Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

petespri.6548:

Anet is a very poor studio when you look at the amount of talent that has left over 2014. They can’t keep employees.

Oh? How many is that? How does that compare to other studios?

Game company turnover is entirely unheard of! (In an industry where the average at 1 place is 2 years)

~~~

MMO forum-fans though seem to be entirely hype-driven, and entirely grass-is-greener. It’s kind of weird seeing folks get sold over and over and over and over, and it’s been happening consistently for 15 years.

Shadelang.3012:

This I have to give to Nev in part. Fractals are the only place infact where you can get away with using non zerker armor.

“Can get away with?” Whole problem in a nutshell :p

And further showing why Meters are a bad idea. If we have attitudes like this, you don’t want these folks making even more granular judgements on other people.

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

That’s part 2, most groups don’t filter for zerker anymore. I was looking at 30s Fractal pugs earlier (to do one), and saw 1 group that demanded ‘zerk melee’ out of 4-5 groups in the time I was looking. It took forever to fill too.

/shrug

Some people are really averse to failure, and would rather spend forever forming a group that was significantly less likely to fail or be “too slow”. Asking for melee zerkers is a pretty surefire way of getting confident and skillful players, despite how long it might take to form.

That’s their right, and probably also their fun. If they didn’t feel it was too long then it wasn’t too long.

Back on topic, though, content is getting more and more stale (and relatively more and more easy), so my point sort of applies here. As stuff becomes easier for the masses, the people will adjust accordingly by strengthening their filters (because it will no longer take impossibly long to get players who meet the stricter requirements).

Tighter filters will come in the form of AP requirements, class requirements, mechanics requirements (i.e., might stacking), gear check, trait/utility/food check, watching your rotations in game, full melee, etc etc. Or they may simply stop using LFG, leaving fewer groups for the less connected.

Haven’t had a fractal fail in like forever either, and the ones that do are usually low level. Fractals (over 12-14) are one of those things where they self-select people able to do fractals :p

As I’ve said, I’m to some degree happy to have the folks you’re talking about filter themselves out of the gene pool, It makes them happy and it makes everyone else happy.

It’s really a win-win in the long run.

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

why is it so important that it be harder?

Because rewarding passive defense play like this will turn dungeons into bigger loot pinatas than they already are.

If it’s easier it has more reason to be meta :p

Forgive me for saying that I want the game to encourage players to play more like this than like the video I posted before.

We could nerf Ice Bow like we nerfed FGS. But remember what happened when that nerf hit? The speed run community adapted within minutes/hours while PuG AC groups are still disbanding at Spider Queen.

The DPS lead that Berserker gear has over other gear means that right now zerker gear is all that most of us filter for. If you can’t stack might…if you can’t weapon swap, if you suck with utility skills…welp, at least you still have zerker gear and the correct weapon.

Narrow that lead too much, and the filters will change to something that not every player will have a choice in.

That’s part 2, most groups don’t filter for zerker anymore. I was looking at 30s Fractal pugs earlier (to do one), and saw 1 group that demanded ‘zerk melee’ out of 4-5 groups in the time I was looking. It took forever to fill too.

I also don’t think I’ve had a pug disband for months regardless of makeup. Maybe I’m awesome and/or lucky though

doesn’t particularly explain all the emphasis on how hard it actually is.

Also, don’t assume everyone sees fun the way you do,

spoj.9672:

Its still more risk than going for passive defence. How do you not see that? o_o

So the risk vs reward is working correctly. But the max risk isnt high enough. Thats true. But thats nothing to do with the meta.

The kill speed discussion is relevant though, if killing faster is less margin for error, killing faster under black powder is even less.

Goes back to the quesiton too, why is it so important that it be harder? Is this some kind of ‘I can do it the hard way’ contest?

If it’s easier it has more reason to be meta :p

Lifestealer.4910:

Also its hilarious that people think zerk and stack are the same thing, they are not. A full nomad party can stack and do the kitten you said they would do and still be just as effective, just slower.

Another thing is real speedrun group rarely stacks, in fact only the ill-informed pugs continue to stack in places that doesn’t need to be stacked.

What you do in your private l33t groups isn’t relevant to the discussion though. "Zerk meta’ pugs stack.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Again, please learn why people stack. Hint: The vast majority of enemies still attack and use their programmed mechanics against a stacked group.

Gotta go with shade on this one, stacking and active defenses work so well together. If people aren’t intending to take advantage of the fact that things like ae blinds are better in a forced compact area, then teh real reasons they do it must be totally insane.

The thing I’d continually ask people to do is get out of our own heads and think of it from Arenanet’s POV.

Granting that some of the people on here would use such a tool, try to think of it from their pov, especially given that even a small feature isn’t free.

The core points I can see Anet caring about are:

1) How many players will use this tool?
2) How many players will use this tool destructively?

If you think they’re going to do raids when they’ve abandoned 5man, not sure what to say :p

Also, “Kickstarter” both is a nice boost to a certain kind of hype and a ludicrously massive red flag for anyone that pays any attention at all to kickstarter and game development.

Verificus.4320:

Windsagio.1340:

Verificus.4320:

People saying ‘its not a business its a game’.

Yeah well, that’s great for you and all but some of us see games as serious as any competitive athlete would see a sport.

If you are a top HS player and you can win 90k in a tournament. Are you gonna run sub-optimal decks because oh dear meta is so evul and spoils fun. Yeah, totally, winning 90k with the best deck in the game is not fun at all! Losing and being barely able to break even on travel expenses but using a ‘fun’ deck. Yeah, that’s totally worth it right!

Or if you’re a wow raider. Imagine Method saying in an interview, yeah, next time guys, we’re all gonna bring holy pala DPS because it’s way for fun! Screw meta! I’m sure their sponsors would be totally okay about that.

GW2 doesn’t have this level of competition. But I can bet you everyone who is doing the highest level of PvE in this game (or sPvP, which isn’t much the e-sport Anet wanted it to be, yet.. there is still hope) wish there was. And if anet decides to introduce raids to this game, you can bet everyone will race for server 1st/region first/world first completion. And they will all be running meta.

It’s fine that your prefer being casual, as do probably most GW2 players as it is mostly a casual-oriented game. But don’t come with stupid crap like ’it’s just a game’.

As for the comment about the WoW raiding guild demands list. It’s nothing more than a fair list. You want fast progression so obviously you’d only recruit people who can guarantee that.

The WoW raider mentality is something that by all appearances Arenanet has been desperately trying to discourage and leave behind.

Edit: And seriously, renown competition in GW1 and GW2 was all about PvP. Progression competition is toxic and has no place.

It will have a place if Anet introduces raids. Raids by their nature will cause this to happen. Raiding in other games is mostly handled by outside third party websites when it comes to competitions/ladders/statistics. Even if Anet just puts in the raid and completely disregards any competitive support for it, players will create the medium. There will be gw2progress.com just like there is wowprogress.com

Also your impression of the ‘wow raider mentality’ is about as blurred as your impression of the ‘gw2 zerk mentality’. Most of your bad impressions in this game most likely come from pugs. I’d urge you to go on some speedclears with a dedicated guild and hang out with these people and you’ll find we are not elitist monsters but rather really passionate and friendly persons that love this game and love being competitive. All the negativity you see comes from thirteen year olds making ‘NEET SERK FAIV KAY AP OR KIK PING GEAR’ groups and then failing to be useful themselves. The actual community is actually really nice and quite helpful as evident by the amount of resources they have put out like gw2dungeons and the like and also the existence of all the dungeon mentoring programs.
The same can be said for wow. Go follow wow for a while but from the perspective of an ACTUAL competitive guild, rather than a bunch of kids who are severly depressed about both their outside life and their ingame raid progressiont that they take it out on the poor wow plebs. Every community has rotten apples and in MMO’s unfortunately those apples are usually a majority.
I speak for myself when I say I might come off as a jerk in many of these threads but that is mostly aimed at people that are clueless hobbits and want to participate in discussions they no nothing of. The typical newb vs noob. I like newbs. I will teach them what I can and do their story mode dungeons with them in whatever gear they like. I don’t dislike casuals either, lots of my guildies are casuals and they are great people. I do however despise noobs and will kick them from my pugs with a fiery boot of elitist doom.

We should combine threads. I really do want to respond to this but it’s wildly offtopic and we have a zerk meta thread already.

Let me leave it at this: One thing I certainly know about though is the raid mindset. It’s been a while, but the stuff I’m seeing here echoes all to well with the attitude I remember.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Windsagio.1340:

Also, I at least would agree that people joining ‘zerk only’ groups as non zerks are being a big part of the problem. That in and of itself somewhat deals with the whole discussion, except I’d still make an argument that zerk at low levels is damaging dungeon play and participation.

I’ve met the people that Coffie’s talking about too, the ones that can only function in set-circumstance full-zerk full-stack, and they’re a serious problem to a group… even if they’re not insisting that others conform. A player that’s napping all the time because they can’t adapt to the group’s specific dynamics is far more of a detriment than someone offering somewhat subpar dps ever will.

People are wired to repeat behavior that worked. If Joe uses tactic X the first time he does content Y, he’ll repeat the tactic every time. If it doesn’t work, Joe assumes the failure is a result of other people not doing their part. After all, he was doing the same things he did that time it worked, especially when he can see they’re not stacking with him. This behavior pattern is not limited to glass-wearing average to below-average skill LFG randoms. Any behavior can become ingrained in this fashion, not just stack n’ burn.

The real issue is relative skill in execution. Poorly executed kite n’ range, or wolf-pack melee/range also fail dungeons. Skilled players can make up for skill deficiency in some other group members regardless of gear or tactic chosen. Unskilled players dirt-napping are a drag on a group progress regardless of how they got that way or what gear they’re wearing.

If you’re in anti-meta groups you may be noticing the dead guys who want to stack more than you do those who face-plant while using other tactics. There are probably more of them, for one thing. For another, they’re likely more vocal.

Someone who dies during kite n’ range is less likely to blame the rest of the group if he can see they’re also kitin’ ‘n rangin’. Also, he’s likely busy blaming the game. “Kitten it, I know I dodged that! Stupid game!” or “Stupid boss, aggro onto one of those other guys!”

Absolutely in agreement

I’d say there’s a difference though, in that one of these styles has inappropriate cultural force behind it.

I’m sure we’d agree that a good player needs to know when to kite and when to stack and how to adapt to the builds and composition of the party.

Additionally a good player should adapt (I’ve seen so many times of people dying in a stack instead of dodging out) to when a scenario breaks down, which happens to even the best players.

By pushing the zerker meta so hard in these low level groups (with content where you can stack very safely) you end up with people who can’t play out of ‘meta’ and are never forced to learn… especially when combined with the human nature elements you mentioned.

~~~

It’s really hard not to also veer offtarget here, but I’ve gotta ask.

Why is it so very important to establish that zerk is both best and takes super skills?

Verificus.4320:

People saying ‘its not a business its a game’.

Yeah well, that’s great for you and all but some of us see games as serious as any competitive athlete would see a sport.

If you are a top HS player and you can win 90k in a tournament. Are you gonna run sub-optimal decks because oh dear meta is so evul and spoils fun. Yeah, totally, winning 90k with the best deck in the game is not fun at all! Losing and being barely able to break even on travel expenses but using a ‘fun’ deck. Yeah, that’s totally worth it right!

Or if you’re a wow raider. Imagine Method saying in an interview, yeah, next time guys, we’re all gonna bring holy pala DPS because it’s way for fun! Screw meta! I’m sure their sponsors would be totally okay about that.

GW2 doesn’t have this level of competition. But I can bet you everyone who is doing the highest level of PvE in this game (or sPvP, which isn’t much the e-sport Anet wanted it to be, yet.. there is still hope) wish there was. And if anet decides to introduce raids to this game, you can bet everyone will race for server 1st/region first/world first completion. And they will all be running meta.

It’s fine that your prefer being casual, as do probably most GW2 players as it is mostly a casual-oriented game. But don’t come with stupid crap like ’it’s just a game’.

As for the comment about the WoW raiding guild demands list. It’s nothing more than a fair list. You want fast progression so obviously you’d only recruit people who can guarantee that.

The WoW raider mentality is something that by all appearances Arenanet has been desperately trying to discourage and leave behind.

Edit: And seriously, renown competition in GW1 and GW2 was all about PvP. Progression competition is toxic and has no place.

It’s not exactly shocking that what MMO players think is the best game is the game that’s not out yet.

Coffietire.2783:

Jerus.4350:

Coffietire:

Jerks are lame. They’re on both sides, zerks joining non zerk groups and trying to impose their play style. And non zerks joining zerk groups and trying to impose their views and play style.

It goes both ways. People are often jerks, and there’s not much to do about that.

This is true, however, one problem is easier to solve than the other. Fixing the non-glass joining a full glass party is as easy as “ping gear.”

The other issue is a bit more complicated. When my guildies are offline and it’s time to pug, I got to face mixed groups with some being full glass. Nothing wrong with full glass, but these people, with +5k AP, don’t know how to play the dungeon or as an individual glass build (correct use of active defense, positioning, and when to use what attacks) outside the “kill it before it charges it’s laser” with many not even knowing about said laser because the whole community is steeped in their ways.

The result is rage quits, regroups, and a dungeon run on an easy path that now takes 2 hours rather than the 1 hour it takes for any typical path involving mixed groups and a little bit of teaching involved.

Quoted for Emphasis.

This hits a really important point. The “Zerk Meta” question isn’t about high difficulty play with high skilled players, it’s about low difficulty play with a random assortment of players.

~~~

Also, I at least would agree that people joining ‘zerk only’ groups as non zerks are being a big part of the problem. That in and of itself somewhat deals with the whole discussion, except I’d still make an argument that zerk at low levels is damaging dungeon play and participation.

I’ve met the people that Coffie’s talking about too, the ones that can only function in set-circumstance full-zerk full-stack, and they’re a serious problem to a group… even if they’re not insisting that others conform. A player that’s napping all the time because they can’t adapt to the group’s specific dynamics is far more of a detriment than someone offering somewhat subpar dps ever will.

runeblade.7514:

Why don’t we have DPS meters?

Dungeon is all about DPS. It makes no sense to not have it. I want a tool where I can accurately kick people that does subpar dps.

Which honestly answers the question really well.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

The interesting thing to me came up in the other thread; People arguing totally straightfaced that zerk is both the most skill-requiring and the most efficient play.

You can’t read that post and not think “Man this is so an ego thing”

I use to say similar things. To me the word efficient should include effort, and zerk gear certainly requires the most effort making it arguably not as efficient as some alternatives. What most people here mean when saying efficient is that it allows you to complete things faster. In that regard yes, it requires the most skill and you complete things the fastest.

It’s not an ego thing, it’s simply a fact that if you can manage in full zerk without dying constantly, you will complete things the fastest and if you’re looking at efficient use of time that will lead to the most rewards per time.

Now, there are plenty of egos going around but zerk gear being meta isn’t about that, it’s just cold hard facts.

It relates to the meta discussion though because “It’s best if you’re a very good player (scaling to content difficulty)” is very different than “It’s best always ever” which is how people treat the zerk meta discussion.

~~~

If that’s the case than the zerk meta can hurt dungeon participation because a person can end up in a spot where to get into content they’re not ready for they have to gear zerk to get a group, but they’re not ready to run the content in zerk so they lose badly, get discouraged (and no doubt heavily insulted) and quit doing the content.

Which ties to my main theory: In pug situations the zerk meta is harmful because it has a chilling effect on what we have for harder content. Private party is a whole different case, people can run how they want.

The interesting thing to me came up in the other thread; People arguing totally straightfaced that zerk is both the most skill-requiring and the most efficient play.

You can’t read that post and not think “Man this is so an ego thing”

DeWolfe.2174:

This thread has been hijacked by off topic discussions of elitism, dungeon runs, and gear choices. None of which is actually about the topic of a performance meter. As I keep saying repeatedly, there’s more to this game than running in an instance. WvW and sPvP players could use a performance tool especially.

Not meaningfully, dummy target DPS is largely meaningless in both formats, especially in the current meta.

Pure damage maxxing in a controlled environment is pretty much only useful in fully controlled environments like dungeon runs.

Kitarpa.8143:

Okay so aside from everyone being too scared to get their feelings hurt and ego deflated over a video game, which is pretty much the only reason why people don’t want one at this point, I personally would enjoy a DPS meter even if it just measures my DPS.

It’s nice for the people who choose to min/max their kitten and enjoy getting the best possible DPS out of their class. I don’t see why a large majority of people constantly suffer because of carebears in these types of situations.

Well let’s be serious. It’s not a vast majority, it’s a vanishingly tiny minority.

And worse, of that minority, some would use it in disruptive ways.

They’re not going to make a tool that hurts their product.

IndigoSundown.5419:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I believe the current topic is in regards to the zerker meta and the effects of it on the community. You are speaking of the idea of just simply using an optimized power oriented build.

KSIBBQ.8123:

This Zerker meta has to end. It has killed the diversity too long. This game has such a unique build system, and you should truly be able to play how you want. However, unless you have a pre made, then people will kick you. Start building your toon the way you want to!

You believe incorrectly. The OP’s initial complaint was about “lack of diversity” and being able to play as he wants. He does not seek to change people’s behavior by making a case for them accepting other builds as they are, he seeks to have the developer change the game so that a myriad of builds (he does not specify a build he plays) fit into the meta.

The OP’s position isn’t great though, that got mostly cleared out by the end of page 2

CETheLucid.3964:

Windsagio.1340:

CETheLucid.3964:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Yeah I didn’t really like it either.

I kept thinking “why on earth would I be attacking these centaurs” and then remembering that I was Caithe… And then continuing to question it because there is absolutely no motivation for Caithe to do that or blindly follow what Faolin is doing/saying.

It just came across and really poorly thought out and not a whole lot of fun to witness…

20+ years ago, Caithe would do anything for Faolain. Basically they had a mission to bring Wynne home.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Faolain brought an armed regiment into the territory and generally made a kitten of herself, bringing heavy suspicion.

Wynne didn’t want to go. Centaur tribe offers her protection from what can reasonably be assumed as coercion on Faolain and Caithe’s part.

Centaur chieftain and Caithe attempt reason, something goes down outside, hell breaks loose.

It happens. Not all diplomatic overtures end amicably. Our characters fairly sum it up. Things escalated, violently.

They didn’t have a mission, Faolain decided that she wanted to go get Wynne

Yes, that was why they were there.

“Caithe, let’s go get Wynne.”
“K.”

It was their goal to retrieve Wynne. A mission. That’s why they went out there. To figure out Wynne’s secret.

Caithe was young and in love. Their race as a whole just started. You can forgive Caithe for being a bit naive and idealistic.

That’s not love, that’s mind control.

Yes she’s in love, but Faolain is so campishly over-the-top evil and bossy – to Caithe’s face.

The whole point of the game is to make your character into a special snowflake

Almost none of the gameplay is super challenging, but there are thousands of visual customization options (including all the skins and dyes) and tons of titles.

It’s been said before, but the problem with the established meta isn’t the meta itself, but rather how people act in relation to the meta… part of that being putting heavy emphasis on it.

Changing what the meta is won’t do anything to help that of course, but the core is there.

Why are we even talking about meta, when there’s a nice robust meta thread still on the front page?

It only relates to the meta discussion in so far as people want to use the DPS meter to police meta. The question then isn’t whether the meta is good or justified, but rather whether Arenanet is likely to want people policing each other builds.

(My bet is no, it just adds needless conflict)

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Sorry but no.

Profiling black people is wrong because race is not a choice.

As zerker/non-zerker is a choice every player has more or less equal opportunity (this game does not lack equality of opportunity with gear choice) to make, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with profiling by gear.

The only thing that remains is whether or not profiling by gear will get you better players on average. Those who believe it does will rightfully profile by it.

The core problem isn’t whether it’s a useful tool though, the core problem is what it does to player interactions.

I got somewhat derailed as I was responding to a post about zerker gear, not one about DPS meters.

On your point, I think “what it does to player interactions” would only be a reason for ANet to not support the use of DPS meters, but not a reason for them to outlaw meters completely.

If all policy was set on how something could be abused or trolled, we wouldn’t have stuff like the Copper/Silver/Gold bosses in the Silverwastes who can fail because of one single troll.

It’s a 2-way calculation, y’know? The potentially griefable silverwastes bosses are a much bigger gain than a loss, and griefing hasn’t seemed to be a problem (in my experience). Meters are a very small gain for a very large loss… They know how these things have worked out in other games, and it’s been a huge dramafarm.

The gain is… minimal. It’s nice for people who take joy in absolute optimization (which is a pretty small group even out of context of the population), and it’s a tool to judge people who ’aren’t good enough to play with’ for others.

You end up with a tool that the vast majority of the players wouldn’t use, a small group would use and enjoy, and a different (and I suspect larger) small group would use to go after other players.

The SW bosses are a net gain, even if taking much more in the way of resources. Meters are at MOST another feature that nobody uses, and more likely a net negative

DaveGan.8065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Assuming people are “bad” players just because they don’t run zerk gear is the same as assuming that the black man you pass on the street is absolutely going to mug you. It’s not necessarily true. That is the whole point of this conversation.

Sorry but no.

Profiling black people is wrong because race is not a choice.

As zerker/non-zerker is a choice every player has more or less equal opportunity (this game does not lack equality of opportunity with gear choice) to make, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with profiling by gear.

The only thing that remains is whether or not profiling by gear will get you better players on average. Those who believe it does will rightfully profile by it.

The core problem isn’t whether it’s a useful tool though, the core problem is what it does to player interactions.

Wethospu.6437:

Blaeys.3102:

Here is the reality on dps meters.

You can come up with a million and one theoretical reasons why they would be a good thing, but in practice (with years of anecdotal evidence), they have proven to be toxic and create hateful gameplay time and time again.
—

So does this feature called chat.

GW2 Chat is shockingly positive and productive, dps meters aren’t meaningfully productive, except for kitten-measuring

The important point here anyways is that Anet has been clear about these kinds of things, and their answer is they don’t like them.

TPMN.1483:

Leo G.4501:

TPMN.1483:

So this is a “Learn to play” issue with the game.
Dont make the game something it is not.

The ones who have spent time learning things are entitled to create metas (They Are uber dedicated and generally nice people and should be thanked for making things “easier” for all of us by passing on there infinite knowledge and wisdom instead of keeping it all locked away in the head).

HAHAHA you really should cut the flattery. Besides, knowledge is dangerous in the wrong hands as the rampant arguments about this ‘meta’ can attest.

But I’m going to assume you’re just joking in an exaggerated manner (infinite knowledge? LOL). You know if these gw2 virtuosos kept to themselves, perhaps the community wouldn’t be so ready to rend each other limb from limb yet and FGS might yet to be a thing. The only thing you really have to show for your knowledge is more virtual loot which I guess is something. . .

This was a Serious post- the only people I have found who are ready to tear knowledgable players are those who- want to play it there way, think they know everything,, don’t give a monkeys about team play, too prideful to admit they might learn something from someone (insert a whole bunch of other reasons). Most of this boils down to a persons feelings – they should be prepared to learn on each encounter something different and new.

Even when we have run something 1000s of times sometimes we still learn something new or notice something different when doing meta like runs.

It is a small but very vocal minority who do not understand this game that want to tear apart the GW2 virtuosos.

I will repeat this game was designed that Beserker is and was designed to be the best. Don’t make us dig out the original GW2 manifestos proving this.
We have been playing for >2 yrs and I know many may have never seen these items which I speak of.

Brilliance.

Thaddeus.4891:

Windsagio.1340:

Well I’m not annoyed per se, I’d hope my posts in this would be clear enough that I think /meta is a waste of time. I’m in this thread for that reason. The ‘meta’ doesn’t need to die, it’s just a silly bit of fluffery, and I’m hoping to spread that message.

Plenty of people DO legitimately get mad though, as the OP shows.

Well now you look like a geocentrist running around trying to spread the word that the earth is the centre of the universe.

You still gonna have to prove that meta is a waste of time. The only thing you were able to prove so far is that you are not good enough to be able to survive in Silverwaste and that you think that that’s hard content.

Maybe you don’t know that, but when fractal started ppl were doing level 80 with zero Agony Resistance were literally every hit could 1 shot you. And they were still doing it with zerker gear.

I’m not trying to convince you guys, you’re bizarrely committed to the subject.

This is more for people who don’t have ego-ties to the concept, so let me repeat myself:

In almost any dungeon that you’d want to pug the time difference between a ‘meta’ and ‘non-meta’ group is very small. If saving 5 minutes on a TA run is important enough to you that you’re willing to wait longer in LFG and take the time and effort to gear check people, that’s on you.

Nobody Pugs a lvl 80 fractal, just between you and me.

~~~

Edit: And on a more personal note, if you’re going for maximum reward/time you first don’t understand the concept of ‘games’ and secondly shouldn’t be running dungeons anyways.

Tman.6349:

How are you annoyed by feeling excluded from a group that you’re adamantly (by choice) not a part of? Sounds like a strange mishmesh of /feels to me. Put on your big boy pants, choose which play style you prefer and then run out into the world and be a part of that group. What’s stopping you from accomplishing these things? From what I understand, the only positive/new thing to come of this thread is that there is a new PHIW guild in the works that you can join. The last half of your post didn’t quite make any sense though. You say ‘they’ and ‘they’ like you’re in some "super-sekrit’ third group. Like I said earlier, quit being vague and coy, make a decision about what you want out of the game and then pursue whatever it is that you come up with. If you’re looking for happiness outside of yourself, you will fail. If you look outside of yourself to find the root of your unhappiness, you will fail. If you can offer anything tangible regarding my earlier few questions, I’m sure we’d all be delighted to hear.

Well I’m not annoyed per se, I’d hope my posts in this would be clear enough that I think /meta is a waste of time. I’m in this thread for that reason. The ‘meta’ doesn’t need to die, it’s just a silly bit of fluffery, and I’m hoping to spread that message.

Plenty of people DO legitimately get mad though, as the OP shows.

Tman.6349:

I love the idea of people claiming that they hate the meta zerkers and avoid them at all costs and then turn around and try to speak of their tactics and ability, as if they were experts on the subject, in the same breath. O.o It’s so obviously just some kind of irrational, deep seated hatred that causes them spout off with silly things like stacking in corners for everything and not using reflects outside of karka. I understand being a counter culture hipster and all but what does how other people play have to do with you?

And no, the game wasn’t ‘designed for berserker’. The game was designed independent of gear and then berserker’s rose to the top as the most efficient in tandem with active defenses.

I still haven’t got any answers to my questions earlier about ‘what is the ultimate goal of this thread?’, ‘what would be some practical solutions to achieving that goal?’, and ‘what part of the current system has such a negative impact on your gaming experience and how/why do you not have the power to take control and change these things on your own without Dev intervention?’. Anyone care to honestly answer these simple questions? Insisting that there is a problem that needs drastic attention while being vague and coy about the what’s and how’s of the matter is not a way to have a meaningful exchange.

That’s a convenient position to take, but experience tells. I’m not one to doubt the super-sekrit elite groups, but we have to understand what’s behind the whole conflict on both sides.

The essence comes down to pseudo-elitism on the one side and annoyance at being excluded on the other.

The people doing excluding in pugs are ridiculous, because, seriously in most things you’d want to pug zerk gear doesn’t matter in any meaningful way,

The other people are just as silly though for demanding to be included.

For the latter group: most groups don’t advert zerk these days, and let them isolate themselves. Everyone wins, and them being dumb doesn’t actually hurt you.

~~~

There’s not much reason to get hung up on it conceptually, but also no reason to buy into their position.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Moka.8432:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

The ONLY foe which can be killed in LESS time than with zerker gear is the HUSK. Believe it or not.

This is the damage fixation thing again. We’re in a position where mad dammy isn’t the only concern, and where it can get chaotic enough that you can’t accurately predict all the possible things that can 1shot you.

The bosses don’t matter, the important thing is that you do follow the rules of the particular boss (so don’t 100B the Husk).

When we have a full server, it doesn’t really matter, nothing really gets out of control and your margin of error stays reasonable.

When you get into the actual hard content in the zone, saving failing forts and such, all of a sudden it does matter, and melee berzerker is one of the least optimal setups.

You do realize that people who are 100% on point exist – because they play this game for 8+ hours a day every day almost all year long yes?

So he’s not wrong. It’s just that these people are rare. But he is right.

They’re the ones who make metas, play them and usually get all the hate for being “those guys that can do stuff we can’t so let’s hate on them”.

Shenanigans :p

Like I said elsewhere I think there are people who are 80% on point and knowledgable enough to avoid failure scenarios entirely :p

Rozbuska.5263:

This particular overlay (there is not only dps meter) is something what I am look foward for. I hope devs will tell us here if its banable or not because its something what many ppl missing in game and its not bring any advantage for user only space for personal impovements.

These have been consistently forbidden and called bannable offenses. No reason that another one would be different.

spoj.9672:

It wasnt individual mobs. You can take on pretty huge groups if you actually pay attention and its not like you need to know what the mobs do, their tells are really obvious compared to older mobs. For the game to be genuinely challenging for the higher skilled players the average player would cry a river of tears at how hard it is. Im all for more challenging content. But i know that if we got it you would see far more “QQ too hard” posts than we have currently been seeing for the Living story releases.

Mordrem are barely any more dangerous than your standard old trash mobs. Yet everyone regards them as some massive step up in difficulty. I find that odd. They are well designed, they have more variety and they look cool. But they arent really any harder. Most fractal trash mobs are far more unforgiving than mordrem. And thats not even including the non vet trash mobs.

Well again, that’s my ultimate example of self-selecting. Not many people complain about the difficulty of a level 44 fractal or even Arah, they just don’t do it.

Similarly, if a fort is in truly bad shape in the silverwastes people will simply let it fall (there are usually a few that try to save it and die, and very occasionally you do a clutch save, all of a sudden the game shines again).

Otherwise I agree, they have to keep the base level content easy, because people at best won’t do it (ie dungeons, which are pretty easy and people STILL don’t do them much). There are spots of hardness that few people will engage in unless severely rewarded, and then you get complaints (LS2 achievements sometimes).

I’d disagree about the Fractal trash though. They scale to higher values than the mordrem, that is true. However they still have the same absolutely basic attack patterns. That kind of scaling actually supports the ‘zerk meta’. If the attack is going to put you down either way, there’s even less reason to run defensive stats. The challenge in the Mordrem is that their patterns often require player reaction in the way fractal enemy attacks don’t. Black powder won’t help you if you’re standing in the goo dropped by a spinning thresher, and things like aegis are stripped immensely quickly by the rapid root attacks or even a tetragryph charge.

~~~

And maybe that’s the point we can come to. Let me, for the sake of argument, agree that presuming perfect or near-perfect play pure-dps gear is simply better than hybrid stat gear. The vast majority of the people who push and play in the berzerker meta aren’t capable of near-perfect play.

If we grant everyone in this discussion and all of their friends are just that good, it’s still a tiny % of the population, and not the population this game is (or any game should be) designed for. For most of the population the zerk meta works because there’s a series of learned tricks in dungeons that mitigate all of the downsides of berzerker gear.

Even if the new content isn’t hard for all the perfect players in this discussion, that’s largely irrelevant to the larger scale design. People as awesome as us will thrive whatever the environment is.

EDIT:

Also, yes I know that pvp and wvw aren’t pve, but they put the lie to the player skill argument. If it were actually possible, Anet would make the pve interactions as complex and fluid as pvp battles are, and in those situations berserker gear is pretty much laughable.

There’s limits to what you can do with software though, so we can’t actually functionally reach that level.

Ben K.6238:

If DPS continues to be the only thing that matters, a meter of some sort would be useful for testing builds. However, if ANet still plan to design future content in ways that make DPS secondary to player skill, it’s giving hand grenades to monkeys.

The problem is that “Only DPS matters” is a player construct. Arenanet would be foolish to encourage the idea.

spoj.9672:

Its not speculative. I could do it first time i went up against those mobs. I didnt have to change anything and it was easy. I assume its the same for many others. :P

If you’re talking about individual mobs you’re missing the point entirely. One of the features of the new content is throwing mixtures of enemies with mixtures of abilities. There are situations in-game now where NOBODY can survive for very long, but it’s not single enemies. It’s a scenario where too many different things are being thrown at you all at once (and note the bit about self-selection above).

The Characteristic of the old content is that you could pretty much reduce any fight to a simple manageable bite that you could mitigate.

Croc.5129:

My problem is that there is no room for growth besides ramping up the damage. As a player, maybe you can’t reach that perfect gameplay in berserker armour, but the way the game is now, that relegates you to wearing gear that doesn’t help you kill the enemy faster, or help engage the enemy in another meaningful fashion that will lead to killing the enemy faster, but just to allow you to take extra hits.

The answers they’re going with are incidental damage (which a lot of people hate) and combinations that make static mitigation less meaningful.

The extreme example would be radius ticks, ‘if you’re close to this enemy you always take X damage’. There’s a few of these, but it’s not an overall solution, it essentially negates skill and just shifts the meta.

What they seem to be going for is the controlled chaos: The theoretically but not practically fully defendable damage. In silverwastes, if there are 2 trolls with AE’s chasing you, 2 tetragryphs that have decided they like to charge a lot (and maybe 1 doing that AE damage howl), some husks to soak damage and send out immobilizes, and a thresher shooting roots everywhere, you can theoretically mitigate each of those effects, but you’re going to have to choose which ones, and you’re probably going either get chased out of the area or get downed.

Position can help, and using terrain can help, but there’s still just too much going on to mitigate everything. All of a sudden, behavior is more important than build. The melee zerker can be effective, but is going to take support or is going to have to clear out a lot to recover (or to split enemies). The person in knight or valk or whatever can actually stay in the fight a little longer, providing more of those group benefits and being able to get more hits in (although not too many more, it gets pretty brutal). They’re also less likely to be victim to the somewhat unpredictable threat in the game, and have an extra second if they’re suddenly focused by several enemies (which of course totally happens in that scenario).

It’s not perfect yet, but that seems to be Anet’s goal, and they seem headed in the right direction to reach it in their encounter design.

The problem is that most stuff has to be easy enough to faceroll zerk because that keeps most of the players coming back (or not getting frustrated enough to quit).

Croc.5129:

Windsagio.1340:

This is the damage fixation thing again. We’re in a position where mad dammy isn’t the only concern, and where it can get chaotic enough that you can’t accurately predict all the possible things that can 1shot you.

The bosses don’t matter, the important thing is that you do follow the rules of the particular boss (so don’t 100B the Husk).

When we have a full server, it doesn’t really matter, nothing really gets out of control and your margin of error stays reasonable.

When you get into the actual hard content in the zone, saving failing forts and such, all of a sudden it does matter, and melee berzerker is one of the least optimal setups.

The problem is, it still makes a person in zerker gear who is skilled at dodging the ultimate expression of skill within the game.

Sturdier armor doesn’t change encounter dynamics, or open up a different way to render the enemy vulnerable, it just acts as a difficulty modifier for the individual player.

The game’s core mechanics lack a means of turning your inherent mitigation into tangible power to be used against the enemy, and as long as that is the case, the advantage will always go to berserker gear.

Being able to take an extra hit means nothing when you can’t really do anything interesting with it.

If this narrow path of mastery was actually implemented on purpose, it makes some of the game’s design choices questionable, especially having stats on gear.

If it does not actively contribute to improving you as a player within the mechanics provided, there is a balance issue somewhere in there.

As a wise man said, “if you can always make 3pointers why would you ever do layups?”

The thing is, with the increasing incidental damage and general chaos that theoretical margin of error keeps getting smaller and smaller, and eventually vanishes.

It’s not every fight, nor should it be, but let’s not pretend everyone plays perfectly all the time and that everyone always has their active tools available when they needed them.

In the truly difficult fights sometimes you’re going to take some hits, and sometimes the only thing to do if you’re only running melee is to get out of the way for a while.

~~~

Honestly everybody seems to think they’re ‘that guy’ though, the one that can avoid everything. From watching people play, especially in SW, I think it’s more a case of self-selection. A zerker player with any kind of skill can (and often does) simply avoid entering those situations where they can’t perform. This isn’t judgement on them, it makes sense, and all content in GW2 is optional.

It does however warp personal experiences though, oftentimes you barely notice you’re doing it, and there’s a huge difference between ‘fine in every circumstance’ and ‘fine in every circumstance you take part in’.

Edit: Moka, your quote tags are terrible:

To answer the meaningful question the style I’m talking about is melee berzerker. It’s very high risk, especially with the high levels of CC and conditions in these encounters.

The tools aren’t reliable because you don’t have remotely 100% coverage. In a dungeon fight, especially with a stack, you can expect to be under somebody’s active defenses for nearly the entirety of the fight, and you’re getting combined buffs to make the fight time even shorter.

You’re assuming that you’re always going to have the defenses you need at the time you need them, and that’s frankly absurd.

Moka.8432:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

The ONLY foe which can be killed in LESS time than with zerker gear is the HUSK. Believe it or not.

This is the damage fixation thing again. We’re in a position where mad dammy isn’t the only concern, and where it can get chaotic enough that you can’t accurately predict all the possible things that can 1shot you.

The bosses don’t matter, the important thing is that you do follow the rules of the particular boss (so don’t 100B the Husk).

When we have a full server, it doesn’t really matter, nothing really gets out of control and your margin of error stays reasonable.

When you get into the actual hard content in the zone, saving failing forts and such, all of a sudden it does matter, and melee berzerker is one of the least optimal setups.

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

It actually is. But the content is new enough that people haven’t mastered all the mobs’ and bosses’ moves so they die. The only possible exception is the husk boss, where if you were soloing him you’d want Sinister. But the best DPS you’re going to do is with melee berserker, and so long as you don’t die thats what you should be doing. If you aren’t capable of not dying because you aren’t skilled enough thats a personal issue and has nothing to do with what’s optimal and what isnt.

That’s nice theory, as far as it goes. It’s speculative though, there’s a number of things that are more easily argued to be specifically bad for the playstyle I’m talking about though.

You have to be VERY on point to consistently deliver the damage, the tools you use in dungeon content simply aren’t reliable anymore.

At the very least it’s approaching the original goal. The difference is that we can’t mitigate the risk into meaninglessness, it would be too slow and inefficient to set up the situations.

And you’re assuming eventual perfect play. Some of the scenarios get extremely hard.

And to repeat, the biggest problem is that some people insist on the ‘zerker meta’ when it simply doesn’t matter.

In a TA group it’s far more important that you actually know how to do the runs than it is that you’re geared properly. That’s definitely one of the places where a bad zerker in your group is an even bigger nightmare.

TPMN.1483:

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I did every dungeon. I have my dungeon master, and I’m lv 18 fractal with 25 AR and seen every fractal and did them. I do open world more as I found a better way to make gold than run the same dungeon over and over doing the boring meta way of play. I only go back to a dungeon nowadays to get tokens for a skin I don’t have and i suffer doing it with you meta lovers.

Even then, I can just pvp now that I have every reward track open.

I don’t grind for gold in dungeons. I do them for a challenge. Standing in one spot even in fractals and killing everything AI exploited, and not doing the mechanics how they were intended, is boring and lazy and non-challenging.

I rather have a dungeon with 5 man puzzles, traps (guild puzzle style?), and doors— that seal themselves off Zelda-style until you kill every foe with good rewards and money— right now to have at least a semblance of a challenge. I did make this suggestion in the now dead dungeon forums and not one positive reply.

Goes to show who is not open to change and its not me.

I must be that jaded or want something new.

Go do lvl 50 FoTM then come talk to us about Meta. It’s obvious you don’t do dungeons regularly from this quote so may not be familiar with all the hidden bits under what you’re classifying as “meta” eg CC skills and active defences.
What you classify as exploits is not an exploit – we have had ANET Dev feedback on hag hat is an exploit and what is not as general guidelines – Stacking and moving foes to a corner (out of line of sight) is not an exploit.

That’s back to another sub-discussion. “Exploit” is not the same as “Punishable Exploit”. LOS’ing enemies to get them to group up in your AE’s is certainly exploiting AI behaviors, it’s just as certainly not a punishable exploit or against the TOS.

Stacking to maximise AE’s and shared abilities isn’t really exploiting at all, I’d agree, although it behooves Anet to design in ways to make it harder to do. (In GW1 for instance, enemies moved out of AE’s instead of sitting in them).

It does lead to dull play though, until you get to the hardest content it tends to be extremely repetitive.

~~

The mention of high fractals makes an interesting point, kind of another inversion. In a high level Mai Trin fight, the cannons don’t legitimately care whether you’re in zerker or nomads, it still punishes the error instead of the gear. Up to about level 30 Mai is actually a zerker unfriendly fight though, it’s defintely handy to have more mitigation, she’ll occasionally overwhelm your active defenses.

Lets try again. By allowing a dps meter they’re at the very least tacitly saying that DPS is something that should be recorded and judged.

It opens a massive can of worms for CS and negative player behavior. You don’t give players more tools to be kittens to each other with.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Was thinking about silverwastes, have to modify my own position;

“Classic Meta” zerker is terrible (epseically thieves and warriors) in silverwastes, except for certain paths for escorting donkeys.

Ranged zerker (staff ele and ranger) is quite good. You don’t take the beating from the thrashers and the tetragryphs.

power/condition (especially necro and engineer) are excellent. Lots of splash and conditions eat the normally tough enemies.

Guard/Ele support is about as good as it always is, shout guardians are one of the things that can save a fort that’s being overrun.

Silverwastes is in a lot of ways an inversion of the dungeon meta (excepting guardians who are always handy of course). It’s a brave new world where you can actually end up thinking ‘wow I wish I had more longbow Rangers’.

Except I’m a zerk warrior and I do fine in the silverwastes. I can faceroll up and down with no issues in melee range.

It’s not about gear, but skill.

Admitting I overspoke with the word ‘terrible’, it’s like the dungeon ‘meta’.

Melee zerk is not optimal for the harder Silverwastes content, just like carrion isn’t optimal for 5man dungeon content.

~~~

It’s kind of a reverse presentation of how people present the ‘dungeon meta’. It’s not quite optimal, but it’s fine. Like you said, player skill is more important than build.

In both places

Moka.8432:

Windsagio.1340:

terrible (epseically thieves and warriors) in silverwastes, except for certain paths for escorting donkeys.
So I’m a terrible player if I can take down a husk in a few seconds with my zerker thief? And they are the only foes which take a little bit longer to kill in zerker gear. All other foes die just as fast as non-silverwastes foes.

Ranged zerker (staff ele and ranger) is quite good. You don’t take the beating from the thrashers and the tetragryphs.
Have you ever tried to use the dodge-function?

power/condition (especially necro and engineer) are excellent. Lots of splash and conditions eat the normally tough enemies.
Only husks die faster with conditions.

Guard/Ele support is about as good as it always is, shout guardians are one of the things that can save a fort that’s being overrun.
Dead foes can’t overrun a fort

Comments in the quote.

You came at this from a OMG DEFEND ZERK position not a ’response position still;

1) Enjoy that tetragrypth that blindsided you with a chain knockdown charge and killed you in 2 bounces. Fragile melee is fragile and in melee, there are things in SW that make that tough.

2) You don’t have that many dodges. You can kill small groups and skulk around the edges, but zerk melee tends to end up just another body when the kitten gets real. Like I said, it’s still great for the escorts.

3) But everything dies from conditions, and you’re most likely not having your conditions being overwritten by other players. You don’t seem to be entirely clear on how the problems with conditions work.

4) Well sure, if you have mass numbers to cover all approaches and at the same time don’t overscale the event.

~~~

Like I said, it’s fine in escorts (depending on the spread of opponents) but breaks down in fort actions, there’s too much chaos to predictably mitigate.

Some versions are also problematic in some of the bosses

Verificus.4320:

Except it’s not a gimmick, it’s meta. It’s the best way to play.

I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

Because it makes people play to DPS rather than to any other metric, and that leads to bad play and bad player behavior.

Fransson.7910:

I just felt the need to say this… zerker warrior is kitten in the Silverwastes, conditions are better, so this is possitive development (good luck taking down those slingers by yourself with a zerkerwarrior with a GS)

Was thinking about silverwastes, have to modify my own position;

“Classic Meta” zerker is terrible (epseically thieves and warriors) in silverwastes, except for certain paths for escorting donkeys.

Ranged zerker (staff ele and ranger) is quite good. You don’t take the beating from the thrashers and the tetragryphs.

power/condition (especially necro and engineer) are excellent. Lots of splash and conditions eat the normally tough enemies.

Guard/Ele support is about as good as it always is, shout guardians are one of the things that can save a fort that’s being overrun.

Silverwastes is in a lot of ways an inversion of the dungeon meta (excepting guardians who are always handy of course). It’s a brave new world where you can actually end up thinking ‘wow I wish I had more longbow Rangers’.