Guild Wars 2

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

Each class should have a selection of weapons that are more balanced for solo play. 90% of the game is open world communal events. If you want to do dungeons or pvp then it should have been clear from the “mmo” game description that you will be playing alongside other players. This is exactly what op was talking about: This is an mmo where everyone plays by themselves. And it is supremely shallow because of it.

I found myself playing far more by myself in other MMOs with the trinity. I was healing so I was looking at little green bars and not really playng with people at all. If I did well no one cared. If I did badly it was the end of the world.

Yeah it was very social. I’m so glad I don’t have to put up with that crap here.

I think your anecdote is irrelevant, if you didn’t enjoy healing then you shouldn’t have played a healer. Now of course people won’t rage at you for doing a “bad job”, support is mostly inconsequential.

Except people pressure you, if they know you have a healer to play one. It happens all the time. And if no one wants to heal there is no dungeon.

Great stuff. I wish I could do it all again.

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

Each class should have a selection of weapons that are more balanced for solo play. 90% of the game is open world communal events. If you want to do dungeons or pvp then it should have been clear from the “mmo” game description that you will be playing alongside other players. This is exactly what op was talking about: This is an mmo where everyone plays by themselves. And it is supremely shallow because of it.

I found myself playing far more by myself in other MMOs with the trinity. I was healing so I was looking at little green bars and not really playng with people at all. If I did well no one cared. If I did badly it was the end of the world.

Yeah it was very social. I’m so glad I don’t have to put up with that crap here.

I’d love to add you but it wouldn’t do you a lick of good. Whiteside Ridge is a European server and I’m on a US server. You couldn’t join my guild because you couldn’t play with my guild.

You’re much better off looking for guilds on your server.

Ceridwen.6703:

I’m anti-social. I’d love to be all social and in there and chatting all the time and stuff… but I’m just not that person. I’m in a guild of one and a half (that half being my kid, and she only plays to have fun, and doesn’t do any form of progression. She likes to bunny-hop around), although I did do a guild once or twice before, and they weren’t really my sort of people to play with.

Whenever I’ve gotten myself in a group (I tend to think this a mistake on my part), I start to panic somewhat, and don’t feel I can live up to any expectation I imagine the other players may have (admittedly when I’m on the ranger, I should think their expectations are low). I still try to succeed, because I, with all my anti-social ridiculousness, can believe in a greater good and working for it, even if that means in a group situation. I don’t want to let them down, I absolutely hate that idea, and that’s why I’d usually avoid it if I feel too nervous. As dumb as that may be. Sometimes I’ve got to force myself through this stuff – and yeah, if it goes well, I’ll feel better afterwards. Even though it’s just a game, I’ll take it as a win and even use it in RL if I have to.

I haven’t found any concept of guild I feel totally comfortable with, even if on some days I feel like “today could be the day! I could join a guild today and it will be a good fit!” I never get past just looking at a Guild Launch page, or an ages old server guild list. I also know I’m just too chaotic when it comes down to it, and sooner or later, cannot be relied upon. Even if I want to be approaching reliable, I’m just not. Something happens and I switch off.

Forcing me into having to play socially with others breaks my mind. Well… it doesn’t, not really, nothing quite so dramatic. But I do have to be feeling unnaturally confident to succeed. I know I can succeed, I’ve done it before, and I try to be open to ideas and new things, but I don’t like being forced into something. I’d rather decide for myself, not have a game or others do it for me. If what I decide happens to coincide with the game or others, then I’m sure it’s all good. But I don’t feel so bad if it doesn’t, and I will do something else instead. I am acutely aware of my limitations, and if something is trying to run counter to this, I just won’t do it (so a lot of jumping puzzles and things like SAB are out).

The best thing about this game is I don’t have to do things with other people if I don’t want to. There’s really nothing here like that. It’s only if I decide I’m focused on achievements, or ending the personal story, or doing marionettes, or whatever, that I have to co-operate. And yet I still decide if I want to do that or not. I’m not forced into anything unless I put myself in that position in the first place – and if I do put myself there, it’s with the foreknowledge of it involving others. I wouldn’t necessarily describe this as a social environment, however. With some of the backchat and nasty comments, it’s anything but. Sociopathic, maybe. It’s certainly not healthy.

If I miss something I find interesting (anything story or lore related for example), either due to time or “forced” constraints, I’ll look it up on the Wiki or similar. It may not be the same as experiencing it first hand, but frankly, I have a hard time reading/watching stuff first hand owing to the panic of doing stuff with other people who want it done yesterday anyway (dungeon story modes, I’m looking at you!).

Sounds like my guild would be perfect for you. hahahaha

That’s why guilds are so important in this game. If you find a guild that fits your playstyle, you’ll make friends in it…and have people around for when you need help or have questions.

laokoko.7403:

I was just hoping for something like guild halls, or guild wars, GvsG.

I don’t get why I can’t ask for something like that.

People can have their own opinion. Because people enjoy different things.

You can ask for that. But none of those things are going to make non-social people social, that’s all.

As for Guild Halls, they’ve always been on the agenda, they’re simply taking time to make. As for GvG, I honestly don’t know why that wasn’t included. I always felt it should have been.

But it’s one thing to say the game lacks a social aspect and then point to other games were people are forced to guild or miss out as shining examples of what MMOs should be. In case you haven’t noticed, most of those other games haven’t done very well for themselves.

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

laokoko.7403:

My perspective is I’m always playing with different people all the time. It’s hard to build a community when people you play with keeps changing.

Let’s say you go to a world event. Look around you. How many people do you really know? Sure you have people to play with. But you don’t know them.

You use the words “forcing to play together”. Which in another word for there is nothing require a community of people to play together.

And I’m not sure what server community you are talking about with all the guesting.

My guild plays together all the time in spite of the fact there’s nothing forcing us to do so. Therefore I have a social game. I’m not sure why you’d think being forced to play with strangers who you might or might not like is better.

A guild can have a theme. It can be competitive. Casual. Speed runners. And you fit in better with that guild, because they play like you.

Since my guild plays together, even though we’re not forced to, I know it’s possible. I’m not sure why you think there’s a problem. The game is as social as you make it.

uknortherner.2670:

Algreg.3629:

well, yes, there is some p2w-element in the game, was there from the very beginning. Buy win or not, your choice, it is as easy as that. And if those few dollars/euros are too much for you, well, chances are, you should be thinking about your career instead of wasting too many hours in a game anyway.

A few dollars or euros? That resource gathering set costs £40, or $80 or whatever it is in euros! There’s nothing “micro” about these transactions.

Perhaps one day you will grow up, have a family, mortgage, responsibilities, or just count yourself lucky that you were able to hold on to your job during this economic crisis which has seen many people lose their jobs and homes overnight. All of which has appeared to have completely passed you by, or you simply grew up in a privileged household where your parents never knew when to say “no”. People have financial responsibilities outside of gaming, you know. Did it ever occur to you that some people work 70-80 hour weeks for a meagre salary and resort to gaming to get their minds off things?

Show some consideration for those of us who are not as well off as you.

But none of those things are required to play the game. You absolutely don’t need an unlimited mining pick to play or enjoy this game. They put something expensive in the game that you don’t need…that’s a good thing.

It would be lousy if they put stuff expensive in the game that you did need.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

I’m not sure why you feel that’s an issue.

I don’t see how you not getting a silly achievement point from living world is an issue too.

But I respect your opinion. So I hope you respect mine too.

I played a few mmorpg where I know “pretty much everyone on the server”. I like that sense of community. I don’t felt the same way in GW2. I almost don’t even know anyone in my guild.

Whatever GW2 design philosophy is the developer’s decision. But if I’m not mistaken, GW1 actually have “guild war” in it’s design(not that I played it). I hope GW2 can at least bring that back.

The focus of guilds instead of servers has been an MMO shift for a long long time. That’s all it is. My guild is social. We socialize less randomly with the server.

In the old days, when a game had less players and there was less choice, it was far easier to get to know people on your server. But the field is more competitive now. More games. More people jumping from game to game (something you really couldn’t do back then) and also, it’s not must more MMOs. There are more games in general coming out all the time, with faster access due to the internet.

The people on your server change to fast to make it a community…it has nothing at all to do with having to rely on people that’s all I’m saying.

laokoko.7403:

Base on some of you guys comment, I might as well go to an internet chat room unrelated to GW2 while I’m playing.

And what would be wrong with that?

If the game forces you to play together, then you’re not social…you’re forced to play together. Social isn’t something forced. It’s something that should come quite naturally to some people. People always form social groups.

The thing is, the game itself becomes a focus for the group, there’s still stuff to do together. I mean watching movies isn’t a social activity, but people still tend to watch movies with other people and movie clubs exist. You and your friends go to the movies, even though you could go completely separately. The movie doesn’t making going to the movie a social experience. You don’t need your friends there to watch a movie better.

The game gives focus for people to do something they enjoy. It allows two people to do stuff they enjoy as well. What it doesn’t do is pigeon hole you. It doesn’t make one person who doesn’t want to heal heal. Instead five people playing the character they want can do a dungeon and have fun together, without worrying who plays what.

It just as social without the limitations My guild runs dungeons together all the time. We don’t worry about who has what profession or what build and maybe it takes us longer to beat content, but we’re having a great time while we’re doing it.

And many of us are hanging out on mumble, laughing and joking around,. even if we’re not playing. But we enjoy playing Guild Wars 2 together as well.

I’m not sure why you feel that’s an issue.

Well, if it’s not a good game, and no one likes it, maybe it should just be removed from the game.

It’s far easier to make quests in single player games, because you can tailor the world to the quester. It’s much harder to make quests in a virtual world, because you have to have a world where everything is happening to everyone.

In Skyrim, there are rescue quests. You go and find this person, and rescue her. The problem is, if you’re doing that and you get that quest, and someone else is there are frees her before you actually get to her, you’ve traveled there for nothing.

hellsmachine.4085:

Vayne.8563:

hellsmachine.4085:

Vayne.8563:

Hearts were never meant to be quests. They were meant to slow people down so they could find the quests, which are dynamic events. Do you realize most hearts can be filled without doing ANYTHING they ask for. That is you do an event in the area, and the heart itself gets filled. That’s because the heart isn’t the meat of the game.

Dynamic events are.

I think you might be missing the point. Why are they still there? I don’t want to be running errands and working for NPCs I just want to play and have fun…

I didn’t miss your point, you missed mine.

When the game first was in beta, they didn’t have hearts. They didn’t exist. They were added to fill a need. People were running through areas, and not finding events. They weren’t even participating in events.

One dev tells a story about watching a person run past a burning house and he asked, why didn’t you go in there and the person said, because I didn’t have a quest to go inside.

But since you can ignore hearts, most of them, and fill them by doing the events in the area, it’s not a problem if you want adventure.

Some people need them and that’s why they’re there.

Fair point, but why can’t quests be more like they are in say Skyrim? Why do they have to be boring chores?

Quests aren’t boring chores. Hearts are. But hearts aren’t the quests. DE’s are the quests. Some DEs ARE boring. Some aren’t. Because the world doesn’t only need people to kill stuff. But you know, fighting bandits trying to poison a town’s water supply isn’t boring stuff to me. Trying to protect the guys repairing the pipes, not boring. Bandits or Centaurs attacking aren’t boring.

So I’m not quite sure what you’re talking about.

hellsmachine.4085:

Vayne.8563:

Hearts were never meant to be quests. They were meant to slow people down so they could find the quests, which are dynamic events. Do you realize most hearts can be filled without doing ANYTHING they ask for. That is you do an event in the area, and the heart itself gets filled. That’s because the heart isn’t the meat of the game.

Dynamic events are.

I think you might be missing the point. Why are they still there? I don’t want to be running errands and working for NPCs I just want to play and have fun…

I didn’t miss your point, you missed mine.

When the game first was in beta, they didn’t have hearts. They didn’t exist. They were added to fill a need. People were running through areas, and not finding events. They weren’t even participating in events.

One dev tells a story about watching a person run past a burning house and he asked, why didn’t you go in there and the person said, because I didn’t have a quest to go inside.

But since you can ignore hearts, most of them, and fill them by doing the events in the area, it’s not a problem if you want adventure.

Some people need them and that’s why they’re there.

My guild is 160 strong. We have a blast together.

But the truth is, game mechanics don’t make you social. Game mechanics might force you to play together. That’s why so many guilds in places like WoW implode. People aren’t there for people, they’re there to win.

And as long as that’s the case…you can’t call it social.

Everyone was expecting a boss fight with Zhaitan and it wasn’t one. The fight with Zhaitan starts when you’re level 70. You kill his food supply, you partially blind him, you steal his ability to make more undead…and then in the end he’s a weakened being killed with technology designed to be anti dragon magic (which only people who played the Asuran story would know).

It’s only bad if you went in thinking it was going to be a boss fight.

Hearts were never meant to be quests. They were meant to slow people down so they could find the quests, which are dynamic events. Do you realize most hearts can be filled without doing ANYTHING they ask for. That is you do an event in the area, and the heart itself gets filled. That’s because the heart isn’t the meat of the game.

Dynamic events are.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Jongi.7612:

Having end game content wouldnt keep me playing this game with its poor coding and being kicked all the time because i take 1 too many waypoints or I just stand in Lions Arch. If I wanted large scale world events I would just play Rift. You can join raid groups out in the world without saying “lfg”, theres a trinity so theres some control over the encounter and they can add in a lot more mechanics, the events are usually zone wide where you have to sometimes man turrets in different parts to bring a dragon minion down and they announce what and where events are according to your level.

Truthfully there shouldnt be any overflow servers and GW2 has gotten a lot of flack about it since the game launched. Their servers arent that great, their coding sucks, the living story and major events like Teq are getting quite a bit of bad reviews and people arent able to play with their guild or friends and its called Guild Wars for crying out loud. I guess I’ll just have to wait for an expansion to come out to fix everything because its not going to be fixed in game any time soon.

See, I felt that way about Rift. There was nothing there that would keep me playing that game. I thought it was godawful. I leveled to characters to max level and the thought of even playing one of them bores me to tears.

Guess that’s why many games are made. Different people have different preferences.

Honestly, at least as far as open world "raids’ are concerned, the two aren’t that different. I remember many invasions in Rift being about as poorly attended as Teq is on FC. What was less apparent on Rift was that the invasion was going to fail — and when it’s just three players and Teq, imminent failure is readily discernible. I don’t remember guesting in Rift, nor an overflow mechanic — though those mechanics have their downsides as well as their upsides.

No Rift didn’t have a guesting or overflow server. What it had instead was a once a week free transfer to any server, with the busiest servers experiencing login in waits at peak times. That is, you’d try to log in and you’d sit in a queue and wait to get in. On weekends those queues could get quite long.

I transferred to Corthana off a busier server, because I was tired of waiting an hour or more in a queue just to start playing. The problem was the population on Corthana was very low and we never got any events done.

Rift, back when I played it, had two kinds of events, Rifts which were all roughly the same, and zone wide events. Events in Rift didn’t chain, didn’t really tell stories. Didn’t really affect the world.

In fact, if an invasion in Rift was successful, the creatures invading despawned in an hour whether players did anything or not. Truth is, the dynamic events in Rift, not including zone wide events, were not all that interesting to me. The zone wide events, which reminded me a bit of Scarlet events, I did like. However, no one ever did them on my server, so there was no point in doing them.

And they happened so often, that they often interfered with other things I wanted to do.

The Teq fight is one event out of 1500. One meta zone event out of 30 or so.

It doesn’t matter if people are or aren’t doing Teq (and people are, because TTS does exist), because there are 28 other metas that get done.

Even the Karka Queen, which everyone complained wasn’t being done at all, gets done on my server pretty frequently.

Truthbearer.9708:

Vayne.8563:

You don’t need numbers to watch videos and know people. You may not have noticed a decrease in dungeon performance, but I definitely have.

If you haven’t noticed one, I suspect you’d be in a minority because a lot of people are talking about it. No, I don’t have numbers. It’s still a lot of people.

There’s so many fallacies in there, I don’t even know where to start.
But whatever you say, buddy.

At least the game is lag-free now, thanks to this genius fix. That’s what the whispers in the wind said to me.

You seriously haven’t experienced a drop in the quality of dungeons? You haven’t experienced disconnects in dungeons? You haven’t experienced lag in dungeons? I really find that hard to believe.

Truthbearer.9708:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t have numbers. I have a statement from the devs. THEY have numbers. Did you see me quote a number?

I know a lot of people DO use them including some people I run with. If you watch dungeon videos, you’ll often see them used.

Speed runners have the propensity to run LOTS of dungeons, sometimes all day over and over. Which means if only speed runners do it, and there are a bunch of speed runners, they’re screwing it up for everyone else. That I don’t deny.

But people use them because I see them in dungeon videos quite often.

No, you didn’t quote a number. You did however say:

It’s not a few people with Embers. People use embers in dungeons all the time as part of a strategy. People use embers in many of the big fights and take out another as soon as the first one dies.

So obviously you must have some numbers to make a statement like this, right? And good job ignoring the rest of the post.

If performance would really be such a high priority issue, then for example veteran risen acolytes wouldn’t have been buffed to summon EVEN MORE MOBS last year among other things that strain the servers.

And what about boosting performance in WvW, specifically in EB. Maybe players should get a +60 seconds global cooldown on skills.

You don’t need numbers to watch videos and know people. You may not have noticed a decrease in dungeon performance, but I definitely have.

If you haven’t noticed one, I suspect you’d be in a minority because a lot of people are talking about it. No, I don’t have numbers. It’s still a lot of people.

Truthbearer.9708:

I haven’t been with a single person that used item-pets in a dungeon since release. Maybe that’s because I don’t do any timed speedruns with the “pro’s”. I doubt the majority of the population does, though. Maybe Vayne can show us the numbers he obviously has.

Even so, are we conveniently forgetting about every other class summon? Mesmer illusions, ranger spirits + pet, necromancer minions (constant uptime!), guardian spirit weapons, elementalist summons, etc etc. Not to mention skills like warband support and thieves guild. How come all these skills lack a 30 minute cooldown? And how come Cursed Shore hasn’t crashed yet with all those minion master necromancers running around?

I don’t have numbers. I have a statement from the devs. THEY have numbers. Did you see me quote a number?

I know a lot of people DO use them including some people I run with. If you watch dungeon videos, you’ll often see them used.

Speed runners have the propensity to run LOTS of dungeons, sometimes all day over and over. Which means if only speed runners do it, and there are a bunch of speed runners, they’re screwing it up for everyone else. That I don’t deny.

But people use them because I see them in dungeon videos quite often.

Jongi.7612:

Having end game content wouldnt keep me playing this game with its poor coding and being kicked all the time because i take 1 too many waypoints or I just stand in Lions Arch. If I wanted large scale world events I would just play Rift. You can join raid groups out in the world without saying “lfg”, theres a trinity so theres some control over the encounter and they can add in a lot more mechanics, the events are usually zone wide where you have to sometimes man turrets in different parts to bring a dragon minion down and they announce what and where events are according to your level.

Truthfully there shouldnt be any overflow servers and GW2 has gotten a lot of flack about it since the game launched. Their servers arent that great, their coding sucks, the living story and major events like Teq are getting quite a bit of bad reviews and people arent able to play with their guild or friends and its called Guild Wars for crying out loud. I guess I’ll just have to wait for an expansion to come out to fix everything because its not going to be fixed in game any time soon.

See, I felt that way about Rift. There was nothing there that would keep me playing that game. I thought it was godawful. I leveled to characters to max level and the thought of even playing one of them bores me to tears.

Guess that’s why many games are made. Different people have different preferences.

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not a few people with Embers. People use embers in dungeons all the time as part of a strategy. People use embers in many of the big fights and take out another as soon as the first one dies. It’s a drain on resources.

snip

snip

snip

That’s a direct statement.

snip

I don’t know how normal games (unquote) are programmed, but it seems to me completely illogical in any game for each instance to have it’s own personal server. That’s not the way the architecture works anywhere from my understanding and certainly not in the new games.

The way new games are programmed is less rigid. Processor power from one place is used when it’s needed and released when it’s not, more the way a cloud functions.

Are you assuming that a single dungeon uses server power independently of all the other dungeons occurring at the same time, because that makes no sense to me from any point of view.

The server works with a bank of processors, which run a specific series of dungeons. That is to say, one processor still does all the calculations for multiple instances. So obviously, all the instances are being calculated together. Thus summon something in separate instances would have to affect the server.

I can’t see any other way for this to be.

Vayne, yeah, an instance doesn’t have a personal server. It’s just an instance with it’s own memory, etc. You can’t see any other way for this to be because you don’t understand how software works. Short of you becoming a developer, I don’t know how we could proceed here.

I didn’t realize you were a developer.

25+ years in IT.

But being in IT doesn’t make you a developer. I spent 19 years on the hardware end, not the software end. And I know that in the end, software depends on hardware. So the stuff you program has to be calculated somewhere.

When you say a dungeon a specific instance with it’s own memory, it still has to be sharing resources with other instances. There’s no way it can possibly have all its own resources. That would be completely prohibitive to program.

So if all the dungeons are drawing on one main area of memory using one set of processors to give them processor power, the more you draw on that resource from ALL the instances it controls, the more likely you are to lag that entire system.

Placing something in its own instance doesn’t change the way that instance reacts to hardware, unless that instance is completely isolated to its own hardware. Otherwise the system, as a whole, will experience a slowdown.

This is my understanding of the matter and nothing you’ve said so far convinces me otherwise.

Bottom line here bud, any limitations of the nature we are discussing are self-imposed through sub-optimal architecture and design. How exactly would I go about convincing you? This is simply something you understand or you don’t understand. Especially things like the way they manage condition damage. How do I know this? Because other games do this as a matter of course.

And, Vayne, you don’t even know how to talk about this. If you are going to talk software and hardware you at least need to be able to talk that trash even if you can’t do it. I do admire your pluck though.

Nothing to do about pluck. I have an idea of how stuff works. I don’t work in the industry and haven’t for many many years. Terms change. I don’t remember the name of every single concept I’ve heard…but I do have the idea.

Now you talk about games. I played Rift. I know Rift had a big event that lagged out exactly the way Guild Wars 2’s Karka event was lagged out. Worse even. So bad they had to come out and apologize publicly for the event and give everyone compensation. It was terrible. The Karka event at least worked for some people. So much for what other games can and can’t do.

A lot of the older games were designed with less server calls. That’s what global cooldowns are for and also why you can’t move while casting. Older games don’t have quite the overhead Guild Wars 2 does. You can practically run WoW on a toaster. There’s a reason for that.

I don’t see a hundred and fifty people in most MMOs in a single event, do you? So how would you start comparing?

Vayne, without doubt you have an idea about how stuff works but you don’t understand how stuff works. Commentary in an area of in-expertise is of little value.

I guess I’m having trouble accepting that you actually know more about software development than Anet devs.

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not a few people with Embers. People use embers in dungeons all the time as part of a strategy. People use embers in many of the big fights and take out another as soon as the first one dies. It’s a drain on resources.

snip

snip

Josh Foreman said it in another thread. His example was the dungeon example. He said, directly that 150 people using 1 ember in a dungeon each is no different than 150 people using an ember on a single map.

That’s a direct statement.

snip

I don’t know how normal games (unquote) are programmed, but it seems to me completely illogical in any game for each instance to have it’s own personal server. That’s not the way the architecture works anywhere from my understanding and certainly not in the new games.

The way new games are programmed is less rigid. Processor power from one place is used when it’s needed and released when it’s not, more the way a cloud functions.

Are you assuming that a single dungeon uses server power independently of all the other dungeons occurring at the same time, because that makes no sense to me from any point of view.

The server works with a bank of processors, which run a specific series of dungeons. That is to say, one processor still does all the calculations for multiple instances. So obviously, all the instances are being calculated together. Thus summon something in separate instances would have to affect the server.

I can’t see any other way for this to be.

Vayne, yeah, an instance doesn’t have a personal server. It’s just an instance with it’s own memory, etc. You can’t see any other way for this to be because you don’t understand how software works. Short of you becoming a developer, I don’t know how we could proceed here.

I didn’t realize you were a developer.

25+ years in IT.

But being in IT doesn’t make you a developer. I spent 19 years on the hardware end, not the software end. And I know that in the end, software depends on hardware. So the stuff you program has to be calculated somewhere.

When you say a dungeon a specific instance with it’s own memory, it still has to be sharing resources with other instances. There’s no way it can possibly have all its own resources. That would be completely prohibitive to program.

So if all the dungeons are drawing on one main area of memory using one set of processors to give them processor power, the more you draw on that resource from ALL the instances it controls, the more likely you are to lag that entire system.

Placing something in its own instance doesn’t change the way that instance reacts to hardware, unless that instance is completely isolated to its own hardware. Otherwise the system, as a whole, will experience a slowdown.

This is my understanding of the matter and nothing you’ve said so far convinces me otherwise.

Bottom line here bud, any limitations of the nature we are discussing are self-imposed through sub-optimal architecture and design. How exactly would I go about convincing you? This is simply something you understand or you don’t understand. Especially things like the way they manage condition damage. How do I know this? Because other games do this as a matter of course.

And, Vayne, you don’t even know how to talk about this. If you are going to talk software and hardware you at least need to be able to talk that trash even if you can’t do it. I do admire your pluck though.

Nothing to do about pluck. I have an idea of how stuff works. I don’t work in the industry and haven’t for many many years. Terms change. I don’t remember the name of every single concept I’ve heard…but I do have the idea.

Now you talk about games. I played Rift. I know Rift had a big event that lagged out exactly the way Guild Wars 2’s Karka event was lagged out. Worse even. So bad they had to come out and apologize publicly for the event and give everyone compensation. It was terrible. The Karka event at least worked for some people. So much for what other games can and can’t do.

A lot of the older games were designed with less server calls. That’s what global cooldowns are for and also why you can’t move while casting. Older games don’t have quite the overhead Guild Wars 2 does. You can practically run WoW on a toaster. There’s a reason for that.

I don’t see a hundred and fifty people in most MMOs in a single event, do you? So how would you start comparing?

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not a few people with Embers. People use embers in dungeons all the time as part of a strategy. People use embers in many of the big fights and take out another as soon as the first one dies. It’s a drain on resources.

If a zone has a max cap of 150 and there are 150 people in it, and then 30 people summon embers, that’s another 30 things in the zone beyond the cap.

Do you know for a fact it doesn’t cause a strain on resources?

I would ordinarily laugh at a statement like this as it should be absurd. However, think it through. Anet is not even able to manage condition damage by player, something any major title will do as a matter of course. It should be embarrassing for them to admit it, but I suppose this could be true. Given the lagfest that is any large encounter, the game may actually be this fragile.

Josh Foreman said it in another thread. His example was the dungeon example. He said, directly that 150 people using 1 ember in a dungeon each is no different than 150 people using an ember on a single map.

That’s a direct statement.

How many dungeons have you been in with 150 people? Dungeons are instanced; there should be no performance issue if every member of a party had an ember up. However, this isn’t a normal game obviously, so I’m willing to entertain the notion that embers actually do represent a performance problem. It would be absurd if they do, but probably is the case in GW2. As I mentioned they played the technical limitations card around managing condition damage by player which every major title can do, so I actually am willing to believe them on this.

I don’t know how normal games (unquote) are programmed, but it seems to me completely illogical in any game for each instance to have it’s own personal server. That’s not the way the architecture works anywhere from my understanding and certainly not in the new games.

The way new games are programmed is less rigid. Processor power from one place is used when it’s needed and released when it’s not, more the way a cloud functions.

Are you assuming that a single dungeon uses server power independently of all the other dungeons occurring at the same time, because that makes no sense to me from any point of view.

The server works with a bank of processors, which run a specific series of dungeons. That is to say, one processor still does all the calculations for multiple instances. So obviously, all the instances are being calculated together. Thus summon something in separate instances would have to affect the server.

I can’t see any other way for this to be.

Vayne, yeah, an instance doesn’t have a personal server. It’s just an instance with it’s own memory, etc. You can’t see any other way for this to be because you don’t understand how software works. Short of you becoming a developer, I don’t know how we could proceed here.

I didn’t realize you were a developer.

25+ years in IT.

But being in IT doesn’t make you a developer. I spent 19 years on the hardware end, not the software end. And I know that in the end, software depends on hardware. So the stuff you program has to be calculated somewhere.

When you say a dungeon a specific instance with it’s own memory, it still has to be sharing resources with other instances. There’s no way it can possibly have all its own resources. That would be completely prohibitive to program.

So if all the dungeons are drawing on one main area of memory using one set of processors to give them processor power, the more you draw on that resource from ALL the instances it controls, the more likely you are to lag that entire system.

Placing something in its own instance doesn’t change the way that instance reacts to hardware, unless that instance is completely isolated to its own hardware. Otherwise the system, as a whole, will experience a slowdown.

This is my understanding of the matter and nothing you’ve said so far convinces me otherwise.

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not a few people with Embers. People use embers in dungeons all the time as part of a strategy. People use embers in many of the big fights and take out another as soon as the first one dies. It’s a drain on resources.

If a zone has a max cap of 150 and there are 150 people in it, and then 30 people summon embers, that’s another 30 things in the zone beyond the cap.

Do you know for a fact it doesn’t cause a strain on resources?

I would ordinarily laugh at a statement like this as it should be absurd. However, think it through. Anet is not even able to manage condition damage by player, something any major title will do as a matter of course. It should be embarrassing for them to admit it, but I suppose this could be true. Given the lagfest that is any large encounter, the game may actually be this fragile.

Josh Foreman said it in another thread. His example was the dungeon example. He said, directly that 150 people using 1 ember in a dungeon each is no different than 150 people using an ember on a single map.

That’s a direct statement.

How many dungeons have you been in with 150 people? Dungeons are instanced; there should be no performance issue if every member of a party had an ember up. However, this isn’t a normal game obviously, so I’m willing to entertain the notion that embers actually do represent a performance problem. It would be absurd if they do, but probably is the case in GW2. As I mentioned they played the technical limitations card around managing condition damage by player which every major title can do, so I actually am willing to believe them on this.

I don’t know how normal games (unquote) are programmed, but it seems to me completely illogical in any game for each instance to have it’s own personal server. That’s not the way the architecture works anywhere from my understanding and certainly not in the new games.

The way new games are programmed is less rigid. Processor power from one place is used when it’s needed and released when it’s not, more the way a cloud functions.

Are you assuming that a single dungeon uses server power independently of all the other dungeons occurring at the same time, because that makes no sense to me from any point of view.

The server works with a bank of processors, which run a specific series of dungeons. That is to say, one processor still does all the calculations for multiple instances. So obviously, all the instances are being calculated together. Thus summon something in separate instances would have to affect the server.

I can’t see any other way for this to be.

Vayne, yeah, an instance doesn’t have a personal server. It’s just an instance with it’s own memory, etc. You can’t see any other way for this to be because you don’t understand how software works. Short of you becoming a developer, I don’t know how we could proceed here.

I didn’t realize you were a developer.

OmniPotentes.4817:

Vayne.8563:

OmniPotentes.4817:

Well it’s quite obvious the nerve was introduced to avoid easy completion of the new wurm event by continuous use of adds.

I’m not sure how you reached this conclusion. Unless you’re willing to come right out and say Anet is lying (probably not a great idea because there’s no proof of this), having 150 people on a server, with 150 continuous fire elementals probably would slow things down to a crawl. Lots of people complain about lag and frame rate drop during big events.

How do you know that Anet didn’t nerf this to prevent a bad lag situation….like they said?

We’ll it was introduced together with the wurm event. There is also a thread encouraging the use off adds or else you don’t stand a chance to beat the event. I’m not calling Anet anything. I’m sure that to many adds can increase server lagg, but this has always been the case since launch, so introducing this change now and blaming server lagg for it is just a sales pitch. The true reason is the wurm event.

Maybe because they’re learning from other events what’s been going on. I’ve noticed, for several weeks now, an increase in complaints about lag. So Anet fixed it in the next patch. The worse the lag gets, the more Anet has to try to do stuff about it. They’ve also introduced two big events both of which might cause problems if everyone used the wurm. The world only had the Teq event, now it has three of that difficulty (or at least in the same ball park), So triple the number of events could have meant more lag across the board.

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not a few people with Embers. People use embers in dungeons all the time as part of a strategy. People use embers in many of the big fights and take out another as soon as the first one dies. It’s a drain on resources.

If a zone has a max cap of 150 and there are 150 people in it, and then 30 people summon embers, that’s another 30 things in the zone beyond the cap.

Do you know for a fact it doesn’t cause a strain on resources?

I would ordinarily laugh at a statement like this as it should be absurd. However, think it through. Anet is not even able to manage condition damage by player, something any major title will do as a matter of course. It should be embarrassing for them to admit it, but I suppose this could be true. Given the lagfest that is any large encounter, the game may actually be this fragile.

Josh Foreman said it in another thread. His example was the dungeon example. He said, directly that 150 people using 1 ember in a dungeon each is no different than 150 people using an ember on a single map.

That’s a direct statement.

How many dungeons have you been in with 150 people? Dungeons are instanced; there should be no performance issue if every member of a party had an ember up. However, this isn’t a normal game obviously, so I’m willing to entertain the notion that embers actually do represent a performance problem. It would be absurd if they do, but probably is the case in GW2. As I mentioned they played the technical limitations card around managing condition damage by player which every major title can do, so I actually am willing to believe them on this.

I don’t know how normal games (unquote) are programmed, but it seems to me completely illogical in any game for each instance to have it’s own personal server. That’s not the way the architecture works anywhere from my understanding and certainly not in the new games.

The way new games are programmed is less rigid. Processor power from one place is used when it’s needed and released when it’s not, more the way a cloud functions.

Are you assuming that a single dungeon uses server power independently of all the other dungeons occurring at the same time, because that makes no sense to me from any point of view.

The server works with a bank of processors, which run a specific series of dungeons. That is to say, one processor still does all the calculations for multiple instances. So obviously, all the instances are being calculated together. Thus summon something in separate instances would have to affect the server.

I can’t see any other way for this to be.

Raine.1394:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not a few people with Embers. People use embers in dungeons all the time as part of a strategy. People use embers in many of the big fights and take out another as soon as the first one dies. It’s a drain on resources.

If a zone has a max cap of 150 and there are 150 people in it, and then 30 people summon embers, that’s another 30 things in the zone beyond the cap.

Do you know for a fact it doesn’t cause a strain on resources?

I would ordinarily laugh at a statement like this as it should be absurd. However, think it through. Anet is not even able to manage condition damage by player, something any major title will do as a matter of course. It should be embarrassing for them to admit it, but I suppose this could be true. Given the lagfest that is any large encounter, the game may actually be this fragile.

Josh Foreman said it in another thread. His example was the dungeon example. He said, directly that 150 people using 1 ember in a dungeon each is no different than 150 people using an ember on a single map.

That’s a direct statement.

OmniPotentes.4817:

Well it’s quite obvious the nerve was introduced to avoid easy completion of the new wurm event by continuous use of adds.

I’m not sure how you reached this conclusion. Unless you’re willing to come right out and say Anet is lying (probably not a great idea because there’s no proof of this), having 150 people on a server, with 150 continuous fire elementals probably would slow things down to a crawl. Lots of people complain about lag and frame rate drop during big events.

How do you know that Anet didn’t nerf this to prevent a bad lag situation….like they said?

Pretty fair assessment I thought.

The only comment I have is about the group communications and stuff. I have a different experience, mostly because I don’t enjoy pugging. I’m usually on mumble for dungeons with my guild and we usually fly through them…though sometimes we just goof around and take our time. We’re more on mumble for the laughs and we coordinate when we have to.

But yeah, if you’re pugging it’s very hit and miss.

Chaotic Storm.2815:

Vayne.8563:

Chaotic Storm.2815:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not a few people with Embers. People use embers in dungeons all the time as part of a strategy. People use embers in many of the big fights and take out another as soon as the first one dies. It’s a drain on resources.

If a zone has a max cap of 150 and there are 150 people in it, and then 30 people summon embers, that’s another 30 things in the zone beyond the cap.

Do you know for a fact it doesn’t cause a strain on resources?

thats like saying its a drain of resources when a player is over using a flashy skill. whats next? putting a limit on how many attacks can be active in a map at once.

It’s nothing like that. Players use skills but still need to be animated separately. Imps use skills too, and still have to be animated. It’s another thing for the server to track and keep track of.

A skill animation has no health, has no armor, it’s just a picture of what you’re doing. An summoned elemental (or anything else for that matter), not so much.

Ok I was see your point when I look at it like that but it still feels stupid that it would be around the same level of resource as an enemy/ally NPC when has proven they have no problem flooding a zone with hoards of enemies for events so but a few embers and orc pets following us is suddenly a major issue that had to be nerfed into the ground this late into the games creation seems fishy

It’s not a few. Look at the dungeon situation. This is how devs explained it.

Someone asked since dungeons only have 5 people, why can’t we have pets in dungeons with no cool down. After all, if everyone had an ember out it’s only 10 people per map. But map doesn’t necessarily equal server.

The dungeons have servers. The servers have capacities. 150 people each using 1 ember in different dungeons will stress the server as much as someone using 150 in 1 dungeon.

You’re seeing a server and you’re thinking it’s only 20 more, but you’re assuming for every server and overflow there’s like a separate computer. Each overflow and each map is a virtual space, not a physical space.

The system is handing multiple overflows. The processor isn’t just calculating your overflow separately. It can’t. They can’t have an infinite number of machines lying around to create an infinite number of overflows.

To you it’s your map and there’s only 20 more things on your map. But the other maps on that server are all likely on the same systems. So you’re not just counting what’s on your specific map, see?

johnnymiller.5968:

Adhal.3187:

Hoping to get a answer from A net on this one. Why exactly is every single NA server listed as very high or full? I have a hard time believing they are very high since there is a HUGE difference in the population of say Darkhaven and Tarnished Coast.

Is this just a cash grab move by you since it cost 1800 gems to transfer to a very high server. TBH is quite misleading and very annoying. I started this game a few months ago and when I was looking for a server my only thought was not getting stuck on a server that is low population and has difficulties completing content, and now I’m stuck on just that and only option is to spend money to transfer off. Yes I can guest, and in fact that has been the only way I have been able to complete the new LS, but its still irritating the server populations are so misleading.

Think the issue is a lack of people in areas like Orr. Especially irritating if you are trying to get map completion because certain parts of the maps are contested more often than not. Trying to venture into those areas is more or less suicide.

Have you thought about making some friends or joining a guild. Depending on random people to show up is a bit risky for my taste.

Chaotic Storm.2815:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not a few people with Embers. People use embers in dungeons all the time as part of a strategy. People use embers in many of the big fights and take out another as soon as the first one dies. It’s a drain on resources.

If a zone has a max cap of 150 and there are 150 people in it, and then 30 people summon embers, that’s another 30 things in the zone beyond the cap.

Do you know for a fact it doesn’t cause a strain on resources?

thats like saying its a drain of resources when a player is over using a flashy skill. whats next? putting a limit on how many attacks can be active in a map at once.

It’s nothing like that. Players use skills but still need to be animated separately. Imps use skills too, and still have to be animated. It’s another thing for the server to track and keep track of.

A skill animation has no health, has no armor, it’s just a picture of what you’re doing. An summoned elemental (or anything else for that matter), not so much.

Bloodstealer.5978:

@Latinkuro.9420 -

Shared loot is nothing new.. shared banks, guild banks etc all provide shared loot access.. GW2 is nothing revolutionary there I’m afraid its just collated in different mechanics to how others do it, that’s just to make it look different and avoid the “its a copy”… I do like the ability to deposit collectables straight to shared bank though.. +1 ANET

GW2 has only just introduced an LFG system x-server that’s in no way comparable to other systems that have been around as long as the arc in my opinion.

Kill stealing – I will give you that if you mean stealing as in thief steels/ sigil procs. otherwise not sure what it is your getting at.

Dodge – sorry but DDO has had dodge and block mechanics in it right from original beta must be 9 yrs now, I believe Tera has it and so do others I would hazard a guess…. nothing new at all in GW2

Snip

Grind – Every MMO has a grind attached and GW2 is no different – Leveling is a grind to some, gathering resources, loot etc is a grind to others.. it all comes down to playstyle and preference. Tell me gathering all those silk scraps isn’t a grind for your ascended armours or salvaging all those blues, greens or ectos isn’t a grind for players to get some waste of time Magic Find %… getting your pre-cursors or crafting legendary.

snip

As for your smooth camera stuff.. GW2 (by the devs own admission) has a fail camera system.. jump puzzles area clear indicator of that.. so much camera collision, poor zoom capability and poor model scaling . a la Norn Guardians in jump puzzles.

UI.. simple yes but imo far to simple. When I want to take something from my inventory like a spikey fruit to throw in combat or down some food etc etc, all I got to do is stop , open inventory find it and double click it – but then I realise I cant cos.. I is dead!.. quickslots are there to be utilised but of course GW2 was planned for console junkies rather than PC’ers I guess.

GW2 is visually good I will give them that, but all that comes at a price and they have been in reactive mode since beta to try and reduce the demands both server side and our side to bring the game into playable performance.. culling, particle reduction etc and the ability to have all those nice things on screen with hundreds of players at the same time, like other games, it has found it to be a problem for many. Personally I don’t suffer too much in GW2 compared to say SWTOR but many others do on a regular basis.

Don’t get me wrong I think GW2 has some impressive points, had some good idea and still has potential, but it isn’t amy better than other games out there already, at least not in my opinion – we all have our opinions on what’s right wrong, liked not liked ya see.

Shakespeare’s plays…theyr’e nothing but words. That’s all they are. There isn’t a new word in any of it.

I think you missed the point here. It’s not one feature or one thing that makes this game better than other MMOs for some of us…it’s the specific combination of features.

Pretend you’re a friendly social casual for a second. In most games, someone can tag your guy before you do and kill steal your boss, so you have to wait five minutes for a respawn. I’m sure other games have done this in the past. And rewarding me loot and experience for participating in the fight even if I come in late….that’s just..well…rewarding. But how many games that do that also don’t allow node stealing. I remember being in Rift and knocking back people I’m fighting, so I could mine during a fight, before some idiot took my node.

And how many of those games that had no kill stealing and no node stealing also allowed everyone to rez everyone else without using a skill slot? I don’t remember many games that do that.

How many allow you to have combo fields with people not in your party or buff people not in your party? Not too many. How many don’t make you go to a quest giver to get a quest or a reward? Not too many.

And none of the games I’ve played had all or even most of these features.

What Anet had was a vision of cooperative PvE and they aimed every feature of the game, from no killing stealing to down leveling to separating PvE and PvP, all with this singular vision in mind of creating something that no other game has come close to creating.

You’re so busy looking at trees, you forgot to notice the forest.

Khai.6435:

Until I stop getting booted from my home server to overflow where you stand an exponentially lower chance of success due to 1. lowered coordination or 2. simply an inability to achieve numbers. I would prefer some of the events moved to instances or a server priority code put in place.

If I’m on my home server; I should have priority for events on that server and non-grouped people guesting over should be punted to overflow.

Yep, this MUST be fixed.

Latinkuro.9420:

Vayne.8563:

No one “deserves” to be catered too. Businesses are businesses

hmmm, you’re starting to contradict yourself mate

Nah the word deserves is the problem there. Businesses don’t give you stuff because you “deserve it”. They give you stuff because it makes them money. It’s not a “right”.

Latinkuro.9420:

I do agree with that, but you’re missing the point it is bad business for them to ignore that 5-10%
they may be a minority but they help drive the game forward on social media more than any other casual player ever would, make them mad and they get very vocal which is bad for their business, so you see keeping them happy is also good for business.

But that’s my point. They’re NOT ignoring 5-10% (or whatever the percentage is). They ARE making harder content. They’re not putting it instances.

If they have to make something to cater to that 5-10% that ecludes 90-95%, one would think that’s bad business.

Because there is only so much development time. It’s called a compromise.

Latinkuro.9420:

Vayne.8563:

The most skilled content of difficult games is done by a vast minority of players. Why put time and effort into something for 5 or 10 %?

- because even though they are indeed the minority, they also deserve to be catered to from time to time.
- they may be the minority, but they also help identify what is overpowered and what is underpowered.
- they are the one the ones the general player base looks to for builds, guides etc.
so you see that 5-10% of the population may be a minority but they are needed.
- 2 updates out of 20+ in a year for targeting them seems to me like a very good compromise.

No one “deserves” to be catered too. Businesses are businesses…in business to make money. If you have a dish that’s not selling particularly well in a restaurant and it costs more to make because you’re running special equiptment, you’d stop making it…even if five guys didn’t come in.

The bottom line is taking development time away from everyone else to cater to the 5% strikes me as bad business..but it’s worse.

Because that 5% is going to beat that content and want MORE content. And they’ll often beat it faster than everyone else.

So if Anet can make content that caters to that 5% and STILL allows others to participate (TTS has Tequatl on farm), then why shouldn’t they?

The 5% get the harder battle and the coordination but more people that aren’t in the 5% have something to do too.

Some would call that a win win.

This game doesn’t have enough developers and development hours to just cater to one group at a time, unless it’s a very large group. So they try to create content that both the majority and that group can both enjoy.

They’ve met mixed success so far, but they’re learning.

Latinkuro.9420:

I never liked 40 man raids, for that exact reason I don’t like carrying dead weight whose only purpose is to lower my RNG % chances of getting something good at the end.

it’s a lot more difficult to do with active defense, twitch response and all.

I would love to see some encounter’s a la vindictus or Tera.
if they can do it, I’m sure a.net can do it to, it’s just a matter of time before they learn.

I’m not saying those games do it perfectly but some of those vindictus encounters are absolutely amazing, and there are no red circles to tell you where and when it will land more skill play.

The most skilled content of difficult games is done by a vast minority of players. Why put time and effort into something for 5 or 10 %?

Latinkuro.9420:

Vayne.8563:

Latinkuro.9420:

@ Vayne hmmm, the main culprit here is the word “meta” if they change the “meta” to include other builds besides DPS focused builds that’s the day when open world raiding will succeed.

In this game it’s called meta. In other games it’s called FotM. It happens in every game. I agree, 100% there needs to be more build variety. But they have, to some degree, already started addressing that.

So in the Tequatl fight, zerkers are pretty useless. He can’t be hit by crits. In the wurm fight, you need people with condition damage, because conditions do more damage to the husks.

It’s a learning process, and it’s taking time, because each major encounter takes so long to develop. But that doesn’t mean they’re not moving toward it.

That said, even if they do include other builds, those builds will also have meta and efficiency factors, in that light I do not see why you do not agree with the fact efficiency and meta mentality will always be a part of this sort of content.

Think about it, if all of a sudden tanking became viable
would you bring a subpar tank ? or would you bring a meta tank focused on efficiency?

see, the efficiency and meta mentality just doesn’t go away no matter what kind of builds are included into the meta game.

I think you’re looking at traditional raids, but not open world content. Think of a huge mega store. You need to hire 100 people. You’re not going to find 100 awesome hard workers. You’ll get a tiny percentage of self-starting manager types who want to do the right thing. A small percentage of ambitious guys who only want to get ahead no matter what. And most of the people want to do the job and go home. And a few people will want to not do the job but get paid anyway.

When you have an encounter like these big world events, you STILL will need bodies. So you have to have roles for people who really do carry the event forward, but if you want to get enough people to do it, you’re not likely to field 100 guys like that.

Raids were the same way. Do you remember 40 man raids. Five guys knew what was going on, five guys were really good and followed directions and you had to hit the other 30 people over the head repeatedly to get them to stay out of red circles.

This isn’t really much different.

Latinkuro.9420:

@ Vayne hmmm, the main culprit here is the word “meta” if they change the “meta” to include other builds besides DPS focused builds that’s the day when open world raiding will succeed.

In this game it’s called meta. In other games it’s called FotM. It happens in every game. I agree, 100% there needs to be more build variety. But they have, to some degree, already started addressing that.

So in the Tequatl fight, zerkers are pretty useless. He can’t be hit by crits. In the wurm fight, you need people with condition damage, because conditions do more damage to the husks.

It’s a learning process, and it’s taking time, because each major encounter takes so long to develop. But that doesn’t mean they’re not moving toward it.

Latinkuro.9420:

come on Vayne, I expect you of all people to understand percentages as a form of saying the majority, if I had concrete numbers I would submit data sources, seriously !

I think you and I are on the same page with some minor miscommunication issues here and there.

yes many people do not know how to play the game or do not want to get better because all they want is to have “fun”
“Fun” is a very subjective word and means something different to every single individual on earth.

the point I want to bring forward is this:
- If the majority of the game is made for casuals why the outcry about 2 pieces of content implemented to keep the more efficiency/hardcore focused players happy ?
- don’t they deserve to have their needs met some of the time ?
- in a whole year there have been 2 difficulty revamps out of all the biweekly updates that have been released over the past year and half.

- to me it is very simple, you want to participate in Raid level Boss fights you need to know and understand you have to bring your A game aka meta build and efficiency mentality.

I agree with everything but your last point. THat is to say, I think encounters can be designed to cater to both groups of players…but I also think it will take time for that to occur.

In the Teq fight there’s a zerg, but there are people on guns, which require skill and people defending them which requires skill.

The marionette fight is badly designed because it’s allowing anyone to be in a key position.

Latinkuro.9420:

Vayne.8563:

I simply proved that you play games competitively and you believe everyone has to be like you. You’re saying only you and players like you deserve difficult interesting content. You’re saying no one who started this fight improved because of this fight.

I used to respect your posts but this is the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever said mate !
- 98% of the game is made for casual play and I love it.
- 2% of the game has Raid difficulty level content and that is a bad thing ? how ?
- even the Dev’s are aware not everyone will clear this content, it is there for that 2% that is willing to go the extra mile and play the current meta game to the extreme.

- like I said there are numerous Boss and dungeon encounters in the game for which you can bring any kittenamamie build you want and still be able to succeed !
- there is a big difference between participation and contribution !
- a participant does not necessarily contribute, while a contributor is both a participant and a contributor.
- participant can be anyone present no matter how skilled or unskilled they are no matter whether they are hurting the group’s chances with an inefficient build or not.
- contributor, brings his A game and meta mentality, many here say I don’t wanna be pressured into meta mentality, I say well then why do you wanna join a Raid difficulty level content clearly designed and targeted at the 2% of the population that has the meta mentality.
- if it was designed for any build no matter how inefficient it would not qualify as Raid level content, it would be to easy to beat using the so much hated meta builds !
-

I don’t know where you get your numbers from, but I don’t really now how you can say that 98% of the people who play open world content necessarily like it the way it is.

Last time I looked, the open world isn’t much used. Do you have metrics about how many people are playing the open world. Have you not seen players fail at stuff and get frustrated because they’re not good enough to do certain things? I see this all the time. I’m not sure how you can miss it.

There are a percentage of people who really don’t care about getting better, but there are also a percentage of people who don’t know HOW to get better….easy things they can do, like switching to a different ranger pet or weapon without affecting much else. Learning when to dodge.

When you pull numbers out of nowhere to try to make a point it doesn’t strengthen your arguments.

Do you not read posts on these very forums were people are complaining the open world and dungeons are too hard?

MrDmajor.7084:

You don’t teach people how to play a game by throwing them into a cluster kitten where they fail or succeed based a complete strangers actions.

You teach them by negative and positive reinforcement for THEIR actions and choices.

Yep, I agree. I’m against the way Anet has created this event to force people to teach the playerbase to play. I consider it bad design and have said so in other places as well.

There should be other tutorials in the game that don’t affect my enjoyment of the game. I don’t want to have to depend on you learning the content.

sirflamesword.3896:

Vayne.8563:

You missed my point. I didn’t make your point at all. I simply proved that you play games competitively and you believe everyone has to be like you. You’re saying only you and players like you deserve difficult interesting content. You’re saying no one who started this fight improved because of this fight.

Anet put the marionette fight into the game in their own words, to help train the player base, and some people learned. It was Anet’s intention.

Now, interestingly, I don’t think this is the best way to teach someone, and I think that the aspiration, though noble, is largely wasted in this particularly design.

But I do think that over all the playerbase will start to get a bit better from these types of things. Or, those who fail repeatedly and aren’t good will get frustrated and stop coming.

Not everyone but some.

In this case Anet set the bar just a bit too high…but the idea wasn’t a bad one.

That is the dumbest thing ever, MOST people don’t play video games to LEARN they play them to HAVE FUN. Just the thought of an ANET dev saying they want to teach their playerbase something new kittenes me off because it feels like they are talking down to us, which I know I can’t be the only one that doesn’t like that. Got halfway through what I wanted to say and remembered it’s Vayne I’m quoting and my reply is wasted, because he has brownnosed his head so far up …nvm I’m done.

In some ways, you have a point. Most people play games to have fun. That’s true. But you need to consider that what’s fun to one group might be completely different than what’s fun to another group.

So if you’re an RPer and that’s what’s fun and you spend all your time RP and none of your time thinking about game mechanics…that’s well and good…but you haven’t actually learned the game. You’re playing a different game inside the game. Nothing wrong with it, but that’s what’s happening.

There have long been posts on the forums by people asking for more challenging content in the open world. Anet doesn’t want to just throw anything in the open world without people upping their game…because many people don’t play well. You can watch people and see they don’t play well.

You can go to almost any event and watch people just using their one skill and ignoring every other skill. You can see them using a weapon that’s bad for the encounter.

It’s one thing to say I just want to have fun and enjoy myself. It’s another thing to think that Anet needs to make a game just for people who play like you do. Because some people WANT to get better. That’s the fun for some people. I personally want to get better.

Where I think Anet made a mistake is making the assumption that most people do want to get better.

I mean baseball is a game too, but some people who play it want to improve it, even if they play for fun.

Why can’t you play for fun AND want to improve. Why do you think these are mutually exclusive?

Latinkuro.9420:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Please, ArenaNet, do not make large-scale ‘raid-type’ content instanced. I prefer it the way it is. Thank you.

- I to said that before these raid level fights were implemented, now I say make the kitten thing instanced, it’s obvious open world raiding was and is a terrible idea.

Vayne.8563:

I’m against instanced content too. It leads to elitism. It leads to problems.

You must have seen the threads of people who only want zerkers, only want this build only what that build.
This game was designed so people could play different builds. Some types of players, rangers, necros, engies, have trouble getting invited to groups. But in open world content, they can play what they want and still participate.
This is much better for me than being dictated to by the current meta exactly how I should play the game.
There are plenty of games for people to play instanced raids. I sure hope this won’t be another one of them.

- Thank you for making my point ! (bold text)
these bosses are meant for people that know the game in and out and know their class in and out.
- If your goal is simply to participate there are numerous other world bosses out there below raid level difficulty for you to go and participate in.
- If you wanna contribute then by all means bring your A game which in gw2 means bring the most efficient build possible
- if you wanna play whatever build you like no matter how inefficient it is then why do you want to join a raid ? Raid definition, bring your A game or you will not come out victorious !
- Do you honestly think you can go into a raid with a crappy build and still beat it ? if you think yes you obviously do not understand the concept of what raiding is about !
- I’m gonna stop here cause this kitten is so obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells it’s making me mad.

You missed my point. I didn’t make your point at all. I simply proved that you play games competitively and you believe everyone has to be like you. You’re saying only you and players like you deserve difficult interesting content. You’re saying no one who started this fight improved because of this fight.

Anet put the marionette fight into the game in their own words, to help train the player base, and some people learned. It was Anet’s intention.

Now, interestingly, I don’t think this is the best way to teach someone, and I think that the aspiration, though noble, is largely wasted in this particularly design.

But I do think that over all the playerbase will start to get a bit better from these types of things. Or, those who fail repeatedly and aren’t good will get frustrated and stop coming.

Not everyone but some.

In this case Anet set the bar just a bit too high…but the idea wasn’t a bad one.

MrDmajor.7084:

If ANet is not going to allow instanced massive raids, then eliminate this overflow thing and allow people to switch channels so they can team up and coordinate better.

It’s pretty silly that some people will never complete this content because they don’t have the time to log-in and wait 2-3 hours to get into the main instance. So they get knocked in to overflow where other peoples mistakes mean way more.

The only times I have cleared Marionette is when on main server where there was enough people to compensate for the general ineptitude of the casual player base (sorry guys but it’s true).

Either allow players to get into other platforms when they’ve finished their own to help out or provide a feature for people to coordinate better.

I mean kitten it, I’ve already cleared it and got Scarlets dumb book with the dumb code that doesn’t do jack kitten. I could be selfish and not care as I’ve “got mine” so to speak.

I really don’t think ANet plays Guild Wars 2 with their player base. They’re too oblivious for me to believe that, or there are too many brown nosers continually kissing kitten for them to care perhaps.

It’s silly that people think it’ can’t be completed in the overflow….because I’ve beaten it in the overflow quite a few times.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Vayne.8563:

Beldin.5498:

Jim Hunter.6821:

I’m pretty sure the only ones that are against having both options are the people on the open world side because they’re afraid they won’t be able to find a big enough zerg to spam 1 with.

If you spam 1 constantly you should know that you can activate auto-attack with ctrl-leftclick.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Auto-attack

Don’t know how I missed this comment.

No Jim, that’s not true. I can beat instances, and I can raid. I do just fine in dungeons and fractals.

But I didn’t buy this game to play instances. I’ve always wanted an MMO that was more about the open world.

And if you think you can just spam 1 in open world fights and win, I invite you to try the new jungle wurm encounter.

Yes there is plenty of content where spamming 1 does work. There’s also some content where it doesn’t.

The problem is that the open world content they have made kind of just took what you find in raids, multiplied that by 10 and stuffed it straight into the open world.

It ended up being like a bus in the middle of a river: you can still cross the river with it but it sure is awkward as heck.

Because the first raid bosses were so great. I don’t know about you, but I see development. How can you not see the difference between the original bosses and the marionette fight.

Raid bosses in other games have been evolving for a decade. Did you think open world raid bosses would just appear fully formed over night?