Guild Wars 2

Spoj The Second.7680:

You are just seeing it as destructive because you are on the other side. You should be a bit more open minded. There are a lot of positives to the meta. You are just refusing to acknowledge them because you cant accept the negatives. Although the negatives can be worked around as has been demonstrated. :P

Honestly, a lot of it is just the semantics, that’s why I forked the thread.

In actual practice I think Anet is doing the absolute best things they can to resolve the meta problem, and I have no complaints, but every time I see somebody advert a ‘meta’ thread my inner word-nerd cries out in anguish.

People always think videos that happen to agree with them are OH SO CLEVER!

Hint: It’s because you agree with them :p

@Spoj;

Yes it’s everyone else, not the people who describe the delicious tears and make snarky youtube videos aren’t the people poisoning the well, it’s the people they like to make fun of :p

Edit: Man maybe Dave was right, it really is a group identity thing. I feel like I’m facetanking a whole culture in here

I’d go with necro, you can wildly change your entire playstyle at higher levels with your trait choices, so it’s always easier to keep fresh.

You can play thieves differently, but not nearly to the degree of ‘maximum death shroud’ vs ‘minion master’ vs ‘max conditions’.

Veydar.5017:

Okay, so this entire thread is more about semantics than anything else? I mean we just had a thread with what feels like 1000 pages revolving around “the meta”, it feels a bit pointless to criticize the choice of wording after 2 years of Guild Wars 2.
The issues within the community will always be there, whether you call it “meta” or “zerk way” or “fluffy puffs” isn’t really relevant. I am sure 95% of the people only have a very vague idea of the word “meta” and only care about what it actually means in the GW2 lingo.

Essentially yeah it’s about semantics

You know how it is, semantics are important to more people than just me, and they do have a meaningful effect. Nobody took part in the discussion unwillingly :p

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

The entire thing is that we’re left with partially informed people thinking you have to play in reference to ‘meta’ because in just about every real use of the word that’s how it works.

Ignorance is not an excuse. It’s not our fault that some people are misinformed.

‘Our’. What does group identity have to do with anything? ><

Meaning, the non-uninformed people will not take responsibility or accountability for the failures of the uninformed people for being uninformed.

Please address my first post.

• How is it (objectively) destructive?

• How are players limited other than how they choose to feel limited?

1) It discourages people from playing the content. This is pretty straightforward, I think. In the past when the ‘meta’ was demanded more than it is now this was more of a problem, but the core cause is still there. If you make people think they have to play a particular way to do content (and to people that play other styles of game, the ‘meta’ has a lot of force), some of them just won’t do it.

This does hurt serious dungeon people too, if more people did 5m content, Anet would still be developing for it.

2) Some dungeons it takes a long time to get a group for anyways, and because people filter via meta, it makes them self-exclude from the other side. This actually ties into point 1. A fragmented, mutually-exclusive community isn’t a healthy one.

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

In the ongoing discussion of the “PVE Meta” in GW2 there’s some confusion on this, so I figured I’d do a public service and lay it all out.

In the widest sense, ‘metaplay’ is everything you do that isn’t your actual second-to-second or minute-to-minute gameplay.

Games have a wide variety in the prevalence of their metaplay. CCG’s and LCG’s are mostly metaplay, to take the extreme example of hearthstone, your deck construction is the primary thing, the actual gameplay is fairly mechanical.

In comparison, FPS’ have very very little metaplay, they rarely get past some very basic class and loadout.

In the case of GW2, metaplay is general class/build/gear/skill loadouts, and can substantially change the nature of your active play.

Now here’s the tricky part; metaplay and a ‘Metagame’ are actually pretty different.

A Meta*game* is an additional level to competitive gameplay where you’re using metaplay considerations to significantly alter your chances of success.

A classic example of playing the Metagame is counterpicking in a Fighting game. You’re using a non-gameplay consideration to increase your chance of success.

GW2 PvP is full of Metagame considerations, in order to be successful you’re greatly helped by doing a specific build, and if you don’t do that build you need to be aware of how that build works.

GW2 PvE doesn’t really have a Metagame, no build or setup is even remotely required for success and there isn’t any real competitive element to drive the meta. It does have a style that the community prefers (due to speed), but that really can’t raise to the dignity of ‘the Meta’, it’s entirely optional for completing all content.

~~~~
~~~~

TL;DR:
The Metagame is driven by success requirements or competition.
For the Metagame to be a consideration it needs to be just about required for success.
GW2 simply does not have the difficulty or competition in PvE to support a true Metagame.

“The Community’s preferred playstyle” isn’t ‘meta’, it’s a preference.

“The Metagame is driven by success requirements or competition.”

Me and a good portion of the community consider obtaining good rewards fast success.
No – not completing the dungeon or content. Completing it within a time frame that makes this highly profitable.

Since this is what we consider success the term applies here since without this “meta” we cannot achieve the desired objective and thus fail.

Finishing content is not every person’s idea of succeeding.

But the meta has to be pretty solid. "Some people feel this is a goal and some people think that is a goal, and this is required for this groups goals but not for other groups goals’ is kind of wishywashy. In PVP if you take a non-meta team vs a meta team, there’s no way to say ‘I didn’t lose the game!’ at least not a valid one that won’t get you mocked as a sore loser. That is simply not the case in PvE, where there’s a wide range of expectations beyond the baseline of ‘did I complete the content?’

In fact, I’m trying to keep it that way because I don’t want to belittle you guys’ style of playing or call it invalid.

DaveGan.8065:

Windsagio.1340:

The entire thing is that we’re left with partially informed people thinking you have to play in reference to ‘meta’ because in just about every real use of the word that’s how it works.

Ignorance is not an excuse. It’s not our fault that some people are misinformed.

‘Our’. What does group identity have to do with anything? ><

Guardian is by far the easiest to play, but there are a TON of them right now if that’s an issue for you.

Elementalist is probably my go-to-suggestion though, they’re both good and in demand and have a lot of dynamic stuff to do in their fighting. Engineers are similar but you don’t really get into the meat of the class for quite a while.

Mesmers, be warned they’re another ‘hard to get going’ class. There are a few talents and skills that are almost necessary to make the class really sing, and you don’t get them until pretty late. On the flip side, you’re going to learn a lot of stuff in the meantime, you really have to play the game early on (as compared to guardian who can kind of punt everything)

I mained a ranger for a long time, I’d kind of stay away from it. Some of the things are cool, but the pets are a huge PITA, and all the rangers I know end up getting so annoyed at them :p

Just call it a speed run, thing called.

The entire thing is that we’re left with partially informed people thinking you have to play in reference to ‘meta’ because in just about every real use of the word that’s how it works.

It’s really kind of a language purity thing ultimately though, it sure looks like the word was co-opted from the usage in PVP, but it loses descriptive power when it’s misused.

Shpongle.6025:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Think Tank Predictions For 2015

http://i.massively.joystiq.com/2014/12/18/the-think-tank-mmo-industry-predictions-for-2015/

Apparently the media thinks your going to at least announce a major expansion; the challenge as been set!

mounts? do they even play gw2? lol

It’s massively, they’re good at saying stupid things forumgoers claim to want.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Windsagio.1340:

Lifestealer: Post-hoc;

I don’t know why the conception of the pve meta is so important to you, it’s not a good source of validation.

Another question is, “Why it is so important to you to establish there isn’t one?”

Because I’m right, kitten!

Joking aside, the attempts to impose a meta have a destructive effect on the game’s culture and limits players in ways that just aren’t productive.

Lifestealer: Post-hoc;

I don’t know why the conception of the pve meta is so important to you, it’s not a good source of validation.

Cuddy.6247:

Windsagio.1340:

GW2 PvE doesn’t really have a Metagame, no build or setup is even remotely required for success

GW2 PvE doesn’t have a very specific metagame but it certainly is there. Metagame isn’t restricted to just competitive PvP, it can also encompass the competitive obligation of functional performance. Many builds/classes/gear are so sub-optimal for Fractals, megabosses like Tequatl or Triple Worm or even the newest Living Story layouts that it’s moving in a direction where the “no metagame” mentality completely loses merit.

While you could certainly argue all of these things are optional, defaulting their status quo of metagame material, where is the line drawn? And, more importantly, what authority do you have to say where the line should be drawn? To save you the trouble, you don’t have any authority. Unfortunately, you are not the arbiter of the metagame. You do not have the authority to say whether content must be played via metagame or whether it’s overzealous.

Spoj is completely right in saying that your conclusion is based on opinionated premises, I for one put no stock in your sole opinion.

I don’t really expect an answer, I don’t want to be bored by a diatribe of nothing.

Up to at least the mid-late ‘30s, most groups simply don’t ask you about meta. I know (because I do sometimes ask privately, or have been since I got into these discussions) that a fair number of the players that play at those levels don’t play ‘meta’, and it’s just fine. Nobody asks, nobody says “AHA YOU DIDN’T TAKE ENOUGH DAMAGE”, none of that. They expect, rightly, that if you are joining a mid-high level fractal, you know what you’re doing and can complete that fractal… and it always works out, I’ve never had a fractal over 20 fail (that I remember). Sometimes they fail at low levels, but never at the higher ones.

About ‘authority’, eeh, All I can do is try to make the most compelling case I can and go with that.

insanemaniac.2456:

Windsagio.1340:

Spoj The Second.7680:

If you dont mind losing to decent players then you can ignore it. You can simply win against other players and still feel successful. Dont underestimate the power of ignorance.

Your whole arguement is based on your own opinion. Thats all im saying. I believe PvE can be defined as having a meta. You believe it cant. But your posts imply that what you are saying is a fact.

The PvP meta is more prevalent than you seem to think. It’s hard to do a whole night of hotjoin without running into a Meta or edge-Meta (read:PU mesmer) build.

Otherwise, eeh, that’s not an argument.

go lfg pug ac for a week and tell me every single group you joined at random was completely clueless of how to do the dungeon. thats essentially what you are claiming doesnt happen in hotjoins.

Every single dungeon I run is pug and 95% of them (give or take) don’t give a kitten about the “meta” and do just fine anyways.

That’s the starting position of all my arguments. The purported ‘meta’ doesn’t have any meaningful impact on most of the groups I enter, and they complete the content just fine. It’s simply not required and many knowledgable players don’t care.

Is this a parody of the ‘fewer clicks’ threads?

I hope it is, that’d be rad.

darkace.8925:

Aidan Savage.2078:

As for wow, it only has players because of E-Stockholme Syndrome. They keep players by constantly putting out expansions you have to pay for, and the “customers” keep buying.

So when a player buys a WoW expansion they’re doing so because they’ve been psychologically manipulated and/or damaged by an evil corporation, but when a player logs into GW2 for a LS update or drops money in the cash shop for an infinite gathering tool they’re so because they’re some sort of enlightened free-thinker? Nice double standard.

That whole discussion is weird, but ‘free’ vs. ‘buy’ makes those REALLY different (which also applies to subscriptions really).

Spoj The Second.7680:

If you dont mind losing to decent players then you can ignore it. You can simply win against other players and still feel successful. Dont underestimate the power of ignorance.

Your whole arguement is based on your own opinion. Thats all im saying. I believe PvE can be defined as having a meta. You believe it cant. But your posts imply that what you are saying is a fact.

The PvP meta is more prevalent than you seem to think. It’s hard to do a whole night of hotjoin without running into a Meta or edge-Meta (read:PU mesmer) build.

Otherwise, eeh, that’s not an argument.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Exclusivity is not necessary for the metagame. Its that simple.

Well support that position. I think I’ve made a reasonable case above of the wheres and why’s of the thing, how is that element not important?

Although maybe it’s my use of the term ‘exclusivity’, which is a little vague. To put it another way: A core element of a true “Metagame” is that you can’t ignore it.

You can entirely ignore the GW2 PVE meta, never know about it, do every single bit of game content, and feel entirely successful. You can’t realistically ignore the PVP Meta, you’re going to have a very hard time.

Somebody needs to be given the talk about ‘metrics’ again.

Not only do they know what all the players want, they know what wants are backed by their actions, as compared to forum noise.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Windsagio.1340:

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Spoj The Second.7680:

The last point is just your opinion. There is a competative element. Its just not direct.

It also applies to a fairly small component of the population. Is there any place beyond the dungeon speedrun community where there’s a significant competitve element in PvE?

(Appearances aside, I’m always willing to be wrong)

The competitive speed clear scene is probably about the same size as the competitive pvp scene. and by “competitive pvp scene” i mean the guilds/teams who have a realistic shot at winning tournaments. Just like lowly hotjoiners adopt the builds of TCG or Abjured, pug zerkers adopt the builds of SC and DnT in pve.

I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison, in PvP, even if it’s hotjoin, the competitive aspect is always front-and-center, and someone coming in meta is going to most likely demolish you (if they know how to play it)^1.

Most people don’t even know that people compete in speed clears, and no competitive element is immediately visible in PvE.

^1 That’s actually another interesting tidbit that I didn’t really hit in the OP. Meta is pushed harder by it’s nature in head-to-head competition, because the person playing a properly tuned meta is going to just wreck the player that’s unaware of the meta, and likely make it impossible for that player to succeed at all. This simply isn’t the case in PvE. Me doing the dungeon faster than you or taking less damage or (insert any criteria here) won’t keep you from completing the dungeon.

I think you are being closed minded on what competition can mean. You can compete against yourself to constantly improve. You can compete against the clock to get your dungeons done before you run out of time. You can compete against others to see who can run it faster. You can compete to see if you can get a flawless and smooth run. You dont necessarily need a direct opponent to have competition.

But what hybrid said is a pretty good comparison. Most people just adopt the builds and strategies demonstrated in speed clears by the top guilds. And thats what forms the pug preferences. Call it the pug meta if you will. Its just the same as how your casual PvP player adopts builds and strategies from the top PvP teams. They are the top so it makes sense to learn and copy from them.

Part of the idea I’m trying to present though is that an aspect of the meta is that it’s required to function effectively. In the other uses you see for it, that’s an accurate description.

If you’re playing netrunner, even if you are running a non-meta deck, you have to know how to deal with the meta or you’re going to get just demolished by meta players.

Similarly, if you’re playing Mortal Kombat 2 competitively, if you’re not using Mileena or Jax, you’re going to lose and you deserve to lose.

I just can’t see how the pve content raises to that level of exclusivity for more than a tiny % of the players, and I’d strongly argue that that level of exclusivity is necessary for a legit Metagame element.

There’s a copying element as well, I’d agree, but I don’t feel it’s very well reasoned beyond ‘well the good players do it and it seems the fastest way to get rewards’.

nGumball.1283:

Seems like we are just ending with another ‘’OMG, THE GAME IS DYING’’ thread.
Good luck. I fancy such useless threads because of all the rubbish.

Best part of these threads are all the production and business development experts that turn up

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

Spoj The Second.7680:

The last point is just your opinion. There is a competative element. Its just not direct.

It also applies to a fairly small component of the population. Is there any place beyond the dungeon speedrun community where there’s a significant competitve element in PvE?

(Appearances aside, I’m always willing to be wrong)

The competitive speed clear scene is probably about the same size as the competitive pvp scene. and by “competitive pvp scene” i mean the guilds/teams who have a realistic shot at winning tournaments. Just like lowly hotjoiners adopt the builds of TCG or Abjured, pug zerkers adopt the builds of SC and DnT in pve.

I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison, in PvP, even if it’s hotjoin, the competitive aspect is always front-and-center, and someone coming in meta is going to most likely demolish you (if they know how to play it)^1.

Most people don’t even know that people compete in speed clears, and no competitive element is immediately visible in PvE.

^1 That’s actually another interesting tidbit that I didn’t really hit in the OP. Meta is pushed harder by it’s nature in head-to-head competition, because the person playing a properly tuned meta is going to just wreck the player that’s unaware of the meta, and likely make it impossible for that player to succeed at all. This simply isn’t the case in PvE. Me doing the dungeon faster than you or taking less damage or (insert any criteria here) won’t keep you from completing the dungeon.

pdavis.8031:

That actually makes sense. “Preferred playstlye” isn’t by definition “meta” However in the general consensus using the term “meta” to refer to what the preferred style of play is has become “meta”.

So it’s “meta” to use the term “meta” when talking about the “meta”….

Mind = Blown

You can’t give up yet, to my count we’re only up to the third level of meta!

Spoj The Second.7680:

The last point is just your opinion. There is a competative element. Its just not direct.

It also applies to a fairly small component of the population. Is there any place beyond the dungeon speedrun community where there’s a significant competitve element in PvE?

(Appearances aside, I’m always willing to be wrong)

In the ongoing discussion of the “PVE Meta” in GW2 there’s some confusion on this, so I figured I’d do a public service and lay it all out.

In the widest sense, ‘metaplay’ is everything you do that isn’t your actual second-to-second or minute-to-minute gameplay.

Games have a wide variety in the prevalence of their metaplay. CCG’s and LCG’s are mostly metaplay, to take the extreme example of hearthstone, your deck construction is the primary thing, the actual gameplay is fairly mechanical.

In comparison, FPS’ have very very little metaplay, they rarely get past some very basic class and loadout.

In the case of GW2, metaplay is general class/build/gear/skill loadouts, and can substantially change the nature of your active play.

Now here’s the tricky part; metaplay and a ‘Metagame’ are actually pretty different.

A Meta*game* is an additional level to competitive gameplay where you’re using metaplay considerations to significantly alter your chances of success.

A classic example of playing the Metagame is counterpicking in a Fighting game. You’re using a non-gameplay consideration to increase your chance of success.

GW2 PvP is full of Metagame considerations, in order to be successful you’re greatly helped by doing a specific build, and if you don’t do that build you need to be aware of how that build works.

GW2 PvE doesn’t really have a Metagame, no build or setup is even remotely required for success and there isn’t any real competitive element to drive the meta. It does have a style that the community prefers (due to speed), but that really can’t raise to the dignity of ‘the Meta’, it’s entirely optional for completing all content.

~~~~
~~~~

TL;DR:
The Metagame is driven by success requirements or competition.
For the Metagame to be a consideration it needs to be just about required for success.
GW2 simply does not have the difficulty or competition in PvE to support a true Metagame.

“The Community’s preferred playstyle” isn’t ‘meta’, it’s a preference.

There’s no reasonable expectation that any number of users will get several thousand bags and open them all at once.

I think I finally fold. You guys consistently declaring “there will always be a meta!” when you clearly don’t even know what a meta entails has gotten to me.

Still conflating ‘hard’ with ‘harder’, it seems like. The teragriff’s have attacks you really need to actively defend, you can’t really say that for… any single non-elite risen or centaur?

Harper.4173:

Windsagio.1340:

Thaddeus.4891:

Windsagio.1340:

Hybrid; the trick is that despite what people tell you, nobody is on 100% of the time, everyone makes mistakes.

The problem to me is that the slider is way off, so it’s far too low-risk for most people to play pure dps, even with relatively high error rates.

I’m fine with a person that’s say 95% on being able to run pure dps stats (although they need to fix balance between dps types still), but it should be extremely challenging for someone who’s say, 50% on to complete that content in pure dps stats, or else we end up in the situation we’re in now.

If we’re in a place where people look in askance at the person who gears zerker, but then someone says ‘no wait that guy’s awesome he can totally do it!’ and that guy helps the group’s speed, that’s a perfect scenario, as far as I’m concerned.

If the top-end groups are all in pure zerk, because all of the players are good enough to live, that’s great, but it should be a serious quesiton and consideration in mid-level groups and pugs.

But that’s how the game already is. People that can survive in full zerk play full zerk, but a lot of ppl can’t so they use a mix of piece. That’s not ideal, but even when you check guide on the meta, there is often a small portion explaining what you can do if you can’t survive in full zerk, like adding more knight gear or things like that.

I got ppl in my guild of all level of skills. Some go zerker, melee, meta. Other use meta trait with some knight or valkyrie gear, other use ranged weapons.

The slider is far off, that’s why we’re even talking about ‘meta’.

Zerk is far safer than it should be (in most content), which is why we have ‘meta pugs’ demanding zerk rather than knight.

So how is better? How is having a knight meta better than a zerk meta?

How is eating a portion of the damage better than avoiding all of it?

How is having pug runs take longer any fun or good for anyone?

Do you honestly believe people would love it if their 10 minutes pug run would take 20 and also include a few wipes?
Do you think this would make the content more enjoyable and people more likely to return and do it over?

Forget the word ‘meta’ for a second.

I would like all gear to be a decision and a question.

The decision for pure DPS gear could be “I am confident I can keep myself alive and in combat in this gear”. The question could be ""s this person good enough to not waste our time by constantly eating dirt?

The decision is “I value speed and/or seeing big numbers over anything else” and the question is “Is the speed difference big enough for me to want to keep someone out of this group?”

The first set is harder to decide, true, but it’s also more meaningful and puts the pressure on a different track.

~~~

I’m sure people would try to enforce a different ‘meta’, but that’s back to the basic mindset problem, and the fact that the highly skilled groups would still be able (in theory) to run these crazy speed runs in pure dps would mitigate the ‘meta’ pressure on the midtier.

Simple question for you then; Presuming you’re not a top 1% or even a top 50% player, do you think silverwastes content is easier, harder, or the same for people in glass melee?

@Hybrid; I really don’t have anything to say to that except ’you’re wrong’. You’re confusing a relatively lenient Margin of error in even the hardest content with no errors.

That’s more of a conceptual point though. Directly, the perfect people don’t matter. Saying they exist, they’re not the standard for the design, and they’re certainly not the standard for PUGs.

Harper.4173:

Read Carighan’s post above.

I did and I don’t agree with the point you’re referring to? “You can’t fool all the people all the time”

hybrid.5027:

Glassy gear is only safer because the content is so old that even bads have mastered it.

Remember when silverwastes came out and people were praising anet for release really challenging anti-berserker content? It wasn’t actually challenging or anti-berserker, it was simply that the bads hadn’t learned the enemy movesets and got dumpstered.

Man that was productive :p

Silverwastes is better anti-zerk content, it’s also free open-world content.

You’re having a basic misunderstanding about the intent though, it’s not to make zerk impossible, it’s to make it harder — to move the slider.

And they did move the slider, it’s a gradual process, they can’t just change it entirely overnight or else players will (rightly) lose their minds.

So now we have harder, more complex encounters with almost entirely base enemies (not things like dungeon pulls with 3+ elites) and setpiece boss encounters. Given that it’s non-veteran content mostly, it can’t be TOO hard. If they were still developing dungeons, we’d see that encounter style slipping into actual group content, that’s a different scenario.

Thaddeus.4891:

Windsagio.1340:

Hybrid; the trick is that despite what people tell you, nobody is on 100% of the time, everyone makes mistakes.

The problem to me is that the slider is way off, so it’s far too low-risk for most people to play pure dps, even with relatively high error rates.

I’m fine with a person that’s say 95% on being able to run pure dps stats (although they need to fix balance between dps types still), but it should be extremely challenging for someone who’s say, 50% on to complete that content in pure dps stats, or else we end up in the situation we’re in now.

If we’re in a place where people look in askance at the person who gears zerker, but then someone says ‘no wait that guy’s awesome he can totally do it!’ and that guy helps the group’s speed, that’s a perfect scenario, as far as I’m concerned.

If the top-end groups are all in pure zerk, because all of the players are good enough to live, that’s great, but it should be a serious quesiton and consideration in mid-level groups and pugs.

But that’s how the game already is. People that can survive in full zerk play full zerk, but a lot of ppl can’t so they use a mix of piece. That’s not ideal, but even when you check guide on the meta, there is often a small portion explaining what you can do if you can’t survive in full zerk, like adding more knight gear or things like that.

I got ppl in my guild of all level of skills. Some go zerker, melee, meta. Other use meta trait with some knight or valkyrie gear, other use ranged weapons.

The slider is far off, that’s why we’re even talking about ‘meta’.

Zerk is far safer than it should be (in most content), which is why we have ‘meta pugs’ demanding zerk rather than knight.

Hybrid; the trick is that despite what people tell you, nobody is on 100% of the time, everyone makes mistakes.

The problem to me is that the slider is way off, so it’s far too low-risk for most people to play pure dps, even with relatively high error rates.

I’m fine with a person that’s say 95% on being able to run pure dps stats (although they need to fix balance between dps types still), but it should be extremely challenging for someone who’s say, 50% on to complete that content in pure dps stats, or else we end up in the situation we’re in now.

If we’re in a place where people look in askance at the person who gears zerker, but then someone says ‘no wait that guy’s awesome he can totally do it!’ and that guy helps the group’s speed, that’s a perfect scenario, as far as I’m concerned.

If the top-end groups are all in pure zerk, because all of the players are good enough to live, that’s great, but it should be a serious quesiton and consideration in mid-level groups and pugs.

Harper.4173:

And how is it that in that situation the primary concern wouldn’t be damage?

It literally becomes : the most damage you can deal while alive. It’s still about the damage – because the damage determines how fast you clear – which is why it will always be the primary concern unless we don’t fight mobs/bosses anymore.

The answer to your question is this :

The small part of the players who do WvW and sPVP might accept it. Or might not – depending on their moods.
You see – if they want to go up against a difficult opponent they already have their PvP or WvW option of choice for that. So when they PVE they might do it just for the rewards – in which case making things more difficult for them might not be something they would like.

The rest of the players who do PVE only I assume would not like it. Why? Because it’s difficult.
If they wanted to get stomped on by good opponents they would have gone to WvW or sPVP already. The fact that they went and left or never went is indicative that they don’t really want to get worked too hard by their opponents.

A subset of the PVE community – the PVE for fast rewards crowd would hate it – I personally would.
The last thing I need is for my AC or CoF runs to now be the equivalent of an sPVP match. No thanks.

The bottom line is this : Video games fulfill a power fantasy – they give you the chance to be the hero. To win. To feel good about yourself.

If you take that away or make it too hard for players to obtain that feeling they’re going to be unhappy.

Example:

The new Call of Duty game – Advanced Warfare – uses a Skill based match making system where you’re put in games with people of the same skill level as yourself. This wasn’t such a big thing in previous games of the series.

The good and really good players in the community have expressed a dislike for this feature because they’re getting tired of having to constantly be challenged and try hard every game.

I get this too – every game almost you’re matched with people who are going all out try hard and if you want to perform you have to bring your best game.
Sometimes however you just want to blow steam off and pwn noobs and just win easily. You can hardly do that anymore and the community is upset.

Now I know GW2 is not COD but the idea remains the same. Most people like a challenge occasionally, some might even like to be frequently challenged but being made to try your best every time you play will burn people out fast.

I don’t know if it’s me or you at this point, but the point I’m trying to make is as follows;

As the game gets harder, survival becomes more of a factor in maintaining your damage. If you choose to be reductionist about it yes, it is ultimately about being able to do enough damage to kill the enemy.

However, and this is what I’m trying to get at, the approach changes massively depending on the style of the fight.

On your other bit, this goes into the ever-so-popular “Type A” point above. Some people want to feel powerful and want the easy (but purporatedly difficult) content for that ego boost. Getting actual matchmaking can be a deeply shocking experience for the big fish in the small pond ><

Otherwise, everything has a level. Encounters could be harder without being must play perfectly harder. They just can’t be so faceroll easy that protective elements don’t matter. We don’t get anywhere by bouncing from one absolute to another.

Wethospu.6437:

If they added content which required some kind of brain activity most people wouldn’t be able to complete it. They would cry rivers regardless of how innovative, creative and awesome the content was.

It’s all expectations, plenty of people complete plenty of content in harder games.

That’s a pretty condescending if not contemptuous attitude towards the mass of players. You should really give them more credit.

Seera.5916:

Windsagio.1340:

So for all my talk, I guess I"m not really proposing a solution except ‘tough it out’/‘make your own group’/‘you might be happier if you didn’t fixate on meta’ (the last one being a little controversial :p)

The last one isn’t controversial.

If you aren’t following the meta, you don’t need to fixate on the meta. Just know roughly what it is so you don’t join a group that’s obviously one.

The controversial part is ‘the meta probably isn’t helping your run as much as you think it is, live a little’ :p

Jerus.4350:

Ehh, kinda, a lot of the reason in general WvW you’re running beefier is arrow carts, pain and simple. The unavoidable damage that you simply have to withstand to make it through a choke point.

As you move to GvG type content you’ll find a lot more glass with mainly just your guard/wars bulking up as it’s their job to run into the other team and as you said more likely to catch that immob (control effects are much less of an issue if you run Meta with 2 guards rotating stab correctly). With that interesting thing… still a meta in WvW

The ugly thing is that I know what the ‘meta’ mongers would do, and it’s probably worse than the current situation. I’d suspect it would be a bunch of 3 dps + 2 hard support setups (especially a bunch of LFGuardian requests).

That’s (to my pov) sad thing. People are always looking and will always look for the magic trick, regardless of how important it is or not, and people will always try to exclude people that don’t go with the accepted magic trick.

Even if there were an impossible world, where against all possibility everything was entirely even, I think people would decide on something and filter based on that. It’s something basic in human nature, especially in MMO’s where people end up being so much ease-and-reward centric on old content.

In the current situation, from my observation, fewer and fewer people care about ‘meta’ optimization, I think that’s due to content accessibility. Any AI improvements would surely make the content harder and could well make the situation worse (in the short run certainly).

So for all my talk, I guess I"m not really proposing a solution except ‘tough it out’/‘make your own group’/‘you might be happier if you didn’t fixate on meta’ (the last one being a little controversial :p)

TPMN.1483:

Wind – the question seems off topic.

The meta would change accordingly to adapt – people adapt, animals adapt (to changing conditions) a new meta is born.

It is a bit off-topic, but it’s interesting to me

I guess it’s kind of relevant because someone above in essence said that people wouldn’t accept smarter AI’s, and it’s interesting to think if it’s true or not <>

~~~

To the point, we’re really just rambling now it seems like. We agree that for most content zerk is the most efficient, and we agree (I think) that anet is doing certain things to make other builds more attractive, but that basic calculation hasn’t changed.

TPMN.1483:

Windsagio.1340:

‘scuse my use of language, it’s vague sometimes. Specifically in this case, I mean that it would be a shift away from ‘the primary concern is damage’ setup we tend towards now. A more important part of maximising damage would be making sure players stayed up in semi-unpredictable situations.

~~~

If we can cut back on the combativeness for a second, there’s a legitimately interesting subquestion to this (deeply hypothetical) discussion, which is; “Would players accept behavior from something they know is an AI that they would from another player?”

Would they accept a computer controlled enemy with the skills, stats (including low for a monster health) and action patterns of a PU mesmer or (shudder the thought) a Carrion/Condition necro using corrupt boon and epidemic?

No problem:
PU Mesmer interrupts /shutdown with dazed (eg pistol whip thief, and many other skills I can think off)
Carrion/condi necro condi removal – eg purge flames (guard).

These are just two examples of using active defenses to solve this scenario – whilst being around the enemy.

In GW1 it was often players learnt from enemy mobs how to equip some fantastic skills as they mapped the skills/traits they used to be effective and carried them over into Hall of Heros or other zones in GW1.

Whatever you throw at the meta players they will get an answer for eventually using active defences. These are things players are currently doing in many zones apart from you may not be noticing it.

A good example is the champ wolf in CoE paths that has a lovely knockdown and leap which can maul pug groups if they don’t know how to handle it [eg dodge or other ]

The question wasn’t so much ‘could they deal with it?’ (they can in PvP and it would be easier in PvE because you can coordinate and share abilities better), but rather ‘would they accept it?’

Harper.4173:

Survival meta?
Wow.

It would still be a speed meta – the fastest you can go. Even if it requires 5 x tanky chars. It’s still go as fast as you can to get the loot as effectively as you can so in that sense it is and always will be a speed meta as long as it’s the fastest viable way.

‘scuse my use of language, it’s vague sometimes. Specifically in this case, I mean that it would be a shift away from ‘the primary concern is damage’ setup we tend towards now. A more important part of maximising damage would be making sure players stayed up in semi-unpredictable situations.

~~~

If we can cut back on the combativeness for a second, there’s a legitimately interesting subquestion to this (deeply hypothetical) discussion, which is; “Would players accept behavior from something they know is an AI that they would from another player?”

Would they accept a computer controlled enemy with the skills, stats (including low for a monster health) and action patterns of a PU mesmer or (shudder the thought) a Carrion/Condition necro using corrupt boon and epidemic?

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

In a perfect word they’d be as smart and act in a similar way to pvp opponents (and balanced appropriately). We’re not in a perfect world though, so we’re pretty limited in what our AI’s can do.

That would be a meta shift, but it would be an interesting one.

If only it were possible :p

I guess its time to explain how it would work…

1. Anet implements a radically new, realistic AI. Game gets 5x harder. Rewards are increased to compensate.
2. Elite dungeon guilds take a month or two to figure out optimal strategies. Begin speed running dungeons with relative ease again, and reap the increased rewards.
3. Pugs are unable to complete ACp1 in under an hour.
4. Rivers of tears flow.

Do you realize how insanely difficult it would be to do a truly reactive AI that matches the responsiveness of pvp players?

1) Is probably a compsci Ph.D at the very least.
2) If it were truly up to human reactions it would take more than a month. A new meta would emerge, I’d agree. It wouldnt’ be a speedrun meta though it would be a survival meta, similar to our current pvp with a greater emphasis on support (a major problem with the idea, even if it were possible, is that we’d go back to more groups demanding Guardians)
3) It depends on the target length. For it to work at all, enemies would not be able to have the kind of health numbers we’re used to.
4) No doubt. I agree on this, it would be a lot harder to loot-train them.

2) you realize the major reason PVP meta is bunkery is because it’s about holding nodes, IE “sit here and survive”. That’s not what dungeons are about in most cases, a few spots yes, but it’s generally about killing, not just not dying.

It’s more complex than that, specifically the WvW meta likes defense more too. In general survival is more valuable in unpredictable situations and where the enemy uses more control.

It would be more annoying for players at first, especially in the established game, but it’s all about setting expectations. That’s why it’s very risky to retroactively change the AI, players already have things they expect, and it’s all going to fall apart.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Lendruil.9061:

Whats the problem of field damage? It just would require to use well timed interrupts, maybe blasting some water fields or using invul-skills, but i don’t see how it would stop a skilled party from meleeing.

If you scroll up (it got cut out of the quote, oops) it was in response to an idea that bosses would run away if people tried to melee them. That would cause field damage (things like Lava Font, Acid Bomb, Smite, etc) to become much less effective.

Not sure what you’re thinking we’re talking about, are you thinking about players being in damage fields?… that’s not what it was about.

And no, a boss walking wouldn’t stop meleeing, it’d just have us cripple/chilling and moving with it, and likely avoiding weaponry that is reliant on a static enemy (Ele Staff, Guard Scepter, Engi EG, Maybe even Ele Scepter w/dragons tooth and what not?)

Worth repeating that in GW1 the enemies did run out of fields. We should get some GW1 purists in here about how that was better ><

Edit: last part is meant as a joke.

Some GW2 enemies run away too… and they’re more annoying than fun so… yeah…

Although anybody who’s ever done Balthezaar’s (sp) temple has screamed at NPC’s to do the same :p

Silliness aside, now is not the time to do that change. You don’t change the basic enemy behavior that dramatically this late in a game’s life.

If done from the start I think it would have been good, if I remember right they removed it due to performance issues.

Being passive-aggressive isn’t actually a great way to negotiate though.

Jerus.4350:

Lendruil.9061:

Whats the problem of field damage? It just would require to use well timed interrupts, maybe blasting some water fields or using invul-skills, but i don’t see how it would stop a skilled party from meleeing.

If you scroll up (it got cut out of the quote, oops) it was in response to an idea that bosses would run away if people tried to melee them. That would cause field damage (things like Lava Font, Acid Bomb, Smite, etc) to become much less effective.

Not sure what you’re thinking we’re talking about, are you thinking about players being in damage fields?… that’s not what it was about.

And no, a boss walking wouldn’t stop meleeing, it’d just have us cripple/chilling and moving with it, and likely avoiding weaponry that is reliant on a static enemy (Ele Staff, Guard Scepter, Engi EG, Maybe even Ele Scepter w/dragons tooth and what not?)

Worth repeating that in GW1 the enemies did run out of fields. We should get some GW1 purists in here about how that was better ><

Edit: last part is meant as a joke.

Fubsy.7865:

What really needs to stop is putting the word meta in quotes. Metagaming is a concept that has literally been a part of role playing games for decades. You can just call it the meta. It’s a thing.

This ‘meta’ isn’t a legit meta though, so I’m going to continue using my fingerquotes :p

hybrid.5027:

Glad you agree with me that your idea wouldn’t work.

I said in my post it wouldn’t work;

If only it were possible :p

Once it is possible it will revolutionize MMOs, but it’s many years out, if ever.

hybrid.5027:

Windsagio.1340:

In a perfect word they’d be as smart and act in a similar way to pvp opponents (and balanced appropriately). We’re not in a perfect world though, so we’re pretty limited in what our AI’s can do.

That would be a meta shift, but it would be an interesting one.

If only it were possible :p

I guess its time to explain how it would work…

1. Anet implements a radically new, realistic AI. Game gets 5x harder. Rewards are increased to compensate.
2. Elite dungeon guilds take a month or two to figure out optimal strategies. Begin speed running dungeons with relative ease again, and reap the increased rewards.
3. Pugs are unable to complete ACp1 in under an hour.
4. Rivers of tears flow.

Do you realize how insanely difficult it would be to do a truly reactive AI that matches the responsiveness of pvp players?

1) Is probably a compsci Ph.D at the very least.
2) If it were truly up to human reactions it would take more than a month. A new meta would emerge, I’d agree. It wouldnt’ be a speedrun meta though it would be a survival meta, similar to our current pvp with a greater emphasis on support (a major problem with the idea, even if it were possible, is that we’d go back to more groups demanding Guardians)
3) It depends on the target length. For it to work at all, enemies would not be able to have the kind of health numbers we’re used to.
4) No doubt. I agree on this, it would be a lot harder to loot-train them.

Healix.5819:

Windsagio.1340:

Now someone explain what makes the thresher teleport and that the stacks on it actually do ><

The teleport is RNG imo. People say not to AoE as some think the bubbles popping will cause it to heal or teleport, but popping those bubbles doesn’t seem to do anything. More recently, I’ve heard people blaming the teleport on using CC, so I purposely tried to stun, daze, knockback, immobilize and chill it, yet it had no effect.

I haven’t been able to get a decent solo on the thrasher since the first week, so I haven’t been able to reliably test it. On my last run however, I was the first person near it and it went invulnerable and teleported after I hit it once. I have also noticed that after it does a certain mechanic, like when it plants itself in the ground, it will teleport right after. For example, I’ve seen it teleport, plant itself, then teleport again.

The wiki says that destroying 2 bubbles within a close range of the thrasher will cause it to teleport, but I’ve purposely tried that and sometimes it doesn’t. I think that’s just the RNG lining up. My best results have been AoEing after it starts spinning, since it usually doesn’t go invulnerable, though occasionally it will right at the start of the spin. Sometimes it seems like destroying all the bubbles stops it from teleporting.

As for the poisonous buildup stacks it gains, they’re caused by the poison pools. They tick about once every second, which grants it 1 stack if the thrasher is in one of pools. The poison pools are caused by the poison vents if you fail to destroy them within a few seconds. The poison vents are spawned in the surrounding areas after it plants itself in the ground. Once the thrasher gains 5 stacks, it will eventually shake off the poison, doing the large AoE.

Thanks for the excellent answer I’ve been experimenting some, but it’s so freaking hard to tell in this case.

Ashen.2907:

Windsagio.1340:

Tman.6349:

Windsagio.1340:

TPMN.1483:

Once you experience smooth nice runs – you’ll never turn back and realise this is how the game was meant to be played and can really enjoy the content.

Funny thing on this;

Kind of on a whim, last night I joined a level 1 fractal that advertised for novices. I wanted to help (if I could without being overwhelming) and I wanted to try something different off, and used my sinister Necro (Usually for fractals it’s guardian or ele). 32-3 of the players had never done fractals before.

We got;
Uncategorized,
Cliffside,
Volcanic,
Mai trin.

Given the scenario and our weird makeup, the run went shockingly smoothly.

Even on Mai, where at least 1 person had never done the fight before, we had nobody die in the main phase and a total of 2 people go down in the cannon-fire.

The main problem in the entire run was that our guardian had this difficulty learning that he should put down the hammer before the stacks get to 40 (which was more funny than sad).

Maybe they were secretly super skilled players who had just avoided fractals, and maybe fractal 1 is the easiest content in the game when you know the rules, but given that a random run going decidedly non-meta with random pickup players went totally smoothely with no wipes, I dunno it says something.

Probably about specifying others playstyle isn’t required for a smooth run :p

The fact that your smooth, anecdotal run seems to surprise and amaze you may ‘say something’ as well. Guess how often meta dungeon runners are surprised that they had a smooth run? Uhm…never…because that’s the point of the dungeon meta. Mmkay thanx.

If I wanted to go tit-for-tat with you, I’d compare it to the other anecdotal run where the dude solo’d the first three, and then grabbed 4 pugs who immediately wiped before the first cannon salvo.

That really wasn’t my intent though, I made a point of not just ordering people around, and the fact that people who didn’t know the encounter at all were able to adapt and learn quickly and that we had absolutely no difficulties without regard to meta pretty specifically puts the lie to your statement.

We did what on paper was a potentially disasterous run, and it was a joy.

Very glad you had a fun and joyous run with players who seemed to share your preferred approach to having a good time playing the game. Now lets see how many people post in this thread, or create threads like it, saying that you shouldnt be allowed to enjoy the game playing with people who enjoy the same aspects as yourself.

There’s irony in this because the most strident anti-‘meta’ people are the ones who feel they’re being forced as well, and to some degree it can get like that.

It used to be really bad, but the situation is solving itself, and fewer and fewer people are demanding meta. There was a time when the majority of the groups were ‘ZERK HEAVY’ or worse “NO RANGER NO NECRO” (worse because singling out is always ugly).

~~~

You could do a whole thing about how zerk groups aren’t even the majority anymore, but people are still mad from before, it would be an interesting subtopic.

Tman.6349:

Windsagio.1340:

TPMN.1483:

Once you experience smooth nice runs – you’ll never turn back and realise this is how the game was meant to be played and can really enjoy the content.

Funny thing on this;

Kind of on a whim, last night I joined a level 1 fractal that advertised for novices. I wanted to help (if I could without being overwhelming) and I wanted to try something different off, and used my sinister Necro (Usually for fractals it’s guardian or ele). 32-3 of the players had never done fractals before.

We got;
Uncategorized,
Cliffside,
Volcanic,
Mai trin.

Given the scenario and our weird makeup, the run went shockingly smoothly.

Even on Mai, where at least 1 person had never done the fight before, we had nobody die in the main phase and a total of 2 people go down in the cannon-fire.

The main problem in the entire run was that our guardian had this difficulty learning that he should put down the hammer before the stacks get to 40 (which was more funny than sad).

Maybe they were secretly super skilled players who had just avoided fractals, and maybe fractal 1 is the easiest content in the game when you know the rules, but given that a random run going decidedly non-meta with random pickup players went totally smoothely with no wipes, I dunno it says something.

Probably about specifying others playstyle isn’t required for a smooth run :p

The fact that your smooth, anecdotal run seems to surprise and amaze you may ‘say something’ as well. Guess how often meta dungeon runners are surprised that they had a smooth run? Uhm…never…because that’s the point of the dungeon meta. Mmkay thanx.

If I wanted to go tit-for-tat with you, I’d compare it to the other anecdotal run where the dude solo’d the first three, and then grabbed 4 pugs who immediately wiped before the first cannon salvo.

That really wasn’t my intent though, I made a point of not just ordering people around, and the fact that people who didn’t know the encounter at all were able to adapt and learn quickly and that we had absolutely no difficulties without regard to meta pretty specifically puts the lie to your statement.

We did what on paper was a potentially disasterous run, and it was a joy.