Guild Wars 2

A trial isn’t a summary judgement or summary punishment.

Being taken to task and questioned for her actions and having to take responsibility is only a good thing, and a court, in the end, might find her not guilty due to extenuating circumstances.

Or they might find her guilty and negligent.

The point isn’t to punish or Kill her, it’s to give a sense of closure and to show that actions have to be answered for and justified, even for ‘heroes’.

The funny/sad thing is that this was pretty clear before Wintersday, but it’s still a struggle to get it to filter through to people.

Keys are essentially free, it’s an extra chest for zero effort.

Let’s just file this under “People will complain about literally everything”

The logan comparison is an interesting, but doesn’t show in Caithe’s favor. He had a very clear and valid conflict of interest, and it was clear to everyone what choice he had to make between the (believed) threat to Jennah and the battle with Krak.

Caithe, on the other hand, has a dark secret she’s ashamed of, never describes the reasons (I’m sorry, “THERES NO TIME!!!” doesn’t actually cut it it as a valid excuse, take 30 seconds). and just says ‘trust me’ with no cause, while explicitly going against the prophecy/will of her creator (one of the most knowledgable and powerful beings in the world).

You can make a good arguement in Logan’s case. He was probably wrong, but they did a good job setting the conflict (between his loyalty to DE and his Oath to and love interest in Jennah) and selling it. AFAIK they know why he left, they just thought he made the wrong call.

The secrecy is a major issue (one lacking with Logan), and is far easier to justify within a framework of her own shame and personal flaws than in any interest in the greater good. If they’re meaning to represent her as dodgy and manipulative then they did a good job, if they expect us to actually trust her they’re doing a terrible job.

Junkpile.7439:

mtpelion.4562:

Junkpile.7439:

Thanathos.2063:

RNG is RNG.

Or item isn’t even some accounts loot table.

Accounts do not have loot tables.

How can you know?

Try and build any possible justification for Anet doing it that way.

The impression I got too was that the losses were at least as much from a significant portion of the crew turning as it was the direct dragon attacks.

There was no way to predict or react to that happening in those particular circumstances.

Tormentor.2508:

Windscar.8732:

…I bet that is why Trahearne’s wild hunt was to kill Zaitan.

Pretty sure Traehearne’s wild hunt was to cleanse Orr, if I remember correctly

I think Caithe’s hunt was killing Zhaitan, all tips lead to your characters hunt is killing mordremoth.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Windsagio.1340:

FrizzFreston.5290:

I don’t think I would trust anyone who could be corrupted. Who says Trahearne isn’t compromised, is he still himself? Would you go with the egg to the first Pact commander? Uh huh.

Who can you really trust in such a situation. It’s not just a secret that you put out there easily. That would’ve been really irresponsible to her very own race. I pretty much could’ve seen the destruction of the entire sylvari race with that secret out.

Counterpoint using your logic: Who’s to say that given her own guilt and her dalliances with the nightmare she wasn’t corrupted herself and stole the egg / hid vital intel due to Mordremoth’s influence? The most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves.

And if not Traehearne, how about you? If you’re not Sylvari Mordremoth corruption isn’t in question, if you are, given that your specific dream inevitably involves slaying a dragon made out of plant bitds, it seems a safe bet.

Edit: A very strong case can be made that Caithe’s secrecy is more based on her own feelings of guilt as relates to Wynne (although the tree is complicit in hiding that) and less about safety concerns. On that note, there’s no court case for treason against the Sylvari, because the Tree knows and has always known.

Crimes against life and manslaughter would stick better, especially now, given what happened to the pact.

Sounds more and more like scapegoating to me. Caithe isn’t fully responsible for all those things. Partially responsible, maybe. But as you clearly pointed out, you don’t even have all the facts to make such an accusation. Plus the rest of the arguments on how Caithe’s actions are based upon her feelings and such are only assumptions. The Pale Tree herself ordered it to be a secret to begin with. And as such the Pale Tree is also responsible.

Trahearne send in the pact force pretty much blind, so he’s responsible for that. I mean how good of a tactical idea is it to merely bombard the jungle randomly at a huge largely unknown force, which may or may not corrupt half your army in some way. (Zaithan did, Kralkatorrik does, and Jormag does, so it’s not even that much of a stretch to expect the same to happen to begin with.)

Aside from all that, there’s no court case to made to begin with, as there is no reigning body that actually would accoutn for the whole of Tyria. There’s no “international courthouse” to begin with. The humans wouldn’t even lift a finger if some centaurs slightly further away would be killed. They are at war with the centaurs. The Lionguard are still suspicious of the one centaur in Lion’s Arch.

It’s just waaaaaay too simple to say, “Caithe is responsible. Problem solved.”

Responsibility isn’t binary. It’s a fairly easy case to make that her actions contribute to the slaughter of the pack and the apparent death of her ‘friends’. other factors don’t remove her guilt.

Beyond the murder of Wynne (which the PT ‘forgave’), there’s the issue of the egg, The tree was almost horrified when you told her caithe had stolen it.

Still, valuable intel like “A portion of your fleet crew is very very very vunlerable to mordremoth corruption or just being driven mad” really should not have been withheld. Caithe knew all this and didn’t even try to stop or modify the attack.

FrizzFreston.5290:

I don’t think I would trust anyone who could be corrupted. Who says Trahearne isn’t compromised, is he still himself? Would you go with the egg to the first Pact commander? Uh huh.

Who can you really trust in such a situation. It’s not just a secret that you put out there easily. That would’ve been really irresponsible to her very own race. I pretty much could’ve seen the destruction of the entire sylvari race with that secret out.

Counterpoint using your logic: Who’s to say that given her own guilt and her dalliances with the nightmare she wasn’t corrupted herself and stole the egg / hid vital intel due to Mordremoth’s influence? The most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves.

And if not Traehearne, how about you? If you’re not Sylvari Mordremoth corruption isn’t in question, if you are, given that your specific dream inevitably involves slaying a dragon made out of plant bitds, it seems a safe bet.

Edit: A very strong case can be made that Caithe’s secrecy is more based on her own feelings of guilt as relates to Wynne (although the tree is complicit in hiding that) and less about safety concerns. On that note, there’s no court case for treason against the Sylvari, because the Tree knows and has always known.

Crimes against life and manslaughter would stick better, especially now, given what happened to the pact.

Need to update this thread, we need to add the fact that her not telling even Traehearne (who like him or hate him is probably the most trustworthy and noble dude on the planet) about the ‘big secret’ got the pact fleet destroyed, killed hundreds (if not thousands) of people, and left Tyria’s greatest hero’s MIA and presumed dead.

People avoid the truly hard content (sometimes with excuses as per aether) and try to excel at easier content.

Actions speak louder than words, and until that pattern changes, I can’t see much drive on Anet’s side to work on these complaints even if they did want to cater to a minority.

Cuddy.6247:

Windsagio.1340:

To go meta, I think more than difficulty, people want a way to compete and excel.

They want to do content that others can’t do or be recognized for doing it in a manner that others can’t. This is very different than sheer difficulty.

I feel like speed or efficiency bonuses would be a better way to give people what they actually want than just making the encounters inaccessible.

I’ve never really minded talent achieving more. In GW1, speedclears were much more profitable than playing on the down low, yet if you wanted to be an imbagon with KWay because you thought it was fun, nothing was actually standing in your way of completing said content.

In GW2 however it’s becoming a bit of a different story. You can’t really go with sword/shield warrior in PvE, staff mesmer, etc. because by doing so you’re signing away your ability to just complete content, nevermind be profitable.

The core concepts of this game are flaky and pretty rubbish.

Bolded section is ludicrously untrue. Almost all pve content can be easily completed with far off builds, that’s part of the complaint people have.

To go meta, I think more than difficulty, people want a way to compete and excel.

They want to do content that others can’t do or be recognized for doing it in a manner that others can’t. This is very different than sheer difficulty.

I feel like speed or efficiency bonuses would be a better way to give people what they actually want than just making the encounters inaccessible.

Karizee.8076:

Probably because contrary to all the hooting and hollering for more difficult content, very few players actually do it when they give it to us (Liadri, TA Aetherpath, etc.)

I’ve never heard of people intentionally doing the fractals with the hardest instabilities either

Why have hard large-scale content when hard small scale content would suffice?

I’d agree with Sir black, except they should keep hard content small.

Heavy coordination and heavy difficulty are an inherently destructive combination, and it’s totally unnecessary.

The gain of difficulty can be done plenty well in solo or single-group content. This will give the chance to excel and compete without putting even more resources into content for an even smaller subset of the community.

I have enough stuff in my home instance now that it’s a nice addition to the daily lap. It’s a chest with no work or searching involved at all, once you have the keys.

Ayrilana.1396:

Alienates players that are not good at coordination or playing the game.

They did the tier thing for Dry Top and many players complained about it. It wasn’t “casual” enough.

Wow that’s a wild misinterpretation. The problem is that most people can’t easily control what server you get on, and you’re at the mercy of the server.

More likely that they realized it was a vast waste of resources that only a tiny microfaction of the players would care about.

Something of that limited value I’m surprised it even got past hte suggestion phase.

Jerus.4350:

I’m a fan of the “never give up” mentality so even then I’d no confirm the kick That said, if it was a cleric/nomad warrior on lupi… yeah… I’d kick him quite quickly to save us all an hour of waiting while he afks and auto wins

Yeah, I posted that, and immediately second-guessed.

I guess it’s like this, if someone flukes and pulls when folks aren’t ready or somethingand there’s an immediate blowup, I’m going to be annoyed at the person who insists on boring everyone and soloing (if they lose).

If it’s one of the fractal fights where it comes up a lot (say molten duo or the thaumanova anamoly) I’ll keep fighting myself and cheer others on for fighting, even if they blow it.

There’s a thin line between squeezing out the attempt and wasting everyones time.

The one place I’d be tempted to kick myself is if they absolutely insisted on trying to solo and then blew it after any reasonable amount of time had passed.

We all like to put on a show, but don’t botch it.

EgonVenkman.1907:

Kicks I’ve seen are for following reasons:

1. LFG says experienced. After we wipe on part X, two of the people admit to being first timers; kicked. I don’t mind running new peeps through paths, but not those who can’t read.

2. Being Mouthy.

3. Dungeon Switchers – Switch at the end at your own risk.

4. AFK/Late -shows – We aren’t going to 4-man 3/4 of the dungeon and have you show up at the last minute. When we go in, you go in. Or you get kicked. Even if we need a 5th person for last boss; guarantee it won’t be you.

“Being Mouthy”? It’s a common thread in the discussion, why do people hate folks that talk so much? I’m, if nothing else a chatterbox in runs, people seem so dour ><

Dalanor.5387:

Yesterday i got kicked for using a staff on the TA tree as a guardian. I used greatsword …

That sounds like an excuse to me, kick on an easy last boss? They just want to steal the spot.

dlonie.6547:

lol @ODB accusing oxtred of raging, whilst making angry walls of text.

3/10.

Think of it like him being trolled (except I think ODB was seriously raging). Dude flipped out and insulted him, so then he flipped out too and came back at the guy.

At worst he blew his chance to be the adult.

Jerus.4350:

The lovely “ohh yeah, well you have no life” argument. Forums never change.

It fits in with the “Arrgh how dare you not give me my deserved props?!”

I think this is the sound of a thread dying.

might want to relax, friend.

Wethospu.6437:

I have only got kicked for meleeing lupi.

Now now, what about when you got kicked for soloing mai after you did the first 3 fractals on your own and the rest of your party wiped before the first cannonade?

Jerus.4350:

Jab.4169:

any team, can kick you at any point of the dungeon -> even after just killing last boss, for no reason at all.

apparently pve in this game is just as strict and stressful as League of Legends, you are supposed to not write anything at all in chat, to dont offend anyone by any chance, and you have to hyper focus to do not make any mistake at all.

so my conclusion about vote kick system sums up in this equasion :

pve gw2 = competetive pvp games.

LOL what ? yea. someone in arena net should say no to stupid ideas.

I have to say it hasn’t been that bad for me. Everyone who has played with me knows I make mistakes and plenty of them, but again (god I don’t want to say it again) I have yet to be kicked. Have a good attitude and do your best and actually try to learn things and it seems to go pretty well in my experience.

Yeah, that was the explicit point of my post. There’s been a lot of complaints about it, but I don’t think I’ve ever experienced it, so I figure there’s gotta be some common factor in groups.

Reading, it could be possible that explicit speedruns are more subject to this in general beyond the build questions, being more goal-oriented. (This would fit my experience, one of my rules is to avoid conditional LFGs even if I technically qualify for their description).

People in general aren’t talking about start-of-run kicks, but rather late-run kicks (from what I can tell). Joining against build doesn’t really apply to that usually, excepting “I think you’re faking your gear” arguments.

insanemaniac.2456:

you might be carrying

Aww thanks for the complement ><

I don’t just mean of myself tho, I mean I’ve seen conflict around it… once in the last few months? And that one was so kittened up that I left on my own while they were threatening each other.

There have been a lot of threads about kicking over the last few days, and I’ve been wondering about this;

I’ve never had a problem with kicks, in fact I’ve experienced almost none with fairly heavy dungeon play.

I want to figure out how my play rules are different than others, it might be interesting.

So, what kind of groups do you see that get a lot of kick problems, or just kicks?

Xandror.2356:

One of my goals as a dungeon pugger is to join as a 5th man of a non English speaking guild run and not be kicked. Anyone ever pulled this off?

I did, korean fractal run in the mid-30s. It was strange ><

It’s a rock-and-hard-space issue. If it’s too hard to kick, people can harass groups and it’s hard to remove afk’ers. If it’s too easy to kick you get group-stealing.

It can be annoying (although I’m still not sure where people keep finding these awful groups), but there’s just no easy solution.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Windsagio.1340:

A questionmark would make this thread clearer :p

The original message was deleted

Oohh, that makes more sense. Sorry, klonk self

A questionmark would make this thread clearer :p

I’ve had no problems with this, or very few. I don’t know where people keep running into these jerkwad players >>

Yeah, norncam is brutal for the maw. More proof that Anet is racist for asura.

Thing with Mawdry is you get a unique skin, an ascended back (usually costs 15 damask + other crap) and the dust eater.

That’s why it’s so expensive, you actualyl get a ton with the package

The problem, as others have stated is misunderstanding of the encounter due to a poor tooltip on Anets part.

Copper and Platinum are the worst for this, but the people shouting misinfo is a problem… especially since folks fighting about it are generally not putting out their best DPS.

It’s as simple as ’don’t kill the bubbles near the husk’ I can get maybe that’s hard for people, but that’s the fight. Yelling about AE and the offshoots just shows you don’t know.

~~~

And lets get serious, the Fort Aspenwood solution where you mass reporrt people for trolling when you yourself are wrong about the encounter, that’s just silly.

Kuldebar.1897:

Um, it’s a cheaper Mawdrey II for those who can stomach Jumping Puzzles…but like M2, it’s woefully ill-equipped to handle the task at hand.

Come on! 3-6 stacks of 50 a day? And Mawdrey 2 costs about 100-150 gold in mats to craft. SoG maybe be “cheaper” but it still is just as anemic.

Just let me put four stacks of this crap in the Mystic Toilet for RNG rewards already!

Problem solved.

It goes faster than you might htink though, (about) a stack a day.

Schwarzseher.9873:

Do you really think they would care about those afkers? Things like this are going on since release. And they havent found an appropiate solution to this.

There is no automatic solution, it has to be handled case-by-case. Unfortunately this means that enforcement is slow and spotty.

OP could always try shaming, but they usually don’t care.

Ashen.2907:

Windsagio.1340:

TL;DR:
The Metagame is driven by success requirements or competition.
For the Metagame to be a consideration it needs to be just about required for success.

This is inaccurate. Metagaming can and does occur regardless of success requirements or competition.

That distinction is covered in the non tl;dr version of the thread. The purpose is to establish the distinction between metaplay (which you’re describing) and the ‘Metagame’ (which I’m arguing is something different).

Oh you guys ><

Your essential misunderstanding is your insistence that I’m telling you how you must play the game. I’m not at all, I’m telling you that you’re describing it in the wrong way.

Why do you keep saying that I’m insisting you change the way you want to play? At worst I’m arguing that some of the attitudes associated with it are destructive, but even that is not a demand, maybe unsolicited advice.

~~

To my specific, I can totally understand why you love playing the way you do, and really, I’m not sure how many ways I have to say this, I wouldn’t want to deny you that.

I’m honestly at a loss, I really don’t get the constant reframing to that single point, given all the different ways I’ve tried to show it’s not what I’m after.

Harper.4173:

I can apply my goals to the parties I start.2 Back To Top
Harper.4173

Parties that I clearly state the goals for. People who have the same goals as me or who want to take up the same goals can join. People who don’t have the same goals should not join.
So for me and people like me the goals are clear and depending on those goals we define what is “meta” for us and what we consider success or not.

You don’t get it. I don’t have to get out of anywhere.
I play with people who play like me. We like the way we do our things. Why should I have to find common ground with people I don’t want to play with and will never play with?

“Get out of your own head” is pretty useful advice for life though, empathy is a good thing, and life is a lot less painful once you get that your desires and personal likes don’t define everyone elses desires and personal likes.

You’re so stubborn Harper :p

I’ve said this, but I’ll repeat: I care for a few reasons

1) I really do feel that the improper usage has a chilling effect and turns people off.
2) I’m a ‘words have meanings’ nerd, and the misusage annoys me in general
3) I feel that people are using it to define an ‘other’ that they can be hostile to and look down on, and I think that’s bad for the game. (Some folks are calling it the “PHIW Crowd”)

Now I could be mistaken about point 1, but I think basic psychology supports the idea.
On point 2, there’s really nothing to be done, it will still annoy me if you’re using it wrong.
On point 3, I think this is what star ace was referring to. Do what you want and play what you want, but it’s more than that for some folks, it’s some kind of ego thing. Admittedly that also applies to the “YOU CAN’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO, I’M JOINING ANYWAYS” people, but let’s also be frank, they’re not taking part in this discussion.

~~~~

The thread was really started on point 2 though, it really irks the hell out of me to see the term so consistently misused :p

Harper.4173:

Again I am telling you :

The way you see it is not how people who run speed groups see it.

If I go into AC P1 and take more than 10 minutes I have lost. Period.
I’ve lost my time, my motivation and my enjoyment.

For people who care about speed and efficiency completing under certain conditions ( fast) is equivalent to winning in your pvp scenario.
Simply completing is just like in your example I said " yeah but at least you still played the game".

Just completing is not the goal. Completing within a set time frame is. Failure to complete in said time frame = losing.

Gah you and your double posts :p

There are levels of goals, sure, but there’s also a baseline.

Your personal goals only apply to you, you can call whatever you want a failure. You Cannot apply that meaning to other players and expect them to respect it.

In comparison, failing to complete the dungeon is about as good of a baseline failure as we can get. It’s pretty universally a failure, akin to losing a PvP match.

This is an essential problem. You have to get out of your own head and understand the difference between your, or a small groups goals and the likely goals of the other players. You have to try to find a common ground if you can, and the best common ground I can come up with is dungeon completion.

Dalanor.5387:

Firebaall.5127:

Staff guardians = overwriting longer duration mights

Argument is over.

‘cept most people don’t throw a ton of boons out in silverwastes (in my experience), a guardian with staff just about always will. You don’t overwrite might till it gets to 25 stacks, and that’s rarely a problem in SW, even with +12

The whole thing is bizarre to me though, not sure how they’re hurting the OP much. If soembody is just running around spamming 1 for kill credit, yeah that’s conceptually annoying, but it’s not make-or-break either. If you lost on one of the legendaries, it’s more likely because of the lack of knowledge on/misinformation about the encounter making them too slow.

I don’t undersatnd why someone would use staff consistently on the legendaries, but then agian ~ is a button (or whatever your bind is), so maybe they swap in and out appropriately (this seems likely to me).

Dalanor; I know I just said this, but you’re not actually responding to this thread. You’re responding to any of the previous discussions/arguments on the subject.

I barely want to answer your tl;dr, but some of it is amazingly relevant,

1) No, you’re wrong, that’s the whole point of the thread. Reread the OP, it explains pretty well (imo)
2) No kidding? This isn’t relevant to what I’m saying though, and nobody’s denying it.
3) Utterly, utterly irrelevant. I can’t speak for others, I have absolutely no problem getting groups, because most people don’t care. I don’t need a community to be able to play, maybe because I’m pleasant to play with and don’t kitten up.

… Actually I’ll give a bit more on this; The “PHIW Community” as you would call it is simply most of the people that just enjoy playing the game and doing the content. It doesn’t need to be a ‘community’, it’s the community o players, except those who exclude themselves.

Nobody wins a Rap battle by saying ’I know you are but what am I?"

Harper.4173:

Trust me.
If you tell people that play like me that it took you 18 minutes to do a CM path you will get either mocked or felt sorry for depending on the situation.

I don’t want to be harsh but, why would I think much of the opinions of people who use how fast they can do a dungeon clear (and how much faster they are than others) as personal validation?

The difference in pvp is that you lose, you lose. You can make excuses for losing, but you can’t change the part that you lost. Non-meta fighting meta in Pvp, given even remotely reasonable skill differentials, non-meta will almost always lose, and lose hard.

In PVE, non meta will win at the base level. Some guy with an ego stake might tell us that we didn’t win amazingly enough, but we still won. Completing the content is the only realistic baseline to use, because it’s the only one that’s universal.

Dalanor.5387:

So everyone has the right to play how they want is totally acceptable until it’s based on the meta? Thats what you Windsagio and Star Ace wants to suggest?

I never said you couldn’t play zerker. Just don’t treat it as required play or call it a “Meta” (at least if you want to be accurate). Really, Ace didn’t either from what I read, his pont was ‘dont’ be a jerk about being meta, and don’t tie your ego up with the game.’

I admit the position you attributed to us is more easily argued against though :p

That’s another reason to spit off this thread, the OP in the thread that got me into the discussion wanted to change the game rules dramatically so that zerker was no longer ‘meta’. S/he was wrong on several points, and it muddies the actual discussion that can be had.

Lifestealer.4910:

Windsagio.1340:

Dalanor.5387:

Meta problem … Seriously how many thread you want to open and troll 20 pages long until you finally admit it’s a player issue which is generated by the ignorance of the PHIW crowd?

Well posts like this keep me going:

Let’s break it down.

1) A viewpoint you don’t like is of course trolling
2) It’s all the other group’s fault, and they’re wrong because they’re ignorant.
3) It is very specifically kitten vs. them thing.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that needs to be fought.

Is it gonna help anything tho?

Nobody is going to convince either side to change their point of view, they will continue to look down upon each other. Fighting each other’s ideology or viewpoint is only going to escalate things and worsen attitude of both sides, not help it.

The solution to this issue has always being in front of the players, and no it isn’t to force them to believe what you want them to believe, the solution is to separate the group since because they all have different goals in mind.

I’m a hopeless dreamer, but the ‘sides’ aren’t the only people that read these (at least early in a thread). So if I can get some people to read my OP and say ‘hey, that kind of makes sense!’ and I can avoid being too provocative myself, there’s a chance to change how people see things a little.

Just not the people who are invested in the idea of a ‘meta’ :p

Dalanor.5387:

Meta problem … Seriously how many thread you want to open and troll 20 pages long until you finally admit it’s a player issue which is generated by the ignorance of the PHIW crowd?

Well posts like this keep me going:

Let’s break it down.

1) A viewpoint you don’t like is of course trolling
2) It’s all the other group’s fault, and they’re wrong because they’re ignorant.
3) It is very specifically kitten vs. them thing.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that needs to be fought.