Guild Wars 2

Fay.2357:

blitzkrieg.2451:

Fay.2357:

blitzkrieg.2451:

Darnis.4056:

I demand Illusionary leap’s Clone be promoted to a higher HP due to how badly we just got kittened by arenanet :/

No offense, but this was heavily abused by mesmers especially in PVP. Now, I’m not saying they don’t need to be buffed but abusing bugs like this was clearly not the skill’s intention by anet, it was not meant to be a teleport to avoid damage , anybody who thought that is not thinking clearly. Higher hp would help and i agree it needs it, but even the pathing of the skill itself is horridly buggy, it just needs to be re-worked entirely. There’s a plethora of other kitten anet could fix too with the class in it’s entirety.

Lol abused? It was a feature with a high skill cap for use. Abused my left testicle.

A high skill cap? It was a BUGGED SKILL. What high skill cap are you referring to. It was a skill literally designed to immobilize your target into place to apply burst onto it. It was NEVER, EVER meant to be a consistent way to teleport away from damage and avoid burst, but since it was bugged it was used as such hence the fix. It is a nerf, but if people relied so much on a bugged skill then I don’t know what to say. It’s a nerf to people that heavily relied on a broken mechanic then I’m sorry , but that’s your loss. Now, moving onto positive fixes, make it’s pathing better, because right now when you use it , it’s wonky as kitten when you use on incline/decline areas and sometimes rubberbands when you leap. These need to be fixed please.

On the contrary. That functionality of the skill was often the only thing making it at all usable. Why do you think people are so annoyed? Having it disabled when the clone dies means it’s useless in PvE, useless in group wvw, useless in team fights for tpvp, and useless against an opponent that cleaves, because generally the clone dies in 1 hit. If this is truly how you think it was intended, I have nothing else to say to you.

Erm, but that is how it was intended. Nothing in the description describes abusing an already dead clone and use it’s original location as a teleport spot to use in order to avoid damage. Everything in the description describes what you just described about the skill, whether you think it’s useless or useful , it still has its uses in team play and solo play.

Fay.2357:

Swag Captain.5318:

Exploiting is using mechanics that do not work the way they were intended and can give the player a potentially significant edge over those who do not use it/cannot use it. This can also apply to using mechanics which do work in ways they were not intended to be used which, once again, give a significant edge over those who do not/cannot. Classic examples of former include the infamous Bottomless Box glitch from Dark Souls and the Power Island from Ultima 1 which gave you a weapon that was better than the one you were holding and could be used infinitely, resulting in a very low level character being able to steamroll most things. The latter include the BubbleHearthing Paladin from World Of Warcraft and the Slots-Pause cheat in Final Fantasy VI.

Yeah, the problem is that this has been working as intended for almost 2 years. All of a sudden they come up and apparently it’s a ‘bug’ now. That’s not ok, particularly when the skill itself is still broken enormously, and mesmer is no longer good at doing anything in the game other than roaming as a condie build.

Yet Lord Helseth exists. A guy who dominates on shatter mesmer without sword/x in some of the most top tier pvp you could imagine on this game. But yea, you’re right, only good for roaming with condi builds…. Smh

Fay.2357:

blitzkrieg.2451:

Darnis.4056:

I demand Illusionary leap’s Clone be promoted to a higher HP due to how badly we just got kittened by arenanet :/

No offense, but this was heavily abused by mesmers especially in PVP. Now, I’m not saying they don’t need to be buffed but abusing bugs like this was clearly not the skill’s intention by anet, it was not meant to be a teleport to avoid damage , anybody who thought that is not thinking clearly. Higher hp would help and i agree it needs it, but even the pathing of the skill itself is horridly buggy, it just needs to be re-worked entirely. There’s a plethora of other kitten anet could fix too with the class in it’s entirety.

Lol abused? It was a feature with a high skill cap for use. Abused my left testicle.

A high skill cap? It was a BUGGED SKILL. What high skill cap are you referring to. It was a skill literally designed to immobilize your target into place to apply burst onto it. It was NEVER, EVER meant to be a consistent way to teleport away from damage and avoid burst, but since it was bugged it was used as such hence the fix. It is a nerf, but if people relied so much on a bugged skill then I don’t know what to say. It’s a nerf to people that heavily relied on a broken mechanic then I’m sorry , but that’s your loss. Now, moving onto positive fixes, make it’s pathing better, because right now when you use it , it’s wonky as kitten when you use on incline/decline areas and sometimes rubberbands when you leap. These need to be fixed please.

Darnis.4056:

I demand Illusionary leap’s Clone be promoted to a higher HP due to how badly we just got kittened by arenanet :/

No offense, but this was heavily abused by mesmers especially in PVP. Now, I’m not saying they don’t need to be buffed but abusing bugs like this was clearly not the skill’s intention by anet, it was not meant to be a teleport to avoid damage , anybody who thought that is not thinking clearly. Higher hp would help and i agree it needs it, but even the pathing of the skill itself is horridly buggy, it just needs to be re-worked entirely. It literally was never meant to be a way to avoid damage, it was meant to be a way to lock down your target, however since it was bugged, people abused it kitten and now are mad that it’s fixed.

This bug was known for a while, im surprised it took them this long to fix it, but yea, kitten needs to be fixed with the class in a positive manner too.

The utilities don’t change much except maybe the heal and the elite depending on if you’re fighting against a condition heavy opponent. Healing spring / Spirit elite are best to combat against that although if you getgood at understanding the rotations and skill tells of those condi opponents mainly condi necro / condi thief / condi warrior (even condi ele lately) then you’ll probably do fine with troll ungeant and spirit elite.

For the most part, the utilities themselves stay the same because you need stun breaks / vigor uptime / and condi removal from the signet to work.

The elite has reaper of grenth but if you’re not a human you obviously can’t use this. You can use situational elites depending upon who you face comp-wise with RaO or Entangling Roots but spirit elite will also be a good option in team roam scenarios if you wanted to take this build there.

@Sevans: yes he said he runs energy on sword/torch – energy/geomancy combo.

Delete post Delete post Delete post Delete post Delete post

That’s easy, the bow mechanics are trash anyway

Warrior is easily the easiest

No trinity, no legit balance

I will keep bumping this until I see a dev response regarding this important issue. Any update devs?

Thanks

RedCobra.7693:

id love you to duel me sometime, got a nice condi spirit build for guard that would make you eat your unskilled hat why do people always shootdown skills without using them

Duels lol , winning duels in a game that doesn’t balance around 1on1 means absolutely nothing. You get carried by hammer and anybody with constant stability and condition damage coupled with condi removal would destroy it (ranger) will destroy you.

Fay.2357:

blitzkrieg.2451:

Solo que solo que solo que

Means nothing man, it’s 5 random players put together. I’m talking against teams, actual teams. PU is completely useless above solo que level , where pvping actually matters. You act like I didn’t lay out basic and logical reasons why the style of PU goes against the very nature of conquest mode.

It’s becoming very obvious that you aren’t reading a word I write, so w/e.

blitzkrieg.2451:

You have yet to play against top tier teams , ask Supcutie if PU works in top tier play. He would be the mesmer you’d want to ask. Don’t even have to worry about taking my word for it, just ask top tier pvp mesmers and they’ll reiterate the same things I’ve said.

Supcutie is a good friend of mine, and we’ve discussed the topic of Mesmer in pvp quite extensively. His opinion, shared by most everyone else on NA as well as most in EU is that Mesmer itself does not work in top tier play.

I only play Mesmer. It’s the only class I actually enjoy. Therefor, I have 2 options:

1. Use what works best the majority of the time. This is PU conditions.
2. Not play. I’ve been exercising this one for the most part recently.

Considering I was on AL and teamed with Supcutie extensively, I can assure you mesmer does work in top tier. He just used thief recently because Kpz asked him to. He will tell you flat out (as we’ve had this conversation when the PU build surfaced on the forums) that PU simply doesn’t work in conquest mode in top tier. It’s simple as that. I don’t know how you can keep arguing this, the very mechanics that make PU what it is go completely against the nature of both team and node fighting.

If you’re trying to say mesmer doesn’t work in top tier, I mean you can look at Lord Helseth (TCG, winners of EU tourney as well and would demolish any top tier NA team given to them to fight against) that mesmer does work in top tier, but it’s shatter. You will never , ever see Lord Helseth or Supcutie ever run PU because it’s detrimental to the flow of conquest. But you can keep driving off-topic and ignore what I keep telling you. Its alright.

Wow, nice thank you very much

Solo que solo que solo que

Means nothing man, it’s 5 random players put together. I’m talking against teams, actual teams. PU is completely useless above solo que level , where pvping actually matters. You act like I didn’t lay out basic and logical reasons why the style of PU goes against the very nature of conquest mode.

I’m sorry you can’t see it.

But do you honestly think top tier mesmers haven’t tried PU in top level play before? If it was successful, it would be used – that is how pvp in this game works and since it works in WvW roaming and dueling , that’s where you see it and no where else (Is it good in PvE? I don’t even know, lol). You act like PU is this mystery spec that has yet to be discovered in PvP… No it’s been tried numerous times and failed horribly because of how lackluster it is in conquest mode. It belongs in duel rooms and WvW roaming and that’s about it.

You have yet to play against top tier teams , ask Supcutie if PU works in top tier play. He would be the mesmer you’d want to ask. Don’t even have to worry about taking my word for it, just ask top tier pvp mesmers and they’ll reiterate the same things I’ve said.

Yes, but who cares about solo que? It’s a place to test builds and farm champ titles. 5-8 teams? Any team on coms with half a brain knows how to handle pu mesmer. It’s not effective in team play and there are much better classes that can hold a node and also provide team play. You can keep defending PU all you want, but there’s a reason why it’s never played in team pvp – it simply doesn’t work.

“Knowing how it works doesn’t mean you can effectively counter it.” -

Let me clear something up for you. PU is based around breaking down your enemy slowly while constantly invising to maintain boons to be able to tank with that very sustain. While this looks good on paper in regards to a node holder there’s things you need to know about node capping/conquest in general. Invising on a point constantly allows the person who you’re fighting to constantly , and in the end, neutralize the point. That means you’ve already lost the edge you were going for in the first place, holding the point.

Holding a node is based around not keeping it neutralized and holding it as long as you can. PU mesmer is basically the exact OPPOSITE of this. This is why engis are really good at holding nodes, they don’t need to constantly invis in order to achieve this, same with spirit ranger. They’re perfect candidates for the job you’re talking about exactly. On top of that, PU mesmer provides no team play support , it provides not NEARLY enough burst and it’s a very selfish build. It’s meant for dueling, but not on point dueling and it’s meant for roaming in WVW – it completely goes against the foundations of conquest. I’m not sure how much you fail to see that, but I hope this has cleared up some of the reasons why PU mesmer absolutely doesn’t work in conquest mode against mid to top tier teams. In solo que it barely works, although you would make a good cannon holder for skyhammer probably ^.^

All in all my point is to go back to your quote, good teams and good players know exactly what I’m telling you in this forum response. They’ll literally if it comes down to it, leave you sitting at that node and 1up team fights elsewhere and they’ll just double cap you (easily because even if you’re in the fight they’ll send a thief off to decap the point you were trying to hold and since you have no team offensive prowess they can afford to 5v4 while this occurs especially if its a thief, what this ends up doing is making it to where you have to make a choice of dropping out of the team fight at one of the other points to go cap your lost point because you can’t let points slip by, you’re already losing because of PU mesmer and you don’t even know it) if they have to because you provide literally nothing to a team fight and you’re simply a liability. The only thing you have at this point is providing portal plays for your teammates, which shatter mesmer can do and be 50x more effective in team fights (boon ripping, insane offensive burst, etc).

This is why shatter is a candidate much so over PU mesmer , the very playstyle is more friendly to conquest/team fighting as it brings bunker busting qualities with mind wrack dmg and boon removal. Now, you can also spec for this in a 4/4/6 pu build as well, but your shatters will do absolutely no damage and without 30 in illusions you won’t get the persona / recharge on shatter skills at 50% and you won’t have compounding 3% dmg to benefit your shatter skills. So you’re a shatter PU hybrid, you do no damage and still rely on constantly invising to survive and out-sustain your opponent, it would basically be a lost build with no full role.

Now, in regards to condi pu … Condi warrior does much better at applying consistent offensive condition dmg , engis are much better at applying consistent offensive condi dmg and spirit rangers apply better consistent offensive condition damage and they all have much better team support utility (warrior has banner and cc, engi has crate + cc , ranger has an aoe res and team boon generation), even then if their team has a staff ele + a bunker guardian, you’re absolutely useless anyway (which isn’t uncommon nowadays, it’s actually in quite alot of team comps now). Just much better classes handle this department if you’re looking for team condition dmg prowess.

All in all, PU Condi or Power is just complete garbage in team pvp. You can keep running it all you want as it’s your choice, but I’m here to tell you it’s not good and will only slide against idiots in solo que and/or hotjoins.

There are, what are the work arounds?

When I say top tier, I mean it’s not viable against players who are ACTUALLY good at the game and know PU doesn’t work. They’ll outrotate you hardcore, this is why PU doesn’t work in top tier and why literally no mesmer runs it in top tier. Shatter is much more viable both in teams and solo play. In WvW though PU works beautifully, probably can be considered one of the top 3 specs for a roamer across all classes but it has no place in tPvP game mode doesn’t synergize with the sustain / slow break down / constant invis to get boons style of PU.

Can these be made to be account bound and not soulbound to a specific character? Seems weird considering tokens are account bound. I mean I know you could just use the tokens on the character you want the runes on but was just wondering if this would be possible.

Thanks

Gokil.2543:

SonOfKrypton.4357:

Your incessant kindergarten flaming in chat is something to be ashamed of but your gameplay was fine. I hope that no experienced Eles in here give you too many tips if I’m to be totally honest.

I for one am supremely salty that people are rolling FotM Ele now that they’re strong again. I kinda wish we’d stayed how we were pre-patch where only decent players got the results new Ele players are getting now.

And that’s why we can’t have nice things… You have to realize how ridiculous you’re sounding.

I for one am glad elementalist is a viable pick now, and PvP actually has all professions in it again. There will always be something people can complain about.

Video was quite nice. Like others have said, lacking a bit on some ele-specific areas but good game sense.

In other words, continue being a kitten to people in hotjoin while running FoTM ele that’s insanely easy to play now and get good results.

Thumbs up!

Fay.2357:

knackyknave.7469:

In PvP PU has a hard time taking and holding points due to stealth.

No it doesn’t. Refer to any of my recent posts and/or main guide for a more complete explanation.

It does though against top tier teams. You will not be successful at ALL against top teams with PU – you will be nothing but a liability. It’s not meant for node taking or holding nodes , it’s meant for solo roaming, and it does fine in this department. Shatter is a huge bunker busting offensive team style spec but with portal play you can also make huge map coverage plays as well.

Any dev response regarding this huge bug? Lol

Romek.4201:

its normal – all clowns play now engineer after arenanet made this class so noob friendly

And most Engis now have the “Champion Legionere” title^^

Haha so true

Since blind on stealth exists (most thief run 20606 now regardless of weapon set it’s generally strong) and perma evade s/d (200666) you’ll have a very hard time killing any good player running this build as a ranger. I’d say your best bet is to zerk longbow sword/dagger and yolo it for 20606 and then run a hybrid condition build for 20066 , while 20066 has pain response and some soft cc removal on the heal coupled with s/d #2 return condition removal you’ll still be able to land enough condition damage to slowly take them out. Just avoid larcenous strike, that’s important – it deals insane dmg and if it crits you have a chance of taking air/fire sigil procs which are currently really op because they can be paired on top of it.

You could make it like a signet of malice type thing and heal on attack as passive with the same active heal effect.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

I’d rather have a +25% damage modifier if pet is inactive.

Longbow already has the potential to crit upwards of 4k+ from 1200+ Range in a zerker build, 25% more damage on top of that is stupid.

You won’t blame the stupid amount of stat padding that also goes into the favor of every other class in WvW but will pull this out of the hat. How much sustain does ranger lose by going this amount of zerker? Literally , everything. All you have to do is one soft cc and a thief can take him out in 2 hits , same with any other burst class that has a ton more dmg/sustain ratio when equipped with zerker.

WvW is a very stupid place to base balance off of because it’s hardly balanced in the first place with food buffs and the amount of stat padding you’re able to achieve.

Ranger is decent in PvE

Ranger is sub-par in WvW because alot of classes are just much better now at roaming/zerg fighting. Yes, ranger roaming works , but it’s sub par.

Ranger in PvP is being slowly pushed out of the meta at the moment and swapped with classes like elementalist for team scenarios and bunker warriors for node control. It’s not uncommon to see 2 warriors on a team now whether it be hambow or celestial s/s longbow. These 2 classes with strength runes have been pushed over the top. The meta is shifting from a condition meta (has been for a bit also) to a hybrid/direct dmg meta in which ranger simply cannot handle. I mean even look at Engineer , rifle celestial 6 0 0 4 4 with strength runes is pretty much shaping into the meta now. Thief with 2 0 0 6 6 and strength runes and air/fire sigil is shaping into the meta. Ranger can’t compete with the dmg + sustain that is being currently dished out by these classes now. Yes, you’ll be able to beat these in hotjoins and solo que probably but against top tier players it simply doesn’t slide as a ranger anymore. Is main reason why Tany quit and most other veteran rangers quit and the rangers that are still in top tier are holding on for dear life trying to find a solid build. One example is Eurantien who is running power variants lately to simply try stuff out and it works for a little bit until they know where you need to be in order to be effective in each map. But once you get focused you’re effectively out of every fight because you have less sustain than a necro with those trait setups and you’re leaving your team with constant 4v5’s to deal with for the majority of the fight. Power ranger def needs a buff in the sustain department and traps need to be overhauled and buffed as well.

Ele in it’s nature is an AOE class, particulary the d/d set. That’s it’s niche. Even the heals from water are aoe and the heal buff from water is an aoe buff. It’s the d/d ele’s niche literally – an aoe support class offensively and defensively. I don’t know how mesmers, or any class can complain about not being a full aoe class given the tools they have in a given fight – yeh , they’re only useful for veil and portal or picking off the side kittenter in large fight situations , but then look at engineer and ranger – they don’t mesh well in large fights either but dominate small man fights like mesmer does.

Also look at where these classes have to be to achieve the aoe capability, right in the frontline or in the fight. Warriors – in the fight, Ele – in the fight.. I think the only class that doesn’t have to necessarily be in the fight and aoe is the engineer and that’s only with grenades (and you would need to trait 30 deep to fully functionally have that work).

You guys are asking to have as much aoe as a d/d ele but be able to do it from 900+ range and safe from distance. As a mesmer I don’t know if that’s balanced or not, but it wouldn’t seem like it.

selan.8354:

omg ignore darnis please he doesnt get it!
ok baaaack on the topic!!!

i think the idea of clonedeath dealing aoe dmg is not bad as our phantasms get bashed quiet often in the middle of a zerg, but there needs to be other options than ai. our ai is buggy and the only phantasm that is good for such a thing as clonedeath would be the zerker and swordsman all the others are around u wich means u would have to go too close to the zerg in order for the aoe to trigger right. clones in general die often as they spawn so yeah we need a non ai option here.

lets see:
well a new glam trait could help
mimic rework into something new maybe
illusion of live rework
a trait turning mantras into something groundtargetable
just something… something non ai which u can spec for if u play wvw.
glam was good cause it was non ai,had high risk cause no condi cleanse, less toughness, no stealth, no power, but it was our only true wvw build. thats where anet destroyed the wvw mes with a nerf that is 50% less dmg plus icd…. now we need a non ai wvw aoe oriented build back.

Actually pink puma is an extremely good mesmer and knows what he/she is talking about. but yea, continue to ignore logic and continue on.

Darnis.4056:

The first idea is just straight up Over the top.
You’re not asking for a buff here, you’re basically asking for an end to a lot of counterplay.
While this may be a good idea for wvwvw since no balance takes place there,
it’s a completely awful idea for skill based PVP.

Completely agreed, i dont think people realize how much counterplay this dissolves.

Swish.2463:

Official design: Access to key utility skills. Gain defense through stealth, evasion, misdirection. Strong 1v1 ranged damage dealer but weaker in sustained AoE damage. Weakness – conditional removal, sustainability if illusions are countered, AoE damage make it hard to sustain illusions.

Let me break this down for you

Access to unique Utility Skills like Portal or Null Field or uhmm.. well i cant think of anything else very unique here

Gain defense through : A broken Mechanic that is easy to abuse. Or dodging Or Stealth oh wait sorry misdirection meant when people mistake your clones for you.. cause that happens a lot.. ya know.. only when you use stealth.. So yeah we’ll just call that Stealth x2 plus dodges.. So we’re a light armor Thief?

Strong 1v1 Ranged damage dealer.. Sure on GS and maybe a condition Staff. Sword is very close range, scepter is a mid ranged and last i checked Anet doesn’t like to Balance around 1v1 …. or do they?

Weaker in Sustained aoe – very true. We have 1 weapon with 2 cleave attacks, 1 with a tiny aoe and a cone push, and one with a larger aoe. then we can add 2 shatters thats 1 2… 7 AoE’s across the whole of the class. Thats not really weaker sustained.. that’s just a weakness at this point.

Weaknesses
Conditions – Hit the nail on the head. we dont have many ways that are good to get rid of these unless you run that one build that uses all that stealth stuff..

Sustainability if illusions are countered.. lets just lump these last to together and call it Your weakness is your Classes Core Mechanic and call it a day shall we?

I’m not amused with Anet anymore, I’m tired of the endless river of empty promises and Extremely poor management of assets and the inconsistent direction of the game as a whole.

“Conditions – Hit the nail on the head. we dont have many ways that are good to get rid of these unless you run that one build that uses all that stealth stuff..”

What? No… Mantras with mender’s purity and restorative mantras. There’s your condi removal, and it’s more than alot of classes get when coupled with the avoidance OF constantly being able to go invis and trick people with clones.. I don’t know how you’re even pairing condition removal with going stealth anyway, mesmers aren’t thieves. Alot of misinformation in alot of these mesmer posts.

PU should be nerfed. Shatter needs to be buffed.

a t s e.9614:

Yea sure ranger takes skill … Are we playing the same game? Condi ranger = 1111 spam with short bow while having passive buffs from spirits

Power ranger= spam immobilize and pew pew from 1200 range with longbow

And if you’re playing S/D + GS then its your fault for using such a bad build.

Much bearbow such skill

Yea, shortbow is like that. But most good rangers run axe/dagger sword/torch which is far from spamming the 1 button. It actually takes skill to use that weapon set combination to get efficient condi damage off.

Warrior is easy and thief is easy in low to mid tier and even high tier. There’s more of a learning curve with thief than there is warrior though once you dive into top tier, but most of the knowledge derives from map knowledge and positioning moreso than the class itself. They’re both generally really easy in this meta because strength runes and air/fire sigil pairing exist. Let’s be honest too, spamming evades is just as easy as pressing the 1 button if you know what your teammate can do.

Quit trying to make it out like thief is a hard class to play. Trying to put thief on a pedestal when that kitten is beyond easy to play generally. If you’re talking about top tier then that’s a different story but newsflash, every class is hard to play in top tier, you need to be good with any class to play in top tier going against top teams like apex – YES, EVEN RANGER. But you wouldn’t know that, you just spend your time in solo que farming champ titles and haven’t spent one ounce of time in top tier team que on a top tier team so how can anybody in here even take your opinion seriously in the 1st place?

If you’re talking about a 1on1 sense then if you think 20066 (meta now and only a few run 26006 still like caed) is difficult to play other than fighting against say a condi engi (which is a complete counter and most run rifle celestial now anyway), then I’m sorry but you need to really get good at this game and learn other classes more and expand your horizon a bit.

Romek.4201:

blitzkrieg.2451:

Romek.4201:

turret engi is just same broken bullkitten asminionmancer or spiritrager – even worse

anyone who defend gameplay like this dont understand anything bout competive gameplay

how can rly anyone defend bullkitten like this where have to spawn things somewhere and it kill enemys PASSIV

seriously

i bet this patch made the skyhammer designer

no wonder than

Ranger spirits don’t kill anything passively except the sun spirit (applies burning on your attacks, which was nerfed twice already). Ranger spirits are more team defensive utility than offensive utility with passive boon generation – but they deal absolutely no dmg themselves passively and an elite that resses teamates, condition removal and heals. How can anybody even compare ranger spirits with turret passive dmg dealing? Turrets also have like 5x more hp than a spirit. Ranger is sub-par because kids cried about spirit builds which is only build a ranger has atm , and even then is sub-par and mid-tier. I find it hilarious when people compare turret engi and mm necro to ranger spirits when ranger spirits are completely for a different purpose than them and also provide no ai dmg whatsoever. They’re annoying because they clutter the screen, yes, but that’s about it.

Either way this is a l2p issue , learn how to beat them and quit whining. Like kirito said, condition dmg. Enough said.

would say its more an l2read or l2useBrain issue

i said nothing bout what is strong and what is not

• the problem with “AI” is it is PASSIV DAMAGE and it clutters the screen with USELESS INFO

in a game where you have to react only on visual effects and animations (you get no other info) it is a broken design to spam the gameplay with all this AI stuff and now even more with Turrets for engis

in all pvp matches you can see now more ai mobs than players

i dont care hwen spirits do not enough dmg to be op – seriously
problem is its ai kitten this game dont need – why have there to be spirits and not just buffs on the rangers with same effect?

i bet sooon in next pvp patch(lol i talk bout the 2015 one^^) they will make warrior banners running around and kicking people, thief guild will be permanent and will be 15 mobs and called thief zerg, ele can spawn all ele mobs at same time

ye than they are done with this i guess – AIwars 2 and streams advertised with Who cares for the 5 palyers when can have 50 ai mobs fight eachother

Spirits aren’t passive dmg though, it’s passive boon generation. So why lump spirits with engineers if you’re referring to passive ai damage? Spirits literally provide no additional damage passively themselves outside of 2s burn proc (nerfed twice already) which is based on your active attacks. They generate boons for the team and some of them have active effects (when ACTIVELY pressed) that deal damage.

You bring aoe damage for spirits then, quit complaining and counter. Stop whining and asking for nerfs, play the kitteng game and COUNTER it. Much like you would either destroy the turrets quick first from distance and/or load the engi with condis as they lack condi clear. Counter, stop crying.

So sick of people kitten and complain when the counters are right in front of their face and they’re too lazy to do it, kittening and complaining for nerfs is easier in this game. It’s disgusting.

Want to know why turret engis are irrelevant against top tier teams? They don’t come to the forums to kitten and complain, they play the build and discuss tactics on easy counters and then they, guess what, counter it because they know how to deal with them by that point. Get good and stop kittening.

AikijinX.6258:

A good 2/6xx/6 (S/D or D/P) Can counter that sister build. I’ve done it numerous times. But it is very annoying to fight absolutely. Btw, Sizer just played it in ToL this is not “His” build.

~https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Guide-to-Thief-Guides/first

Arganthium was the innovator of this not so “new” build. It’s just popular because a well known Thief is using it now. It never used to be considered good, but now because of this strength rune buff. We now see a build that used to be looked down at and not used, becoming meta.

Note: All of those builds on that guide is over a year old.

he doesn’t run arganthium’s build… Sizer doesnt run roll for initiative, he runs agility sig. He doesn’t run quick recovery or assassin’s reward. He runs pain response and power inertia. He doesn’t run lyssa, he runs pack/strength (usually runs strength, but has been trying pack runes). Yeh the trait diversification is the same, but its not the same traits.

Sizer has been running that build for a very long time, you can even argue that he was running it before Argan put this build up (even though it’s irrelevant because it’s not the same build utility wise and trait wise).

Shad’s pistol whip setup can beat it if played nicely. He’s done it alot in king of the hill while sizer has streamed before.

Romek.4201:

turret engi is just same broken bullkitten asminionmancer or spiritrager – even worse

anyone who defend gameplay like this dont understand anything bout competive gameplay

how can rly anyone defend bullkitten like this where have to spawn things somewhere and it kill enemys PASSIV

seriously

i bet this patch made the skyhammer designer

no wonder than

Ranger spirits don’t kill anything passively except the sun spirit (applies burning on your attacks, which was nerfed twice already). Ranger spirits are more team defensive utility than offensive utility with passive boon generation – but they deal absolutely no dmg themselves passively and an elite that resses teamates, condition removal and heals. How can anybody even compare ranger spirits with turret passive dmg dealing? Turrets also have like 5x more hp than a spirit. Ranger is sub-par because kids cried about spirit builds which is only build a ranger has atm , and even then is sub-par and mid-tier. I find it hilarious when people compare turret engi and mm necro to ranger spirits when ranger spirits are completely for a different purpose than them and also provide no ai dmg whatsoever. They’re annoying because they clutter the screen, yes, but that’s about it.

Either way this is a l2p issue , learn how to beat them and quit whining. Like kirito said, condition dmg. Enough said.

The option to turn all asurans into human as a choice is the way to go for pvp matches only. Obviously would not extend outside of matches. As soon as you get into a pvp match whether it be hotjoin/solo que /team que it then activates the asura→human transition. Giving the option would be huge.

Darnis.4056:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

This would require to much mechanical skill, I don’t see this happening. Just like allowing rangers to control all of their pets skills.

What?………………………
If anything this lowers the mechanical skill IMMENSLY as you no longer have to target to stomp :/ Just stomp nearest…

He was being sarcastic, hence the ranger comment.

turrets maybe, minions maybe, but spirits? turret engi / minions both don’t see any play in top tier , they get demolished, it’s a useless spec only used in solo que / hotjoins to annoy people. not sure that warrants a nerf. spirit ranger is easily countered by many classes and has been nerfed continously since last summer when they were extremely overpowered.

seems like a l2p issue to me

you see more spirit rangers? what , spirits have been nerfed alot. i dont see many of them at all lol

Can this PLEASE get addressed or even get a developer response. It baffles my mind how things like this are overlooked. This is a huge bug and needs to be hotfixed ASAP.

Like honestly, pets were bugged after patch and dealing insane amounts of damage that was fixed within a day, yet it takes 6 months to fix the spirit elite that does absolutely nothing when you press the active half the time?

Come on dude seriously…

The issue lies in air sigils proccing for 2k+ dmg

The issue lies more also in strength runes, they need to be nerfed

The issue also lies in the evade spam that acro s/d is able to achieve

The survivability of any other thief build is fine and there’s risk vs reward with a crit strikes thief build in tPvP. With acro s/d you literally can jus spam evades without thinking and avoid 90% of the damage. After trying the build out in duels and in alot of solo que matches I found it’s beyond OP with strength runes and air sigil/fire sigil. The damage procs from those sigils alone is ridiculous but coupled with the amount of evade spam it’s just stupid.

Ok, this bug has been occuring alot lately but half the time you pull out your spirit elite and press the active, it simply doesn’t do anything , it just sits there and goes on a full cooldown. This kitten needs to be fixed ASAP.

Skyhammer 5 times in a row

REALLY ANET?

Please remove this kitten from tournament rotation

warriorjrd.8695:

blitzkrieg.2451:

warriorjrd.8695:

blitzkrieg.2451:

Condi removal on a 30 second CD? Thats strange, last I checked guard was 12 seconds. And if you run soldier runes, you take sic em for extra condi removal, and if you really really need it, healing spring. Empathic bond is over rated anyway. 3 condi/10 seconds will simply delay a death if you are fighting a heavy condi pressure build. The swiftness is a bonus, the main reason you take natures voice is the regen.

You don’t seem to understand how bunkering a point works either. I suppose I should go full glass with no sustain when I try and bunker? Again the condi pressure I provide is a bonus, I keep them poisoned to weaken their heals WHILE MY PET DOES THE MOST DAMAGE I’m really starting to think you can’t comprehend what the term Beastmaster means. It’s a bunker build to guard home or far point, there’s not much to it really.

You stay alive while the pet does the damage. You provide some poisons and bleeds as a bonus and to limit their heals. I have yet to see a power build take me out when I’m running this without me making an error. I have yet to see a warrior come even close to taking me out when I run this. So please to back to your super duper elite tpvp team, and stop pretending you know an ounce about rangers.

It’s quite clear you don’t play against good warriors, hence my point about you being no where close to top tier tpvp level. When you play against good players and run that build, lemme know how you do. Until then, keep trolling in hotjoins because that’s about where that build will only work.

Just so you know also, your shouts don’t remove conditions unless you run the runes, which you don’t – you run dwayna (completely useless and may have worked a year ago when BM was actually good). So yes, you have healing spring which would be your only condi removal with that build unless you were to run Evasive Purity which gives you some poison clear in the middle of that heal. Again, you type as if you have a supreme understanding of ranger but alot of what you say is just bullkitten. Also, if you run 30 in BM the dmg is minimal in terms of difference between 0 in BM and 30 in BM, like not even a noticeable difference in team fights – back when BM was actually good you’d run bird pets and get insane crits (and you also would never be in a team fight hence the selfish-ness, you would be backpoint), but it doesn’t work like that anymore. You run CC pets in team fights man, not cat pets (they have little to no hp anyway and are squishy), the CC is much more important in team fights than the dmg output from your cats. Rangers in their current state kind of just get outclassed atm. I’d put them at middle to bottom tier in terms of class usefullness in top tier tpvp now. Many more classes can fill their roles better and provide much more to team.

It’s funny you should say that rangers get outclassed by most other classes when many of these “top tier tpvp” teams you speak of actually use rangers. 0-30 in BM makes a massive difference, going from 2×500 with a bird to 2x 2.3k crits with the same bird. Depending on what you face you can swap out your runes a bit. When I do spvp or tpvp I generally run soldier just in case I run into conditions. But if you know you are going to face power type builds, you don’t need to soldier and go something more healing power specced. Now i’m no ultimate tpvper like yourself, but when I do do tpvp, this build works fine for bunkering far or home point. I don’t know why you think that it’s impossible for a ranger to bunker a point. The only thing to ever push me off a home point was a massive condi spamming engi, but then again, what would really be able to hold it’s own against a full out condi engi?

The build isn’t number 1, but it does fine at what it’s suppoed to do, which is bunkering a point. Beleive me I’ve faced some very good warriors, but they simply can’t kill this build or even come close to doing it without running a condition build. This build’s main weakness is conditions, which atm are pretty broken, and is every classes weakness.

If I’m typing like I have a supreme understanding of ranger, it’s probably because I do. Ranger has been my main since beta and under powered or not, I still kick kitten with it.

Yes apex uses a ranger, but it’s a spirit ranger. Theyy would never even think of putting your build into that comp nor would any top team on that level. Also, for their comp setup having a spirit ranger works – again, a spirit ranger. Your BM build has no role in this game’s meta currently. Too many classes outclass BM and too many classes can simply hard counter BM (thieves specifically), which is what I’m saying. Sorry, you can keep trying to defend it all you want, but actions by top teams speak louder than the words you’re typing on a forum board.

warriorjrd.8695:

blitzkrieg.2451:

Do you really think a build with no empathic bond will slide in top tier tpvp? Honestly man, you have really highlighted how much non-experience you have when it comes to high tier play it’s unbelievable. You will be able to solo absolutely nothing, and since you need to run nature’s voice you can’t even use survival of the fittest. You literally have condi removal on a 30 second cooldown, at the expense of what? Swiftness and regen. Swiftness you don’t even need since you’ll usually be on points defending anyway. You have 743 condition dmg, you provide literally no condition pressure at all. You’re just a sitting tank with no condi removal and provide regen, something other classes can do much better at and provide much much more. You would be nothing but a complete liability against top teams. The build is terrible and you really show that you’ve never played in top tier tpvp.

Sorry, but that build would get wrecked by good players, including warriors.

Condi removal on a 30 second CD? Thats strange, last I checked guard was 12 seconds. And if you run soldier runes, you take sic em for extra condi removal, and if you really really need it, healing spring. Empathic bond is over rated anyway. 3 condi/10 seconds will simply delay a death if you are fighting a heavy condi pressure build. The swiftness is a bonus, the main reason you take natures voice is the regen.

You don’t seem to understand how bunkering a point works either. I suppose I should go full glass with no sustain when I try and bunker? Again the condi pressure I provide is a bonus, I keep them poisoned to weaken their heals WHILE MY PET DOES THE MOST DAMAGE I’m really starting to think you can’t comprehend what the term Beastmaster means. It’s a bunker build to guard home or far point, there’s not much to it really.

You stay alive while the pet does the damage. You provide some poisons and bleeds as a bonus and to limit their heals. I have yet to see a power build take me out when I’m running this without me making an error. I have yet to see a warrior come even close to taking me out when I run this. So please to back to your super duper elite tpvp team, and stop pretending you know an ounce about rangers.

It’s quite clear you don’t play against good warriors, hence my point about you being no where close to top tier tpvp level. When you play against good players and run that build, lemme know how you do. Until then, keep trolling in hotjoins because that’s about where that build will only work.

Just so you know also, your shouts don’t remove conditions unless you run the runes, which you don’t – you run dwayna (completely useless and may have worked a year ago when BM was actually good). So yes, you have healing spring which would be your only condi removal with that build unless you were to run Evasive Purity which gives you some poison clear in the middle of that heal. Again, you type as if you have a supreme understanding of ranger but alot of what you say is just bullkitten. Also, if you run 30 in BM the dmg is minimal in terms of difference between 0 in BM and 30 in BM, like not even a noticeable difference in team fights – back when BM was actually good you’d run bird pets and get insane crits (and you also would never be in a team fight hence the selfish-ness, you would be backpoint), but it doesn’t work like that anymore. You run CC pets in team fights man, not cat pets (they have little to no hp anyway and are squishy), the CC is much more important in team fights than the dmg output from your cats. Rangers in their current state kind of just get outclassed atm. I’d put them at middle to bottom tier in terms of class usefullness in top tier tpvp now. Many more classes can fill their roles better and provide much more to team.

Do you really think a build with no empathic bond will slide in top tier tpvp? Honestly man, you have really highlighted how much non-experience you have when it comes to high tier play it’s unbelievable. You will be able to solo absolutely nothing, and since you need to run nature’s voice you can’t even use survival of the fittest. You literally have condi removal on a 30 second cooldown, at the expense of what? Swiftness and regen. Swiftness you don’t even need since you’ll usually be on points defending anyway. You have 743 condition dmg, you provide literally no condition pressure at all. You’re just a sitting tank with no condi removal and provide regen, something other classes can do much better at and provide much much more. You would be nothing but a complete liability against top teams. The build is terrible and you really show that you’ve never played in top tier tpvp.

Sorry, but that build would get wrecked by good players, including warriors.

warriorjrd.8695:

blitzkrieg.2451:

warriorjrd.8695:

blitzkrieg.2451:

Why not just roll a celestial shout heal warrior? More hps, more support, much more aoe heal, more dps, more tank, res banner, more support overall.

You don’t play warrior very much do you? This build and any variation of it would absolutely demolish any shout heal warrior in spvp or wvw. This is not up for debate as I play both classes and both builds and laugh in the face of a warrior that challenges my BM regen ranger.

I play warrior quite a bit, and BM regen ranger is a selfish build. It’s meant only for 1on1s. I’m referring to team support which is what the OP was talking about. What team support do you provide as a BM regen ranger again? If you want to duel people, go to the dueling arena, BM has no place in tPvP anymore.

You realize that every shout is AOE regen and swiftness, not just on yourself. And with the kind of healing power a BM regen ranger would use, it would heal more per shout than a shout heal warrior, just not an instant heal. BM regen rangers are meant to bunker down and hold either far or home point. It’s supposed to be a 1v1 or 1v2 build.

I’m going to use some of your logic. Staff ele clearly has the most support, therefore shout heal warriors are useless and/or selfish builds.

The regen given to you by the ranger doesn’t scale from the ranger’s healing power, it scales off yours, just so you know.

Also, you keep saying shouts… You don’t run shouts in a BM build. You said specifically that a BM build would kitten on a celestial warrior and I responded that BM builds are selfish and i was originally talking about team support (BM provides literally none). Then you responded as if I said shout ranger builds are selfish when they’re 2 completely opposite builds.

BM build is as selfish as a ranger build can get , it’s literally only geared for 1on1 battles so it being a backpoint MAY be optional , but you’d rather want to run spirits for the optional team support in the event you need to swap off to mid.

So what are you trying to say all together? I just asked a question about running celestial warrior with shouts as it handles team support better than a ranger shout build (you dont need swiftness on a point, which is what you would be doing and regen doesn’t save you that much from focus burst which happens alot in top tier teams). So you provide regen and swiftness and condi dmg and cc from pets. All of which can be maintained by a warrior with more tank, heals and a res banner (shout builds don’t have spirit elite unless you traited for just the 70% spirits / unbound), since you would need 10 in BM as well you would have little to no vigor generation compared to that of a 0 2 6 6 0 spirit build meaning less dodges aka less sustain which is where the ranger’s power comes from , evasion and vigor uptime not settler’s amulet (which is why you can get by with running carrion amulet and have far more condition dmg pressure without the healing power fluff).

All in all, you really just make no sense.

If you’re dueling expect 2 things you’ll see the most of SA thieves and PU mesmers. They dominate duels and have for a very long time. Nothing will change , you can’t balance kitten around 1on1s. In wvw, SA is broken and carries bad players, PU is broken and carries bad players. These 2 things are neutered in PvP due to conquest or they would be nerfed a long time ago, but they’re not – they’re really only strong in WvW Roaming and Dueling which people take very seriously for some reason because as if the stat padding alone you’re able to achieve in wvw and food buffs didn’t make it a joke to begin with for dueling and roaming. Bad players generally tend to like WvW because of this over PvP, you get carried by stats/op traits in WvW and it slides and works there. In PvP it’s quite different, mind you there’s still op builds in PvP as well but it’s far from the kitten you see in WvW.

sinject.4607:

Rolyate.6753:

Please take the time to read this short post and do not disregard it as a whining post. Many thanks.

Thief is not the only problem in PvP, but it is one of the longest living.

So, what is the problem? S/D (and I think currently to a slightly lesser extent S/P) simply provides too many things, such as:

Highest mobility
High damage
Damage mitigation
Stealth

Yes, you can beat S/D thieves. There any tiny windows in which you can hit, however this is not realistic counter play.

The biggest problem in my mind is the damage mitigation through dodges. It takes a class which may otherwise be vulnerable and turns them in to a dueling class capable of taking on more than one opponent.

Simply toning down the dodges would not only produce a more appropriate balance, but would also in turn convert them in to a roaming ganker as opposed to a juggernaut type character which has very little counterplay.

These changes alone could see a big shift in the meta, which thief has dominated for a long period of time. Instead of being chased endlessly by a thief that you have great trouble dealing with 1v1, instead there is potential to use positional advantage and duel the thief should it come to it.

ah yes the old “im not whining but here’s a list of things i dont like that you cant call whining but because i said it’s not” technique.

1. mobility doesn’t mean much in terms of combat-balance. in pvp it has value objective-wise but then we get into discussion concerning what is fair in terms of a profession being able to do things to force certain point-strats. if you ask the question is it fair that thieves are great roaming supporters thanks to their mobility you also have to ask if it’s fair that decap engies/bunker guardians/mm necros often force 1v2s, if it’s fair that hambow warriors have such strong teamfighting capability, or if it’s fair that evis warriors are such great farpoint fighters. attacking a build based on how well it can perform a role and then failing to follow through on your reasoning as to why is shallow critique.

2. s/d’s raw damage output is fine, and cannot be compared to that of 2/6/0/0/6 as you are implying. s/d has always been about damage over time rather than burst, and the only builds that can get “ganked” by an s/d thief are the glass cannons that can get “ganked” by anything.

3. every profession and every build has this and to even list this as something that needs to be balanced is dubious at best. s/d has this in the form of a VERY counterable mechanic (evasion)

4. s/d thief has access to very little stealth whatsoever. full stop. this is probably your biggest show of ignorance and to have included this shows how desperate you are vying for filler to plump up your “argument”, which is straight up deceptive if you knew otherwise.

stop asking for wins to be handed to you and

learn

to

play

1. a thief being able to ignore building physics and tp through them with a hit of a button to attack a targetted enemy is broken. shortbow is fine in terms of mobility id say though, thief plays the role of quick in and out damage and covering the map and forcing movement from the enemy team to respond to node caps.

2. its more so air and fire sigils that make it utterly broken, again, being carried by runesets and sigils in this game is insanely common

3. what other class has access to this many evades , oh thats right, you can’t realistically compare it anyway because thief runs it’s evades from weaponsets in which work on initative, something no other class has the benefit of having. couple feline grace + signet + energy sigil w/ initative evades one of the attacks being tied to a dmg chain that steals a boon and deals arguably the most dmg from the set (larc). how can you even say that other classes get access to this?

4. with no stealth you get a trade off , mobility + evades and some active condi clear in sword 2. you do get an on demand stealth but the initiative cost is rather high. i dont see a problem with this.