Guild Wars 2

Winning team has 2 berserker being the hardcounter to the condition specs. One of those zerkers is the oh so weak warrior hammer. I’m surprised it took spvp this long to catch up to the WvW warriors.

All it’s lacking now is an aura. And I agree, the footfalls could use improvements, specifically to the size of the clouds which are overshadowed by the lightning.

Wish mesmer auto wasn’t so bad ;(.

The bubble at 6 mins was fun, made good use of mitigation to save the day.

Med.6150:

Zenith.7301:

Well, yeah, their mitigation is pretty active, that’d be ideal. But instead of engaging mechanics and varied skills rangers got sat with a single option because the rest suck, and the option they got stuck with happens to be the most boring one, ever.

Guardian is one of the most polished classes in the game. Warrior was too, his only issue was uptime in teamfights.

And what did they do? Oh, Give them 800 health regen with minimal investment, and the most broken high cd stances that make them 1v1 gods and temporary immune, but still doesn’t fix them in team fights because the broken 40-50 sec cd godly stances that break them in 1v1 will not be available in many of the teamfights.

Instead of giving them slightly more condi removal more often, they give them 8-10 seconds of condition immunity, 4 seconds of damage immunity, and 8 seconds of stability alongside the brokenness of signet of rage+ lyssa for an unpeelable damage monster.

Everybody should have known that with the damage they do warriors could not possibly have high uptime on targets, but it happened anyways and now you see things melt because there’s no way the other classes were balanced to survive eating a hundred blades or an eviscerate on top of the constant high damage autoattacks of the warrior who’s now regening 800 health per sec and has not only shield stance bur berserker stance and endure pain to wait out the second skull crack into hundred blades.

When hyperboles like these are presented, we really have to blame ourselves, the playerbase, for the mess that PvP has become.

800 regen per second comes with minimal investment?

Do you honestly believe that a Cleric amulet and a completely defensive build can be considered “minimal investment”? (Because I really hope you know that you have to run 30 in Tactics and 30 in Defense to get to that number). But that’s not all, you will have to run two mediocre utilities for that as well as a heal that you can never activate.

Seriously guys, the hyperboles need to stop, unless you have more fun playing the forums than playing the game.

Get off it, elementalists need to spec water and arcana but nobody called that a huge sacrifice when the valkyrie elementalists were running around and people were crying.

The regen achieved by a warrior that can still hit 7k 100b is just dumb.

Well, yeah, their mitigation is pretty active, that’d be ideal. But instead of engaging mechanics and varied skills rangers got sat with a single option because the rest suck, and the option they got stuck with happens to be the most boring one, ever.

Guardian is one of the most polished classes in the game. Warrior was too, his only issue was uptime in teamfights.

And what did they do? Oh, Give them 800 health regen with minimal investment, and the most broken high cd stances that make them 1v1 gods and temporary immune, but still doesn’t fix them in team fights because the broken 40-50 sec cd godly stances that break them in 1v1 will not be available in many of the teamfights.

Instead of giving them slightly more condi removal more often, they give them 8-10 seconds of condition immunity, 4 seconds of damage immunity, and 8 seconds of stability alongside the brokenness of signet of rage+ lyssa for an unpeelable damage monster.

Everybody should have known that with the damage they do warriors could not possibly have high uptime on targets, but it happened anyways and now you see things melt because there’s no way the other classes were balanced to survive eating a hundred blades or an eviscerate on top of the constant high damage autoattacks of the warrior who’s now regening 800 health per sec and has not only shield stance bur berserker stance and endure pain to wait out the second skull crack into hundred blades.

If they removed pets from the aggro tables you’d see a lot more rangers not running bear and longbow.

As it is they’re being coddled by having the bear and longbow for leveling — nothing really pushes them out of the comfort zone and by the time they get to 80 it’s too late.

And quite frankly it is sad that this game is so terribly balanced that instead of having all pets do similar damage and be distinguished by utility, they went ahead and only made 4 pets useful (drakes and cats for pve, ravens and for wvw and spvp ).

So in PvE out of that vast stable, you only use cats or drakes.

Guardian bunker is not hard, please.

Good mesmer is hard. Even a good ele and even d/p non-perma stealth thief. DPS guardian is hard.

Engineer is by far among the hardest to play well.

Ranger and guardian bunker are doing nowhere near the damage of the warrior or s/d thief.

Especially guardian and ele bunkers don’t come close to the damage warrior puts out for being so survivable.

Don’t even compare guardian to warrior. Guardian only survives and controls the point. He doesn’t kill anything, let alone threaten it.

Knote.2904:

Zenith.7301:

Knote.2904:

I see 2 low dmg high survivability builds going at it and one complaining they can’t kill the other.

Yeah, s/d thief is SOOOOOOOOO low damage trolololol

Yeah man, did you see those epic crits that guy was pulling off in the video?

Against a high toughness target….2.5k is pretty kitten good. Thief backstab on a spirit ranger caps at like 4k at best and requires far more setup than a spammable #3 skill and an auto chain that hits nearly as hard as that same skill 3 in the end part of the chain and applies weakness to boot.

That same thief on a sub 1500 toughness target crits easily for 3k per larcenous strike or more.

Knote.2904:

I see 2 low dmg high survivability builds going at it and one complaining they can’t kill the other.

Yeah, s/d thief is SOOOOOOOOO low damage trolololol

I love to see a thief complaining about warrior brokenness.

Literally, the class that can spam its broken skill to kingdom come with berserker stats and all the disengages in the world.

Ele gets hardcountered by warrior or s/d thief much harder than they do by condis, so I don’t get why you’re constantly blaming everything on condis.

Yes, the sun spirit is a group proc buff that works even on minions. Those necrmonacer minions? they all proc burning. The hyena summoning other hyenas? More burning procs from each.

It’s also partly why so many people are whining about spirit ranger, because on top of the necro and engineer dropping aoe condition bombs, the spirit ranger gives the whole group burning.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Volrath.1473:

Get into the game and play it, talk with ppl in the Mists (if you can find anyone there) there are dozens of threads in this subforum with detailed feedback, videos, screenshots, practical examples and some suggestions too.

I don’t understand why you keep asking for constructive feedback have you read it all already? if so, i’m sure you won’t need any more…

So, I shouldn’t promote constructive feedback because of why?

Do you want us to actually fix the problems you are having, or do you want us to just wing-it without knowing what the actual problem is?

It’s completely your choice to use hyperbole and not be constructive, but don’t expect us to read your mind or understand how to fix the issue if you don’t give us any detailed information regarding it.

Yes, there is constructive feedback. However, if we get 1 constructive post out of 10, how do we know that it’s a real issue if those 9 posts don’t actually give us any information?

But you can gather data on what forms of fun are mostly shared by the playerbase instead of pretending like it’s some huge task because it’s “relative”. And make changes based on that feedback.

And there’s no denying that a large amount of feedback has constantly coalesced in favor of other format types, and most especially balancing the classes and introducing build diversity.

Build diversity is something that hasn’t even happened to classes like the elementalist or mesmer. It’s always been shatters and it’s always been water+ arcana. For rangers it has always been conditions because their power coefficients suck.

And in one year of those issues existing they have not been addressed meaningfully.

Shortly after release Jon Peters asked in the mesmer forums for ideas about Cry of Frustration since they didn’t know what to do with it. Well, guess what, one year later and all that feedback went to the toilet because Cry of Frustration has remained the same as it was in closed beta.

He means fun as in game formats that are fun to people.

Conquest does not encourage fun for many people because rather than combat it emphasizes certain build elements, like builds who can bunker and outlast, and the extreme builds that can debunker. Most importantly, you can win most team matches and still lose the game because conquest is about rotating players and neutralizing/capping nodes.

Other formats like capture the flag or death match emphasize other aspects of combat that tend to be fun for most people. Death match in particular.

Conquest also creates a lot of 1v1 scenarios, and this game is horribly balanced on 1v1. There’s no way a necro or ranger will kill a warrior. There’s no way a mesmer will 1v1 a competent thief. There’s no way an elementalist can win against a warrior or s/d thief or necro.

In death match classes which are not good in 1v1 don’t get penalized.

sorrow.2364:

Zenith.7301:

Laserbolt.6731:

There is a lot of thought behind why some professions have higher heath pools. This is a complex system. Some professions need higher health pools because they have less defense naturally and cannot build it as high with traits and gear.

This is a load of crap.

Ele and guardian HAVE to build bunker because if they don’t have the points in the defensive/boon spam lines they get 2-shot by warriors, mesmers, and thieves.

A guardian or ele has 12k base hp in berserkers. A single eviscerate crit can bring you to 20% hp and a single hundred blades after a skull crack will kill you.

Nope.

As an Elementalist or a Guardian, you have plenty of ways to replenish your health bar and mitigate damage. Giving them 15k base HP would make them insanely OP.

It’s well known that the two professions with the highest health pool are horrible bunkers and go down under bursts without problems.

I agree that giving more HP is not a good idea to compensate the lack of defensive capabilities, but it is because of Warriors and Necromancers being too weak defensive-wise, not Guardians and Elementalists.

NOPE. Those hp replenishments and defenses are STRICTLY tied to those defensive traitlines, you’re so disgustingly ignorant.

An elementalist without points in water or arcana isn’t healing crap, isn’t having any prot, and isn’t removing conditions ourside water dagger 5 and cleansing fire utility or phoenix.

And a guardian with a berserker swords build has neither altruistic healing or 30 in virtues and sure as hell can’t tank a lot of damage or replenish his health pool.

So get off the pipe.

Laserbolt.6731:

There is a lot of thought behind why some professions have higher heath pools. This is a complex system. Some professions need higher health pools because they have less defense naturally and cannot build it as high with traits and gear.

This is a load of crap.

Ele and guardian HAVE to build bunker because if they don’t have the points in the defensive/boon spam lines they get 2-shot by warriors, mesmers, and thieves.

A guardian or ele has 12k base hp in berserkers. A single eviscerate crit can bring you to 20% hp and a single hundred blades after a skull crack will kill you.

Condition damage doesn’t need counter reductions because cleanses exist and so does condition duration reduction.

More to the point, condition gets its sustained damage perks because outside terror chains from necros condi doesn’t burst.

If you make condi damage equal to power but with all the drawbacks of ramping up and cleanses, nobody would bother with conditions.

And people seem to forget that the only potent condition builds are necromancers and engineers. Rangers just create a problem with sun spirit burning from the group.

Condi mesmer doesn’t exist. Condi ele is crap. Condi thief is crap.

Just reduce the stacks and condense the benefits. Bleeding and vulnerability and even confusion has always suffered due to the ridiculous ramp up of stacks needed to see good returns.

Yeah, because we need warriors doing more damage with their vulnerability stacking. Mesmers too!

It has an ICD, but works with any minions. Pets also trigger the burning. If you run the rock dog, that too triggers the burning.

So from pet and you alone you probably have 8 seconds of burning.

The key issue here is cleansing, and that’s why you bring the torch, so you can space out burning applications, bait the cleanse, and then reapply with a different source.

Torch also gives you bonfire, which is just amazing. You can stand on it to punish people training you alongised spirit actives, and you can leap on it for a fire aura for further burning plus might stacks from fire aura.

We’ve been asking them forever. We’ve been asking them for account bound story mode unlocks forever as well.

I doubt it’ll happen.

colesy.8490:

Bright doesn’t PUG.

“You” can be used in the general sense, not addressing the specific behavior of the individual I’m addressing.

“You should not cheat” does not mean I’m telling you personally not to cheat.

Pretty much every PUG-making tool in other MMO’s has kick gating for a reason. And it’s because as nice as it is to think that everyone will be principled, some people veiled by anonymity will behave like pondscum, as it should be obvious in these forums.

For some people this will be among their first MMO experiences, and game makers won’t risk lousy human beings scaring potential customers away by limiting the reach of abusive behavior in PUGs.

Bright.9160:

Yeah, that’s what this game needs. Time gating on kicking people.

If you don’t want to put up with bad people, don’t PUG. You don’t use someone till the end, kick them, and them profit from it or benefit a guildie.

However satisfying it may be for the kitten e-thugs that have deemed it fit to lord around in the dungeons subforum.

Sun spirit does have an icd. The only spirit that doesn’t have ICD is frost.

To a class subforum?

There are 4 threads complaining about necros, they stay in place. Same could be said of thieves and eles prior.

And yet one is made for warriors (I didn’t even make it, but this mod trigger happy shutdown of threads by filing them off to forums developers rarely visit is obnoxious), it gets booted off to warrior subforums.

Imagine if a thread complaining about necros in pvp got moved to the necro subforum. What kind of replies will be elicited there? All the necros saying “L2P NUB”, because everyone has a vested interest in their class.

Don’t move pvp class balance feedback threads to class subforums. Everyone knows class subforums are the dumping grounds where people can talk till they’re blue while the developers visit other more focused subforums.

Just place a stiff limit on party kicks. Give people 2-3 kicks a week limit so they really have to think about whether the kick is necessary, or they can just leave the group and find another party if the efficiency levels are not up to their standards.

Elementalist has garbage sustained damage.

If you want to beat spirit ranger you need a class with strong sustained damage, such as the warrior or s/d thief or a necromancer.

Spirit rangers are not unique. Any class that can outheal ele burst, which is basically every bunker, can shut the ele down because the ele’s autoattacks, the main form of sustained pressure for all classes in the game, are incredibly weak.

Just compare a warrior’s autoattacks with the ele ones. The ele just cannot sustain damage. All he has is his burst.

If lightning hammer, the only sustained damage weapon eles have, were remotely viable in spvp, then the ele could overwhelm a spirit ranger.

1 year and 2-4 months to get a legendary finished while the kitten greatswords were finished from the start. And you wonder why greatswords are so expensive and so many of them are finished. Not only are greatswords throughout the classes the best done weapons with most polish and overall use, but they’ve got the most aesthetic variety and effect details.

While the Meteorologicus and Minstrel sit unfinished, you keep churning out new weapon skins.

It’s just precious to make it clear that finishing a legendary one year after is not gonna happen.

D/D has much better sustained damage than S/D if the opponent mitigates the S/D burst. An air rotation alone won’t outdo the pressure of a d/d ele.

Your only semi decent form of sustained damage on scepter is air auto.

DD also took the aoe burst and sustained prize, but that was overshadowed by the superior cleave damage of warrior and engineer/necro.

Additionally, s/d is prominent because so many of the dominant specs at the moment completely bypas the ele’s main defenses (boons), so scepter allows the ele better lasting power by allowing him to dish out his pressure from a better position where he can’t be shut down.

The DD ele gets fully stripped by the s/d thief, condis ignore protection and both the engineer and necro can cover well enough to have high condi uptime on a 15k hp pool that gets easily pressured into the defensive.

DD ele is still strong against anything else that isn’t a condi engineer/necro+s/d thief. Warrior is probably a hard counter as well since nobody can toe to toe a warrior. Warrior demolishes even bunkers with their extremely high base damage, so ele doesn’t really stand a chance and he doesn’t have the range flexibility to wear down the warrior from range before going for the spike.

ResJudicator.7916:

Once the condi meta gets balanced out, mesmers will easily be one of the most powerful classes again. Their weakness is to aoe condition spam.

And if you run a phantasm build w/ staff, you should at worst stalemate vs a CC warrior. Your blink is on the same CD as skullcrack and you can kite him and use clones to bodyblock (skullcrack doesn’t stun in an aoe) while your phantasms whittle him down.

CC warrior includes hammer/axe+mace. Not just skull crack.

And if you sit in staff all day so your phase retreat is always available for skull crack assuming he didn’t force you to use it by, you know, meleeing you to death in the meantime you do no damage to a guy that has 8 secs condi immunity, cleanses condi with burst skill usage, and has signet of rage with lyssa.

SkyChef.5432:

Zenith.7301:

SkyChef.5432:

I do. I don’t want to hang around BS people, in game or in life.

Better not look in the mirror then. God, you’d be kitten ed.

Lucky me. I didn’t see you there.

It’s a mirror. Wiki it.

SkyChef.5432:

I do. I don’t want to hang around BS people, in game or in life.

Better not look in the mirror then. God, you’d be kitten ed.

Bud.5617:

Mesmer beat just about everything else in 1v1 except for warriors.

They only sucked because of the condi build meta, but their spike is still among the strongest. Also they pretty much counter ALL other power build except the warrior’s, given how hard it is to pin them down otherwise given a ton of evades.

And when Mesmer wins, it’s not even because of skills coz they just pop clones one after another like there’s no tomorrow, each dealing a goodly 3-4k of damage per shot, letting cheap AI do the dirty work and the main one can just focus on healing/surviving. Anyone fighting them on the other hand will have plenty of things to keep them busy such as retargeting and dodging their endless spike.

Actually I think Mesmer spike or survivability could use a few hit by the nerf bat before the devs should consider buffing them.

What a dirty lie. Thieves beat mesmer 1v1. Bunker ranger beats mesmer 1v1. Necro beats mesmer 1v1.

Mesmers can somewhat cope with engineers and guardians and elementalists. Any spec that can outlast and pressure the mesmer beats it.

Celeras.4980:

You’re only one-shot if you blatantly screw up. So yes, it’s meant to be a challenge. Get good.

Do 8 orbs achievement with a ranger or necromancer. No thief, no guardian, no warrior.

No, you don’t need to build credibility.

If you’re such a failure of a rational person so as to not inspect the numbers and claims due to laziness while making decisions based on popularity or reputation, it’s your own shortcoming.

This forum is full of blowhards who behave like jacksasses, mistreat people under the veil of anonymity because they find their performance entitles them to the dignified treatment they so gladly deny others, and when someone not from the circle jerk comes in, they just start trashtalking.

You can say you don’t believe him. You can say some of his claims sound unreasonable. But you do not get to dismiss him without making the effort to look at his numbers and test what he’s actually saying.

You give everybody a chance to present their argument, instead of just listening to the forum personalities you’re familiar with.

And expect his claims about guardians to be vindicated as well.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Zenith.7301:

Too much of the mesmer’s damage is tied to his illusions. The shatters also suck without investment (need heavy trait support) and Cry of Frustration is outright bad, while Diversion’s daze doesn’t take amount of clones into account while some warrior can stun someone for 3 seconds on a low cd your mesmer gets huge cd’s on a 1 sec daze and a 25 sec cd buggy aoe knockback.

Warriors dont have instacast ranged skills with no animations like “Mind Wrack” or skills with invulnerability like"Bluried Frenzy". Lets give that to warriors too? Mesmers have their own mechanics while the 3sec warrior stun is also linked to their own mechanics.
Its like to say that if that class do that better than mine i also want that. In that case shall warriors be able to have clones, mind wrack and bluried frenzy? I would not want that to warriors.
I believe mesmers should be toned down in a 1v1 cenário and be buffed a little in team fights (suport).

Mind Wrack is not instant cast at range. The clones walk to you. If you’re too terrible to avoid them it’s your fault. Jumper’s channel constantly shows him dodging mindwracks even at melee range.

And they do have skills with invulnerability. It’s called shield stance and endure pain and whirlwind attack and defy pain and even berserker stance, 8 seconds of immunity to conditions that mesmers would kill for.

And effing please, toned down in 1v1? Mesmers cannot beat warriors 1v1 with the new healing signet and running a cc spec, ever.

If you’re losing 1v1’s as a warrior now your build sucks. Warriors are one of the strongest duelists at the moment, only really having a tough match up against s/d thief.

People don’t go 30 arcana for swap reduction. Most of your time is spent in fire or air anyways.

People go 30 arcana for evasive arcana and the godly blast finishers and heal+cleanse. People go arcana for the prot on earth switch. People go on arcana for the only reliable source of fury once auras go on cooldown.

People also go to arcana for the only source of dodges (permavigor from crits).

Arcana and water are the traitlines that give the ele the amount of survivability they need for a team fight.

You’ll never see an ele without water or arcana because the other traitlines don’t provide that great offensive benefits and even the earth traitline, supposedly the defensive traitline, provides less survival benefits than water and arcana and only boosts to condition damage, but eles have terrible condi build potential because they can’t sustain multiple conditions well.

An ele without water or arcana goes down faster than a prom dress.

I even tried full fire, 20 air and 20 arcana in pve. Without the 20 in water the loss in survivability was huge. 12k base hp is suicide in most situations since you don’t have stealth to get the opening, guaranteed burst.

Thieves counter mesmers harder and they’re not even condi builds, so the problem isn’t really conditions, especially with null field and condi removal on heal.

The problem is how easy it is to pressure a mesmer because he can’t counterpressure well while on the defensive.

No. Rampager is still far behind berserker in output.

MarkPhilips.5169:

But there is the same thief problem, why do you need good break stun when you have insane evade skills? Do you want good break stun and insane evade skills? It’s too much.

What a stupid post.

You’ve literally got 2 evades on weaponsets on 8-10+ sec cd’s.

Just because you have two more evades does not mean that when you do get hit by a stun you will explode.

The difference between a ranger and a thief is that a thief has 3 counters to stuns. And they all teleport him away from the incoming burst.

No, he brought PvP as an example. This is a PvE thread. And the reason condis are a problem in pvp is because you see few high vitality builds or few classes/builds with condi cleanse.

They want all the team fight utilities that are usually run, and refuse to change their meta to counter condition teams.

They are whining about the ranger spirit elite in spvp when the spirit elite has existed in that fashion since the very beginning of the game. Spirit builds still take 30 points in NM, and what they gained at best was spirits activating their abilities on death becoming available since they condensed a trait for it to fit into the repertoire.

Well I use zealot’s flame for the active not the passive. And I would never use skill 5 unless I need to back out of melee range momentarily and you use the attack to hit him from a bit longer range.

I’m mostly just asking about the DPS of zealot flame on a 22 sec cd vs. that of shield of wrath for a 45 sec cd in a single target boss scenario.

BTW, for a single target situation like a boss, would torch be ok to replace focus with if you don’t need the blind/blocks? Zealot’s Flame has a fraction of the cd of shield of wrath, so it seems like a higher DPS skill.

So you want to encourage even more classes with invulnerability while classes like ranger and necro get screwed even further. No thanks.

If you think engi’s have bad stun breaks then you haven’t played ranger. Pretty much all their stunbreaks are garbage effects with huge cooldowns.

Vyndetta.9415:

Stealth.9324:

Zenith.7301:

Spirit also has a 240 sec cd unlike elixir r, so it should obviously be better. Engineer gets elixir r AND supply crate. Compare elites, not utilities.

Do you want to trade your spirit with my Elixir R? I would take it any day given

I’ll trade ye man. I rather have double elixir R any day. that’s of course I could have your supply crate as well

We’ll trade him that kittenty signet of the wild and spirit for elixir R and supply crate.

Hell, we’ll trade him all the signets as long as we get his elixirs

jportell.2197:

Vyndetta.9415:

Stealth.9324:

Zenith.7301:

Spirit also has a 240 sec cd unlike elixir r, so it should obviously be better. Engineer gets elixir r AND supply crate. Compare elites, not utilities.

Do you want to trade your spirit with my Elixir R? I would take it any day given

I’ll trade ye man. I rather have double elixir R any day. that’s of course I could have your supply crate as well

Can be ressed twice in 30s with a 240s cooldown (180 effective cooldown), compared to can be ressed once on a 120s CD requires enemy to not be AFK to counter. What would you rather have?

One can be killed long before it’s necessary. It’s not our fault your team is too crappy to bother aoe’ing the spirits down. It pretty much takes a single 100b+whirl to kill all spirits.

Neko.9021:

It would be inherently unfair for Condition Builds to be as effective as Direct Damage builds.

The reason is that Condition Damage, by its nature, only requires one or two stats to be effective: Condition Damage to raise your damaging condition’s effectiveness, and Precision to proc on-crit Conditions that many classes seem to have.

By contrast, a Direct Damage build is only effective if it dedicates all three stats to damage: Power, Precision, Critical Damage.

Understand that in the PvP world, this is actually a huge problem. Condition Damage is the meta because those with Condition Damage are able to still deal effective damage while retaining one or two survivability stats.

Berserker characters sacrifice everything to deal damage while condition characters can give up only 1 or 2 stats to still deal damage.

The meta for dungeons and stats is completely fair and people need to stop kittening about it. People that want to play Condition builds all just want to get around the no-survivability stats of a Berserker build while doing Berserker level damage. That’s pretty dumb, in my opinion. Condition Damage’s inherent upside is that it lets you build a character that is notably sturdier than a Berserker build. To me, you should have to pay a price for such survivability, and doing much less damage seems like a fair tradeoff.

No, berserker builds don’t give up anything because aegis and prot and blinds and reflection walls exist, nullifying the damage you would take extra for not having defensive stats in case you were too dumb to dodge or unable to.

What people like you don’t seem to understand is that a surplus of survival is never good. You only need to bring enough survival/utility to not die and kill the boss before it kills you. You want to keep survival stat stacking to a minimum, since it has diminishing returns while offensive stats are never too much.

Spirit also has a 240 sec cd unlike elixir r, so it should obviously be better. Engineer gets elixir r AND supply crate. Compare elites, not utilities.