Describe a situation that someone will lose 100 times to and is a basic “learn to play” – knowledge issue please.
backstab thief. 100b warrior.
100b = noobtest, so please go L2P (freetip = stunbrek, stun warrior, kill warrior, or if you got everything on CD: dodge, disengage, run away, come back kill warrior)
Guys guys clearly rifle + banner warriors are the best…
I wet myself on my guardian everytime I see a warrior holding a rifle.
Did you play this game? Rifle can kill you only in real life, in GW2 rifle is useless (unless ur target is afk).
Or 100b.
lmao sorry if it seems like I keep bringing this up but you gotta admit…
it IS one of the warrior skills that really hurts.
And if you get hit by 100b in any situation where you are alone with warrior (and not on CD / low HP from previous fight) you must be blind or PvP is’nt for you at all.
Please just go back to PVE forum, PvP is for ppl who can react.
How about we just remove the down system for pvp/wvw, it would solve alot of problems.
You dont have clue about this game do you?
I suggest same downedskills for all classes, so it is fair already. Same as i suggest same underwatercombat-skills for all, to make it fair. Just saying.
Make this happen and by the way, make it so that light/med/heavy armor all gives the same defence. Seriously, thats only a few of the advantages of being light armor and you want to take it away, imo heavy armor classes shouldnt have any stomp saver at all considering how overpowered they are and have no draw backs for using heavy armor, only advantages. Stop qqing.
Somehow i cant see advantage of being warrior (high armor + high HP) against Ele (low armor + low HP).
Can you enlight me please??
So far Ele > Warrior in every single way.
Ele can bunker, support or dps.
As warrior you have big problem to find team, that wants to play with you without “omg Warrior sucks can you change to Thief atleast???”.
A random map every time you join a tournament would be awesome.
If we can’t have that, at least a daily map would be better than playing a week in the same map over and over.
On the bright side: this system gives you the perfect opportunity to test your builds and strategies specific to that one map, but on the darker side… it gets old fast.
Make maps random. Srsly.
Weekly map = after few days everyone goma play same setup/build and we gona have boring map setups.
Random map = more rounded builds and more diversity. Does anyone here love to play same old boring “meta” nonsense every day (and to be forced to change it every week?).
Please Anet, give us diversity.
We need something to make us usefull, something like “mortal strike” from wow. Something to counter enemy healing or protection.
I guess kitten dont understand the meaning of glass cannon, Hits hard, breaks easily, know your role kids.
Stop lying, go back to engi/ranger forum.
The point of banners is originally to be a fusion between el conjurations and engi turrets. What people need to remember is that the banner can be used by anyone, that’s the whole idea behind them. The warrior place it and them it’s up to everyone in the team to make a good use of it, not juste the warrior, whose job is to hack things, not to agitate some flag >.>.
So, useless banner is good because someone else can pick it up and do nothing with it???
id love to know why gw2 doesnt have a system like world of war craft were you can duel somone to see who is better?
So when you have duel between excavators and airplanes, what is the goal, dig up more land, or carry more people? Or who can bake bread quickly.
Your question is answered so many times, just read forum. Or maybe even better, play game and learn something b4 you post.
Never mind that many top teams in the competitive scene use engineers and necros. Let’s just be ignorant about that? Ok sounds good.
You really do have no idea of what you’re talking about. And that sums up 95% of the people on this forum.
Why do you bother answer to these posts? Stop feeding troll.
Deathmatch basically =a team fight.
Stealth is core to the thief, it has counters like dodging backstab, or aoe into it.
Dodge roll is counter to stealth???
ROFL, go troll somewhere else. There is no counter for Stealth (you cant dodge stealth, and you cant aoe someone who you cant see). Maybe AOE can help there but only if you know where thief is.
But truth is:
Nothing counter stealth in this game.You cant counter something if you cant see it.
See someone go stealth, plant traps, get mobility to get far away, put up some cripple/wall in between you and them. If you see someone go stealth, don’t stand there like an idiot.
And that is prediction not counter. Main problem is teamfight (you cant see good Thief b4 he go for 1shot).
And he meant AoE’s for shadow refuge. If you noticed, if anyone leaves shadow refuge b4 it ends it reveals them and puts the stealth debuff on them. Since they are limited to that circle, place a ton of Aoe’s and or use some Aoe Knockback.
Please stop troling and go play some tpvp, you need to learn much more, shadow refuge is not offensive skill, and its mainly used to stomp/revive. When we talk about Stealth no one think about shadow refuge.
Please come back when you learn something.
Deathmatch basically =a team fight.
Stealth is core to the thief, it has counters like dodging backstab, or aoe into it.
Dodge roll is counter to stealth???
ROFL, go troll somewhere else. There is no counter for Stealth (you cant dodge stealth, and you cant aoe someone who you cant see). Maybe AOE can help there but only if you know where thief is.
But truth is:
Nothing counter stealth in this game.
You cant counter something if you cant see it.
Won’t be enough to convince these “cheesy” EU’s who can’t innovate :x
Sorry, name me a good Warrior set-up that EU invented.
Name me anything good that NA invented.
Global Positioning System
Of course related to the topic.
Defektive’s Longbow/GS build.
I’m from New York.
Innovation!
/ignore
Just another rude kid.
The Gear:
6/6 Scholar Runes
Zerker Ammy / RuneUtilities:
(Standard utilities, Balanced Stance, Frenzy, BC)
Sigil of fire on both weapons?
~DISCLAIMER
I am not complaining about said class, just offering my experience and ways that it could be improved. I still love to play it and I love the game. Just being constructive.
TL;DR is highlited in bold near the bottom.
~Originally, Thief was my favorite profession when I started the game. Then I looked at Warriors and at first glance, it appeared that warriors had all the tools a thief had in terms of damage output and mobility but without the stealth. While this is somewhat true, there is a major setback in the Warrior design.
What I mean is, the best way (in my opinion, through many tests and experiences) to play a warrior is to play him like a thief. You want to use a fast main hand like an axe with a shield. You want to have that axe out always and only switch to your greatsword for an extra cripple, hundred blades spike burst at the best opportunity, for running away, or for catching a running target. You want to avoid large battles and only show yourself when you see an opportunity to come in and burst someone down.
This playstyle works very well until you notice the amount of conditions that will hit you when you get into a mid to large scale fight, or even just 1v1ing certain classes. Thieves have lot of condition removal with their stealthing. Warriors only have a few ways to remove conditions. They are not living up to their name and are being outclassed in many ways. A Warrior should not need to play like a Thief. A Warrior should have skills that allow him to dive into the heat of battle and survive long enough to make people scared. A “berserker” if you will. They are far from this. I don’t know about you guys, but when I think of the “Warrior” this game is trying to portray with a huge sword, big muscles and heavy plate armor, I don’t see him being “crippled” and “slowed down” as easily as they’re able to be in game.
I believe that the main way to increase Warrior’s viability and potency in big fights (or any fight for that matter) is to revamp their healing abilities and give them a way to be immune to conditions for a short period of time. Kind of like “Endure Pain” but instead of immune to damage, immune to all types of crippling, bleeding, things like that. This would synergize with their whole “dive in and burst someone” play style that they already have with frenzy and bull’s rush, where they can activate yet another buff to increase their potency and really dive in like a “Warrior” would, and unleash an assault that will make people fear for their life a little bit, rather than just kiting the warrior with crippling and chill effects while everyone laughs at him and he explodes into a million pieces under the focus fire of 9 quadrillion AoE effects. The only way I’ve been avoiding such punishment is by positioning my self very carefully and not even coming close to a fight unless I’m sure I can kill a priority target without dying. I dont believe this is the way a Warrior should be played.
Don’t get me wrong, I do have much success with my warrior, I just feel that if I were playing a different class, like a Thief, my success would be increased tenfold because of the current limitations on the warrior class.
What do you guys think? Agree or disagree?
Who cares just quit this “game”….
We got many nice PvP changes so far: underwater projectile, skill tooltips…. So many changes in last 6 months.
This game is so well balanced. with best pvp content (so many diferent game modes)… So much fun in PvP….
Cant play GW2 anymore… I can only log on forum from time to time, i guess im gona quit forum soon, since here i can see only lies and false promises from devs.
GW2 is “failure of the year 2012”.
I hope it will never be possible, if you want to play solo, there are hotjoins and free tournaments, leave paids to organized teams.
Hotjoin is a crap, mindless zerg. I would like to see Solo Tournament Queue (free and paid).
Are they going to implement an open PTR?
They can test all tooltip changes without us i guess.
Dungeons:
I wrote this guide to help new Warriors understand the principles of a team-orientated Warrior build specifically designed for dungeons. It’s a good starting point for further customization in the future and will teach you the important elements a Warrior has to offer, https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Build-High-damage-team-focused-dungeon-PvE/1099679
Rly good guide (personaly i dont like your weapon choice), but its best guide for start.
Wait…i dont feel as if im stuck in a corner. Just be creative. I have a GC/Tank hybrid, Full Condi Burn/bleed, and multiple tank/support builds. Just takes time but its all viable.
Wait, did you ever played pvp????
Add gem costing ‘save spec feature’ So you can goto your pvp locker, click a tab and change spec, gear, sigils, traits, utilities etc.
I have 4x Char warrior with different build/gear. When i need other build i just relog…
@ dardamaniac
it IS a learn to play issue, amongst the good players thiefs are not considered over powered, they dont get over represented in paid tournaments.
Another one… So many ppl without knowledge/expirience is willing to share (what they dont have). FYI (amongst top thief players) thief is considered “OP” and “No skill required”.
If you learn to play an Ele, and you get good at it, you will never lose a 1on1 to a thief again.
FYI this is not a 1v1 game, but if you like to play 1vs1… go play Quake 1,2,3 – Warcraft 3, Starcraft….
Absolutely right. Actually the word “paid” was not in the same sentence as “burst”.
Still the topic is about thief, and not thief acting in tournaments. So that I was answering for.
Did you ever read OP???? Its all about team and thief roles in spvp…..
Well gs is by far best warrior weapon for 1 vs 1 situations and i will explain you why.
Bad players are the ones that die to GS, which is why it’s so popular in hotjoin and WvW. Some of the devs have gone so far as to say that outright. That hardly helps your case. Axe can do anything GS can do, only better. 7k Eviscerate is also kind of weak.
I might agree with you if you explain me how you chase an enemy at 2000 range with axe, cause i can explain you how you do it with GS.
Or you might explain me what you do vs an shortbow thief wich spam imobilize and cluster on you, with your axe
what gap closer you will use ? eviscerate for 300 range, and gl doing over 7k on an bunker with eviscerate, since is your only burst , axe 5 will hit only newbies, or bunker’s who will facetank you , meantime whirlwind got an decent range and damage.
I am confused, details please : burst, gap closer, escape skill ,CC ? what is supperior at axe ?
Yes in zerg vs zerg you can spam skills with axe , however whirlwind +gs 1 is good enough.
Please guys, have you ever played warrior??? Strongest build 1v1 is axe + mace / mace + shield. GS is good for better aoe and mobility, but axe mace is just 2good for 1v1 (so much cc and imba axe “1”).
You have no idea what your talkng about. if you think bs/crit thiefs are OP in sPvP.
Thiefs are extremely underwhelming in Spvp. We do it cuase we love thiefs., Almost any other class is better then a thief in high level spvp.
Pls……
How can you even write this without getting a brain-aneurysm?
- No class has better burst.
- Almost no class has better Mobility.
- No other class can run such a glassy equip and still be as hard to kill.
- Few classes have as good Teamfight-Skills like Shadow Refuge, Cluster Bomb, Cantrips, Trickshot etc.
- No Class has a downed-mode where you can escape Stomps twice and no class deals more DPS while being downed.The only reason why I wouldn’t nerf the Thiefs Burst in the current Meta is because most Teams are running 2 very tanky Chars (most of the time Guard and a Tank-Ele), that it can be very frustrating to deal with, if you don’t have the burst of the Thief.
Really ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyahdHO0WHk
Your post is pure fail
Really
This is sPvP forum please learn to read and to play this game. We discuss sPvP here. You have forum for WvW and other things….
p.s. i guess your post is a pure fail (since you missed entire forum)
^ I hope you guys aren’t serious. New signature btw, priceless replies here…
People who do not play sPvP should not be able to post here. Im jelous at your sig but…
Too much nonsense on the forum just because anyone can post….
remove stealth from the game, problem solved aye?
omg,
remove game from game, remove players from game, remove game from internet, problem solved….
This is just l2p issue.
Just leave grp when you paly sPvP and your friends cant see you…. Its usual to see stealthed friends from your party (even if they r in oposite team).
Rofl, posts like this one are the sole reason I read these boards during my morning dump. None of you “pros” 1v1ed this dude yet? Masters of this incredibly complex pvp game should surely be able to stomp a player with 1 week exp right? I mean there are like 9 skills to use!! You definitely need months of practice to get it down.
I’m not a pro player (+ i quit playing gw2) but im gona answer:
Do you think that:
Some kid in pedal racing car (who have 1,5h as a pedal racing car driver) can provoke a race with Michael Schumacher,
or
Is there any glory if Wladimir Klitschko take out some kids head with his fist (just because a child does not know his place in the world) ??
Sorry no one can take the child seriously.
Movement is default – Q -W-E-A-D
You wasted best keys for strafe left / strafe right??? You dont need “Turn Left” “Turn Right” if you have mouse…. Just move strafe to a/d and you can have Q/E for something really important.
While largely true, there are still some very big differences here.
- PvE gear has the same “resilience” stat available, known as Toughness which is also useful in PvE content to an extent.
- Duration. I acquired my full set of exotic gear in about 6 hours played, this is (I’m sure we can both agree) substantially less than traditional MMO’s.
Also I’m not implying that the people who already participate in, and love sPvP are going to like or engage in this system. This is for the rest of us, and I’m sure we exist, that don’t like the current implementation and would rather see the system being discussed in the thread (I’ve edited my OP).
Please go to pve forum and ask for some seasonal game modes, no one here want to farm X days in pve just to change spec/build.
After deciphering this, I have to ask… have you played WoW arena system? For over 12 months that crap has been so freaking unbalanced and unfair. They have a matchmaking system, that won’t even match you properly. Unfortunately they also have tier levels of PvP gear which doesn’t make it even playing field at all until you get to 2k+ rating, that is of course, if you can even make it that far. If they’re going to base PvP off ANY game, I strongly suggest not using WoW.
Though, if anything, people need to be patient and not so demanding. It will happen when it happens, and getting on the dev’s cases won’t push the fact through any faster. They’re probably doing the best they can, and if you can’t be patient then perhaps gaming isn’t the hobby for you -shrugs-
-casually waits for the nerdrage to begin-
Please, dont, Blizzard is a few light years ahead in competition. Their pve game has much more pvp content than Anet’s PvP game.
They trying to balance game for PVP (even they true and real balance is for raid’s).
On the other hand what we got here????
Anet’s big pvp game without pvp (there is one abandoned and imbalanced game mode).
You cant even play all professions. Class diversity??? ROFL
So what we get for our money? False promises…
What i paid for is a big pvp MORPG, i paid that money almost a year ago… Did i get what i paid for?
NO
In the meantime, I have seen so many changes in pve… new seasonal game modes, new instances, and after that even more changes and now bug fixes for new PVE instance.
A few days ago I stopped playing.
p.s. In my country it is forbidden to deliberately deceive the customer (we have Customer Protection Law).
And who says warriors aren’t viable? I love having warriors on my team for WvW/PvP and in dungeons…
None said that warrior aren’t viable in instance or in WvWvW but this is sPvP forum (and we discuss sPvP here). Please refrain from posting when u dont even know what we r talking about.
This is sPvP forum…. Go post in Your PVE forum please.
I couldn’t agree more with this thread.
Hopefully come this huge pvp update that they will balance some skills.
In last “Huge PvP update” they changed few underwatter skills.
PvP is dead.
I think some of you guys need to back off… Johnathan and the team are building every month on this FREE game and are doing a good job.
Omg, you talk about some other game not GW2.
FYI this game isnt “FREE” at all. I palyed 65 euros for it (at preoder day one).
also FYI devs doing great job (maybe) in PVE only, I did not see any PvP change so far (except for a few balance patches).
ETA doesnt do anything for anyone. it only puts unneeded pressure on the devs. if youre impatient/fed-up, just leave the game and come back in 2 months. im sure everyone would be ok with that.
I bought the game (preorder) on the first day, along with my friends (4 of them). We understood (or We intentionally misled by false advertising) that this is a PvP game.
All my friends left when they realized that this is not PvP game (real PvP is orphan here). Devs care only about profit and pvp (due to poor design) does not make profit at all.
“eSports infrastructure” ROFL…. Well i dont have anything against eSports but…. if you ask me… i guess you need some PvP modes first and few thousands PvP players more.
To make a football game, you need three things:
- Teams
- Viewers
- playing field
Atm, GW2 dont have any (of those three) but they selling tickets.
I do believe that you (in the near future perhaps a decade or few) can make some new exciting PvP game modes, but thats to much to wait for me.
I installed “Heroes of Newerth” last night and im gona play it. Its real PvP game without false promises.
20/0/30/0/20 or 20/20/0/10/20
Well I mean that I worked so hard to get the legendaries, and I can’t use it in an aspect of the game that I enjoy.
I work so hard in tPvP but i cant play WvWvW since i cant earn money in sPvP and i cant go to Way Point when i got killed (lack of money).
I work so hard in tPvP but i cant use my armor skins in town or in WvWvW.
I dont care about pve players who just wana brag . But Anet favorize PVE players (i guess they buy more gems).
I prefer butter to margarine. Seriously, who wants margarine? It’s stupid for anyone to like that when butter is clearly superior. It won’t be long before they just take margarine off the shelves.
Ahahahahahahaha Bullseye
Best qoute ever. And so painfully true.
I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.
How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?
If you just try play tPvP (real one 5v5 team match) you gona figure it by yourself.
@Anet:
Please we need sPvP and tPvP forum, there is alot ppl who wanna discuss about tPvP without tPvP expirience.
ingame solution:
Lock tPvP for rank <15.
Like usual, another person who tries to marginalize my experience because they don’t want to hear anyone else’s opinions or listen to facts.
99% games won in tournies as necromancer, 88% games played as necromancer overall.
You didn’t explain anything, afraid of others ridiculing your amazing-ness?
/sarcasm.
Ohh i see now, 200 Tournament played…. so expirienced…. Thats around 5-6 ranks earned in tPvP.
In my book (with your stats), you r ready to join tPvP for the first time. Not to talk about it, but to see it for the first time.
Care to explain what happens when 3 dps ele’s, a guardian, and a thief roamer are fighting against 3 dps necromancers, a guardian, and a thief roamer?
Here’s a hint, team with ele’s will win everytime.
Balance =/=
It depends on a lot more things , atm you can not realize that (lack of tpvp expirience).
(edited by Wooyadeen.6491)
I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.
How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?
If you just try play tPvP (real one 5v5 team match) you gona figure it by yourself.
@Anet:
Please we need sPvP and tPvP forum, there is alot ppl who wanna discuss about tPvP without tPvP expirience.
ingame solution:
Lock tPvP for rank <15.
What exactly would thieves do if they didn’t have HS? Wouldn’t they just be useless? Mesmer should have portal nerfed/removed, other than that it’s perfectly fine.
I guess u dont even play pvp. There is one big issue.
What we got atm? We got macro users vs regular users. This situation is so unfair.
What we need is:
Find a way to ban macro users or implement macros in game so all ppl can use it.
ATM Anet favoring macro users (and other cheaters) against regular users.
Thief is fine Mesmer is fine (disbalance is not so big atm).
Main problem r macro users:
Thief with macro can burst 2/3 of your HP with just one keypress b4 u can even see him.
Mesmer with macro can kill you in 1 or 2 seconds also with just one keypress.
So, as i said situation is so unfair and pure simple solution is:
Find a way to ban macro users OR Implement macro in game and make all players even.
If you only PvP, what use would you have with gold?
Its really unfair situation for pvp players, pve player can play pve and www. If you playing sPvP only, u cant play www (since u r not gona have founds to go to waypoint when u r killed.
Its a shame, they call this game GuildWars but i didnt see guild warr so far… They call this game PvP MMO but they favoring PVE…
PvP players here in this game r orphaned.
Someone deceived us without big reason.
We already have 5 x warrior team (EU). We play only free tPvP (you cant be serious in paid with 5 warr).
This is SS from round2 and round3 (i forgot to take SS from round1).
Oh its better to have the same mediocre players , coming here as white knights , defening an attack that is succefully used on new player only ?
Instead of demanding that attack to work better at higher skilled players ? :P
Are you asking for handicap?? I didnt get this… You need same attack to do more dmg on higher rank players? Come on did you even read what you asking for?
Who says the devs know what perfectly balanced is? If they did, it would have been balanced from the start. They’re just guessing at numbers and figures, taking feedback from us.
So if i get this right,
Devs dont know what balance is, expirienced players also dont know what balance is. But on the other hand, ppl with rank <10 (less then hour in pvp) perfectly know what balance is???
Come on you cant be serious….
Something magical happens when you reach rank 30. It is like reaching enlightenment. The game is no longer a shallow playground for cheap thrills but a deep strategic arena for the mind. Tactics that used to thwart your attempts at fun become exciting opportunities to express your style and skill. New understandings bloom and you can’t get enough.
Be brave. Stick with it. We’re waiting for you.
QFT
Other then that, I’ll give my car to first person who publish SS with one hit kill proof (one hit from full HP to downed state) from 2nd or 3rd round of any tPvP 5v5 game.
But Frenzy with the auto attack on the axe will do so much more damage.
And most important, you can move at same time.
So you’re using Sword Shield and Mace Shield?
On a serious note though, Axe + Mace and Mace + Shield or Sword + Shield already does this. Except it actually kills people faster since it actually has DPS to back up the crowd control it brings. And you have to have killing power in order to be effective whether as an initiator or a carry.
Yea if you need cc + burst go with Axe + Mace / Mace + Shield.
If you need mobility + cc + burst go with Axe + Mace / Sword + Shield.
it isn´t because it´s really easy to block or dodge it
Its easier to dodge pistolwhip (you dont even need to dodge roll, just walk out due to long starting animation) and backstab, yet they got nerfed
Ok so, if i understand you:
“it’s easier to dodge the attack of invisible opponent (attack that can not be seen or even predicted). On the other hand its impossible to dodge attack from rooted opponent (that opponent can not move, and in addition, he take 50% more dmg)”
Well, as many times read, it sounds more stupid to me.
Just because the patch didn’t change much with Warrior, DOES NOT mean they can’t be OP. They have been ridiculous since Beta and Anet has done nothing to limit them in any way. They have the best of everything: damage (with those gimmicky frenzy burst builds), 18k starting health, highest armor, ranged weapons with good abilities. I mean, what’s the point to playing any other class if the Warrior can do their job equally or better? Honestly, it doesn’t make any sense to playing anything else.
Are you talking about GW2? Did you ever played this game?
I do not think so (Judging by what you’ve written)
This is my favorite CC / Burst build.
intothemists.com/calc/?build=-s7BCxFCVKVP0S4oL-60;9;49TT;04;034B08A;46BH2CF04sV2DsV2D5Bw
(edited by Moderator)
In my humble opinion the best quick-fix for the whole problem would be to introduce single/duo queue free tournaments (or just single games) with a strong matchmaking mechanic.
Best regards Pray
Great post and this part is a great idea. Simple, quick solution while they iron out a good ladder system. This way, queues will still be somewhat quick since many many people queue solo or with 1 other friend, and you won’t have to get throat punched in Khylo anymore!
You can already do this.
Cheers.
insert random rant along with the hint that mocking your community while disregarding/misinterpreting a constructive post is kind of antisocial behaviour
No, you can not already do this.
Speaking of misinterpretation, everyone here must have. He is telling you, you can que for free tournaments by yourself, I do it all the time.
You can pug free tournaments.
Pug free tournaments.
Both of you (John and EoNxBoNx) should read again, and if you do not understand, read again and again (until you start to realize what we are discussing here).
Yes we all know that we can solo queue and play free tournament, and believe me that is the main reason for this thread.
So, if you still did not understand us, I do not think you’ll ever figure it out, so im gona try to sum all this in just few words:
- Please separate full teams from pugs, and add some kind of intelligent match making system (that is what ruining this game atm, besides of already known bugs and disbalance).
- There is no fun at all (on both sides) whenyou face pug against well armed and coordinated team.
(no one will learn anything (because of too big skill difference))
p.s. I and four of my friends have bought this game on the first pre-purchase day. Is it necessary to say that they are all gone (disappointed) to play something else (mostly WoW )?
Moderator edit: removed excess caps
(edited by Moderator)