Guild Wars 2

Hardest class to play at what?

1v1?

2v1?

Group Fights?

Then we get into the whole Class Balance issue..

a BM Bunker Ranger is much harder to play then a 100b Warrior…but a 100B will lose every single fight with a BM Bunker.

But at the same time, even classes that require about the same amount of skill as a 100B Warrior will also beat that class…. because it has like zero substain in a fight.

Throw a 100B Warrior in a Group Fight, and he’s much better then the Bunker Ranger for example..

MM problem isn’t their pets dying in Zerg Warfare (which sucks), MM problem in WvW is the awful “pathing” they have..

where the pets don’t actually attack

This games pet system is not very good, so if you’re looking for something comparable to WoW you probably won’t find it.

Yea, you tested that yesterday, so its not just buggy tooltip, they broke the ability

Tobias Steele.2071:

Everything>ranger. It’s almost like every single ranger has absolutely no idea how to play the class. It’s underpowered anyway but even so, many many players need to l2p it. No you can’t tank a Zerg with the stupid pet, and no you can’t repeatedly fire barrage at guardians without auto gimping yourself.

Rangers and warriors are noob magnets but warriors are sufficiently useful and easy to use for this not to matter.

Most rangers are bad, and I’d agree with you that Rangers are bottom when it comes to zerging, They are one of the best solo classes in the game though..

I wish IoJ pushed a little harder this matchup, they probably could of stood a good chance at winning

Lord Trejgon.2809:

I know!
god why again….
Bredin from that what did You said seems, that Offhand training trait as many other traits works only while in combat…
but I’m not sure – it require more testing

It worked fine before the last patch..

So they’ve been messing with it, and they obviously broke it.

This matchup was pretty well balanced

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Geff.1930:

Here is how to counter dodge build:

Roll a cheese condition damage build that just lays down condition damage AoEs. Condition damage cannot be dodged/missed/blocked/avoided from invulnerable status/avoided due to line of sight. GG.

If you recall this is supposed to be a skill based esport game. /rolleyes

C’mon Man. “Cheese” condition damage? There isn’t a condi-pressure build in the game that doesn’t take vastly more skill to play effectively than evade Rangers and Thieves. Nades and Marks are skill shots (granted it isn’t that hard to hit them, but timing between dodges for the high value skills can be tricky due to cast/flight times). If you are dying to LB Warriors and consider them “Cheese” or standing in GT AoE’s then I dunno what to say there.

When dodge up time is so high and condition cleanses are available for the dodge spammers it isn’t that easy. Particularly in the case of Rangers that blow off 4 conditions/10s passively while regenning and having the option to drop a 15s water field that also strips condis. Can you kill them eventually? Yes, once you kill their pet (which a competent ranger will make you eat through 2 pets with a well timed swap). It takes FOREVER against an equal skilled player though and it is ridiculously boring.

Killing the Ranger pet works if you have 2 people…It also works if they’re trap build….

Don’t try and kill it 1v1 though if they’re beast unless you can do a high amount of damage quickly, though if you can do that…You’re probably Glass Cannon and you’re going to die anyway to that Ranger.

If you’re going to the back point, Bring a friend is the best advice…

sorrow.2364:

Xsorus.2507:

Yea, its not like I have videos of me playing a Necromancer or anything.

I also never stated it’d give you the same survivability of a thief or ranger, I said its your equiv of Dodge…Its what you’re suppose to use to mitigate damage.

If you go into Deathshroud to spam nukes in a 1v1 you deserve to die…

Use it to negate burst, then pop out of it.

The point is it isn’t even half as effective as endurance regen and dodge spams.
Pretty much because DS doesn’t make you invulnerable to CCs, doesn’t last of a fixed amount of time regardless the amount of damage taken and doesn’t helps you to disengage nor it gives you positional advantage. Also, DS can’t be used on demand because it is locked to a 10s cooldown (5s if you spend 30 points on a traitline) and it lasts (if you do the math) way less than the amount of evading time of any thief or ranger.

Also, you start with 0 LF at the start of the match, you have horrible stunbreakers and no way to defend yourself while building LF to mitigate the bursts.

Also, DS have the best Necro’s skills. Using in solely to mitigate damage is a waste of potential, especially for power Necros.

Xsorus.2507:

Mesmer’s stay up not because of invul, but because they can go invisible multiple times over and over again.

If Mesmer’s didn’t have invis, they’d die very very quickly.

Also you think Dodging on a Ranger will save you past 2 people? If the players are remotely competent, they’ll kill you very quickly.

Actually, Mesmers stay alive because of visual confusion, easy access teleports (which really hurts with all those clones around) and invulnerability on demand.

Invisibility is the last of the reasons of their amazing survivability.

It doesn’t take that long to build LS once you get it a fight, and I realize that DS has some of your best abilities…but in a 1v1, Don’t use it primarily for damage..Use it to negate burst… Group Fights when you’re not focused, yea..Its a good idea to use it like you want..1v1 when someone is on top of you, Don’t..You’ll just remove the one form of Damage reduction you have..

Its taking me a while to gather video as very few people are running solo it seems this matchup.

I’m trying to gather video of people only using Food as well….

I find that spamming the number 1 Great sword button is also nice cause of the evades..

But you’re not going to see a Ranger in an organized Guild Zerg because those classes listed Warrior/guardian/Elementalist/Necro are better that sort of thing.

I watched a bunch of Guild vs Guild duels (by the way, the whole 25vs25 thing is about the most unskillful thing i’ve seen in an MMO to date….it needs to go the way of the dodo bird….Group vs Group is far far better to watch and requires far far more skill) and honestly it was just silly….It was nothing but those Classes Listed.. and people running spamming buttons…

For general zerging though, either grab a longbow, or slap on some clerics gear and a greatsword and dive head first in the zerg

Lord Trejgon.2809:

the only thing that connects SB with any quickness and can be recalled here is when they fixed some bug that caused SB Auto-Atack break themself when on quickness.
some person I assume never noticed that by the while sb auto on quickness have half of its animation and didn’t hit anything (and though that they were shoting so quickly)
and when that was fixed, the only thing that those ppl noticed that they are no longer shoting so quick that computer don’t render the half of shot animation and started to raging that was hidden nerf.
end of story.
as for now jcbroe is behaving as those ppl.
I only ask – before You’ll start raging (All of You) test things that You think was hidden nerfed – if in this case Things are weker that it used to be report a bug. and start raging only when ANet admit that wasn’t a bug and was intended.
eot for me

Ummm, my shots hit with QZ back then…I don’t know what you’re talking about..

that was a huge form of our burst, running up someone, popping QZ, and unloading in their face with SB1.

When they ended up doing the “animation” fix, it was very very noticeable….

lol, we don’t have anything amazing aoe like necros….

I actually was zerging on my Ranger earlier this morning…I was using the clerics armor… but this is how bad it was..

I’d basically pop my heal and rampage as one and just run in swinging my great sword number 1 key..

like nothing else…required like zero skill..

Then again nothing was better then yesterday while playing, I managed to build a Superior Ballista and AR zerg came rolling up, to fight our zerg, I hit their entire zerg with it…I never seen so many bags in my life.

How can you say 7% less damage without a timeframe reference?

Is it over 100 shots or 1000 shots?

Or 1 shot?

But what Jon Peters said had only to do with Shortbow, and no talents taken into account, and certainly had nothing to do with QZ.

Sword from Mesmer can do the same thing, only it was 2 seconds duration..so I don’t buy thakittens

the same duration as the Thief Version, which can be spammed.

Nikkle.4013:

Xsorus.2507:

Mesmer’s stay up not because of invul, but because they can go invisible multiple times over and over again.

If Mesmer’s didn’t have invis, they’d die very very quickly.

Mesmer’s in Tpvp don’t run invis utilities. They survive because of invuls and good positioning.

if you’re not able to kill a Mesmer without invis then that’s a user problem.

That Invul doesn’t last long enough to not get eaten by Spikes of damage or conditions.

Ralk.7106:

“Went back and looked, yet it was in the notes, though from what I recall it was greater then they stated in the notes and it just broke the ability all together with QZ.”

This is a misconception that was further spread by those who failed to test for themselves. Here’s what happened:

The rate of shortbow autoattack fire was decreased (7% if I recall?). This was originally documented as an animation fix and later acknowledged as a nerf.

Several forum posters felt that SB auto during QZ was firing especially slowly and theorized that the combination of SB auto and QZ was broken. They did not back this up with data but nonetheless continued to spread the rumor.

Responsible forum posters disproved those rumors with actual data that verified that the rate of fire under QZ decreased correctly by 7%. They proved there was no additional undocumented nerf.

The masses of this forum failed to look for facts and continued to believe that SB auto + QZ was somehow now broken. For any that still believe this rumor, go test it yourselves before posting speculation.

Just trying to clear things up…

it was a 7% damage nerf per shot.

I’ve yet to see a post back then of QZ + SB 1 being only a 7% damage nerf as well, Every post back then is backing up as close to a 20% damage nerf.

Unless you have a post I’ve not seen

Loyo.8526:

Have to agree With Myrmidian Eudoros… Life Force isn’t the same as dodging at all. It gives good ability to mitigate damage in 1v1s, but Invuln, blocks and dodges mitigate much more once the number of enemies climb past 2. My build I have is completely based on getting high amounts of Life Force, and I still can’t survive a good deal of things my mesmer can, and they have the exact same amount of armor, with necro beating in HP by about 1-1.5k

Mesmer’s stay up not because of invul, but because they can go invisible multiple times over and over again.

If Mesmer’s didn’t have invis, they’d die very very quickly.

Also you think Dodging on a Ranger will save you past 2 people? If the players are remotely competent, they’ll kill you very quickly.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Xsorus.2507:

If you’re not building Lifeforce, then that’s a build problem.

Also yes, having a mechanic that eats damage is fairly nice… You might not think it is.. but it is.. That’s your equiv of Dodge/Block

Lets keep this thread constructive and on topic rather than debating apples to oranges. Just drop Necro from the discussion all together because evade isn’t even something that the profession can think about in the building process.

@Xsorus:
If you think building life force and using shroud can get you to the same kind of survivability as an S/D Thief or a Ranger that spams evades in any scenario that is not PvE, then do start another thread to post a video of you performing said task. Until then anyone that has ever played Necromancer, at all, ever, has to assume that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Yea, its not like I have videos of me playing a Necromancer or anything.

I also never stated it’d give you the same survivability of a thief or ranger, I said its your equiv of Dodge…Its what you’re suppose to use to mitigate damage.

If you go into Deathshroud to spam nukes in a 1v1 you deserve to die…

Use it to negate burst, then pop out of it.

You really need to separate the classes based on what their needs are..

Rangers for example are fairly decent roamers, They can 1v1 most classes and do alright with that..

They absolutely blow for zerging though, and I see a lot of people don’t understand zerging in this game either.

Let me clear this up for you, the absolute best class in this game to zerg on is the Thief….Some of you are confused right now because some fools think Zerging is about Group utility…This is wrong..

Zerging Comes down to really two things..

1. How many people have vs the enemy
2. If you’re Pushing or Retreating, The side that pushes on the other side is generally the one that wins 9/10 in Zerg Warfare…. Just like the side with more people is generally the side that is pushing.

Now with that said…Why is the thief the best Zerging Class in the game..Simply put…Zerging has nothing to do with how your utility is, It has everything to do with how many people you can hit.

As a Thief, you can fire Choking Gas over and over again all over a zerg fight..This is Poison Combo Field that last a couple seconds..its fairly wide radius, and will hit lots of people..You can do this all day long.. ..This means you will hit the most amount of people, More then even a Necro can…

You also have the ability to just run away and live pretty much every time….Meaning you’re not running back when your zerg eventually does die.

So anyone who tells you thieves are bad at zerging, clearly don’t understand how zerging is in this game..They think it comes down to Skill, when it really doesn’t…

The only time you will remotely get a small amount of “skill” is maybe in a Guild vs Guild fight, but even then..Those fights aren’t really skill…But a Cluster kitten of AOE from probably nothing but Warriors/Guardians/Ele’s with a Necro or two..

But even those groups will get rolled over by bigger numbers pushing on them.

QZ + SB nerf if I recall wasn’t in the patch notes….We brought it up then Jon came in here and was like “Oh we intended that, enjoy”

Basically gutted those two abilities together, Now with the “current” changes to QZ, you’d be a fool to use it with SB, as its basically just giving yourself a negative 50% heal debuff for a couple seconds… as it will not do anything remotely to sb fire rate.

edit

Went back and looked, yet it was in the notes, though from what I recall it was greater then they stated in the notes and it just broke the ability all together with QZ.

Sounds like they were messing with things and broke it.

They did the same thing to Ranger this patch with Offhand Training and Dagger 4 (stalkers strike) though….it could be a nerf.. you never know with Anet, they love to do undocumented nerfs to the Ranger (QZ+Shortbow)

Yeap, Undocumented BS from them as usual..

Lord Trejgon.2809:

hmm…
as for me that is bug – if you read last patch notes they were repairing that trait for axes – and seems that, accidentally they make it unworking for dagger.
simple – report and wait for patch that will repait that.

Already reported it, but I don’t trust them at all..

Anet has a history of screwing the Ranger over with Undocumented nerfs.

QZ/SB is a prime example of that… Undocumented nerf followed by them saying they intended it.

jcbroe.4329:

Dagger 5 also does not function with offhand training. It reverts to 900 range in combat.

rofl does it?

I always thought it was kind of short range.. wonder if its always been like that.

Also now its showing 1/2 second with or without offhand training.

And its still not listed in the patch notes, nor has the Devs commented on this substantial nerf.

This is like that BS with Shortbow and QZ all over again

Furajir.3815:

Yes but now, even with offhand training, and without it, in the mist and regular, the evade time still says 1/2s

rofl..

And yet…They still haven’t come to these forums and said anything, nor have they bloody posted it in the patch notes.

WTF is wrong with them

I don’t understand why they touched it in the first place, there isn’t a problem with it..

Unless the intern they have making changes confused it with the Thief Version.

sorrow.2364:

Xsorus.2507:

Yea..if only necros had access to some form of a mechanic that acted as damage mitigation…Like… for example.. a second health bar that they could pop in and out of to absorb damage..

Man…If only

grin

By the way, for the people in this thread that keep talking about Dodge/evade..

You realize Dodge is the equiv of Blocking right?

Warriors have access to Blocking last i checked..

Yeah, amazing defensive mechanic.
A “second life bar” with no defensive abilities, constantly degenerating over time at approximately 10 bleed stacks, with no stunbreaker, that has to be slowly built up before it can be used. I wonder how can I save my kitten while I’m hardly building up Life Force.

But yeah, everybody knows that the best defensive mechanic is eating all the damage and all the CCs.

Warriors have access to blocking. But there are some skills that are unblockable (see Flanking Strike), while I see no skill which is “undodgeable”.
Also, last time I checked, Warriors weren’t able to block 1/3 of the time.

If you’re not building Lifeforce, then that’s a build problem.

Also yes, having a mechanic that eats damage is fairly nice… You might not think it is.. but it is.. That’s your equiv of Dodge/Block

I didn’t notice it because I was doing Great Sword this patch with Clerics Armor.

but yea… bloody stupid.

All Rangers need to go to this thread in the Game Bugs forum

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Undocumented-Ranger-Nerf-in-patch/first#post2202849

Also go under support option in game options and report this bug as well.

Anet kitten es me off more then anything..

Mainly because they drop crap like they did in the State of the Game where they’re going to nerf our class…and then they don’t have the balls to come into the Ranger Forums and tell us what they’re going to do..

Now we get undocumented nerf’s like this… and again..No Developer comes in the forums to let us know what the hell is going on.

That nerf is unacceptable, not only is it undocumented, it shows a complete lack of disrespect on the part of Anet for not coming in here and having the balls to tell us about this sort of thing first hand.

sorrow.2364:

Every profession except Warrior and Necromancer have pretty much permanent access to vigor.

- Engineers: vigor on swiftness, random from elixirs, 50% endurance regen via trait
- Elementalist: Renewing Stamina (perma vigor almost), vigorous scepter, plus multiple evades via weapon skills
- Mesmer: Critical Infusion (just like Renewing Stamina) plus multiple invulnerabilities via skills
- Ranger: faster endurance regen, primal reflexes and Vigorous Renewal, plus multiple evades via weapon skills
- Thief: everybody knows
- Guardian: Vigorous Precision (just like Critical Infusion adn Renewing Stamina)

Only Necromancers have no access to any form of active damage mitigation mechanics and ArenaNet doesn’t want to give them some tools because they don’t want them to become OP.
Well, yeah…

Yea..if only necros had access to some form of a mechanic that acted as damage mitigation…Like… for example.. a second health bar that they could pop in and out of to absorb damage..

Man…If only

grin

By the way, for the people in this thread that keep talking about Dodge/evade..

You realize Dodge is the equiv of Blocking right?

Warriors have access to Blocking last i checked..

You guys screwed up and slipped in a nerf I believe thats coming in a future patch…Which by the way isn’t cool.

Dagger 4 is normally 1 and 1/4 second Evade…..

If I equip Offhand training (which is suppose to improve the ability) it becomes a 1/2 second evade..

A pretty substantial nerf..

You didn’t put this in the patch notes, so I take it this nerf wasn’t planned to go in yet.

Pretty shady

Dagger 4 ability without offhand training is 1-1/4 second evade….

Equip Offhand training, it becomes a 1/2 second evade..

This is not in the patch…I take it you intended for it to be a 1/2 second evade as well…

Not cool..

Wait…wtf its the same in wvw, if you have off hand training..WtH is with the massive nerf

Battosai.5620:

i hope you guys realize that this ability now – at least in spvp is worse off then before.
furthermore they reduced the dodge from 1 1/4 seconds to 1/2 a second.

you’re right, they did flat out nerf the ability in spvp…WTF..

and they didn’t even put it in the patch notes..

D/P thieves

Probably others

it always had it

Lets remove all evades and everyone role 100b warriors..

Its fun guys!

Lordrosicky.5813:

It isn’t interactive.

It is not fun to play against.

A sword thief/sword ranger/sword mesmer – I mean wtf. You put evades on weapon sets.

That just makes no sense to me. Maybe reduce ALL evades on weapon sets by 50% or look at the cooldowns oF such skills. I feel like the devs underestimated the power of evades.

So. Yeh. Please reblance evades. Reduce all vigor durations and reduce all evade durations.

Fighting against evades isn’t very fun.

It also removes one the most fun and skill based things in gw2 (knowing when to dodge) when people can just perma evade and dodge everything via luck.

rofl..

How exactly is evading not interactive?

You push the same amount of buttons

I tend to follow a combo when I do my setup, I talked about it in the video…it seems to work pretty well.

Rinzler.8072:

No hate, but…

IOJ and SBI, where is your small group/solo talent?

All my guild seems to run into is:

A: Zergs
B: Cowards (Even when they outnumber us 2:1)
C: Equal size groups that get utterly destroyed

The only semi decent fights we have run into are JQ and a few GEN peeps.

As someone who solo’s all the time, and doesn’t run with a “guild” let me say that I get zerged far more by AR then I do by IoJ

you’re not as bad as Dragonbrand though..or SoS..

Yea, never knew it did damage..that’s good info.

But yea, that’s a Clerics Build Sigil right there.

Anyway as for original topic, I’ve tried Axe/Dagger and Sword/Torch, but It feels weird to me..its probably the fact I’ve been playing S/D A/T for 6 or 7 months now that keeps me from really trying it…

Rofl..

As someone who’s pretty known for using Conditions Builds in World vs World while running Solo

let me say for starters that this food will not save you vs conditions builds, What saves you vs conditions build is determined by if one of you is a Substain Bunker Condition Build, and if you’re not..

You can have as much condition reduction as you want, But if you can’t last in a fight..I’m going to kill you, Yes it will take longer then normal, but you will die…Its just a matter of time.

i kill warriors all day long running these setups, Because most Warriors run Knights or Berserkers gear….Which do absolutely nothing for fighting against conditions..You’re going to eat some damage….and you won’t kill a competent bunker very quickly usually.

Now if a Substain Bunker decides to run this food and rune setup, yea…I won’t kill them..I have to get lucky to do it, But if they’re running this setup as substain bunker, they have zero chance of killing most other bunkers as well as the damage is to low

It’ll allow them to kill condition builds if they normally have trouble with them that aren’t substain builds (Rabid Gear Necro’s for example) but chances are if they were bunker before they could probably kill a Rabid Gear Necro.

I get that you don’t want people to use them in the mini game, but why is the food that I tend to use in WvW disabled because of it?

Side game should be exactly that, a side game….not having an effect on the main game

Rofl, I watched the video again, that thief I swear to god I killed multiple times before that…..Never noticed he was a commander though.

awge.3852:

Xsorus… a few comments:
- Rename your build to BM condition/bunker, I think it better helps to identify your approach.
- Kudos for showing us what you can achieve with canine/spider/feline/drakes, I’ll take note for future use.
- Your build isn’t posted here but that’s ok, I just need to know how you make your torch bonfire have such a big range.
- Rune preference? I have bounced between Dwanya/Undead based on Apothecary gear, but I find it a build choice between both (more survival or more condition) what do you use and why? How do you balance between high condition/high survivability?

P.S.: two commanders down in a row, what else is new? lol

I have the Guide

Anyway i’ll answer some questions

1. K i’ll do that for next video I do after technobabble 3
2. I’ve been trying to use different pets in the videos to show it can be done, I’ve started using Drakes more as I can control their burst with their F2 a bit better then i can with cats, plus its ranged… and aoe.
3. Offhand Training, Always pick that talent if you can and use Torch.
4. Its a choice, Undead is more offensive, and honestly I’ve lost a ton of Offensive Power since Pain Inverter was nerfed, so I find that I need to last longer in the fight (before PI was nerfed, most fights were over very very quickly, and I didn’t need as much substain as I do now…So I ran Superior Rune of Nightmare)..Now I tend to run Dywana and Mango Pie for more HPS so I find them a bit better, not that you can’t run Undead…

Nugget.8031:

You could put grove runes on the cleric set for even more troll cc, with two canines and entangle as well hehe.

Thought about it, but that extra regen on our heal is such so nice, esp since I don’t have 30 in Beast with my Technobabble build (0/30/30/10/0)