time. (Or some permutation of it.)

Because that’s what I would expect him to say if someone asks this of him. Reasonably, if this was a corporate-mandated change, he can’t say anything or it’s his job. And if he does say something and loses his job, the next person is going to come in and say: “What he said isn’t true” and begin the spin now to make it look like he didn’t know what he was talking about.

If this is a change they honestly wanted to make (for whatever reason), he’s probably going to be coached not to talk about it without PR consulting on the matter.

And if he does say something, I would strongly believe there was at least some consultation with a PR representative to at best polish what he has to say so he doesn’t wind up leaving threads for people to pull, or at worst . . . well, bend things in such a way that it sounds reasonable and nice while not meaning what you are led to think it means.

I don’t think there’s any way an ANet rep could answer the question without someone running with the answer and fanning this thing to keep going.

nehezbegar.1065:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

“Which will be “If You have not ascended, You can’t go with us”. "

You know, there was a time that was a statement of fact in GW1 and no amount of wringing your hands would change the fact you literally could not go with them.

As for the rest of this, well, there’s another issue. ArenaNet isn’t a person, it is made up of people. People make mistakes, they have ideas they think might be awesome but turn out to be only a subjective taste. (Vanilla vs chocolate vs strawberry icing, mustard vs ketchup as a condiment . . .) People sometimes compromise between choices of what they want to do, sometimes without adequately understanding what the results of that choice are going to be. People are invariably . . . flawed.

I’ll leave a quote here for you fine ladies and gentlemen.

“The problem with oaths saying “death before dishonor”, is that it divides the world into two groups. The dead and the forsworn."

This is why i hate that ArenaNet has no Public Test Realms, to check those ideas on the community. They just threw what they had in their mind and put it on live servers. Also i believed that players wouldn’t be divided by gear as it appears to be now.

You can say “obtain ascended and you are ok”. Yes, but if they was able to introduce another tier of gear, there is nothing that can stop them from introducing “super extra legendary ascended gear” with greater stats and bonuses, which makes GW2 not different than other games on the market, and ArenaNet claimed that they are different. Maybe im stupid and i don’t understand sth, i don’t know. This is how i feel.

Public test servers are probably a good idea for a BUNCH of other reasons than this. Ultima Online did a lot of . . . interesting . . . things on their test servers, and despite for a while having a constant data wipe going on people still would flock there and play on it as opposed to regular servers.

A public test server would allow ANet to test fixes on bugs to see if they work before they apply it. And presumably catch a “fix” which winds up not being a total solution.

A public test server would allow them to watch how a small group of players act and use what they drop in with a note going: “Hey folks, why don’t you take this and go use it, let us know what you think?” (Note, it has to be that way, it’s SERIOUSLY impractical for a public test server to have everyone on it all the time . . . or it’s not the test server it’s the main one.)

Zoul.1087:

I like how you side stepped the point completely and went off on some wild tangent in order to be right. Way to ignore the actual subject.

If someone has superior arms to stay competitive or useful you have to have the same equipment. This was my point. If you are going to go into how knives and guns are different you are just throwing out strawmen.

I as going to use another analogy but I think you would just over analyze the difference between different things. A gun is not always superior is not a valid argument. My point is ASCENDED IS ALWAYS SUPERIOR.

. . . no, a knife and a gun are fundamentally different objects any more than an assault rifle is not a shotgun or a stick of dynamite is not a nuclear fission device. If you think that’s a strawman argument then you’re not understanding me.

And if we’re going to go back to “Ascended is always superior”, fine. I’ll bite, and we can even throw out assumptions and extrapolations of the future. Assume for a minute I agree that Ascended is always superior using the current situation. What if I get a Precursor and then start getting lucky and in a week I am sitting within spitting distance of a Legendary weapon. Is the Ascended armor still superior?

Ruien.9506:

Nope I said exactly what I ment. Working hard has very little to do with it. How you work to succeed is what matters. But this is wisdom that todays generation cant comprehend because everyone thinks they are the best thing since sliced bread. Guess what? You arent.

Apologies, I was not attempting to put words in your mouth or twist what you were saying, just wasn’t sure I was reading it right. I agree that “how I work” is important. work doesn’t have to be hard, or soul-crushing, or on the flipside . . . easy, entertaining, and fun. Work is a complex word, and lots of people define it to have so many different connotations while expecting their definition to be the true one. This is how we wind up with qualifiers before “work” to try to explain exactly what we mean.

Your words as stated are something I can agree with. You don’t get anything you want simply by wanting it. You must do something for it. And in a world where you barter for what you want (at least in a majority of the world), you must offer something of equal agreed-upon value before you get what you want. It could be currency, it could be tasks, it could be something the other person wants that you have.

I hold this as a truth, in the sense that this is how the world by and large functions. That’s not the case for everything, but it’s close enough.

By the way, no I am not the best thing since sliced bread. I’m merely the best “myself” I can be. I am unique, I am special, but that does not mean I am better. It means “I am me, and there are no others who are me.”

Tolmos.8395:

Sef.6918:

once you have ascended gear theres nothing to worry about, its not as if they adding new gear after that, whats the big bother?

This is the problem with sarcasm on the internet… it’s so hard to detect =D

It’s not just sarcasm which is hard to detect, my friend, it’s sincerity which is hard to detect.

nehezbegar.1065:

For me everything collapsed like a house of cards.

While i enjoyed the Karaka one time event, the “You know what addition” turned me off. I am the person that doesn’t have much time to play games, so i’ve fallen into ArenaNet philosophy of not having gear trademil. Now, after some time ,when i’m going to look for group i will definetly meet the wall, which will be “If You have not ascended, You can’t go with us”. I thought there will not be discrimination based on gear, cuz i believed there will be no gear trademil. With this update everything has changed.

I want to say sth to ArenaNet. Do not forsaken Your philosophy, do not fall under the whiners pressure. Whiners are minority, majority enjoyed the game as it was, without all this ascended crap.

I believe Your designers can make harder dungeon mechanics so players will feel their progress by making harder and harder content, but not determined by gear, but by their brain, skill and coordination. I feel You dont fully use the non-trinity potential, so i hope You will find the golden solution for it too.

Man, this is like a slap in the face.

“Which will be “If You have not ascended, You can’t go with us”. "

You know, there was a time that was a statement of fact in GW1 and no amount of wringing your hands would change the fact you literally could not go with them.

As for the rest of this, well, there’s another issue. ArenaNet isn’t a person, it is made up of people. People make mistakes, they have ideas they think might be awesome but turn out to be only a subjective taste. (Vanilla vs chocolate vs strawberry icing, mustard vs ketchup as a condiment . . .) People sometimes compromise between choices of what they want to do, sometimes without adequately understanding what the results of that choice are going to be. People are invariably . . . flawed.

I’ll leave a quote here for you fine ladies and gentlemen.

“The problem with oaths saying “death before dishonor”, is that it divides the world into two groups. The dead and the forsworn."

Zoul.1087:

Naoko.7096:

Zoul.1087:

They are spending time in the fractals a lot, because they can’t spend it anywhere else since nothing else will improve their character.

Yes. It’s because it’s human nature to constantly keep ourselves improve all the time. If it isn’t human nature to not improve themselves, they wouldn’t naturally chose to do fractals. In reality, people sub-consciously wants to keep improving and progress too.

No people HAVE to progress.

Why do countries other than the U.S. feel the need to improve their weaponry?

Its about advantage. This stat buff forces you to go up to stay competitive. If everyone else has a gun and you have a knife then why would you want a gun?

Also these dungeons have already proven the dark side of this. “You don’t have full exotics, we are not going to dungeon with you.”

Its turning people into elitists.

You . . . you didn’t just compare this to the nuclear arms race, please tell me that’s not your intent.

“If everyone else has a knife, why would you want a gun?”

Flawed analogy. A knife is more than a weapon, it is a tool to cut and shape things. Someone with a knife is dangerous because that tool can be used as a weapon. A gun is a weapon, which is used to kill people at a distance far more effectively than a knife, but a gun isn’t going to allow me to whittle a piece of wood down, or cut my steak.

If we talk about combat situations, there are plenty of reasons you don’t want a gun instead of a knife. There are reasons you wouldn’t bring out a knife at all., and it is proven you could be bare handed and still be lethal enough in certain combat situations. Even up against someone with a gun.

Favorite NPC in this game? Logan Thackeray, but not because I really love his character or his model, or things like that. I like the ideas which went into the background, and the concept.

Here is a guy who wants to do the right thing, and has the will to do what it takes, but his current life is defined by the one time honor and duty conflicted and he chose duty. Either way he chose, it would have broken him, so it doesn’t matter which way he chose. If he had chosen to stay it’d gnaw at him just as much. The fact one of his closest friends (Rytlock) isn’t able to grasp the reasoning has soured him considerably.

And deep down, he is utterly in love with his queen but knows that relationship is both inappropriate and never going to work. So he sees himself as her bodyguard and champion.

. . . none of this means I don’t want to grab him by that “pretty hair” and slam him face-first into a table over the crap he does sometimes.

Mr International.3715:

Hey..uh..does anybody every consider that the world is huge and full of stuff to do in your free time and that lingering on but one of those things screaming about how it should be changed to your liking is kind of insane? Realistically, if this game changed direction or you don’t like it anymore why not just go play a different game, or do something else entirely?

The day I stop being entertained from this game, I’ll be doing just that. No shouting from the rooftops, no big bold posts about how the game sucks and the people still playing are sheep, no raging against what I see as unfun.

I’ll just put it down and walk away. I’ve done it before (EverQuest: Planes of Power, Ultima Online, The Realm, Meridian 59, Legend of the Green Dragon, Diablo 2, Diablo 3, Monster Hunter Tri, and these are just games which had an online community.)

Astralporing.1957:

Ruien.9506:

Columba.9730:

I suppose people who like grinds don’t accomplish much in real life, so they need a grind to feel like they’ve done something. The rest of us can point to real life accomplishments and don’t need to toil through grinds.

Such a silly suggestion. I like to work for things in Rl as well as in my leisure and play times. In Rl, I am a 22 year Naval vet. I was a Masterchief and veteran of 3 wars. I worked so myself, my family and millions of other people have the freedoms they enjoy today. Lord knows I didn’t do it for the pay. During that time, I saved and invested responsibly while other people wasted their income and now am retired at the ripe old age of 40 very well off financially.

As a masterchief and COB of a US submarine, I have seen hundreds of young men come into the service with the attitudes expressed here in this thread. Boy were they mistaken. As in my above post, no one is equal. How you work to achieve a goal in this life is the only thing that matters. That boys and girls is the truth in its most basic form.

You are confusing life and computer game. One of the pros of virtual world is that it doesn’t have to run on the same rules – it offers something different. For normal life, we don’t need games.

Well, I think it’s proven and generally accepted that while games/entertainment is not physically vital it is mentally and emotionally useful to have some outlet to pour your time into. It is similar to pets – while they are not vital to living, they do enrich your life and people who have pets live longer.

It’s not entirely about “I just need to have fun”, it’s more that “I need some time where my brain has a chance to stop dwelling on the rest of my life”. Other than sleeping, naturally.

And:

“How you work to achieve a goal in this life is the only thing that matters. "

I’m not sure if you dropped a word and meant “how hard you work” instead of “how you work” but both are equally important to consider.

Nabbis.5784:

Those who work hard in life cannot be succesfull in a game that requires grind in order to progress(This is a simple fact), regardless of what philosophy they cater to. Just a simple statement for some people here.

The real issue here is that we need to “grind” and lots of time to get the gear as opposed to say, hard jumping puzzles and a scavenger hunt. Grinding is not hard, its time consuming.

That is not a simple fact, that is a simple opinion. Fact requires it to be demonstrably so, while I know people successful in life who are successful in grindy games. A guy I know is married, has two kids, a decent enough job to pay for his life . . . he, my brother, and I have thoroughly played a grindy game together until we kicked it in its teeth and took its lunch money.

(That game was not Guild Wars 2 or World of Warcraft, for the record; it was an entry in the Monster Hunter series.)

Another person I know of (but do not personally know) was exceedingly successful taking another RPG in his spare time and deconstructing it down to algorithms of how things actually work. Don’t believe me? Go to GameFAQs and look at the FAQs for “Disgaea: Hour of Darkness” . . . a grindy game, where someone wrote a stellar FAQ and had time for a life as well as to play the game and then write the FAQ up.

I’m still waiting on getting a (one) Passion Flower from harvesting. Presumably according to an edit on the wiki, the Reef Drakes should drop one of the shoulder skins. Try starting there?

. . . that will be a fun task when I go back for it. Huh.

Conner.4702:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Conner.4702:

My thoughts exactly. I’m not going to wait for it to go wrong if I can do something to prevent it. As I see it you lose your right to speak about an issue if you remain on the sidelines.

Um, no, there are more than two sides to this. Besides, I could jump onto either side or switch sides rapidly depending on what new piece of information or quote comes up. I’d much rather offer my perspective here, rather than grab pitchforks and join the mob, or willingly stand against the wall to be executed as a “conspirator”.

Just because I’m not working myself into a frothing, foaming fit over this doesn’t mean I have no right to speak up.

How about you first stop talking negatively over those opposed to it by saying they are frothing and foaming and having a fit. To me you do lose your voice because by the time you finally made a decision it will be to late. Your own inaction is making you lose your voice.

Excuse the hyperbole, I’m not meaning to denigrate your position. I do beg forgiveness on that.

As for the rest? I will never lose my voice, nor my ability to just pick up and leave if I decide to. I asked for forgiveness for my tone, but now I ask you to understand something.

Do not make another attempt to push me to one side of the line drawn in the dust. I make that choice, not you.

Are we clear, sir/madam?

Mr Crazy Moose.5760:

Chyanne Waters.8719:

Guildwars had the Mursat that if they used Spectral Agony and you were not infused you lost 100 health a second. Now the Karka are replacing the Mursat in that department. But instead of fighting an Eleodon to infuse your armor its a two step process. Do fractal dungeon and use the mystic forge to add the infusion. Seems like a low amount but in Guildwars there were only 20 levels and that was maximum. Arenanet believed and still believes in balance in their games so in guildwars a level 20’s highest foe was 32 no 5k damage to or from foes.

The difference being that infusion against Spectral Agony was part of the story and attainable in three missions with a fourth way to get it in an explorable zone.

It also applied to whatever armor you had on at the time you got it, you didn’t need to go and get 15k armor to be able to get infusion.

The end result are similar but getting there in GW2 is much, much longer and are being dragged out by the “over time” nonsense being used to excuse them rushing this stuff out.

It applied to whatever armor you had on you . . . after a patch. Originally, it only worked on one piece at a time.

Belteshazzar.6307:

If I work my butt off for something it better be something that’s better than something I could have gotten in 5 minutes!!!

Don’t hate me. <3

I don’t hate you. I can agree with the sentiment, as I could be very annoyed if I was put through . . . say, one of those game shows where you are put through “hilarious” challenges so the audience can laugh at you, and all you get is a T-shirt from CafePress or a chrome-plated medal.

Though one of the things we did seem to be discussing is “how can you measure better value when we talk about intangibles?” Not simply “this is better than that because it’s more valuable” or “because this one has more to it”.

(That definition of “better because it’s more” is something I don’t want to get into here, because it’s at the OP’s leisure to decide if that’s on topic or not. He was starting talking about “hard work and rewards” and how they relate.)

Azure Prower.8701:

Kain Francois.4328:

I would really love if they brought back Zaishen Dailies from GW1.

I would really love it if they didn’t. Not every thing from GW1 was good.

I think the Zaishen Dailies are represented better in the Daily Achievements. 5 silver, some experience, a Mystic Coin and now 4500 Karma for roughly 30min to an hour of meandering through a zone you like. There’s no “ohgoditsRotwingagain” ZBounty, there’s no “LFG ZBounty” when it’s a Fissure or UW mob . . .

There’s no stacking Urgoz in there for when you can get enough people having it at once to do a run at the dungeon.

There’s no “screw that I never want to ever go back to Vehjin Mines for that quest” vs “Tihark Orchard? Meh, okay, free coins time”.

I don’t think it was a bad idea in and of itself but the implementation was a bit clunky and uneven. Early Ascalon missions in HM were a bear sometimes (especially that one, and you all know which one I mean) but you weren’t given as many coins as the aforementioned Tihark Orchard (where you attend a party as a solo character and have a fight at the end).

And the rewards were of dubious value except once I needed ZKeys.

papryk.6273:

they should make the rings tradeable…no idea why they are account bound

Most of the loot in Fractals is account bound. I noticed that while sorting through it later. So it’s not just the rings, it’s the two exotic “Focus” and “Trident” I got from the chests.

Conner.4702:

My thoughts exactly. I’m not going to wait for it to go wrong if I can do something to prevent it. As I see it you lose your right to speak about an issue if you remain on the sidelines.

Um, no, there are more than two sides to this. Besides, I could jump onto either side or switch sides rapidly depending on what new piece of information or quote comes up. I’d much rather offer my perspective here, rather than grab pitchforks and join the mob, or willingly stand against the wall to be executed as a “conspirator”.

Just because I’m not working myself into a frothing, foaming fit over this doesn’t mean I have no right to speak up.

Strang.8170:

Also at the end of the day if kitten hits the fan, we can say: “Hey, atleast we tried.”

At the end of the day if the kitten hits the fan I am probably going to have stern words with the kitten.

Yes I know what you meant, but I meant what I said. I’m not panicking until I need to, and since there’s no personal danger to me in this there’s less “running away top speed” and more “meh, well I had fun while it lasted, let’s see if I can beat my record on how quickly I got diamonds on Minecraft.”

IndigoSundown.5419:

In both game and real life, I am an egalitarian.

In game, egalitarian means all players should have a chance to get the best stuff regardless of what aspects of the game they play, since the only entitlement worth kitten is that gained by paying for the game. I don’t buy the line that, “playing harder content entitles you to better stuff.” I don’t care if the best stuff is hard to get in terms of resources gained, effort and time, but it should not be gated into one form of content.

In real life, egalitarian for me does not mean entitled, it means that I should have the same opportunity to work my kitten off as anyone else regardless of race, etc. RL and game are different in that regard, since if doing what I like is not worth as much as doing what I hate, then I will make less money. In game, the only “others” who can determine the worth of what I choose to do are the developers, certainly not other players. The money I paid for the game is worth no more, but certainly no less, than anyone else’s.

A minor distinction. Having an opportunity does not necessarily equate to “I will have it”. I may have the chance to get a bestseller published to make J.K. Rowling’s sales figures look puny. Is it going to happen? (laugh) Heck no, not without me meeting them halfway by actually having something of that quality.

I would also say I will always say “the value of what I do in the game is determined by me, none other”. Nobody can take a personal achievement (“I actually managed to walk from Rata Sum to Hoelbrak without gates or waypoints”) and tell me that it’s worthless . . . it’s worth something to me.

Astralporing.1957:

Now, if a vendor appeared that offered all casuals ascended eq for cheap, wouldn’t an argument “just ignore the vendor, if you think you should work hard for your gear” be equally valid?

Yes. Yes it is valid, because it’s a self-imposed challenge.

Morrigan.2809:

How all this may correlate to players real world views, I have no idea. It is an interesting subject.
I just realized I contributed nothing to it

It’s okay, this subject is less an argument over who’s right and just talking it out. Over a beverage of your choice in the corner of a college campus.

Astralporing.1957:

lunabaguna.8293:

Zoul there is a marked difference, Diablo 3 was a single player game that was a sequel to Diablo 1 and 2. GW2 is an MMO, it is not a sequel to GW1. GW1 is a sequel to GW1 because it is constantly being updated with new content.

It is not. In fact, the updates stopped when it was announced that GW2 is in the works. GW2 was specifically meant to be a “sequel” to GW1, with the intention of replacing it completely.

Well the last content of GW1 released was Winds of Change. someone can correct me if I’m wrong.

However, from how I understand it, the last two content updates “Hearts of the North” and “Winds of Change” both were released after it was said GW2 was going to be in development. The point of these was to sort of “bridge” events so that there was some lead-up in GW1 to the state of the world in GW2

Strang.8170:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

This is why I dislike pulling out simple analogies, everyone always wants to spread them like a pat of butter. Sometimes it’s just a slice of your average sandwich loaf toasted. Spreads easily, covers about the right amount.

Then there are some people needing it to cover a baguette. The butter just wears thin, you barely have it in some places and not at all in others, and yet you insisted it was enough for one piece of bread, this one shouldn’t be any different.

(Translation: This is a big matter, not a small one, and analogies / similes are a good start but they really don’t work for more complex matters.)

Ok, without analogy.

We´ve seen a start in a direction that we´ve been in before, we know where it leads. We have no reason to believe that they stop now that they´ve started going in that direction.
It may not be a inherently bad direction, but it just isn´t what this was all supposed to be about. We wanted something else and we were said the was going to be something else.

….frowning upon analogies with analogies…i´d make inception joke but it might lead to some very inappropriate sounding words…

I’ll make one for you.
If you disagree about using an inception joke, within an inception joke is that contraception?

. . . honestly I do grasp your point, but as I was trying to get across with my analogy; it’s not that I’m blind to the warning signs. It’s that I refuse to enter a panic over it, and I’d rather know for certain before . . . well, running full speed in the other direction.

Saidor.7028:

Strang.8170:

cegorach.5624:

I am curious why you think an online game should have easy access to fun while real life shouldn’t.

Because that´s what they are for, fun.

Games are entertainment, they´re made to give us enjoyment….if they turn fun in to cheap skinners box, they´ve failed.

I think you missed the point. He’s not saying why should games be fun, hes saying why should life not be fun.

The majority of people dont believe in hard work for reward, they are just forced in to that situation and social programmed to spout out the party line, and because if they have to suffer working hard so should everyone else.

How many of those same people would continue to work 48 hours a week in a minimum wage job if they won the lottery? All of a sudden, now they dont need to , the philosophy of working hard goes out the window.

Americans have it pretty bad with this stupid ‘hard work’ philosphy and work the longest hours of any country in the world. Yet their productivity is decreasing. Countries in Europe having been limiting working hours (france is down to 35 a week) and have seen productivity increasing. – not to mention minimum standards of paid time off. Equaly, quality of life is seen as much higher in Europe than in the US.

I . . . probably would still find something to do if I won the lottery. More than likely I would not be at a minimum wage job I would detest, but I would try for something to keep be busy. Something like working usher duty for an opera house or theatre. Or perhaps invest some money and start a small business cooking for individual orders. Or maybe I’d work on a camera persona and do Let’s Plays for the entertainment.

It might be cultural programming, or it could be a personal issue. I’m not completely sure.

. . . I can’t debate on that level, I can only cite what I learned in my college courses and what is generally accepted by the scientific community. “Energy cannot be gained without some Work applied.” If I could remember the equations, I’d cite them, but I don’t so I shan’t.

I think your definition of “work” and mine don’t entirely mesh. That is troublesome.

On a topic tangential but not exactly related . . . have you heard of dorodango? Fascinating art style, taking nothing but dirt, water, and effort and turning it into something rather strikingly beautiful.

Edit: why didn’t this quote . . . this was to cegorach.

Strang.8170:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Xandax.1753:

Crater.1625:

People oppose the changes being made to Guild Wars 2 not because they are in love with Guild Wars 1 and want Guild Wars 2 to be the same as Guild Wars 1, but because the changes are bad changes, taken on their own merits.
<snip>

Ding ding ding- we have a winner.

Although I’m sure the OP and the likes knows that, but it wouldn’t make a good foundation for a complain post.

I’m unconvinced they are bad changes, though I remain open to the interpretation this could be the start of something going very wrong. I smell smoke, but I’m not entirely sure if it’s a bonfire or someone just having struck a match.

Bonfire is built and match is struck. It seems obvious it´s going to be lit.
And yet it was mentioned that there would be no bonfires, also we really really wanted to build a house out of the wood used in the bonfire

This is why I dislike pulling out simple analogies, everyone always wants to spread them like a pat of butter. Sometimes it’s just a slice of your average sandwich loaf toasted. Spreads easily, covers about the right amount.

Then there are some people needing it to cover a baguette. The butter just wears thin, you barely have it in some places and not at all in others, and yet you insisted it was enough for one piece of bread, this one shouldn’t be any different.

(Translation: This is a big matter, not a small one, and analogies / similes are a good start but they really don’t work for more complex matters.)

cegorach.5624:

Nice ants comment

You’ve named a handful of things that you enjoy. But there are probably millions of moments in your life just as enjoyable that bring pleasure without requiring ‘work’ (note that it’s not ‘work’ if you enjoy it).

My point is that from quite a few philosophical standpoints, the ‘all rewards must come from hard work’ is a pretty dubious notion. It’s part of the Protestant work ethic mythology that has been heavily propagandised into American ideology, as well as a few other nations.

I fully accept that many people believe it to be a fundamental aspect of reality, in the same way I fully accept many people believe a deity of their choice is a fundamental aspect of reality.

I don’t accept that people believing it makes it a fact, far from it.

So what I am getting at with this thread is whether people who have that rather extreme ideological view – ‘all rewards must come from hard work’ – apply it equally to virtual environments or not and if not, why?

I can concede that my being raised in America probably contributed a lot to my work ethic and my world view. I also agree my belief does not make it a fact. However, the laws of science do disagree – everything must be created out of something. Laws of conservation of mass and energy. I’m not a physicist, and I only did 4 years of college but I at least remember that.

I also believe you can love your work. Just because it pays the bills doesn’t mean you have to despise it, or at best tolerate it.

I had a blast rounding up four of my guildmates today and doing Ascalon Catacombs, Story Mode. I got almost absolutely no loot worth mentioning, but I got to put boulders through King Adelbern’s face so that’s a plus in my book.

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

cegorach.5624:

Now I am a foreigner, so be aware that most of my posts use sardonic humour that is nigh undetectable by many populations.

Foreign to what?

We’re all foreigners.

He probably means “not a native speaker of English”?

Well, there’s the thing . . . I don’t just receive pleasure from those things consumerism can get me. I won’t deny they’re pretty fun and I definitely enjoy having spent money on games. (Not just this one.)

On the other hand, I enjoyed learning how to cook a risotto. I enjoyed checking out a renaissance faire. I enjoyed going to visit friends one year for Thanksgiving and basking in their camaraderie. I enjoy my work. I enjoy the appearance of a cleaned and straightened house, along with the smell of fresh laundry. I enjoyed going camping growing up, and earning the right to do so without my parents supervising me.

All of these things require effort, even if it’s not on my part. None of it is “free”.

Edit: Actually, to explain why I say that, the thing about sitting under the tree? I have a tree in my backyard, but I also live in a part of the US where there exist an abomination known as “fire ants”. I could go out there at random and sit under the tree and look at the sky . . . but I would rather go out there after I spread ant killer pellets so I don’t come in with bite sores on my back and legs.

Xandax.1753:

Crater.1625:

People oppose the changes being made to Guild Wars 2 not because they are in love with Guild Wars 1 and want Guild Wars 2 to be the same as Guild Wars 1, but because the changes are bad changes, taken on their own merits.
<snip>

Ding ding ding- we have a winner.

Although I’m sure the OP and the likes knows that, but it wouldn’t make a good foundation for a complain post.

I’m unconvinced they are bad changes, though I remain open to the interpretation this could be the start of something going very wrong. I smell smoke, but I’m not entirely sure if it’s a bonfire or someone just having struck a match.

It is about human nature and social behaviors . . . what this has turned into is another excuse to employ being selective and trying to say it’s necessary. This isn’t the only instance of it, this didn’t just pop up overnight, we just got a new reason to point to and go “because of this”.

This happened in the previous Guild Wars game, as much as people want to shout that it’s different now. It happened in this game before Ascended ever was an inkling in the players’ eyes.

I don’t know how to describe myself politically, but here’s the thing. I think if you want something nice, it takes effort proportional to the object you want. This isn’t about making money to afford it (it could be, but could not). If you want to have a great little garden to sit in then you have to put the effort in (OR barter with someone to put the effort in) . . . it just doesn’t happen. If you want to read a book, you have to read the book (in the case of some, you probably will need to go back and read it again). If you want a piece of artwork to admire, then it requires someone to make it. If you want to own a car that gets 50 mpg (miles per gallon) then you need to put the work in to find it. (Note: I am not sure if such a car exists, I totally just made up a number there.)

If you want to produce or have something, work must be done in order to have it happen. Objects do not just spontaneously generate, free of charge. In the case where you deal with another person, they will most times expect something in return. Even if it is intangible, such as “your friendship” or “your good will”.

Peter.8047:

GW1 is a better game, that’s why people are upset. GW2 should of been the next step of GW1, not a completely different game.

Actually . . . it kind of is the next step of Guild Wars 1.

There was grind in Guild Wars 1, and not just for cosmetic advancements. There was gated content in Guild Wars 1. While there was no “gear treadmill” there was “skill elitism” in PvE and “show me your /rank” in PvP.

If the Manifesto is supposed to be a representative of what the developers hold closely, then GW1 should be included in conversations about it. Or, and this is another good opinion . . . the Manifesto was made from what the developers learned while making GW1 and it is their ideal state of game.

. . . but an ideal modeled state is not a real state. Ask any engineer.

I think “our Thanksgiving celebrations” refers to the facts:

- The company is based in the US.
- The US observes Thanksgiving as a holiday.
- The offices are probably only going to be at a skeleton staff that day.
- Hence by “our Thanksgiving celebrations” they mean “before we go spend time with our families and away from work issues”.

Adam Baum.6170:

1. Who here, still come to forums but play the game much less?
me. :-)
2. When did you start playing less?
About mid way through Halloween event.
3. Why / What caused the decline in time spent?
Gaming crashing more and more often. So I wait for an update to see if it helps.

. . . considered looking at your RAM? Last time I had an issue like that it was because I lost a chip on one of my sticks.

slazzy.7309:

Seven.8326:

heres a pro tip too man if you wanna enjoy this game dont ever come to these forums or enter at your own risk.

Dude, totally agree. To the OP, don’t come here ever again. This is not a true sampling of how the pop feels, no matter what anyone says. Check the reddit/r/guildwars2 site, check guildwars2forum.com for cool chatter, but not here. Seriously. This is not a place for educated discussion. It doesn’t happen here. The other community sites on reddit and guildwars2forum are a far better place to discuss issues and feel like you are part of a community. Not here.

. . . I’d also stay off Reddit. Much as I love how informative and useful it can be, fundamentally it’s like the forums here with a little more “community-based moderation” going on in the form of downvotes/upvotes.

ZombiesTT.3619:

That chart can’t be right; it has second life with 800k subs…

Actually . . . hold on.

Nope, some people I know say Second Life probably does still have that many people using it. Then again, it’s not really a game from how they describe it, but a sandbox. A graphical MUCK using 3D models instead of text.

1: I play the game less primarily because I spent a fair amount of time this last weekend playing. I have other things I wanted to do (helping out with some friends’ stuff, having to get the heat back on in the house, you know, the usual RL interference), but when I get on it feels like I’m not supposed to be enjoying myself. And if I do, I am somehow wrong. So right about there the guilt kicks in for enjoying myself.

2: I move in cycles, truth be told. I play for short bursts of intense periods once or twice a month, then cut back towards only doing a few things a day. Too much of this game will burn me out, just like I burned out on other games.

3: I answered this in the other two, but . . . if there’s a problem with Guild Wars 2 for me, it’s the community (outside my guild, naturally). Rather, it’s the lovely people who feel the need to go “oh you’re not really having fun” as I’m playing. I’m not playing a game, I’m chasing a grind. I’m not restocking supplies to build more armor for people asking me for it, I’m hoping for sweet loot drops. I’m not chipping in on helping an event actually succeed, I’m facilitating a broken system.

What is it that keeps me coming back? The community. The people who saw me hanging around Southsun Cove exploring for hidden goodies and went: “hey, it’s you!” in a positive way. The people who I give help to and actually mean it when they say thanks. The two people I did an event at Jolfast’s Waypoint with where we had to have mowed down almost a dozen dozen of Risen but we were too stubborn to stop, until we could get more people there to put it down for good. The small group who I joined up with then doing the Temple of Melandru for my personal first time ever, and were happy to have someone showing up on an off-hour point. The people who tell me “thanks friend” for pointing out Rich Ore Veins.

Karizee.8076:

I think of it as a magical magnifying glass that concentrates energies for special abilities.

Love my flower focus. “I keel you with my flower!”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Rose_Focus

I loved mine too, Gwen had it in hand pretty much exclusively after I got it.

A Focus?

Far as I have understood it, this is a shortening of the phrase “channeling focus”, referencing any object which allows an individual to send their will through it in order to boost its effectiveness. Crystal balls, holy symbols, wands, amulets, relics, talismans, fetishes, totems, these pretty much all are the same thing when you look at it in a broader scope.

If you check out the old GW1 wiki about “Focus” you’ll see they used to fill the off-hand slot for any caster class instead of a shield. Generally used to help boost their Energy pool or skill recharge time.

VOLKON.1290:

I will be sad if candy cane shards don’t appear. I still have a bunch in GW1 and I’m trying to figure out a way to smuggle them into the HoM…

Two words: scrying pool.