Guild Wars 2

^However, awesome player+meta>awesome player without meta. Like I said, the meta itself is ok, its the mindset that’s the problem.

I also want to point out something else. If you look at the meta builds in PvP, they’re very different in philosophy to PvE. They have their weaknesses as well as strengths and I dare say there’s no one meta build that’s better than everything else.

That’s a good, fluid meta. It keeps mind open and acts a template for you to edit and adjust to make it your own. It also forces you to understand why it’s meta.

In PvE, the mind set is that there is a single solution. Everyone aims to play exactly a certain way and it makes people into zombies.

It’s not their fault. It’s down to the game itself. Making an optimised build for most of the dungeons in the game is a one variable equation: DPS. Everything revolves around DPS or group DPS because you should aim for needing nothing else.

This is different for PvP because there’s other variables. Condition clease, flexibility, survival, mobility and other things are involved in the core considerations of a build. It’s not there in such prominence in PvE.

I’m going to get slightly emotional here and say that I’m disappointed. The trinity’s biggest flaw to me was that it reduced the variables of the equation and created a dead meta where there a single best solution exists. I thought GW2 would get rid of that, but instead it entrenched it and made it fat worse. It’s lamentable.

Rukh.9287:

People in this game seem to still think they’re playing WoW and expect every skill on their bar to be useful in some dps meta button jamming puzzle. Its like people who use a knockback skill on cooldown just because it’s on their bar. You already have single-target damage. It doesn’t seem to occur to them that the evade might actually be the point. An AoE skill on a largely single-target weapon set might be the point. Kiting bleeds on a monster that would otherwise rip your face off might be the point.

If you played WoW, you would actually start thinking of other uses for your skills. It’s GW2 that promotes the DPS or nothing philosophy in PvE because in most dungeons in GW2, everyone is basically DPS and thats it.

An evade of 1/4 seconds with an awkward pre and aftercast is anything but reliable.

If I wanted to AoE, I’ll switch to a bow or sword. Thieves don’t have CDs on their skills so the second weapon is there for it, not for rotation’s sake.

Anierna.6918:

kitten Impact. You were perfect until that end part, quoted below:

Impact.2780:

At least, this is how it is in PvP, and probably general PvE. The confusion comes from elitist PVEers, who test builds and team compositions designed for quick dungeon completions. Each of those elitist guilds finds what they believe to be the best, and tries to both prove it with recordings and force it upon the rest of the community by declaring it “the meta”.

Edit: Actually having thought more about it, I think instead of looking for the popular build, people are now starting to look to certain players who have proven their ability in the dying/dead meta specifically to ‘create/find the next meta build’, and that once they declare it or are seen using a new build, that becomes the new meta for that class. That, I think is a daft way to think. But hey, it doesn’t really matter. If you disagree with the notion, just don’t do it, and leave the rest to sheep it up.

I mean: keep it up.

There IS a PvE meta. It does exist. For any particular dungeon path, there is an optimal party composition in respect to professions, and there are optimal builds (meaning traits, weps, gear, runes, sigils) for those professions for that particular path. These meta group comps are showcased in recorded speedruns, many of which are on gwscr.com. The meta builds used in these speedruns are published in guides on the profession subforums, YouTube, gw2guru, etc.

For non-optimal situations, such as a “p1, zerk only, ping gear or kick – no necro/engi” LFG group, meta group comps and builds still usually work, even if there is no TeamSpeak. Tactics used in these situations usually closely immitate meta gwscr tactics. Builds used in these situations are usually identicle/very similar to meta builds. And although these non-optimal runs are slower than the guild runs we record for gwscr.com, they are undoubtedly faster than a non-meta, no-particular-comp party would have been.

The only time when meta builds do not work is when party DPS is ridiculously low. Generally, if you gear-check the party for zerk, then meta-builds and group comps will work well and speed up the run. If you are the only zerker in a party of 4x PVT/clerics/magis bearbows/necros/staff guards, your meta build and gear will get you killed, and the 4 noobs in your party will be too stupid to implement or even comprehend meta tactics.

You see, the meta is fine until it makes people close their minds towards new ideas. It’s all good running an optimal build, but when the meta becomes twisted to promote a mindset of ‘this is the best and if you got any new ideas, you’re wrong.’ it becomes a problem.

GW2 just seems to facilitate that problem more than other games. Maybe its the snail-paced balancing, the shallow combat system, or the locked skills. Something, but that mentality of ‘if you’re not running meta you’re definitely wrong’ is just spewing everywhere.

petyr baelish.9675:

Running most of the old dungeons is pretty rewarding.
Right now you’re complaining about rewards for AC. Seriously? Just shut the kitten up.

Ah, I was wondering when debates are going to descent into verbal abuse! Come, let me put some water on that burn of yours.

Since we’re down to one-liner arguments, let me bring mine then.

I think its a well-known problem at this point that rewards as a whole in GW2 is a bit of a problem, especially given that there’s a direct link between dollars and gold provided by Anet.

^ I was simply having a rough calc based on DKey’s number in her guide above. The d/f section was assumed with only 1 stack of the trail on d/f ticking. Each extra stack ticking adds 1.2 coefficient to your 25-30 rotation, equating about 3% DPS.

Most enemies in dungeons will have 2+ stacks ticking on them, fractals not so much so because you get more smaller enemies but you probably don’t want LH for fractals anyways.

Base DPS with strength runes on d/f is 12578. I’m going to take that number instead of running a DPS calc because otherwise I don’t know the exact assumptions behind it so I can’t compare to the LH numbers if I didn’t. So, then 12578*1.03=12955, which is 1% less than a s-LH build.

3/4 second evade is more than enough to dodge attacks with. Thief s/d is famous for having an evade on #3, and that’s 1/2 second.

3 might stacks is about 3% group DPS. Equivalent to 3 vul stacks. d/f stacks 2-3 more vul stacks than s-LH (unless again, against a wall, then its more), so it more or less balances out.

You won’t always have FGS with you, for example, in AC, spider queen is followed by the champion graveling. Its basically 2 bosses right after one another.

Harper.4173:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I picked up FFXIV the other day and the dungeons are, like, super boring. Healer stands at range clicking on bars, tank sits in melee tabbing through targets to make sure everything is on him, everyone else stands on the other side and refreshes their DPS macros every 20 seconds of so.

Is that what people actually want? Replacing the zerk meta with a trinity is just going to make everything 10x more boring and take 10x as long. That’s 100x the headache.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT4czU31lAc

Just gonna leave this here.

And, I don think most of our dungeons, which mostly consists of stacking against a wall and facerolling, is much better then even the beginner FF14 dungeons. because its bascially what you just described, minus the healer and tank part: 5 players refreshing DPS rotations every 30 seconds.

But at least those players have to be awake and decent in order to stay alive. You can bot your rotations in trinity games and it’ll be fine.

Have you ever played a trinity game? Tank and spank is only valid for the most easy of fights, and most of GW2’s bosses. Well, minus the tank part.

Last time I ran CoE, the only skill you needed is to to be able to count to 3 to beat the dungeon.

@ Guang I specifically picked a video by a good commentator that explains all the mechanics. Turn your volume up

FotM is only good if you want obsidian shards. Despite all the supposed buffs.

But then again, everything is unrewarding in GW2 really. Even stuff like AC is equivalent to what? $0.75 (buying gems) for a full run? After a couple hundred runs, I’d rather just throw $0.75 (like how Anet wants it to be) at the game then sit through AC again.

Sauzo.6821:

Xae Isareth.1364:

lunyboy.8672:

This is the most effective stacking/bursting build, though… and trying to adjust your rotation for high DPS while reacting to melee range mobs or players is a very serious rush, but most folks just pick up the hammer and start smashing. It’s personal preference, for sure.

Isn’t s/f the best build for mightstacking?

The problem with s/d is that you don’t adjust your rotation for high DPS, because for most of the fight, all you do is just AA with a hammer. Sure you change your elements a couple of times to proc multipliers or shoot off a discharge, but that’s not exactly adjusting the rotation, because you just halt the rotation and AA until you can resume it.

It’s essentially a rotation of one skill.

I just kind of think every one of the meta setups apart from d/f failed the elementalist from a gameplay point of view. If you aren’t using the elements, you aren’t being an elementalist.

Actually I believe s/f can get a couple more stacks of might than s/d. Just s/d has a bigger fire field which makes it easier.

And you’re right, with s/d you mostly stack might, AA LH and keep up fury. But with staff, you spam 2511121152112115 all while sitting in fire or else you do completely crappy dps. Built right though s/d with LH can do really nice cleaves not to mention FGS dmg.

Basically it’s pick your poison. I personally find staff boring as all hell cause like I said, you camp fire and spam 3 buttons. If I wanted that I would play GS warrior AND have a ton more survivability. Plus from my experience, groups love 25 stacks of might all the time and perma fury. Don’t get me wrong though, when I’m feeling lazy, I too pop in the staff and go autopilot.

And yes Anet did kind of fail but then again, they failed at a lot of this game. Basically the biggest thing is the meta for anything PVE is run full zerker with zerker build. Healing or “tanking” will do nothing but slow the run down and allow for more mistakes since it takes longer to down the stuff.

Before I took a break from GW2 to call Wildstar a home for a while, I mainly used d/f. It’s DPS is negligibly similar to ye olde fury/might s-LH on small targets that don’t move (basically everything in PvE), and much higher on big targets or against a wall, pumps out more vulnerability, gives an extra fire field/evade and is not dependent on having access to your LH (I mainly PUG).

You do lose a blast finisher for that though, but if you really want to catch up with it, you can swap Burning Speed further down a bit and LH it, since you don’t need that 2nd LH anyways.

Churning Earth would be amazing if Anet didn’t get rid of the old BWE AI where mobs would run out of AoEs. I don’t understand why wouldn’t they to be honest, I’m not a programmer but I can’t imagine it would be that hard to code in ‘if being hit by the following skills, move away’.

Zach.3264:

I just asked someone in SPvP why they play Meta build and not make their own build and the reply I got was;

“WHY WOULD I NOT PLAY META <innapropriate name here>?”

Why do these people even play the game? Where’s the fun in taking the game seriously and just copying everyone else. Some people genuinely forget that games are for enjoyment….

MMOs have become far from just for enjoyment. Back in 2D runescape or the old MUDs or something, maybe, but optimisation have become a part of the genre, and the games themselves push for it by balancing encounters around an optimised setup.

Even GW2 does this. It didn’t use to but Anet started putting hard DPS checks everywhere.

What then happens is the breeding of a mentality to be optimal. The metabuilds everyone uses are optimal. So everyone uses the metabuilds.

Conditions are useless in group PvE already. You want to make it even more useless?

You also have to remember that not every class has access to every condition. So say, something which is immune to bleed would make warrior condition builds useless on it.

If this was pokemon or TSW with its open class system and 500+ skills, this might work, but in GW2, with its very restricted character customisation, you’re just shutting builds out.

Harper.4173:

I keep seeing " teach the AI this " and " make the AI do that" but is it really that simple?

It’s not simple. Making a good MMO isn’t simple. If it’s simple, everyone would have done it.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I picked up FFXIV the other day and the dungeons are, like, super boring. Healer stands at range clicking on bars, tank sits in melee tabbing through targets to make sure everything is on him, everyone else stands on the other side and refreshes their DPS macros every 20 seconds of so.

Is that what people actually want? Replacing the zerk meta with a trinity is just going to make everything 10x more boring and take 10x as long. That’s 100x the headache.

Just gonna leave this here.

And, I don think most of our dungeons, which mostly consists of stacking against a wall and facerolling, is much better then even the beginner FF14 dungeons. because its bascially what you just described, minus the healer and tank part: 5 players refreshing DPS rotations every 30 seconds.

Darox.8069:

Well yes, that’s what I have always said ^^

In fact it used to be higher than S+LH even using pessimistic assumptions. The Ferocity change hit DF hard though, but we were given one more dodge and one more blast finisher.

Interesting. I’ll probably try it out more once I return to GW2, on Wildstar for now until the next balance patch.

Actually, I’ve always wondered something. Why does the rotation use flamewall and burning speed at the same time? Would using BS after FW to keep up fire fields and possibly blast it with a LH/compensate for delayed mightstack combos (cos its a shock to me as well but there are actually some bosses in GW2 which I can’t fight with my blindfold on) be a huge DPS loss or something?

Edit: nvm, I see why now. Was being silly.

lunyboy.8672:

This is the most effective stacking/bursting build, though… and trying to adjust your rotation for high DPS while reacting to melee range mobs or players is a very serious rush, but most folks just pick up the hammer and start smashing. It’s personal preference, for sure.

Isn’t s/f the best build for mightstacking?

The problem with s/d is that you don’t adjust your rotation for high DPS, because for most of the fight, all you do is just AA with a hammer. Sure you change your elements a couple of times to proc multipliers or shoot off a discharge, but that’s not exactly adjusting the rotation, because you just halt the rotation and AA until you can resume it.

It’s essentially a rotation of one skill.

I just kind of think every one of the meta setups apart from d/f failed the elementalist from a gameplay point of view. If you aren’t using the elements, you aren’t being an elementalist.

Iris Ng.9845:

Look at it this way. If you play staff when solo AC or low-manning Arah, it is pretty challenging.

I wasn’t really talking about challenge, I was talking about what you would do to optimise it. You forgo changing elements completely in a fight, which is the whole point to playing an ele. Without the elements, you stop being an elementalist, you turn into a boring class without the mechanic that defines it.

I’m just starting to doubt if they actually have a balancing team at all or do they just check the calendar and go ‘oh boy, it’s that time of the year again, Rob, your turn this time!’ followed by a deep sigh from Rob.

Hmmm, staff isn’t that great looking at DKey’s guide. I mean, she’s very good at what she does so I don’t really doubt those numbers.

But like I said, I just can’t use staff because I question why am I playing a GS warrior with even less skills to use. Optimisation is one thing but turning GW2 into MapleStory is another.

Harper.4173:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Harper.4173:

Bri.8354:

I’d really like to have a clear writeup of the intended design for each profession. Since release most of the information has been sloppy, contradictory, and occasionally out of line with what we see in game or in the patch notes.

Also a few other questions I feel need answered:

How is the ranger considered a sustained damage profession when most of its mechanics are about burst damage, not sustained? The greatsword has three burst damage skills. 2 of the signets support burst damage. Path of scars is burst damage. Opening strike is burst damage. Had the best quickness access before trait reorganization (still has decent). Moment of clarity is burst damage. And so on.

What exactly is your definition of sustained damage? If a thief can use repeat backstabs and heartseekers are those sustained or burst attacks? Hundred blades does many multiple hits without a very long cool-down, is this considered burst or sustained?

How does your profession design model fit into every area of the game? When you talk about the professions it seems like your doing so from a mostly PvP perspective, but how do you balance their strengths and weaknesses around a PvE environment when many balance factors are less important to non-existent?

They don’t balance PVE. Anyone can win in PVE. With anything.
The balance in that aspect of the game is very loose at best.

That doesn’t mean you don’t balance it. You can win with anything, but there’s obviously the optimal things to win with. If you don’t balance that, it goes out of control and everyone just uses one build, which makes the game rather boring.

That’s what happens no matter how much you balance. It’s called creating and playing a meta.
Playing the same thing over and over because it’s the best. It appears not because the game isn’t balanced but because players want rewards quickly.

You don’t just go ‘oh well, it’s the meta’, you keep the meta in constant flux, you create multiple metas each with their different uses in different parts of the game. If you end up with a meta which is perfect in every aspect of the game, that’s a wake up call that you screwed it up.

Theres nothing in PvE which benefits having more than 1200 range. Nothing at all, and I can’t imagine how they can make it beneficial, especially given the radius of boon application.

So that should not be factored into balancing PvE.

Lace.9472:

Carighan.6758:

Quite weird though to talk about the “ranged DPS” of a Ranger. You’re in PvE, no one is supposed to be at range. What are you doing there in the first place? O.o

Darox.8069:

Staff ele:
- target moves => 60% less dps
- target moves and changes directions => 100% less dps
- need to do anything else than damage => 100% less dps for 13 seconds

Just stating the facts.
The problem comes from encounter designs

I guess my question here is:
Is it AN’s intention for all PVE (especially dungeons) to be melee focused?
In which case
Why the hell is ranged combat not catered for in core gameplay AI?

Obviously, for Ele AoE and massive superior ranged damage, the AI aren’t going to move out of it. Due to LOS/Stack/AFK dungeon meta.

Is that an intended design? then Why is it an intended design?

From what I heard, the AI was massively toned down during BWE because everyone whined.

Darox.8069:

Staff ele:
- target moves => 60% less dps
- target moves and changes directions => 100% less dps
- need to do anything else than damage => 100% less dps for 13 seconds

Just stating the facts.
The problem comes from encounter designs

That’s the problem though. For almost everything which actually matters (in terms of rewards, it’s a MMO afterall), enemies are idiots, encounters are trivial, meaning enemies don’t move. It’s gonna take a world of work on Anet’s part to change that (we missed a year of opportunities with the temporary mess that was LS S1), so at this point, I’m thinking ‘bad’ encounter designs are a part of the game.

^ that’s interesting. Most mobs would get seared by 2 stacks of the trail at once, and each full extra stack increase your DPS around 3% depending on rotation, which would mean your DPS with d/f is actually pretty neglibly close to s/f with a hammer.

Also, unless I’m tripping balls, it also stacks up vulnerability, so in some situations its actually better than a staff in DPS.

^ what risk? Mobs don’t move out of AoEs in this game, mages aren’t rooted on cast for most spells, and you’re at 1200 range if you want to be. The only rooted spell in the staff setup is meteor shower.

Staff needs to be toned down really. Even amongst ele’s own weapon sets, it doesnt make any sense.

It’s the easiest rotation to master (spamming AA and 2 more skills off CD, don’t even need to change attunement, so complex), it has the longest range, and it has the highest DPS under optimal party buffs. That’s the very definition of being overpowered.

Depends on what you want to do in WvW. If you wanna go zerg vs zerg, staff is great, because you probably won’t take too much direct beating and your telegraphs gets lost in the chaos.

But if you want to roam, staff isn’t that good, because its too polarised of a weapon, and all your damaging attacks are way too easy to avoid in a 1v1.

Clumsy.6257:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I’m reading this conversation and Im just thinking is quite lamentable that everything apart form DPS is pointless in this game. Reads like a complete failure in game design.

Your problem is that your comparing GW2 to a completely different type of game. Your typical trinity-based mmorpg isn’t action-based. In action based games, the trinity is replaced with CC, support, and dps. If you think stacking and DPSing is the only tactic then you’ll fail miserably at everything outside of the easiest dungeons.

You see, the problem is that at its core, GW2 offers very little outside of the easiest dungeons. Sure, you got fotm and Arah P4, but what’s the point in running those? They give even less in terms of rewards than the easiest dungeons, so currently, GW2 in the eyes of most players is just stack and DPS.

Action MMOs are very free in terms of what they constitute. You got the complete free for all of Vindictus where no one is responsible for anything other than landing the beatdown on the boss, to Neverwinter where from what I’ve seen, there’s a solid trinity.

Anyways, I wasn’t comparing it to a trinity anyways. In fact the trinity is something which linearises builds by giving full responsibility of an aspect of the game to one person, and that responsibility only. In GW2, you should have to consider defense as well as offense when it comes to buildcrafting, instead of everyone building their characters like pure or support DPS.

I think the point I want to make is that if your friend asks you ‘hey, hows the dungeons in GW2 like?’ and you answer ‘we stack in a corner and faceroll everything.’

Is that going to make him want to buy the game?

Cries Of Sorrow.5864:

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

Cries Of Sorrow.5864:

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

Well if your team goes into a dungeon for the first time then it never hurts to bring some healing. I used to run a full clerics D/D build, add in 4 zerker warriors. Didn’t need to stop dps to rez even once throughout the dungeon run. This meant that the zerker warriors could all focus on what they were best at, might stacking and zerking while I would weave through atunements healing, booning and CCing mobs.

4 zerker warriors 1 clerics d/d ele? Now i’ve seen it all, i seriously hope you dont actually think you kept them alive lol, what a waste. And no warriors are not best at “zerking” and “used to” probably before feature patch: Warriors weren’t as good at group stacking might either if they also had super leet dps. And guess what? Ele did it better aswell just as how ele does better “zerking” as you described.
Once again “standard d/d build” is not good “Dps” all traits are literally picked for survival

You’re not carrying anyone in a “healing build” please stop it’s hurting my eyes.

Question no. 1:
Have you ever been to HotW with 4 warriors who were all pure zerker?

Question no. 2:
Do you have an elementalist with maxxed out healing power?

Also since your reply makes you seem uneducated as to what the situation was like in that dungeon with the 4 zerker warriors and me full clerics D/D build (not a ‘healer build’ but a standard D/D build with clerics gear). I will tell you what I remember from that particular dungeon run:
1. there was no stacking anywhere.
2. This was well over a year ago, elementalist healing wasn’t nerfed as badly as it is now.
3. 2 of the 4 zerker warriors claimed they could stack 25 might permanently.
4. the run was very fast, not sure about the exact time though.

in hindsight my comment about something that happened a year ago is completely outdated for this particular thread
sorry for that.

The warriors would not need a healer, asuming they dodged, hell it could’ve been easily solo’d if the bosses werent so borderline boring (failed to state path).

Full healing power is a waste your dps will be low as hell.
Or do you need healing power to do cc? Lol.
If my comment makes me seem uneducated why the kitten are you advocating healing builds? Let me be the judge of my actions on this.
Sorry but over a year ago we stacked, the run was very fast, well once again no path stated not that it matters, it coudln’t have been super fast in that comp anyway. Once again “standard d/d build” is not good “Dps” all traits are literally picked for survival.

No really even a 14/14/14/14/14 build can deal more damage than 0 10 0 30 30.

I’m reading this conversation and Im just thinking is quite lamentable that everything apart form DPS is pointless in this game. Reads like a complete failure in game design.

Harper.4173:

Bri.8354:

I’d really like to have a clear writeup of the intended design for each profession. Since release most of the information has been sloppy, contradictory, and occasionally out of line with what we see in game or in the patch notes.

Also a few other questions I feel need answered:

How is the ranger considered a sustained damage profession when most of its mechanics are about burst damage, not sustained? The greatsword has three burst damage skills. 2 of the signets support burst damage. Path of scars is burst damage. Opening strike is burst damage. Had the best quickness access before trait reorganization (still has decent). Moment of clarity is burst damage. And so on.

What exactly is your definition of sustained damage? If a thief can use repeat backstabs and heartseekers are those sustained or burst attacks? Hundred blades does many multiple hits without a very long cool-down, is this considered burst or sustained?

How does your profession design model fit into every area of the game? When you talk about the professions it seems like your doing so from a mostly PvP perspective, but how do you balance their strengths and weaknesses around a PvE environment when many balance factors are less important to non-existent?

They don’t balance PVE. Anyone can win in PVE. With anything.
The balance in that aspect of the game is very loose at best.

That doesn’t mean you don’t balance it. You can win with anything, but there’s obviously the optimal things to win with. If you don’t balance that, it goes out of control and everyone just uses one build, which makes the game rather boring.

babazhook.6805:

>>It should either play as a hybrid set, which honestly I think p/d does better, and make it hit more reliable because the bleed stacks/duration are fine, or lower the bleed duration a lot and make it a full evade but still have it move more reliably

I would not lower duration at all. I would keep the same bleed stacks the same costs and increase the evade to one half second. The time to cast would be lowered to 1/4 second.

Power stab has cleave for three targets and higher damage and would have a full second evade, DB would have the aoe and higher bleeds with a lower evade duration albeit able to use it consecutively for ini.

The problem I got with it being some sort of a hybrid weapon is that it just contradicts with the rest of D/D skills. Look at a ‘proper’ hybrid set-up for example: warrior s/s.

You can keep applying bleed or torment, damaging conditions mixed in with direct damage because most of the skills are based around that concept.

With d/d, at least in PvE, the moment you stop spamming D/B, it becomes not hybrid. Poison isn’t a direct damage condition, its purpose is to hinder healing, not do a buttload of hurt like bleed or torment. So in other words, the way you’re supposed use d/d is to just spam DB over and over again and that’s it? That doesn’t sound right.

Harper.4173:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Harper.4173:

snip

You think challenge isnt nessecary in a MMO? Go do this, make a MMO where you get everything by pressing a button that says ‘Win’, and see how popular it is.

Look at the market, look at what hype train everyone is on right now: Wildstar. What does Wildstar sell itself on? Raids, and bringing back the challenging environment of vanilla WoW.

The reason you don’t see anyone wanting challenge in this game is because Anet screwed it up. They failed the most basic thing in making a MMO: balancing rewards. No one would bother with challenge for no reason but like what I said before, if you make a MMO where there’s zero challenge, it’ll be a flop.

Fun fact – MMO games that use the " press here to win" method are already very successful – see Farmville and its spin-off.

Hell – no challenge content exist in GW2 like maha pointed out. It’s called afk tagging, zerging bosses in champ trains and doing EOTM. Why do you think players keep doing it?

I didn’t say challenge is not necessary – but I am trying to point out that the majority don’t want too much challenge in their game.
And while it might be challenge that brings players to the game or content it’s rewards that keep them playing.

Rarely do players keep doing the same thing or playing the same game for “the challenge”.

A challenge is a challenge for as long as it takes you to overcome it. After that it becomes trivial. So you need something to keep the player coming back. That something is rewards.

I didn’t say the game has or should have zero challenge, just that you can’t rework the entire game and make it super challenging.

Also there are tiers of players. Something I might find challenging other players might find impossible. Or something I feel is too easy might be just right for others.

How challenging the content is is determined by how the majority of the player base responds to it. That determination is done via in-game metrics not by a few players posting on the forums.

The players on the forums are a minority and not even a representative one for the whole player base of GW2.

Then let me ask you, why has no AAA titles ever marketed themselves as ‘you get free loot, you always win!’?

Did you ever hear Colin going ‘yeah our philosophy for GW2 is you just afk and you get stuff.’ People keep playing that stuff because it gives you loot, more loot than almost anything else you can do. I very much doubt players like running the champ train ‘and go wow, this is truly a next gen MMO experience.’, and I don’t think Anet likes it either. The QD nerfs and the pavilion chamge can tell you as much.

When you first look at a MMO, do you look at ‘hey lets see how easy I can get loot here!’ or do you look at the game play? I look at the latter. If you don’t have engaging gameplay, you won’t have a good game.

Farmville exists. But for thats for a different target audience, and as a different type of entertainment. that formula won’t work here. I don’t think I need to explain why.

I never said anything about reworking the game. I just said the AI needs to be improved. That’s basically like a Spider Queen change across the broad. No mechanics are changed, the general format and structure of everything remains the same, I don’t call that reworking the entire game or even making it super challenging.

Staff is probably the highest DPS in a dungeon in a general sense. The fact that it has no utility doesn’t really matter in most dungeons because this game is a faceroll, with zero skill required for most of its instanced content.

My main problem with the staff is just that its so boring to play. I made an elementalist to play an elementalist, not a ranged GS-camping warrior with even less skills to use.

Harper.4173:

snip

You think challenge isnt nessecary in a MMO? Go do this, make a MMO where you get everything by pressing a button that says ‘Win’, and see how popular it is.

Look at the market, look at what hype train everyone is on right now: Wildstar. What does Wildstar sell itself on? Raids, and bringing back the challenging environment of vanilla WoW.

The reason you don’t see anyone wanting challenge in this game is because Anet screwed it up. They failed the most basic thing in making a MMO: balancing rewards. No one would bother with challenge for no reason but like what I said before, if you make a MMO where there’s zero challenge, it’ll be a flop.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Dual.8953:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Dual.8953:

The meta players say "we have tons of build variety.
Then I get on my Thief and see all are as close to 6/6/0/0/2 as possible (the only deviations are 5/6/0/0/3 and 5/6/0/3/0, and they’re for Thieves who want to run at tad safer at the cost of some damage), Shadow Arts, our most supportive line is considered useless.

Utility choices? If we’re skipping, stealth. If we’re fighting, Signet passives.
Venoms, Traps and Tricks are all considered useless.
Weapon Choices?
Skipping is Shortbow
Trash Mobs and Adds is Sword/Pistol
Boss is Dagger/Dagger

The most optimal way to play the most mobile class in the game in PvE is to move as little as possible, only dodge when necissary. Rukittengnet build and just DPS.
The skips are there but they’re more just a one not trick.

Let’s move onto Runes, this game as tons of them. What’s optimal?
Scholar and Strength. The meta only allows for a runeset that is basically a glorified ruby orb and the rune set that has been so overbuffed that it’s the taken over PvP and PvE. (And is likely due for a nerf, then we’ll be back down two one rune set. Oh joy, glad I don’t have to think about that)

Build diversity in the meta my kitten.

What game’s meta has build “diversity” that does not consist of tank build, heals build and the one best DPS build for one’s class? That’s not diversity, it’s enforced roles.

Well tell that do the meta guys saying “we have tons of diversity in the meta”.

They can read, hopefully. That said, there is a lot more build diversity in the GW2 non-meta than you’ll find in those other games.

When you start talking about non-meta, balance just goes out of the window as you get lost in play-how-you-want land. I’d even say GW2 has less diversity even there because simply, our weapon skills are locked where as in most other games, they aren’t, allowing you to pull off more random combinations of non-meta builds.

I’d say they should lower the DPS on fire and buff the DPS on other elements on staff, because there’s two things I see that doesnt add up on a staff for PvE:

1. Ranged weapons should not in any circumstance have higher potential DPS than melee.

2. You should not be encouraged to camp one element.

Harper.4173:

7) News: PVE is a complete faceroll. With the exception of maybe 5% of content you can roll through the game with no knowledge of basic mechanics or understanding of your class and still win.

They balance the game so that it retains some form and structure and keeps most discrepancies to a minimum.
It isn’t 100% instawin because people like to feel like they actually fought something : hence huge HP bars on damage sponge bosses that pose little to no threat at all.

You like being challenged? So do I – but that gets old quick. It takes the challenge loving players a little time before they adapt and beat the content – then what?

Please don’t take forum complaints as the general trend of the GW2 community – very few read and post on here. For every player complaining that the game is too easy there are numerous others doing afk crown pavilion, semi-afk champion trains or karma training in EoTM.

People who want a challenge are the minority and even then after the first few times they’ll go look for something else.

You’re right about heroes and obstacles – but in GW2 90% of obstacles are just cardboard figures that stand there for you to knock them over and most players just imagine themselves the hero. The challenge is there but it’s very very small.

8)Anet doesn’t have to say anything. The state of the content says everything. 90% of the open world is complete faceroll. Ask anyone who’s been here since the beta weekends. Ask veteran players. Does anyone consider open world content a challenge these days?

Regarding Wurm and Teq – those are raids set in the open world and are most definitely not aimed at the casual players. They’re aimed at the organized groups that like this sort of stuff.
It’s there for everyone but it wasn’t created for everyone. The average player will only slay teq with an organized group from TTS or some other large community that’s actually doing things on a different level.

Teq and Wurm aren’t something you can just show up for 5 minutes before and fight through.

Also – even in those fights the most successful communities have managed a system : you have a few players ( 3-4 ) as commanders calling the shots while 80-90% of others only mash their #1 key when they’re told where they’re told.

It took TTS and other communities to break down Teq into bite sized things for each player to do in order for the average player to beat those fights. It’s as simple as " you do this when we tell you and it’ll all be good".

9) That bored state – most good players have become bored already. I’m also running out of things to do.
Not all content but MOST content in GW2 is supposed to be common denominator proof.

I’m just going to ask how do you know players that want challenge are a minority? Have you got statistics? If you do please share, otherwise all I see from your post is heavy assertion of your own views on everyone else. I’m sorry if that comes across as rude but that’s what Im seeing.

I don’t think people enjoy afk pav, or afk eotm. If I enjoy afk I’ll just stop playing the game.

Regarding Teq and Wurm: they’re in the open world. Mid level zones at that. You can’t exclude people, you can’t kick players out of the map, so I would think Anet had everyone in mind when they made it, because otherwise how do you exclude the people they weren’t made for?

Breaking things down into bite-sized bits is basically the essence of raiding. That’s why you got raid leaders in every game, and they don’t just go ‘right guys, strategy is we win, everyone clear?’

Your last point baffles me completely. So you’re bored, apparently according to you most good players are bored, but then also according to you, the current state of the game is perfect? What.

Harper.4173:

“Zerker or screw off” isn’t related to gear – it’s related to player mentality. You might as well replace it with meta or screw off and that’s exactly what it will be if you manage to replace the “zerker meta” with something else.

You can’t change the elitist mentality. That always exists in MMOs no matter what you do. So the only thing you can do is play along with it and make the meta include a lot more variables than just DPS.

Currently the game rewards high skill with better clear times via berserker gear. Content is easy to complete in any other gear set ( sometimes mindnumbingly so) and with almost any classes.

If the ultimate aim for every player is to complete everything with full zerker, and traited for pure DPS, what’s the point of the other gear types and the other 70% of our traits then?

This is the “play how you want” model at its best. This is the most freedom we’ll get in game.

If this is changed people will be forced into “roles” in the new meta.

How else are you supposed to create roles then? Players want roles. Anet clearly wants roles because we got classes that they gave roles to and balances around those roles. If you then just go ‘well, nothing apart from DPS is really needed’, that just goes out of the window and roles won’t exist.

You mention the critical damage changes – they were done for a few reasons :

To normalize critical damage across different item pieces.

Admittedly, yes.

To change the way critical damage scales by creating a number ( ferocity) it scales off.

15 ferocity =1% crit damage. Having gear which has say, 30 ferocity basically equates to it having 3% crit damage under the old system. I don’t see the difference.

To counter the power creep created with the introduction of full ascended gear.

Ascended gear gave basically next to no difference in stats apart from the weapons, and even then it was 5%

It was not done to “nerf zerker” as ALL CRITICAL DAMAGE WAS CHANGED. Which means non zerker-builds lost nearly as much if not more dps than full zerker builds.

‘As we work to increase support and teamwork between players throughout the game, we examined how we could change critical damage to retain it as a fun and viable approach to build-making while also allowing other builds to shine.’

allowing other builds to shine

I like how you ( and others) are trying to prove to yourselves ( and others) that the critical damage update is a clear indication that things are changing the way you want them to. They are not.
It wasn’t a “fix zerker” solution, it was aimed at the things I posted above.

You can’t copy PvP in PVE because:

1) PVP has players – real players that have actual human-grade intelligence. You can’t code that into AI- it will always be worse or exploitable.

It won’t be as good as the best PvPers, but it certainly isn’t restricted to ‘get in line of sight and use random skills’ like our AI now.

2)PVP is for PVP players, PVE is for everyone. That’s right – PVE is the place where even the slowest, most unknowledgeable player can go and feel like " the hero " – that’s why we have PVE – to feel like heroes in a fantasy world.
How would the majority of the player base like it if they were now being stomped in dungeons by PVP-grade NPCs?

If they wanted to make PvE a complete faceroll, why have balance at all? Why not just make every skill do so much damage the player is like a human nuclear warhead?

Also, that’s completely your view. PvE isn’t supposed to be complete faceroll, and many of us want to be challenged. The fact that people complain things are too easy tells you that.

Heck, you won’t even feel like a hero without challenge. Name one hero who hasn’t gone through trials. who hasn’t struggled with the odds against him. It’s the process of overcoming obstacles that makes you a hero.

3)Because of point 2 PVE is stuck in a situation where there have to be not a lot of things to dodge so the average Wannabe hero Joe manages to dodge them all, or at least some and not die. That means that the much better at dodging player will breeze right on through content that was created for the common denominator.
There’s harder content in the game – where you can’t dodge it all – see high level fractals.

Is this your view or did Anet actually say ‘we create our PvE content to be complete faceroll’? Looking at Teq/Wurm, that’s not created for the lowest denominator, otherwise we wouldn’t fail them so much. They’re in fact open world content, so its created for everyone.

No one in MMO development creates content for the lowest denominator, not even the F2Ps with their 2-year life cycles. that’s bound to create a commercial screw-up for you because people will easily get bored.

DEKeyzToChaos.7381:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Just curious, in the d/f section, how many ‘stacks’ of its trail are you assuming hits the target?

One stack for four (untraited) or six (traited) ticks, as if it were used in the open with a boss that’s not running around a lot.

Ah I see. I was wondering how much DPS it would add if you walled it. How many stacks does it lay down in total?

And if you could remember (or kept the data around) what was your total coefficient for a 30 second rotation for D/F?

Thanks

Vargamonth.2047:

Xae Isareth.1364:

The problem I feel is that the combat in the game was designed for an action-MMO but the content was designed like a traditional MMO.

The combat at its core is fast paced, with a lot of mobility, and dodging is plenty.

The fights in PvE are slow-paced, with little movement.

Its contradictory. they need to make PvE more like PvP, where attacks are faster, enemies have a lot more mobility, plus of course a bigger need for utilities other than DPS.

That would kill two birds with one stone. It would allow builds to be more diverse by having players consider more variables than just DPS, and also allow their balancing philosophy of unifying PvE and PvP be actually possible.

I completely agree.
Achieving it, however, seems technicaly impossible. They can probably move a few steps in that direction, but no one should expect an MMO (all the processing done at servers) AI behave like a player, not even like a really bad one.

Well, look at the training NPCs, they seem to have a more advanced AI than your normal mobs, so at least some of good AI is possible. The AI we got now is the most basic of the basic: run into line of sight and use skills at random when off CD.

The problem I feel is that the combat in the game was designed for an action-MMO but the content was designed like a traditional MMO.

The combat at its core is fast paced, with a lot of mobility, and dodging is plenty.

The fights in PvE are slow-paced, with little movement.

Its contradictory. they need to make PvE more like PvP, where attacks are faster, enemies have a lot more mobility, plus of course a bigger need for utilities other than DPS.

That would kill two birds with one stone. It would allow builds to be more diverse by having players consider more variables than just DPS, and also allow their balancing philosophy of unifying PvE and PvP be actually possible.

I don’t know the exact details as for why they don’t use it. but they seem to already have a base for that kind of AI, just looking at the training NPCs in the mists. Why can’t enemies be more like those?

Just curious, in the d/f section, how many ‘stacks’ of its trail are you assuming hits the target?

maha.7902:

It’s not “zerker or screw off”, you are allowed to play exactly what build and gear you want.

ANet “nerfed” it like they did the spider queen because people continued to cry over and over

and over

and over

and over

and over

and over

and over

and over

again about berserker for literally no reason than that their terrible builds aren’t accepted in to faster LFG groups.

Its zerker or screw off if you want to be optimal, a people want to play optimal. If you don’t bother with optimal or not optimal, then you don’t need any balancing to start with because you wouldn’t give a kitten about what’s overpowered or not overpowered.

You have people crying because their builds aren’t accepted, but you also have people complaining because build crafting isn’t very interesting with only 1 variable to consider.

Unless you mean that staring at your trait list and realising most of those traits are utterly pointless in PvE, and then looking at gear choices and realising you should only aim for one is a good thing.

A MMORPG lives and dies by its character customisation and build diversity, because that’s what makes the inevitable doing the same thing over and over less boring.

Harper.4173:

Xae Isareth.1364:

You need that constraint, you need that restriction in order to create a place for certain playstyles. That’s why the trinity has never left MMOs, because no one has found a better way to enforce those restrictions.

The players who play GW2 don’t want constraint or restriction. At least the majority don’t.
If they did they’d be playing other MMOs that enforce the “roles” you’re mentioning.
If GW2 players wanted to be restricted they’d be playing WoW or some other trinity game. The fact that GW2’s fanbase applauded the decision to do away with the trinity and embraced the game because of it means that it is what they want.

Sure, there’s a minority who used to play tank or healer and can’t seem to fit in or find their place but the majority of players are playing and enjoying the game as it is – with no restrictions and no trinity.
If they weren’t enjoying it we would have seen them move to other MMOs that offer what they are looking for.

The only people I’ve seen disappointed by the current system are ex-WoW players that can’t find their long lost niche but who refuse to accept that maybe this isn’t the game for them.

I never said we needed the hard tank-healer-DPS trinity, but if you read the whole post, I explained that unless you input other factors which are necessary into the content, all you’ll get is players piling on DPS.

People wanted to do away with the trinity, but I’m quite sure people didn’t want ‘zerker or screw off’ to replace it.

Even Anet isn’t happy about what we have now. If the system is working as intended, why would they go and nerf crit damage, and explained that it was specifically targeted at PvE?

If you want a solution, just look at how PvP works. Very few people run full zerker in WvW and even less in PvP. Why? You can’t dodge everything, and stuff like boonstrip and condition removal are a lot more useful.

Why can’t we copy that into PvE?

Liewec.2896:

it’d be way too OP :P
imagine dropping 2x meteor shower on a point in pvp? spam 5k crits all over the place!

If someone actually stays in 2x met showers, they deserve to die lol.

In PvE it would be great. But in PvP, its gonna be quite screwy with balance. Imagine 2x firegrab. Ouch.

If only we could either gut PvP from GW2 and make into another game or have PvE-only skills….

2x shield in his slots and 3x retreat on his bar.

I’ve learnt in the past to never get my hopes up with a Korean game. No matter how great it looks on the surface, or how innovative it seems (RIP Vindictus), it always whirlpools down to a grindy pile of poo poo at its center.

Lamuness.3570:

frans.8092:

Meta-builds exist because most peopleare afraid to fail their group.

More like their group will instantly outcast, neuter, ridicule, berate, and otherwise be obscenely offensive to people who don’t run optimal crap.

Neither of those is true really. People play optimized builds because its in their nature to be better and more efficient, and the nature of MMOs promotes that. You don’t see people arguing over what build is the best way to play Skyrim.

Optimal is not ‘crap’. Optimal builds will let you run dungeons faster, that’s a fact.

Balancing exists not because the devs like to screw stuff over every few months but because optimisation is an all-important element of MMOs.

Nike.2631:

Auesis.7301:

Nike.2631:

Actually the existence of a build that is ‘optimal’ (as in superior to all other choices) across a large range of encounters is pretty much a sign that it needs to get stepped on/nerfed because that’s the product of bad design .

Looking realistically at how game balance works, there is always going to be SOMETHING about a class/comp or encounter that is the optimal approach. I hope you’re not proposing a feedback loop where we continuously nerf whatever seems to be the best option in a given circumstance until we’re left with…well, pretty much nothing.

Two things damp down the feedback loop you’re describing…

1. I did say optimal across a large range of encounters. there’s nothing wrong with a build being good against thieves or perfect against a specific dungeon boss. Its when a build is good against 6 out of 8 professions or is perfect against 2-3 entire dungeons. Those are both flags for problems and while some of it can be corrected by boosting the other side of the equation, power creep is just as detrimental to a game’s health as circular nerfing.

2. The real question about optimal builds is how far behind is second place? How about third? You can probably ignore up to about 3% variance, but beyond that, out comes the nerf bat. Then nail sticking up gets a gentle tap. Which is why we all love good diversity – it keeps the nerf bat in its case . Really skillful diversity hides the deep dark secret of all player-determined build systems: The designer wants you to feel cool and powerful while being as absolutely AVERAGE as possible .

1. That’s the exact problem we got in PvE. Pure DPS builds are king in every encounter in PvE, and things like PVT are only used in Teq/Wurm/whatever because the game guts half the equation (ie, you can’t crit) from the fight.

Anet is not boosting the other side of the equation. They know the DPS-DPS-DPS meta is a problem, they want to reduce the zerker meta, so what do they do? Make more content that are DPS-races. I supported Anet, and I still support Anet, but I’m slowly losing faith.

2. That problem only exists because we got this extremely DPS-centric environment. when you only have 1 variable in the equation you will never have diversity. 2 is bigger than 1 in all cases and no balancing will nerf 2 to be equal to 1 without turning everything into stupid.

We don’t love diversity because it keeps the nerfbat in case, we love diversity because doing the same thing over and over gets boring, especially if its something like staff ele where you just spam 2 skills over and over with one extra when its on CD.