Guild Wars 2

In a perfect word they’d be as smart and act in a similar way to pvp opponents (and balanced appropriately). We’re not in a perfect world though, so we’re pretty limited in what our AI’s can do.

That would be a meta shift, but it would be an interesting one.

If only it were possible :p

TPMN.1483:

Once you experience smooth nice runs – you’ll never turn back and realise this is how the game was meant to be played and can really enjoy the content.

Funny thing on this;

Kind of on a whim, last night I joined a level 1 fractal that advertised for novices. I wanted to help (if I could without being overwhelming) and I wanted to try something different off, and used my sinister Necro (Usually for fractals it’s guardian or ele). 32-3 of the players had never done fractals before.

We got;
Uncategorized,
Cliffside,
Volcanic,
Mai trin.

Given the scenario and our weird makeup, the run went shockingly smoothly.

Even on Mai, where at least 1 person had never done the fight before, we had nobody die in the main phase and a total of 2 people go down in the cannon-fire.

The main problem in the entire run was that our guardian had this difficulty learning that he should put down the hammer before the stacks get to 40 (which was more funny than sad).

Maybe they were secretly super skilled players who had just avoided fractals, and maybe fractal 1 is the easiest content in the game when you know the rules, but given that a random run going decidedly non-meta with random pickup players went totally smoothely with no wipes, I dunno it says something.

Probably about specifying others playstyle isn’t required for a smooth run :p

Seera.5916:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

We don’t make demands if you don’t join our groups.

We are also not responsible if you choose not to join or make your own community. It honestly feels like you see some of us as “tryhards” at this point.

So again.

• You can become a member of “our group” by equipping the “correct”/“meta”/“optimal” gear, traits, and utilities (which can vary by dungeon and specific encounter of course).
• You will not generally see anything beyond gear filters (i.e., skill filters) unless you want to join a speed/record run guild
• You can make or join your own group with zero or custom requirements
• You can make or join your own community with likeminded people

I don’t know how else to say it. It feels like I’m hearing “I just want to be lazy and you guys are making me feel bad by working hard”.

(bold mine)

You just had to slip that n there, didn’t you :p

If you seriously think gear filters are skill filters, we’re back at page 1 again.

More generally, I wouldn’t treat this as much more than a discussion. It doesn’t mean I"m making kitten up to mess with people, but I’m guessing most of us are able to go our own ways and do our own stuff in game, this is just a (if you’ll excuse the pun) meta discussion.

He said anything beyond gear filters.

And gave an example of a filter that would be beyond gear filters.

I don’t think he meant that gear choice is a definite sign that someone is a skilled player.

Hmm, you’re probably right.

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

We don’t make demands if you don’t join our groups.

We are also not responsible if you choose not to join or make your own community. It honestly feels like you see some of us as “tryhards” at this point.

So again.

• You can become a member of “our group” by equipping the “correct”/“meta”/“optimal” gear, traits, and utilities (which can vary by dungeon and specific encounter of course).
• You will not generally see anything beyond gear filters (i.e., skill filters) unless you want to join a speed/record run guild
• You can make or join your own group with zero or custom requirements
• You can make or join your own community with likeminded people

I don’t know how else to say it. It feels like I’m hearing “I just want to be lazy and you guys are making me feel bad by working hard”.

(bold mine)

You just had to slip that n there, didn’t you :p

If you seriously think gear filters are skill filters, we’re back at page 1 again.

More generally, I wouldn’t treat this as much more than a discussion. It doesn’t mean I"m making kitten up to mess with people, but I’m guessing most of us are able to go our own ways and do our own stuff in game, this is just a (if you’ll excuse the pun) meta discussion.

Cheezy.2039:

Don’t you think that being ambitious is a good thing – wanting to refine something more and more until it becomes perfect? (unless there is a translation I am not aware of)
Would you not feel proud after achieving something great? Would you not feel ‘status conscious’ when you have proven multiple times that you definitly are good at something? And now people are saying wrong things just about the stuff you know a ton about?
I agree that often being impatient is not a good thing but it sometimes pushes progress.

My point is, what is wrong about wanting to do something better than before – why can’t I expect people to contribute to the success of the whole party? Or at least: not intentionally do something worse than it was done before?

Everything within moderation, and everything has positive and negative aspects :p

Ambition and organization are positive, impatience and status-consciousness are less so :p

I skimmed back a few pages and missed the post you’re referring to indigo, sorry.

Still, there have been a number of posts along the lines of ‘no, you guys are the real toxic ones, not us’, and It’s hard to take the line of logic used in a peewee herman movie seriously.

That being said, I’ve agreed a few times that the people lying and joining groups improperly are part of the problem, it certainly doesn’t help things. Nevertheless, ‘ambitious, status conscious, and impatient’ is not something I want to deal with, and I’m going to stick with the idea that it’s a fairly valid description.

Outside of this specific discussion, we’re pretty good at avoiding conflict, and the conflict is apt to the discussion.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Windsagio.1340:

Had a bit about that above, it’s probably a “Type A personality” thing. The people who tend to be drawn to things like speedruns (and lots of competition and lots of status) tend to be annoying for others to deal with. It’s not specific to your community, of course, but the things that would make you ‘rigidly organized and status conscious’ would make you annoying (if you prefer, toxic) to more laid back people.

The props thing is a great exmaple of this is the insistence on props and respect above. To people not into that it reads as pretty ugly and egotistical.

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

I don’t think I’ve ever really seen the ‘bads’ thing in (this) game, but it’s certainly come up enough in these two threads. I don’t want it framed as a ’you’re just mad’ thing, it’s more a ‘I play this game to have fun and I’ve had enough of this in other games’ thing.

Honestly I bring it up mainly because it fits the pattern, it’s a good puzzle piece; it fits so well in the (to quote wiki)

ambitious, rigidly organized, highly status-conscious, sensitive, impatient, take on more than they can handle, want other people to get to the point, anxious, proactive, and concerned with time management.

mindset.

You’re being pretty judgmental over someone’s decision to play a game a certain way. If you dislike the mindset, don’t play with them. If their imitators join your laid-back group and kitten you off, then kick them.

It’s not a good idea to psychoanalyze someone based on posts on an internet game website. You don’t have the kind of observations to do so accurately. Also, you’re going to come across as insulting if not condescending when you try.

If you had any ammo to counteract the response I posted earlier about the real cultural toxicity around this issue, you’d have responded. Since you have not, it leads me to wonder if you’re just trolling.

I’ll go back and look for your post again, and see if there’s something i missed, we’ll see.

About coming off judgemental, I’d probably have to cop to that. It’s not a type I’m happy having to deal with. The fact that we presume to let that mindset drive our gameplay is boggling and somewhat depressing to me.

DaveGan.8065:

Then why do you say people who want to speed run are toxic to people who don’t want to speed run?

This societal/peer pressure thing you bring up is a joke. Pure and simple, it’s social anxiety and lack of initiative and community. Those things are up to the people who want to play how they want “enjoy the game to the fullest”.

We will not build your community for you, as we’ve spent enough time and effort building our own. Please don’t blame our “community” for your unwillingness to turn your own “group” into a “community”.

Those who call you guys “bad”—they do not speak for most of us, and generally most of us simply acknowledge that you are “different”. As I said before, the only times most of us use the word “bad” is when one of you tries to sneak into our groups, or when one of you tries to pass off your PHIW build in chat as optimal or close enough to optimal.

Unless you wish your own “group” and “playstyle” to be judged by the most toxic in your group, I kindly request you please stop judging ours by our worst role models as well.

Had a bit about that above, it’s probably a “Type A personality” thing. The people who tend to be drawn to things like speedruns (and lots of competition and lots of status) tend to be annoying for others to deal with. It’s not specific to your community, of course, but the things that would make you ‘rigidly organized and status conscious’ would make you annoying (if you prefer, toxic) to more laid back people.

The props thing is a great exmaple of this is the insistence on props and respect above. To people not into that it reads as pretty ugly and egotistical.

Also, like I said, I don’t particularly have a community except the avoid people who make demands on me community. That means I won’t join a group that demands zerk, even if the character I’m on is in a zerker set.

I don’t think I’ve ever really seen the ‘bads’ thing in (this) game, but it’s certainly come up enough in these two threads. I don’t want it framed as a ’you’re just mad’ thing, it’s more a ‘I play this game to have fun and I’ve had enough of this in other games’ thing.

Honestly I bring it up mainly because it fits the pattern, it’s a good puzzle piece; it fits so well in the (to quote wiki)

ambitious, rigidly organized, highly status-conscious, sensitive, impatient, take on more than they can handle, want other people to get to the point, anxious, proactive, and concerned with time management.

mindset.

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

The whole concept revolves around using other people’s failures and experiences to your benefit. Where others failed they were forced to adapt and improve. You can simply pick up the latest iteration and use it for yourself.

As a continuation of this thought:

This is not unique to games. All of human advancement is based on the idea of building on the work of those who have preceded you rather than having to start from scratch, reinventing the wheel as it were, for every possible endeavor.

Except the specifics of tuning speedruns aren’t that useful or meaningful to people that don’t care about speed runs

It’s like expecting props for advancements in cup stacking outside of the competitive cup stacking circuit(1).

(1)except cup stacking is harder to do and to figure out than GW2 stacking. Most of these advancements aren’t exactly rocket science, and it’s been a longterm process of development and refinement.

DaveGan.8065:

And just like now, you can avoid all that filthy elitist toxicity by just creating your own group

There’s a subtext to this that I kind of hadn’t realized before. To pharaphrase slightly, it’s akin to saying “It’s not a problem that I’m awful to people, you can always stay away from me!” Again, technically true, but not heavy on the self-awareness.

Edited:

Not saying that Dave’s awful to people, I’m sure he’s great to run with, the point is that toxic behavior being avoidable doesn’t make it not toxic.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

TPMN.1483:

Pass me the popcorn … I prefer the salty one but at a push I could have the sweet one.
This is the most interesting thread so far.

You’re right, the folks checking their props on each other are pretty great
On that note, were you straight up or not with that ‘DESERVE’ stuff? It’s gold either way, but it’s worth knowing.

Laugh all you want – the people above who helped create and shaped the meta deserve recognition. They did something for all of us.
They gave us tools in order to obtain that which we strive for faster and more efficiently.

What have you done?

I’ve consistently enjoyed playing a game for over 2 years, even parts of it that you’ve declared ‘dead’.

Honestly expecting props for more than that is at the very best silly. A MMO isn’t an affirmation parade.

Man, that’s an intensely paranoid attitude in general.

You’re at best constantly suspecting that people are lying to you and waiting to go “AHA! GOTCHA YOU KITTEN!”

Honestly it sounds like a miserable way to live.

TPMN.1483:

Pass me the popcorn … I prefer the salty one but at a push I could have the sweet one.
This is the most interesting thread so far.

You’re right, the folks checking their props on each other are pretty great

On that note, were you straight up or not with that ‘DESERVE’ stuff? It’s gold either way, but it’s worth knowing.

Yargesh.4965:

They are clear that nothing can interact with the client. Written in the ToS. Overlays that don’t interact are fine. DPS meters would need to interact with the client.

Could be recalling wrong, but I seem to have this memory of someone posting film of himself using a DPS meter he’d made on the forums a while ago and getting into account trouble for it.

Now someone explain what makes the thresher teleport and that the stacks on it actually do ><

And seriously, I Hope nobody thinks that ‘zerk player == jerk’ is an absolute truism, because of course it isn’t.

I think we’d find a legitimate correlation between a certain angry, blame-oriented behavior and competitive players, it’s a pattern that crosses over multiple games and styles;

1) The guy that used to yell at people in queensdale for daring to kill a champ out of order
2) The guy who yells at his team in pvp when they lose, talking about how everyone else is playing wrong
3) The guy who blames the other people in his group when something goes wrong in a dungeon, especially that they’ve got the wrong build.

It tends to be competition or optimization oriented, and it’s almost always outward facing.

I’m sure Weth, for instance, isnt’ that guy, but we all know that guy exists, and is unfortunately common.

Wethospu.6437:

Shadelang.3012:

What im trying to figure out is what anything he said had to do with the zerk meta or a dps meter. He solod a fractal. Invited random people in and they kicked him out. Yeah im flat out sure there kittens. But theres kittens in EVERY single aspect of the game.
—

As astral explained and you pointed out, point was that some people are just jerks. I’m bit tired of hearing people justify everything based on “zerk or requirements = elitist jerk” and “cleric/pvt = good guy”.

If you are worried about quality of posts I would take look at that “meta” topic.

It was also interesting to see whether anyone would defend these guys because they weren’t standard elitists.

If it went down the way you say, nobody would defend that behavior, feel assured :p

Iris Ng.9845:

It has been going to 21 pages. I have seen a few same names going on and on in their own little novels with barely any new arguments at all. Can we reach the consensus or keep getting at each others’ throats?

There is no consensus, nor is one possible.

We’re just exploring the ideas at this point :p

Tormented XXX of Torment is the best naming convention ever

It’s a cool idea, but I’m not sure people would go in for a rare celestial ring

posted in wrong thread earlier

Which leads to an interesting point; If you have a DPS meter, and people are used to running very easy content to the meter and maximizing that number over anything else, they’re going to be woefully unprepared when they all of a sudden have to do a Mai Trin or shadow of the dragon fight.

let me switch that post over to the correct discussion, sorry ><

edit: Embarassingly posted in wrong thread

It does read as an oversight, and is moderately (if not hugely) abusable.

Block being instant 2-way makes a lot of sense to me.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Windsagio.1340:

@People making more time computations; …
-snip-
Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

See, these types of statement are what make me look at anti-meta arguments and shake my head. No one is enforcing a play-style on the entirety of the community. They’re enforcing a play-style in individual groups.

Some players care about efficiency. The ones who crunch numbers say that glass gear is the most efficient. People who want efficiency want to play with others who want efficiency. Just saying that the efficiency paradigm isn’t efficient is not going to change the minds of efficiency-oriented players. Only numbers will change their minds. Anecdotes about what happens in your parties won’t do it. Your opinion that the efficiency meta is not that efficient won’t either.

The way you’re defining things, all metagame paradigms in all games are bad for the culture of the community as a whole. So, some other games have DPS-check encounters. So what? The paradigm that evolves to beat those encounters will still cause exclusion and divisiveness. All that “required DPS” does is create an imposed barrier that cannot be passed without certain gear, build or rotation. What’s going on between people is the same whether the DPS threshold considered acceptable is required or just preferred.

The real cultural issue taking place is a disagreement over which paradigm gets used in groups formed using the LFG convenience tool. How do I know this? Because there would be no reason to complain if people made their dungeon groups via friends or guild lists. Those who group this way are doing so with people they have some idea about. Also, in such groups social forces matter. In the impersonal, random grouping of the convenience tool, those social forces do not exist. You cannot enforce concern for others in a random environment with little to no consequence for anti-social behavior. In fact, the one consequence that does come into play, kicking, is one of the sources of these complaints.

The exclusion issue could be solved if people accepted responsibility for their own actions. This would require people dropping the idea that they should be entitled to be able to join any group they want regardless of what others want. The preferred DPS in GW2 affords a much greater amount of diversity in groups than other MMO’s. It’s a pity that people get so hung up on convenience that they insist on getting into any group at any time with minimal waiting, with :their" preferred gear/build and want the game to change so that they can do so, no matter others’ preferences.

That’s my whole point (if I read right) very few people are actually intentionally trying to reinforce meta, but there are cultural forces that end up being at work that give it undue weight. That undue weight causes all kinds of problems.

~~~

You’re also not differentiating between game enforced meta (DPS checks, AR requirements, resist gear checks in old raids), competitive meta, and player-preference ‘meta’. In the final case, I am absolutely saying that they’re generally toxic and harmful to the community and play.

~~~
Finally; I think only running with your prefferred gear/setup leads to boring play. If I want to do a dungeon, and the only people are zerker (or for some of my chars), I’ll run zerker. If I’m a zerker warrior and there’s a condi necro and a clerics’ guardian, that’s going to be an entirely different experience playing the dungeon, but it’s fine because it’s interesting. I have to play a little differently and adapt, but to me that’s a worthwhile skill in and of itself.

Waiting on a preferred group is (to me) only closing off the range of experience and play you can have.

Seera.5916:

So what should it be called?

To me the meta is the gear and build set up that is designed to do the content the best. And there’s a meta for every aspect of the game. Which fits zerker for dungeons perfectly at the moment. So I don’t have a problem with calling it what I feel that it is: the meta.

Edit: And even the pro-meta players in here have said that it’s wrong to call those who don’t run meta bad. We change the name of it and define it as optional and people will still treat it the same as they currently treat it now when it’s called meta.

It will still be used by the rude people to call people either bad (for not playing it) or elitist (for playing it).

Zerker speedrun? Just calling it zerker is shorter too, and more to the point.

The elitist thing is funny to me, because you’re kind of ceding the high ground to the poeple you’re angry at. To truly be elitist you have to be the elite (or distinguished in some way).

Honestly though, don’t expect you to change your usage, it works for you, and no reason I can give will be compelling to people that like to use it.

It’s still wrong though :p

Wethospu.6437:

That would be pretty interesting. I would also like their arguments for joining “free daily” and then kicking the host.

I didn’t solo just for fun, I also collected data for my dungeon site. You can’t really filter who joins you from LFG, so yeah, random people.

Perhaps you don’t know the boss but it’s pretty brutal if you don’t know what you are trying. I didn’t have a timer so numbers can be bit off but rest of the team wiped before we even got the shield off. And I was left with pretty low health for trying to revive them. I didn’t really see what they typed on chat, but they wanted me dead.

Sorry for getting spammy, want to give each response it’s due.

Part of my problem is that it’s hard to wipe on Mai that fast unless you’re in the original story version or a higher level fractal (generally it’s the cannons that wipe a group that doesn’t know what it’s doing).

Maybe the trick is in ‘free daily’. That’s still presuming that there are people looking for literally free and had never done the fight before and were irked it was free, but then, even as you say, the last part doesn’t make any sense.

Them kicking the host and the only person that lived won’t keep them alive and won’t let them win the fight don’t match any model of player behavior I can conceive of, at least not if that’s all there was to the story. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Stories that don’t make sense that just happen to prove a chosen argumentative point on the part of the teller deserve skepticism.

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

It’s too ludicrously 1-sided. At the very least the safest bet in the world is that if we could dig up the other 4 players their versions of what happened would be substantially different.

The whole thing, to be frank though, is just too convenient.

He just solo-ground for fun, and then just when he got to mai grabbed some random people, and then they just failed immediately, and then they kicked him for ‘not talking enough’.

Most of the individual pieces work, but taken together it’s pretty hard to swallow (and that’s taking the 15 secs/30 secs hyperbole out of it)

If you’re going to try to call into question his character, goodwill, and credibility, keep in mind he’s uploaded numerous videos and is the person who maintains this extremely comprehensive dungeon guide site with strategy breakdowns for organized, melee, and ranged/PuG tactics for most encounters.

Unlike me, Harper, or some of the other people here, he’s the last one of us here that you want to blindly victim blame.

A questionable story is a questionable story, and personal prejudice is personal prejudice.

I still remember how much it was my kitten bosses fault the first time I got fired, and I totally didn’t do anything wrong.

~~~

I don’t care if it’s the President. A story that very conveniently proves your point AND a story that makes 4 other people act in a bizarrely assholish way (in his version) that goes against most logic or most of our experiences with player activity is worth looking at with askance.

Funnily, I don’t really have many questions about the solo part (except as it being a part of the larger story), his descriptions of these guys immediately failing and almost as immediately kicking him (presumably the guy that DIDN’T fail) out of the group just don’t parse.

I’d put money down that any of those other 4 guys would describe the situation exceptionally differently.

Seera.5916:

But you’ll never get rid of the meta.

And those who follow the meta and want to use the meta don’t want to force everyone else to use the meta. They just want those who don’t follow and use the meta to not join their groups when they are looking to run with other meta following people.

The people who value speed will always want the fastest way to get through the content. The mathematically inclined members of this group will sit down and run through the calculations to figure out what will generate the fastest times. What they figure out becomes the meta.

No matter what changes are done, there will always be an optimal gear and build set up for doing the content as fast as possible. And that gear and build set up will be what becomes the meta.

And it will always typically cater to a small group of the players. Because like you said, speed isn’t everything.

Again, it’s not a real meta. It’s a preference we’re calling meta. By calling it meta we’re giving it force it shouldn’t have.

We’re pretty far in the weeds on this discussion, and we’ve worked out a reasonable agreement on the hows and whys of the zerk speedrun style, but we’re not the problem.

The problem is the guy that sees ‘meta talk’ or reads a guide on Dulfy for how to do ‘meta dungeon runs’ for his class, and will end up taking it as ‘you have to do it this way or else you suck’.

All the filtering/profiling talk is exactly to that point, the idea that if you don’t run meta you’re a ‘bad’… and it’s not just an attitude limited to semicasual followers, there’s a TON of folks in this very thread that aggressively espouse that idea.

That idea is senseless and destructive and the dodgy designation of the ‘meta’ is a large factor in that.

~~

Of course there’s some tilting at windmills going on here, there’s 0 chance this is going to change, but it’s worth arguing for

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Windsagio.1340:

Wethospu.6437:

I still remember soloing fractals up to Mai Trin, practicing it a bit and then putting a lfg so 4 random guys could get a reward for free. No restrictions, no requirements.

Only to have them faceplant in about 30 seconds and me getting kicked in about 15 seconds without any warning because they wanted to retry. And when I asked why would they kick me and destroy the instance when I had spend hours soloing it I get answered “because you didn’t talk to us”. Yeah sure, I will do some casual chit chat when I’m on low health and fighting to survive.

So based on this, I rather keep “elitist” requirements to weed out “non-toxic”, “relaxed” and “respectful” people like these.

I’m sorry, that story just doesn’t parse.

Oh? Why not?

It’s too ludicrously 1-sided. At the very least the safest bet in the world is that if we could dig up the other 4 players their versions of what happened would be substantially different.

The whole thing, to be frank though, is just too convenient.

He just solo-ground for fun, and then just when he got to mai grabbed some random people, and then they just failed immediately, and then they kicked him for ‘not talking enough’.

Most of the individual pieces work, but taken together it’s pretty hard to swallow (and that’s taking the 15 secs/30 secs hyperbole out of it)

Seera.5916:

Windsagio.1340:

@People making more time computations;

I can’t tell you how to have fun. If you enjoy the maximizing and hate waste that much more power to you.

For myself, and I’m sure for others, the difference between 18 and 8 minutes doesn’t matter much. If I have 45 minutes to play, I might do a dungeon and go play in silverwastes for a bit, I can get basic enjoyment out of whaatever.

If I have a goal in a dungeon (say a collection completion) and am really tired of grinding it, hey the pvp track is pretty efficient, let’s go do that for a bit!

You guys REALLY need to understand that many people don’t care about the way you play, just like people who don’t care about speed runs need to understand that this can increase the fun for you.

It’s all optional. Every kittening thing and style in this game is optional.

~~~

Now I admit, when I read all the talk about time wasted! my first thought is ‘man people must not enjoy actually playing much, maybe they need to take a break’, but I’m going to presume it’s more that they become annoyed that they’re being inefficient. It’s still part of their fun then. It’s not part of my fun to stress about how I’m wasting time, and it’s not part of many people’s fun.

Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

The people who do have the strict time limits don’t tend to PUG. They’re in a guild or have a friends list of people to run with who all run the meta and run it fast.

The ones who post to the LFG are the ones who either gamble that they wait for the right group make up will be less than the time it would take to run with sub-optimal builds or have low patience/tolerance towards anything that makes the run go longer than it should but not enough people they know are up to dungeons at the time (or they don’t have enough to run with).

Meta is just the optimal gear and build. There will always be a meta. And it will always only be required by that small subset of players who strive to do things as fast as they possibly can. I don’t see why the meta being Zerker is so much more horrible than the meta being Celestial or any other stat combination.

Those who do not like the meta do not have to play it. The meta is completely optional for those who are not in the subset of trying to do things as fast as possible. They just need to join groups of other players who don’t want to run under all meta conditions or start their own group. Those wanting to run with an all meta group do this.

I’m of course excepting the rude members of both parties who join the groups that are opposite their view just to cause trouble (try to get the meta group to accept non-meta and the non-meta group to conform to the meta). Both extremes are wrong in their behavior, but should not be used as evidence as to why the meta is wrong. Because rude people will just find something else to be rude about.

garcialak.9215:

You said it your own post. It’s not enforcing anything, it’s optional. Make your own groups or don’t join the ones advertised as meta.

Except meta tends to gain the force of ‘required’, which is the problem and the origin of this thread.

This isn’t meta, this is ‘preferred for one version of running’.

It’s not even optimal, unless your primary consideration is speed.

Of course I"m not fooling myself, speed is important to a lot of people, but it’s also not the only thing.

~~~

Still, I think the POV shift would help.

Black Frog.9274:

so what you’re asking for is a new release to purchase

Passive-aggressively.

@People making more time computations;

I can’t tell you how to have fun. If you enjoy the maximizing and hate waste that much more power to you.

For myself, and I’m sure for others, the difference between 18 and 8 minutes doesn’t matter much. If I have 45 minutes to play, I might do a dungeon and go play in silverwastes for a bit, I can get basic enjoyment out of whaatever.

If I have a goal in a dungeon (say a collection completion) and am really tired of grinding it, hey the pvp track is pretty efficient, let’s go do that for a bit!

You guys REALLY need to understand that many people don’t care about the way you play, just like people who don’t care about speed runs need to understand that this can increase the fun for you.

It’s all optional. Every kittening thing and style in this game is optional.

~~~

Now I admit, when I read all the talk about time wasted! my first thought is ‘man people must not enjoy actually playing much, maybe they need to take a break’, but I’m going to presume it’s more that they become annoyed that they’re being inefficient. It’s still part of their fun then. It’s not part of my fun to stress about how I’m wasting time, and it’s not part of many people’s fun.

Which is why it’s a bad meta. It’s enforcing optional style that matches some players sense of fun on the entirety of the playing community.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.

Silly is a subjective word, and unless the gain is exactly zero I don’t think you get to be the sole authority and set the threshold for what is or isn’t trivial.

Back on point, though: we’re profiling. Asking for “zerker meta” is more likely to get us a player who knows the encounter, knows how to use combo fields, has gear specced for optimal DPS, has utilities and traits beneficial to the group (or at least a player with a few of these things).

I’m not even sure you can keep a serious face while telling me that a group of “CoE P2 all welcome” will finish in about the same time as “CoE P2 experienced please”, and even “CoE P2 meta zerker ping gear”.

And if it turns out that we did get a troll who joined without meeting our requirements in LFG, then we’d be justified in retaliation up to and including kicking him at the last boss because he was never legitimately a member of our group.

It’s the internet, of course I get to say :p

I think the profiling thing is spot on, except it’s not a great profiling tool, and for most runs you don’t need to profile… except people think they do. It’s this self-fulfilling and self-defeating act that people just go with, and it’s harmful.

The zerk meta is a classic false meta because it’s mainly there because we say it’s there. Pug dungeon runs aren’t competitive (which drives pvp and raiding metas) and the content isn’t so hard that meta builds are even remotely required.

“The zerk meta is a classic false meta” – this is a blatant lie.

I’ve been recently trying to finish my CM collection ( done yesterday) and have been doing CM for quite a bit.

Did P3 yesterday with a “no requirements, no stress, no zerker” group just to see what it’s like.

It too 18 minutes for a p3 of CM. Good players will know what that means.

Nobody went afk and the lowest AP was 7 k or something which meant people at least weren’t new to the game.

Had I gone with a meta full zerker PUG group we’d have been done in less than 9 minutes.

That’s 9 minutes of my life wasted because people want to “play how I want”.

So no – it’s not a made up concept.
An average of 8 minutes extra per dungeon run if you do 5-6 dungeons does matter. You could watch a TV show in the extra time it will take because of non-meta people.

No, the term ‘meta’ has just been warped by people that are desperately trying to make it something it’s not.

There are no completion gear requirements for these dungeons, and there’s no competitive reactive element. Either of those could lead to the creation of a true meta.

In most games the meta refers to something competitive, and it can easily be put into 2 grand categories:
1) This style maximizes my chance of winning.
2) This is something I have to be aware of or else I can get destroyed by it.

To clarify the second example, let’s step out of GW for a second; If you play Netrunner, a Jinteki trap deck isn’t one of the top ‘meta’ decks in the first sense. It’s good, but not as good as a NBN astroscript or a RP deck. It’s part of the meta because if you aren’t aware of the deck and how it works, you’re most likely gonna lose.

ahem

Anyways, neither of those categories apply to GW2 PVE. You can optimize to various degrees if you everyone’s on the same page and knows what they’re diong, but it’s not required to compete and it’s not required to ‘not lose’.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

It’s not a good case because you’re replying to one problem with a worse problem :P

This “worse problem” (that there has been and always will be meta, elitism, and exclusion in this game) has always been in the game and is not a “reply” to anything or any problem.

It’s simply “baggage” that any solution change to the current “problem” status quo must overcome in a better way than the status quo already does right now.

If anything, it’s just a shift from naivety and idealism back to reality.

Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.

So then, it ends up being exclusion for exclusion, which you’re absolutely embracing.

And therein lies the problem. Maybe we can’t fix human nature, but it’s worth at least trying.

Did I not post a time calculation a few pages ago pointing out that it’s not the case of " so little to gain" ? I’m sure 15 minutes per day are nothing to you but they’re a lot to me.

Also excluding players that aren’t like me from runs I like to do is not wrong in itself. If they want to run with me or people like me they should make themselves like me. If they don’t want that they can steer clear and run with whomever they want.

I read the calculation I didn’t respond because it’s hard to say this, but if you wanna pin it down. that reasoning is the post-hoc thing I mentioned. The calculation was really clearly made to justifiy the position you already had decided was right.

You’ll never see the great pumpkin at this rate!

Wethospu.6437:

I still remember soloing fractals up to Mai Trin, practicing it a bit and then putting a lfg so 4 random guys could get a reward for free. No restrictions, no requirements.

Only to have them faceplant in about 30 seconds and me getting kicked in about 15 seconds without any warning because they wanted to retry. And when I asked why would they kick me and destroy the instance when I had spend hours soloing it I get answered “because you didn’t talk to us”. Yeah sure, I will do some casual chit chat when I’m on low health and fighting to survive.

So based on this, I rather keep “elitist” requirements to weed out “non-toxic”, “relaxed” and “respectful” people like these.

I’m sorry, that story just doesn’t parse.

For some reason the 35 thousand bloodstone dust makes me laugh ><

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.

Silly is a subjective word, and unless the gain is exactly zero I don’t think you get to be the sole authority and set the threshold for what is or isn’t trivial.

Back on point, though: we’re profiling. Asking for “zerker meta” is more likely to get us a player who knows the encounter, knows how to use combo fields, has gear specced for optimal DPS, has utilities and traits beneficial to the group (or at least a player with a few of these things).

I’m not even sure you can keep a serious face while telling me that a group of “CoE P2 all welcome” will finish in about the same time as “CoE P2 experienced please”, and even “CoE P2 meta zerker ping gear”.

And if it turns out that we did get a troll who joined without meeting our requirements in LFG, then we’d be justified in retaliation up to and including kicking him at the last boss because he was never legitimately a member of our group.

It’s the internet, of course I get to say :p

I think the profiling thing is spot on, except it’s not a great profiling tool, and for most runs you don’t need to profile… except people think they do. It’s this self-fulfilling and self-defeating act that people just go with, and it’s harmful.

The zerk meta is a classic false meta because it’s mainly there because we say it’s there. Pug dungeon runs aren’t competitive (which drives pvp and raiding metas) and the content isn’t so hard that meta builds are even remotely required.

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

It’s not a good case because you’re replying to one problem with a worse problem :P

This “worse problem” (that there has been and always will be meta, elitism, and exclusion in this game) has always been in the game and is not a “reply” to anything or any problem.

It’s simply “baggage” that any solution change to the current “problem” status quo must overcome in a better way than the status quo already does right now.

If anything, it’s just a shift from naivety and idealism back to reality.

Except, the meta in this case is silly. There’s so little gain in most cases that it’s at best flat.

So then, it ends up being exclusion for exclusion, which you’re absolutely embracing.

And therein lies the problem. Maybe we can’t fix human nature, but it’s worth at least trying.

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

2) Umm, kitten . Don’t think anyones threatennig you (as a group especially), and you’re honestly not making a good case, especially compared to your first point.

This was a reference to Leo’s “sit the kitten down and embrace a hard trinity” to spoj (which you conveniently ignored while calling out me for personal attacks—aside from my directness, I don’t see where I said something more objectionable than that).

Still, attitude aside, I’d describe point 2 as ‘technically right but unfortunate’. The eagerness with which an exclusionary attitude is embraced is the real problem behind the ‘zerker meta’, but you’re right— people would just find something else.

If what I said is “technically right” I’m not sure why it wasn’t a good case then. I’m honestly not all that elitist in game myself, but I fully respect and defend the right of any group to filter as much as they want (or feel they need) for whatever they want.

It’s not a good case because you’re replying to one problem with a worse problem :P

More referring to the personal attacks on Leo, but still;

on those points:

1) It’s still annoying, especially if there’s a suspicion (true or false) that it’s undeserved elitism.

2) Umm, kitten . Don’t think anyones threatennig you (as a group especially), and you’re honestly not making a good case, especially compared to your first point.

Still, attitude aside, I’d describe point 2 as ‘technically right but unfortunate’. The eagerness with which an exclusionary attitude is embraced is the real problem behind the ‘zerker meta’, but you’re right— people would just find something else.

Being pretty consistently abusive there, Dave <>

Deli.1302:

1-2 years.

heh, good luck with that.

spoj.9672:

Please dont make things up. There is no forcing of our ideals on others. The exception is a few bad apples. But it seems it happens a lot more coming from other players saying were not allowed to have fun by speedrunning. The hypocrisy is pretty hilarious dont you think?

I’m not saying theres any intent to do so, but there is a cultural impact to that effect.

Also, there’s plenty of the former anyways, plenty of discussion about the bads who don’t play right. In fact there’s been a ton of asides in both of these discussions that decay into who the actual “Bads” are, the zerk or the nonzerk faction.

I think the problem for you more is most people don’t ‘get’ speed runs for the fun of it and don’t believe it happens very much. One of the big problem groups in this game are the ‘joblike grinders’. They’re the ones that yell at you if you kill out of order or rant about how someone else (never them) playing wrong made them die or lose efficiency.

Everybody’s run into these guys, an they tend to spill over into general play.

There’s a lot of them in dungeons, and I’d bet for most of us, they’re the people we run into the most when they carry on about the meta, and those are usually the guys that are getting people mad (and set up the OP).

My problem is that they have power that people believe they’re right, and that it matters… And honestly, that’s where I have some issues with the people in your position. I remember when the first version of your guide came out, it had some serious issues as a gameplay guide in that it wasn’t a necro guide, it was a necro guide for playing in the speedrun zerker style presented as a general necro guide. There’s an implicaton (probably unintentional) that the guide is the only right way to play, although the first version was so tunnelvision that it didn’t even mention some of the necro weapons at all.

That kind of thing filters down to the job/grinders and the more aggro players and wreaks havoc. I’m sure that wasn’t the intent of yours (and other people that have written similar guide), but that certainly was a major effect.

~~~

I guess the tl;dr for me would be:

It’s not ultimately a question of the efficiency of zerk versus other styles, it’s that the very concept of a meta in noncompetitive content that doesn’t demand it is deeply damaging to the culture and play of the game.

The problem is impressing 1 persons fun as someone elses’ absolute necessity.

There was a comment in the other thread about how you can sometimes ‘get away with’ not being meta in fractals.

That’s the attitude that the culture of the zerker meta enforces, and it’s enforcing a playstyle that plenty of people don’t find fun.

‘Course that doesn’t mean people can’t define their groups any way they want, of course they can. A lot of it seems to be driven by hyperbole about the differences and a ‘joblike’ mindset though, and that’s destructive.

Wow that went dark

Grump.7069:

I can understand the doubts about CU, but hey they only started on the basics of their engine and design, it’s far from finished on how they want the final gameplay, the pre-alpha is still in principle development mode. The fact they’re letting donators in to check how things go, shows they wanna be open and willing to listen to those players up to a certain point. Are the CSE votes a hype? yes. It’s for MJ and his colleagues to justify the votes they’re getting now. If they screw up with the final alpha version and the beta version, they deserve to lose their lead next year.
But the openess they’re showing i haven’t seen yet by other games in development by other studios. But even then it can’t truely be compared because unlike CU, in most other games in design people haven’t put in money. Which the donators have for CU and MJ’s ideas for the game.

Also saying that CU is for pure PvP players is still in doubt by my vision. The PvP MJ is envisioning in his game is more the blob vs blob you see in GW2, instead of what happens in sPvP. Except it’ll be less aoe based than WvW.
So not sure that CU will be the game for hardcore PvPers who wanna stroke their kitten by being better in smallscale combat.

If we want to be frank about CU, I’d never ever ever ever trust a kickstarter MMO to come out, at least not within 5 years of it’s funding campaign. It’s great getting a bunch of people who you have no responsibility to to pony up the funding for your paycheck up front while you work on a dream game… but it’s not a great look for reasonably completed projects.

DaveGan.8065:

Star Ace.5207:

In short, stop calling “bad” that with which you disagree with.

The only time these players will hear “bad” from most of us is when they join our groups without meeting/reading the requirements, or when someone asks about optimal builds/gear in map chat and they chime in with claims that what they have is close enough to zerker (or that zerker is too squishy/risky).

It’s honestly a two-way street. Most of us filthy toxic communist kitten elitists simply want to be left to ourselves (although we will welcome others who are like us or want to become like us), and will only lash back if provoked in our “own territory”.

Plenty of “Bads” calling in this thread though, and neither dungeons nor the forums are ‘your own territory’. Presuming you mean people joining zerk labeled pugs when not zerk, they’re slightly more irrational than the people that feel the need to set up zerk pugs :p

anabasis.7346:

Don’t you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?

How am I supposed to know what that feels like?!

spoj.9672:

I have good reason to argue against changes demanded by ignorance. Hard roles and traditional trinity is what many people want. I absolutely dont want the game to be ruined when anet listens to those people. Especially when what they are asking for wont actually make them any happier. It will probably make them less happy due to even more exclusion, elitism and new meta requirements etc.

And i dont play that actively anymore. But when i do log on I quite often pug a few paths.

Anet won’t listen to them though, they know their numbers and they know that the people complaining are playing either way.

It could just be that the discussion gets so clogged with personalities, &ct so it’s hard to keep track of what’s what.

Picked you out btw because your post was directly above mine :p

Gotta go back though; speed runners aren’t the issue, the issue is random pug advertisements.

In not-optimized-even-if-geared-zerk groups the whole meta discussion is silly, it simply doesn’t matter in a meaningful way.

The funny thing is that most of the people arguing so strong on behalf of the meta are people like Spoj, who I can’t imagine spends a ton of time doing random pugs anyways.