This thread is inane.
Event maps require far less playtesting and balancing than PvP maps as they’re made for a short term appeal rather than competitive longevity.
Furthermore, how do you know they allotted 5 years of development to PvP? I’m sure at least a year was devoted to preproduction, a few more to revisions after they had started working, and so forth. Take this as you will, but it took ANet until two months (I believe) before launch for them to finish their final profession.
Focus is situationally useful while OH dagger is always at least somewhat useful. The general proferrence of OH dagger comes down to that really. In PvE I carry a focus around for ranged heavy instances and dungeons with instagib attacks that are difficult to avoid, but most of the time I use an OH dagger.
I think, for balance reasons, it’s easier to nerf something than to buff it. When you nerf a spec, people will stop using it as frequently or not at all, so the user has to compensate for the loss by finding other builds. When you buff a spec, players will be more likely to use it and everyone its being used on will need to compensate for their relative decrease in power.
In the case of RTL, the pathing issues may be more difficult to resolve than the attunement reset bug. There are also some traits that just aren’t working. There’s little excuse for that :/
Downstate is a great addition in my opinion because it adds a further stage before dying and that alone makes the game less annoying to play, if that’s because its psychology or what I don’t know. I hate it in games when you get zerged by a load of players then oh great I have a fun run back to my corpse.
Downstate let’s you fight on and feel heroic “I shall never give in!”.
Even if you die any way lol.
Conceptually, I agree with you and until I started to play WvW in earnest it was pretty great. In WvW, however, it shifts balance too far towards an uninteresting and unbalanced playstyle. I would rather see it gone in WvW just to shift the balance back a bit. It absolutely kills me when a player asks in team chat “where’s the zerg” and far too many mechanics favor it at the moment.
My opinions are coming from a solo and small group player. You can check the vids in my signature to verify.
I like the downed state mechanic. Yes, it makes winning fights when you are outnumbered harder… but things that challenge me are what keeps me playing. You try to come up with solutions to a problem. In all of my builds I sacrifice damage to pick up things to help my team manage downed state.
Now, with that said here are two things I HATE about the downed state system in WvW.
1) Players should not get rallied from MOB kills in WvW. Period.
2) Players who have been stomped should be forced to respawn in WvW. It sucks to be fighting a 5v20 (for example) and get people downed AND stomped but end up losing since you can’t keep that many people from rezzing STOMPED players.
Fix those two things and I’ll be a very happy solo and small group customer. Keep the overall downed state mechanic as it adds a great amount of tension to a fight, which I love.
+1 to this
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Downstate is a good addition to GW2’s play, removing it would be a bad thing.
The only problem with downstate, is it cause inane threads like this. Instead of just playing the game, some people need something to moan about on the forums, downstate is just one of them.
So, instead of attacking the contributors to this thread, would you mind posting some counter arguments or even supporting your own? For instance, what makes downstate a good addition to GW2’s play and how would removing it affect players negatively in WvW?
I’m all for this. Current systems and mechanics make it too rewarding to zerg around with others. It actually disadvantages small groups since they’ll be mass AoE’d to death after being downed anyway.
Underwater fights are far too spammy. The entire system needs to be redone to be more strategic before its even considered as part of a competitive rotation.
You mean players need to make choices and deal with the tradeoffs?
I like it.
There was a big indirect nerf to the D/D element in the sense that a lot of classes got a massive movement speed buff, meaning D/D is no longer one of the most mobile classes. Intended or not, I don’t know. But clearly D/D elements wont be as good in chasing/escaping anymore.
I think we can still outrun both Rangers and Mesmers any day. Mesmers are only getting higher swiftness uptime. Rangers lack a blink and aren’t that threatening even if they managed to catch us.
Wait what? There are no significant nerfs. What’s the catch?
Players do have the tools to encourage growth of viewership and interest in PvP through streams and the like. The problem is conquest isn’t the most exciting mode to watch. Streamer’s can’t very well force their players to be interested, and if they’re not getting enough traffic it’s in their best interest to move onto a game that does.
Most challenging: Mesmer
Most Annoying: Thief
It boggles my mind how players prefer to win the easy way by circumventing challenge rather than make their victories meaningful by overcoming them. The excuse about this being part of the meta is absolutely hilarious.
I honestly mean no offense by this, but is this your first time playing video games? I mean I am sure this was happening back in Pong, some kind of dark side of human nature I suppose, and there will probably always be some small group that does this. That is why I suggest some form of moderation/referee.
I bet there’s a lot of strategic depth to stopping your opponent from pressing buttons in pong. One could say taking away his controller is part of the metagame!
EU players are actively trying to develop their meta, but with the current systems and designs in place I don’t see much room for it to evolve. Everything’s balanced around point holding. There can technically be many strategies and builds revolving around that, but it’s still only one narrow objective and the current maps don’t allow for much variance in achieving it.
It boggles my mind how players prefer to win the easy way by circumventing challenge rather than make their victories meaningful by overcoming them. The excuse about this being part of the meta is absolutely hilarious.
and this is why there is so much QQ about stealthers in MMOs. everyone things their class is balanced(or even under powered) and all other classes are over powered.
Dear devs.
Nerf rock. Paper is good like it is.
Your’s truly,
ScissorsHappens in every game.
Not sure what’s more insulting. The fact that you misquoted or the fact that you ignored the entire context of the discussion.
The Mesmer’s stealth on the the other hand is done correctly
and this is why there is so much QQ about stealthers in MMOs. everyone things their class is balanced(or even under powered) and all other classes are over powered.
combine this with the fact that stealthers are usually the least played class, and that makes everyone have some hate for thieves/rogues/etc
Nice try but I’m an ele. I’m speaking specifically from a design perspective. The Mesmer is simply more interesting to fight against than thief stealth because of how Mesmer’s version of stealth interacts with their set of skills. The Thief’s stealth is a spammy cheese tactic by comparison.
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My problem with with the thieves’ stealth isn’t that it’s unbalanced or even difficult to counter, but that it’s incredibly uninteresting and spammy. The way it functions is pretty much “I’m gonna stealth so you can’t hit me. Neener neener!”
The Mesmer’s stealth on the the other hand is done correctly. Decoy along with deceptive evasion can very easily trick opponents in the midst of battle, and they have mechanics to further punish those tricked by this. Mass invisibility can be used to pull off some incredible party tactics. And to top it off, it’s not a spamtastic mechanic.
2. I think it would make sense for channeled and incoming ranged attacks to disjoint after stealth. From my experience with the Elementalist’s arc lighting skill however ANet seems to have trouble with channeling skills and targets that are no longer targetable (dead or invis) so it might be a technical issue that prevents them from implementing this. For now treat it as a counter to slealth, lol…
3. IMO, the thief profession simply needs to be redone. Conceptually and mechanically its cheesy profession that adds little to PvP interactions. That’s not to say that they’re hard to beat, but they’re simply not very interesting or fun to fight against.
The real problem is initiative and how it promotes spamming of key skills. Whether intended by the user or the fault of the stupid skill queue system, it’s become a spam mehcanic. In multiplayer games these spam mechanics. especially those that work absurdly well, tend to leave those on the receiving end frustrated and dissatisfied with the experience and prevent the ones using them from becoming more experienced with more complex tactics. Why ANet let this pass is beyond me.
Additionally Heartseeking is tied with deathblossom, a skill that also moves you uncontrollably, as one of the most functionally broken thief skills. If not the entire profession, those two skills need to be redone.
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That brings up the problem of the poor distribution of easy to play specs. Thieves are the one of the two or three professions that have builds suited to introduce them into PvP. You can easily argue that players can always switch to the thief, but this is an MMORPG. Players in this genre are generally more attached to the class they most resonate with in than the ones most, and will tend to be more frustrated when it doesn’t function the way they want it to. If they’re not a thief in hotjoin they’re really getting the short end of the stick from their perspective.
Additionally some of these builds are effective to an extreme, and this is evident when those easy to play GC builds can instagib within 1-2 seconds. This certainly doesn’t help when the current hotjoin meta is zerg for glory. Furthermore, the lack of a much needed bridge between hotjoin and tournament PvP exacerbates the problem with understanding the feedback new players and how important it is.
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Better yet, there needs to be a counter strategy to use against teams using currently imbalanced teams. If you nerf those classes, especially in this context, players will be dissatisfied. Similarly if you restrict them from using it, they’ll have a harder time getting together players with the right skills. If you gives players the ability to counter this, they’ll only feel more clever in doing so.
3+ ele team comp requires 0 skill and strategy it’s class mechanic abuse to the max. Crap like this is why this game has no competitive scene, it’s just stupid and core mechanic balance issues.
Well, it’s technically a build strategy, but I get where you’re coming from. I don’t think that putting a cap on player professions will really solve this issue, it’ll only divert it slightly until the next OP comp that is withing the profession cap comes about.
That, and there’s really only 8 professions. With profession caps you’ll artificially limit variety given the low number of professions. It could work if they did caps on weapon types, but I honestly don’t see ANet being able to do that. It’s too messy.
Better yet, there needs to be a counter strategy to use against teams using currently imbalanced teams. If you nerf those classes, especially in this context, players will be dissatisfied. Similarly if you restrict them from using it, they’ll have a harder time getting together players with the right skills. If you gives players the ability to counter this, they’ll only feel more clever in doing so.
Well, if the state of PvP was perfect you wouldn’t hear much criticism.
If the state of pvp was perfect, no one would notice because no one has the exact same idea of “perfect”.
Player’s are better off to accept things as they are and learn to work with what their given. That mentality get’s a player to start looking at their situation and start problem solving and the more they problem solve, the stronger they get as players.That’s the most backwards of logic. Players that accept imbalance and poor design only serve to feed them. Look at hotjoin and what new PvPers are introduced when they first start playing. ANet needs to step in and fix their game, because balance and a competitive environment is designed. It’s relative success of players using the strategies the developers encourage them to use and the format and environment they use them it. It doesn’t form from pure entropy.
How is it backwards? Labeling challenges as insurmountable is useless, and does nothing to help one grow. So if you reject the possibility that something is impossible to beat, the next logical step is to analyze the challenge and find a means to overcome it. It may be hard but once you make a breakthrough you can start building off that, fine tuning it, perfecting your execution, until finally you’ll overcome the challenge, and the spoils of this victory all the practical experience you’ve gained along the way.
Uh… what?
I don’t think you can define the issues with GW2’s PvP as “challenges” for the players. The only challenges it offers at the moment is for them to coming back.
Well, if the state of PvP was perfect you wouldn’t hear much criticism.
If the state of pvp was perfect, no one would notice because no one has the exact same idea of “perfect”.
Player’s are better off to accept things as they are and learn to work with what their given. That mentality get’s a player to start looking at their situation and start problem solving and the more they problem solve, the stronger they get as players.
That’s the most backwards of logic. Players that accept imbalance and poor design only serve to feed them. Look at hotjoin and what new PvPers are introduced when they first start playing. ANet needs to step in and fix their game, because balance and a competitive environment is designed. It’s relative success of players using the strategies the developers encourage them to use and the format and environment they use them it. It doesn’t form from pure entropy.
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Well, if the state of PvP was perfect you wouldn’t hear much criticism.
Matter of preferrence, as both offer different types of support. S/D has a total of 4 blast finisher as opposed to the staff’s 1 finisher. It also puts out okay constant dps pressure with lightning skills, and has generally better damage than a staff. The range disadvantage shouldn’t be much of a factor since you need to stay close to your teammates to support them anyway. Staff has Healing Rain but I honesty prefer the burst heals available from S/D and phoenix can do a decent job at cleansing. I also prefer the dagger offhand due to earthquake and updraft, both of which can be used to interrupt more efficiently than static ring,.
Calling this an issue of profession imbalance is a bit of a red herring. The issue is that players, especially those of lower skill level, are dissatisfied with the balance based on their experience. The issue that causes these players isn’t one of balance but of the structure of pvp, and this issue shouldn’t be gleaned over by trivializing these player’s complaints.
What ANet needs to do a design or restructure the casual metagame to better accomodate these players and prepare them for higher skilled players. Hotjoinand sPvP is currently is good for nothing but farming glory with glass cannon builds, so of course newbies who are unable to enter tournamnets will get the sort of impression of balance that they do from playing these modes. There needs to be a mode to help these players get to the level of experienced players.
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Scepter does okay in team fights. It has 2 blast finishers, one doubling as condition removal and 2 blinds. DT and Phoenix are only difficult to hit whilst roaming, but for bunkering and team fights they function great for stacking might and zoning.
Dagger has better close range AoEs and a very good aura, making it ideal for roaming and close range support.
I prefer dagger since it’s often more useful, but scepter does okay. It’s certainly not so far behind as to not be competitive.
They needed something really awesome with a lot of depth, and conquest mode is not that. It could be something more complex like dota or GvG or some completely original game type, but even strait up 3v3 arena has more depth than conquest imo. Lots of games have had a conquest game type, but I don’t know of a single one that has used it for tournaments and been remotely successful as an e-sport.
I usually prefer objective-based games to arenas, but GW2 just works better in small-scale fights. I think 3v3 arenas would probably work really well.
Arenas would be a fun addition, but I don’t think they would ever be competitive since it’s hard to create something engaging out of them.
There will always be tiers in a game. Perfect balance is impossible in basically every game unless everyone is literally the same (Chess).
In chess, the player who goes first has a statistical advantage. Although that doesn’t necessarily guarantee victory, it’s an advantage still.
And to answer TC’s question, perfect balance is not achievable, ever. However, balance such that there are numerous, well established strategies and counters involved in the metagame is possible and should be the aim of this game. There will always be that one golden spec that is too effective at what it does, and when the nerfbat hits it another spec will take its place. Similarly, new specs and builds that are introduced or discovered by players can sometimes change the metagame, causing nerfs to the new spec or buffs to obsolete ones. Evidence of imbalances discovered by players is a sign that the metagame is constantly evolving and fresh, and thereby healthy.
With GW2, however, these imbalances occur too far to one extreme or another due to the game mode they chose. Coupled with low population and general lack of interest, you have a recipe for disaster.
Think you hit the nail on the head. I would also like to ask if the type of match we have in Spvp is the main reason its unbalanced?
It’s hard to say. I admittedly haven’t played too much PvP outside of WvW, since I don’t find conquest mode in its current incarnation to be too exciting. But to me it seems that there are multiple things at fault. I’d say that the overemphasis on build counters rather than strategic counters is one of them. Another factor could be that there’s little sense of progression within the same map other than a point. You’re either winning by holding points or you’re losing. The result is a bunker heavy meta, and to be perfectly honest it’s just boring. Players haven’t deviated from this because ANet hasn’t provided them with the option to.
What I think ANet could do is focus on adding in more options to players in the form strategies and counter strategies, and they need to add in lots of them. In multiplayer games, depth shouldn’t be based solely on the potency of player professions but by the strategies players employ with those professions. That said, I believe ANet should build these strategies into their maps, rather than swinging their nerfbats at classes based on the current bunker meta that resulted from their current maps in order to force players to find new strategies for them. It’ll take time on ANet’s part but I believe this to be the best solution. Additionally, with many different strategies for each profession to perform, I believe the devs would have the advantage of balancing professions on how well they can perform various roles required of them to pull off certain strategies, rather than on specific profession vs profession matchups, the latter of which seems much harder. This might even quiet some of the moaning on the forums as well as players right now are too focused on the shallow imbalances of individual matchups.
Another thing they could do is add some sort of progression to their matches which require teams to adapt and change their strategies. This is something I mentioned earlier because many multiplayer games such as TF2 and Dota employ this to great success; TF2 only has a few popular maps and Dota games only need to use one! The reason progression is effective is that promotes a type of poker game between teams and promotes reactionary strategies. In other words it helps create a more dynamic experience.
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+1
I think this in addition to better matchmaking, map selection and less emphasis on glory per kill will make the game more friendly to newcomers and casuals.
There will always be tiers in a game. Perfect balance is impossible in basically every game unless everyone is literally the same (Chess).
In chess, the player who goes first has a statistical advantage. Although that doesn’t necessarily guarantee victory, it’s an advantage still.
And to answer TC’s question, perfect balance is not achievable, ever. However, balance such that there are numerous, well established strategies and counters involved in the metagame is possible and should be the aim of this game. There will always be that one golden spec that is too effective at what it does, and when the nerfbat hits it another spec will take its place. Similarly, new specs and builds that are introduced or discovered by players can sometimes change the metagame, causing nerfs to the new spec or buffs to obsolete ones. Evidence of imbalances discovered by players is a sign that the metagame is constantly evolving and fresh, and thereby healthy.
With GW2, however, these imbalances occur too far to one extreme or another due to the game mode they chose. Coupled with low population and general lack of interest, you have a recipe for disaster.
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Speaking as someone who has rarely ever had a problem fighting thieves, I wouldn’t mind if they redesigned the profession entirely or even got rid of it. The stealth mechanics and burstinedd promotes cheesing in low level sPvP, making the class frustrating for new players to fight against. Often argue that there are counters and they’re totally right, but the fact that many are complaining about the mechanic should be evidence enough that they’re just not fun or interesting to fight against.
To drive this point home, look at the effect the GC thief build has on both the user and the opponent. The most basic of builds provides 2 options for the thieves: burst enemy down or run away. Similarly the one defending against them has their options severely reduced due to the initial burst. A class or spec that reduces the number of options for the both user and the opponent needs some redesigning because it not only makes the game less engaging for the opponent but also for the user
Now that we’re on the subject, burst specs need some rethinking in general because they have similar effects on player choices.
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No, if you want a moba game you have plenty of other options. The game may need some things, but this isn’t one of them.
Indeed. People have realized this and left.
While I don’t think the game needs a MOBA mode, it definitely needs something more engaging than conquest mode, or at least a spin on conquest mode that more engaging than the current one.
Here’s the tricky thing about balancing for multiplayer games: You need to balance for both new and veteran players. For new players, the devs need to provide low input-high output tools to give these players a chance against more experienced players and get them to be comfortable with their profession before they’re introduced to higher skill builds. For veteran players, there needs to be a greater focus on counterplay.
So far the current meta has failed to balance with respect to both of these groups. Thieves, bursty mesmer specs, and to an extent wariors (classes which not everyone wants to play) are downright too powerful in the hotjoin meta and new players trying any other class will be farmed. It’s definitely not a fun experience for the latter group. Furthermore, hotjoin doesn’t prepare players for tournament level play. Those running teams that aren’t premade are likely to be farmed by more experienced premade teams.
If players even manage to get into a paid tournament, the current meta provides too few options to play as there is too much emphasis on bunkering.
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I think the developers were so focused on creating a balanced and strategic PvP to go e-sports that they forgot to consider whether it was fun or not.
I think this is one of the problems causing of bleedout of players. While the system current might be designed to be balanced for tPvP (I’d argue that they aren’t) it simply doesn’t provide interactions that are interesting enough for the casual playerbase. The core combat system is wonderful. I’d say it’s the best of any mmo. The maps, however, don’t promote any interesting play. It’s just point defense over and over with little variation of strategy.
I used to think the same thing until I started playing tournaments more and realized how different the maps are. The secondary objects really change the play style of the maps that you just don’t realize playing outside of an organized group.
I would love to see more modes to play in too but conquest is really a lot better than most people give it credit because of hotjoins ruining all the strategy in it.
It’s still too little variation. I think ANet should design the map for casual play while keeping balanced ones for tPvP. That way they’d up the retention of casuals, players who serve as the audience for high level play.
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Piercing Shards-Decent. This trait allows you to attune to Water while channeling other skills for a 20% damage boost to vulnerable enemies. This includes skill like Churning Earth and Fire Grab. The one thing that holds this skill back is the fact that we don’t have a reliable method of applying vulnerable outside of Water. It’s also facing competition from some of our best traits.
Toughness scales better for Eles and Gaurdians as both classes have access to high protection uptime. In addition to this, Eles have a lot condition removal so low vitality isn’t that big of a problem.
As Bhima said, P/V/T armor offers a good balance of attack power and survivability.
the 7-Series is a good substitute for our elites because of its amazing damage output.
Except that the recharge is almost 3 times as long, it lasts 20 seconds less and you can’t pick the type of summon. It doesn’t buff your allies either. So sorry, but I disagree. We have one of the best summon elite skills in the game. Cool as golems may be, they’re no substitute. Not by a long shot.
It lasts 40 seconds and uses barrage 3 times before it disappears. Between those attacks it used a a ranged punch that deals about 2-3k damage. As for the skill itself, it goes on cooldown immediately after summoning the golem rather than being locked until the summon dies. You’re looking at 140 second downtime between summons rather than 180. It’s a pretty good tradeoff.
Eles already have a lot of condition removal without it, and few run condition sets. It’s good skill in and of itself but it faces competition from Armor of Earth, Lightning Flash and Mist Form, all of which complement any Ele build. I think it needs a bit of a tweak to make it mesh better with the other skills. A cooldown reduction isn’t the way to go, however. Maybe if it removed 1-2 boons per use instead of cleansing conditions, it’d fill a big gap in the Ele’s arsenal.
With Shocking Aura they were getting stunned every time they hit the Ele, and saying they were wearing whites is pretty much an excuse, everyone who is 80 assume are in fully exotic gear, and everyone under that is in green gear, there were only 2 underconned players, the other 4 were level 80, they did not use there CCs correctly, but you cannot tell me that that isn’t insane if there were 2-3 more eles with him doing the same thing, they could ring around the rosey and destroy people in groups.
They could of course if those groups pf players are very bad. I do the same thing on my Engineer and Mesmer actually when I see a group of bads. What server is this anyway? On my server I have trouble handling 2 players at a time on any of my character after we moved up to mid tier, because players in this tier are actually competent and know how to use their abilities. Maybe I’ll transfer to kaineng or something and play exclusively on my engineer to start the stereotype of Engineers being OP.
Shocking Aura only works in melee range. You’d think that a pretty obvious animation and annoying buzzing sound would be a good indicator, but these players are very bad after all.
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Many of those people were bad. They were wearing whites and rarely used cc, condition removals etc. They were also classes countered by d/d eles. Pit us up against one competent Mesmer, Guardian or Engineer and it’s a completely different story; we’d have problems simply avoiding ccs and would often be forced to run away.
Eles cannot get 30 seconds of protection, that’s not to say we don’t have high protection uptime. It depends on how long we stay in earth attunement. With max boon duration we’re looking at maybe 7 seconds of protection every time we switch to earth, and it’s not likely that we’ll switch out without using at least some skills like earthquake or churning earth. The same goes for regeneration.
4-5 eles doing the same thing? It may be a powerful roaming group but in now way would it stop a zerg. But if victory hinged on killing noobs and caravans then I suppose it’d be op.
You can keep auras up with signets for a long time especially if you use D/D’s auras however auras are most useful in fights so you need to take into account the duration of a fight and decide if you need short term auras from D/D with utilities or long term spammable aura’s from signets without utilities. I only just discovered the build and I don’t have specialised armor for it but with your runes of the monk/water do the boons from the aura’s outlast the recharge of D/D’s auras or signet’s auras?
For arcana use VI renewing stamina or X Arcane energy if you are using signet’s.
The fury and swiftness of shocking lasts around 17 seconds with 60% boon duration while the ones from frost aura lasts about 8 seconds. Coupled with fury on attunement swap, you should have have permanent fury swiftness while giving your party about 70% uptime on those boons.
I’d say Asura. They get access to a poison field and the 7-Series is a good substitute for our elites because of its amazing damage output. Pain Inverter can be pretty hilarious in WvW with a D/D roamer build.
@Loco
Agreed, and it’s not just D/D eles either. I can take on multiple opponents with several of my level 80 characters because players in WvW are either undergeared or just plain bad. The disparity of skill and gear can be very large. Just the other day I was able to down several players, one of who was a level 80 thief, on my engineer using toolkit and grenades. They were so weak/bad that I even made an effort to hit downed enemies with a toolkit wrench for the lulz.
It’s the kind sticky situation they’ve put us in by giving us access to twenty weapon skills at a time, with the ability to cycle through them. If they make our individual skills as powerful as other classes, we would have insane burst capabilities with stance dancing. On the other hand, we’ve been balanced such that a bunch of our skills are so situational or weak that they’re often used to little or no effect.
I’ve been running 0/10/0/30/30 D/D in WvW since September so I’ll chime in with my experiences. First off, I don’t believe the build is overpowered. Its a rarity among all the profession specs because of the relatively low number of successful elementalist players and the important but simple niche that staff users occupy in team fights. The distinct advantage of rare specs is that people aren’t used to fighting them. Compound it with the fact that the build is really good at what it does, and you have a very effective and hard to counter build. This is the same thing Mesmers have going for them again inexperienced players.
Now why am I praising this build if I think it’s not overpowered? That’s because my praise for it ends there. D/D can be very situationally good in WvW, but the situations its good in doesn’t necessarily warp the meta unlike certain other classes. Aside form maybe stopping a a small group supply camp stealthers it doesn’t necessarily do much good for your server to be able to eventually duel 1 or 2 players at the same time. In zerg v zerg, which is what ANet seems to want WvW to be balanced around, D/D is a terrible idea as its survivability hinges on health upkeep through heals and regen and not pure damage resistance. It’s good for timed melee pushes and flanking but for that to happen there needs to be ranged AoE first to reduce enemy. Even during flanks and pushes warriors and thieves do a better job of quickly focusing key players down.
As previously mentioned there also the matter of the relative skill of your opponents. For those of your commenting, it helps to post this type of context of your experiences since for a build because it establishes relative player skills. When I first started using the build, my server which is Northern Shiverpeaks was in the lower brackets. This build was incredibly effective then because most players weren’t used to the combat system and were just bad and disorganized, making them easy to pick off even in zerg v zerg. Now that we’re in the mid-tier I find this build to be far less effective because most everyone is at least compentent. If I encounter a medium-sized group there’s a high chance that someone will cc me and make me waste a condition removal or else I’d instantly melt. When solo-roaming or scouting there are players running specs that counter d/d and know how to use them against me. Some players who aren’t prepared to fight me flee to their keeps or use sentries (sometimes very effectively) for protection.
As for sPvP, I don’t have much experience outside of viewing streams and hotjoin. I think it’s a strong but it has exploitable drawbacks, just like any other build. No need to touch it there.
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I don’t have much experience in tournaments so I’m speaking from the perspective of Hotjoin and WvW.
Mesmers have all the tools to deal with D/D eles, although it becomes a game who times their attacks better. As a D/D ele I find that aggressive play works best against power based shatter builds while confusion bombing Mesmers with staff gives me the most trouble. If I’m successfully bombed after using my ether renewal I only have chance of removing confusion by attuning to water or I have to wait it out.
Hammer guardians seem to give me trouble as well as they can outdamage and regen defensive d/d damage, and they commonly have resistance to knockback in form of stability. They can be a lot of trouble for D/D eles with successful use of Ring of Warding.
Theoretically, Necro’s would give common boon-based D/D eles trouble but I’ve yet to meet one that I couldn’t outmaneuver and outplay. If I find myself on the wrong side of a corruption I can often shrug it off with Ether Renewal or Cleansing Flame.
To make these traits worth it you need to spec 15 into Arcana for lingering elements. Traits like Piercing Shards are actually good now that ANet has made them work. In fact, I’d say the most practical spike build for Eles involves something along the lines of 25 Air, 25 Water and 20 arcana D/D with Piercing Shards and this is already very similar to what people are already using. The pigeon hole gets deeper and deeper.
Lingering elements currently only works with adept minor traits (except earth which is bugged).
That’s strange. I believe I’ve gotten it to work with Piercing Shards. My Burning Speed + Ring of Fire were certainly hitting harder in hotjoin. Back to the test dummies!
Edit: You were right about lingering elements not affecting piercing shards, but if you swap into water while channeling skills, you’ll get the 20% bonus assuming the target has at least 1 stack of vulnerable.
With 0/25/0/25/20 and no jewels I was hitting the light golem for roughly 1300 and the medium golem for 1100 with Churning Earth without attuning to water. With 1 stack of vulnerable and attuneing to water I was hitting the light for 1600 and the medium for 1300. Not bad at all.
(edited by TwoBit.5903)