Guild Wars 2

Over/underpowered is an immeasurable description given to something based on data. Until that call has been made, skills/builds/classes can only be seen as over/under used . Collecting data takes time and requires a real environment (release) to make the best decisions. Class balance patches have (and continue to) spread the changes over a series. They’re re-measuring the outcomes. This is how you properly execute balance.

No, that’s not how you properly execute balance. That’s how a lot of companies do it, but that’s not the proper way. With proper usage of mathematics you can predict quite well what the relative power of different options are. It is a ridiculously bad idea to use the “fire blindly and hope you hit something” approach to balance. That’s why World of Warcraft is still in a terrible state of balance 8 years later. Theorycrafters can calculate exactly how well something will do before it’s available to play, if they have access to all relevant variables in the game code. If Arenanet can’t, they need to hire someone who can.

A 1/4 (0.25 second daze.) and 84 damage for 4 initative is pretty awesome.
Meanwhile, Pistol Whip is 1026 damage, costs 1 more initative and gives evasion and stuns for twice as long.

Pistol Whip also takes significantly longer to activate. I support buffing Headshot up a bit, but don’t compare it to Pistol Whip, that just looks foolish.

Kirito.8796:

The ones that dont think it needs a nerf are the ones that use it period. I (being a thief myself) have full carrion exotic armour, green exotic trinkets and traits are 0/0/30/25/15. I got hit for a 4.5k steal, 5k cloak n dagger then an 11k bs, no class should be able to pull off 20k dmg in little over a second. Its not only bad for the one who’s hit but also the one whos using it. All they do is look for squishy players, execute it then either die from aoe or run away and reset, they are such a burden in most team fights either being dead or attacking the most useless players.

Edit: I had 20k health and was fully traited into toughness at the time.

Actually, I mostly use D/P. The numbers you’re quoting are fringe cases in the best of circumstances, but I don’t honestly care if the build in question gets a nerf or not. However, I just know that, like the Pistol Whip nerf, they’ll do it in a way that nerfs unrelated builds such as mine much more than their actual target. And the small sect of people that instigate thief nerf demands every day will continue to do so. So I cannot in good faith support any major nerf until a few things happen:

1. Bugs are fixed. For pete’s sake, a lot of the things people complain about wouldn’t be possible if they fixed some bugs. And some things that aren’t possible should be.

2. Other options are buffed. This includes things that are currently underpowered, as well as things that would become underpowered unintentionally through any related nerfs. Part of this would need to include making pistol whip without haste viable to fix past transgressions.

3. Serial nerf-herders and trolls are removed from the forum. Look at all of the unreasonable, illogical posts that see light in this forum. It’s always the same small group of people ever since the game released. Remove them. No other profession forum has to put up with this kitten, trollish nerf posts on warrior and mesmer forums quickly disappear.

4. And finally, come up with a cohesive plan that will cause as little collateral damage as possible, and fix any collateral damage caused IN THE SAME PATCH, not 6 months from now. The nerf needs to affect ONLY this build, and ONLY the extreme fringe cases.

Shizzlenit.7648:

bwillb.2165:

Phantom.8130:

bwillb.2165:

remove the ability to cast mug in the middle of CnD

That’s fine as long as it is a change to that mechanic everywhere that it is available, not just these specific skills.

lower the damage of mug by about 50%

The damage coefficient at extreme levels of stats, maybe. It’s already not that big of a hit with anything but the most extreme of fringe cases.

possibly even remove the vulnerability stacks from CnD, but only if necessary.

No, that’s not needed at all. Thieves don’t have a lot of vulnerability available, and it fits this skill quite nicely.

how about this? have it so that mug does a 1 second knockdown instead of doing any damage, and counts as an actual attack. that way it would break the stealth provided by CnD, but the target would be prone and open to a few free attacks.

That would make it even more powerful in PvP, and kill Mug as a valid option in dungeons. It also already counts as an attack, it just goes off before the thief is actually stealthed when timed right.

One possible option, though, which would curb this burst without making it useless in PvE, would be to have mug apply to the target when using the stolen skill rather than when stealing. This would add a second or so to the minimum time required to complete the full burst combo, and likely split the damage before backstab so that half of it would come after backstab, making it even easier to avoid.

How would that work with that tree thing you steal from rangers?

Or the skill you steal from mesmers?

Hit your current target if you’re in range, I imagine.

Phantom.8130:

bwillb.2165:

remove the ability to cast mug in the middle of CnD

That’s fine as long as it is a change to that mechanic everywhere that it is available, not just these specific skills.

lower the damage of mug by about 50%

The damage coefficient at extreme levels of stats, maybe. It’s already not that big of a hit with anything but the most extreme of fringe cases.

possibly even remove the vulnerability stacks from CnD, but only if necessary.

No, that’s not needed at all. Thieves don’t have a lot of vulnerability available, and it fits this skill quite nicely.

how about this? have it so that mug does a 1 second knockdown instead of doing any damage, and counts as an actual attack. that way it would break the stealth provided by CnD, but the target would be prone and open to a few free attacks.

That would make it even more powerful in PvP, and kill Mug as a valid option in dungeons. It also already counts as an attack, it just goes off before the thief is actually stealthed when timed right.

One possible option, though, which would curb this burst without making it useless in PvE, would be to have mug apply to the target when using the stolen skill rather than when stealing. This would add a second or so to the minimum time required to complete the full burst combo, and likely split the damage before backstab so that half of it would come after backstab, making it even easier to avoid.

roamzero.9486:

Something that had me thinking.. would a huge nerf in backstab damage be justified if that damage was simply replaced by enough stacks of bleed over x seconds to cover the damage that was nerfed off? Maybe throw in some cripple and weakness for a few seconds as well.

Not really. In addition to slowing the damage, this would also make it require both crit and condition damage to be effective, make it ridiculously easy to avoid (beyond turning around or dodging or interrupting the ability, you could now just get rid of a large portion of it with condition removal, which, on a lot of classes, is built into the heal skill), and also kill it in PvE where bleed stack caps would have you largely kittened when other players are present (one of the reasons people run backstab is because its one of only a couple builds that doesn’t rely on the badly designed conditions mechanic).

Latinkuro.9420:

@doomdesire
Everybody knows thieves are a major unbalance right now speaking out won’t stop the nerfs as they are rightfully deserved ! trying to bring down other peoples threads about this issue won’t work either, this is a skill based game !

NOT catacalism !!!!

Yes, a skill based game. Use a little skill, and the thief is toast unless he can produce more skill.

The sword/pistol set originally drew me in. I was going for a swashbuckler/buccaneer/ship council style, and this was enhanced greatly by the medium armor sets available as well. Unfortunately Sword/Pistol proved not all that effective, and then was subsequently nerfed into uselessness. I was already in the middle of a transition to D/P before the nerf hit, and D/P is significantly stronger, but just doesn’t have the same flavor to it.

remove the ability to cast mug in the middle of CnD

That’s fine as long as it is a change to that mechanic everywhere that it is available, not just these specific skills.

lower the damage of mug by about 50%

The damage coefficient at extreme levels of stats, maybe. It’s already not that big of a hit with anything but the most extreme of fringe cases.

possibly even remove the vulnerability stacks from CnD, but only if necessary.

No, that’s not needed at all. Thieves don’t have a lot of vulnerability available, and it fits this skill quite nicely.

Just came back after a day or so away… Really scratching my head at the state of this argument. Somehow backstab thieves went from dealing 9k damage in 3 seconds to 20k damage in 1.5 seconds over the course of a week or so, and now to 30k damage in 0.3 seconds over the course of one day. All without a single buff and, indeed, some nerfs in the first time period. Those kitten thieves and their 1337 h4xx0r 5killz… how’s a nerf supposed to fix them if they can just hack in huge damage increases like that?

SKuDDer.1860:

bwillb.2165:

SKuDDer.1860:

SFtheWolf.5179:

SKuDDer.1860:

Me me me guardian guardian me

My arguments were general and neither meant purely for the guardian class nor purely for you personally.

Tangentially I’m amazed how many people are missing the key detail that guardian is (typically) a team-centric support class, and the thief is (typically) a class about killing people who stray from the pack. Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

I mean, every single anti-thief argument I’ve read here assumes that you have 0 teammates near you. Maybe that’s their first problem.

Oh makes sense now, so what you are saying is that in a game where there is no “classes” guardians are support only and thieves are a kill all class, great argument. If you want to get technical, thieves should only be able to take out cloth/leathers, meaning warrior and guardians should be off limits for a thief to try to kill alone.

He didn’t say “thieves are a kill class”, he said that thief is a lone wolf who preys on the foolish or wounded sheep who strays from the pack. Thief, as a class, is built mainly around roaming alone or with another thief and preying on the weak. Thieves are more suited for this type of gameplay than most other classes, but less suited to go up against an organized team than most other classes.

So now you are saying a thief should only be able to prey on those who are being attacked and not full health? The only thing a thief cannot kill is a full toughness/vitality specced warrior or guardian.

No, I’m saying thieves are better at roaming and preying on the weak than most other classes. And that most other classes are better at group engagements than thieves. At no point did I say that either scenario is or should be impossible for either side of that distinction. Let me say it clearly for you here: It’s not, and it should not be.

SKuDDer.1860:

SFtheWolf.5179:

SKuDDer.1860:

Me me me guardian guardian me

My arguments were general and neither meant purely for the guardian class nor purely for you personally.

Tangentially I’m amazed how many people are missing the key detail that guardian is (typically) a team-centric support class, and the thief is (typically) a class about killing people who stray from the pack. Anyone not specifically built for duelling should be disadvantaged in this context by design.

I mean, every single anti-thief argument I’ve read here assumes that you have 0 teammates near you. Maybe that’s their first problem.

Oh makes sense now, so what you are saying is that in a game where there is no “classes” guardians are support only and thieves are a kill all class, great argument. If you want to get technical, thieves should only be able to take out cloth/leathers, meaning warrior and guardians should be off limits for a thief to try to kill alone.

He didn’t say “thieves are a kill class”, he said that thief is a lone wolf who preys on the foolish or wounded sheep who strays from the pack. Thief, as a class, is built mainly around roaming alone or with another thief and preying on the weak. Thieves are more suited for this type of gameplay than most other classes, but less suited to go up against an organized team than most other classes.

Angel.1435:

The funny thing is, even when thieves get nerfed, their glass cannon specs will still massively outdamage Elementalists, and still be able to actually escape

Elementalist damage isn’t bad, really. And their mobility options are pretty high up there. It just has a much lower skill floor than most classes, meaning that you have to try a good bit harder in order to get the damage that most other classes can get out the door. It could certainly use some tweaks to streamline it a bit, and much like Thief, it needs more options to be viable.

What you have to do is proving me that dealing over 15k damage in a combo which takes about a second to be executed, has no risk at all, is hard to counter and needs no preparation is fair in terms of balance.

has no risk at all, is hard to counter and needs no preparation

has no risk at all, is hard to counter and needs no preparation

has no risk at all, is hard to counter and needs no preparation

This simply is not true. That’s where it’s balanced, it is extremely easy to counter once you know what’s going on. That’s why you don’t see this build much if at all outside of low-end play. It also absolutely requires preparation, you have to save all of your major cooldowns and achieve positioning behind your target to get decent damage out of it. it’s not like you can just run up to the first person you see, smash a few buttons, then move on to the next target and do the same level of burst again 3 seconds later. That’s what most proponents of the nerf want you to believe, but that’s simply not the case.

sorrow.2364:

So the base damage of backstab is even higher than the value I’ve calculated.

Again, you don’t get base damage by working backwards from situational fringe-case damage numbers. The wiki has the absolute base damage and the equation needed to get the actual damage done working up from there, if you’re interested.

Anyway 8k damage on an instant skill which is usually used in combination with 2 other skills which usually hit for 5k damage each is still way too high to be considered balanced.

They don’t usually hit for 5k each. The average damage I’m seeing on crits is about 7000-8500 for backstab, 1800-3200 for CnD, and 1700-3000 for Mug, with a very rare 9k backstab or 5k CnD or mug every now and then. Out of about 50 tries I got the stars to align once for a maximum total burst of close to 19k. Certainly not the norm, and can be matched by mesmer and far outclassed by warrior. And I think it may be a bug that mug and cnd are getting that high once in a while, because that’s an awful big gap for just weapon damage variance compared to other abilities like backstab.

Kaleygh.1524:

The amount of effort it takes to counter a thief is disproportionate to the amount of work he/she has to do in order to down someone.

It’s really not. The amount of effort you’re willing to put into learning how to counter it has a direct effect on the amount of work required for the thief to be able to pull it off on you. If you’re not willing to put any work in, the thief won’t need to put much work in. If you’re willing to go the extra mile with research of game mechanics, it can become nearly impossible for the thief to land the combo on you. It takes very little effort to counter the build, once you learn how. You can do it with one, maybe two buttons. The thief requires perfect timing if he wants to be as uncounterable as possible, and even then it’s pretty easy to counter. So in the low-skill matchings, the thief may have a slight advantage, but in the medium-high-skill matchings it is perfectly balanced and in the highest tier it’s all but eliminated as countering it becomes easier than pulling it off. And these are assuming an even skill matching, mind you. If the thief is significantly more skilled than his target he will be more successful, and if he is significantly less skilled than his target he will be less successful.

Kaleygh.1524:

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Then I would not worry at all if I were you, since a good player would just adapt instead of posting this crap on the forums.

Good players will adapt. This is true. However, they should be expanding options that are available at the mid-high range, not narrowing them. Thieves already have so few.

epicsmooth.7825:

bwillb.2165:

Balancing around a minority at the top is far better than balancing around low skill level. You balance around the high end, and you know that it’s not a L2P issue, as the people having problems with backstab are most definitely experiencing. If something is strong at low skill levels and balanced at high skill levels, you know without a doubt that you can overcome the obstacle by getting better at the game. If you balance around low skill level and that makes it less effective at high end where it was already balanced, then you’re nerfing players who took the time to learn how to play in favor of players who can’t be arsed with bettering themselves, as this thread’s title points out.

See the problem from a business point of view is that you piss off many low skill/casual/mid-level/etc players with that, which can cause them to leave and make people avoid it…..that and WvW and sPvP are so different.

still fixing the rendering bug and separating WvW from PvE/sPvP for changes would do fine.

the possibility of losing bad players isn’t a good reason to do something stupid. The players who aren’t interested in getting better and would rather whine about anything that kills them are likely just going to move on to the next new MMO that comes out anyway, as they are a very transitional demographic. No MMO will ever cater to them enough for them to be able to do good without putting in effort, so they’ll just keep going on to the next one. Bad MMOs try to cater to and compromise with them in the time that they are there. Good MMOs ignore them.

I don’t think they’ll put much effort into class balance in WvW. That is an area where any problem can be solved by throwing more people at it or building siege, making class balance largely irrelevant.

I completely agree that they should fix the rendering issues ASAP though. Supposedly the next patch will do so. We’ll see.

epicsmooth.7825:

bwillb.2165:

Yeah, that about covers it. How many mug/backstab burst builds do you see in high end paid tourneys? And for that matter, how many pistol whip thieves did you see in high end paid tourneys?

Always disliked how a game as a whole gets balanced around a minority….but anyways.

Really I think they should just separate sPvP and WvW balancing.

Really I think the issue is still the rendering more then anything else….at least for me

Balancing around a minority at the top is far better than balancing around low skill level. You balance around the high end, and you know that it’s not a L2P issue, as the people having problems with backstab are most definitely experiencing. If something is strong at low skill levels and balanced at high skill levels, you know without a doubt that you can overcome the obstacle by getting better at the game. If you balance around low skill level and that makes it less effective at high end where it was already balanced, then you’re nerfing players who took the time to learn how to play in favor of players who can’t be arsed with bettering themselves, as this thread’s title points out.

BabelFish.7234:

I don’t agree with the OP at all, any decent developer balances the game according to stats-usually at the professional level.

What I think the current issue boils down to is Anet is looking at overall stats.
While good in theory this approach doesn’t work because most players aren’t anywhere near good and therefore you can’t balance based on their imperfections.

Thieves skill cap is relatively high, we have to out play our opponents to get kills and not by any small margin. Because of the natural variance in a high skill cap profession vsing lower skill cap professions we end up with things that may seem overpowered at first glance because of the disparity between the skills of the players but when we look at the “professional” level of play everyone is bringing their “A game”, the skill cap has been reached for the current meta and proper balancing can happen from that angle.

So if BS thieves are owning all the pro tourneys then I agree, it evidently needs to be addressed. If thieves are dominating all the low rent tourneys then it’s simply a l2p issue.

Yeah, that about covers it. How many mug/backstab burst builds do you see in high end paid tourneys? And for that matter, how many pistol whip thieves did you see in high end paid tourneys?

Hartayke.7349:

What I find most ridiculous about threads like this is the “omg kids whine and classes get nerfed durpa durp!”.

Are you kittening serious? You think devs sit at their desk and monitor your forums waiting for “QQ” threads and decide their game balance accordingly?

Get real. These things are in large part decided on vast amounts of statistics. In this case, they see exactly how often BS is used, how much it is doing, how many kills occur because of it, how many thieves use it, if the opponent was able to react, how it compares to other class abilities, etc etc ad nauseum.

All the “whining” threads and all the “my class is fine here’s why” responses mean nothing and in all likelihood are not even read in the first place. You can argue until your face is blue in either direction, it is worthless against pure numbers.

It is almost alarming how self important people are to think any differently, or that the subjective material they post matters at all with respect to game balance.

If you are nerfed, it is because the numbers said your class is OP. If you are not, guess what? Their statistics decided that, not lack of “kids” whining on forums or white knight defenders responding to them.

Previous experience, such as the Pistol Whip nerf, seem to indicate otherwise. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and whoever can cry the loudest gets the attention and validation they so desire.

DesertRose.2031:

Because broken or too powerful skills or skill combinations only gets fixed because some people complain about it on a forum, not because statistical data, PvP results and the feedback of high-level PvP players say so, sure…

Judging by the Pistol Whip nerf…

Scribbles.7493:

That’s a classic, really. Bad players getting good players nerfed.

Things like backstab combos do not take a lot of skill. They’re crutches that make mediocre players believe they’re PVP gods.

It’s World of Roguecraft all over again.

Backstab doesn’t take a ton of skill, no. More than most other publicly-known combos, but still, it’s not rocket science. It does take perfect conditions to get high burst, however, and a good player won’t let those perfect conditions happen against him. As I’ve said before, it’s a pubstomper build. In the bigger picture it’s not more powerful than everything else, but it is built in such a way that it is punishing to those with lesser skill while useless against those with more skill. That’s what much of the thief is about, really: punishing the enemy for making mistakes. It doesn’t really need a nerf at all. It does need a couple of bugs fixed, but beyond that just improving the viability of other builds would correct the population imbalance to the point where you don’t notice backstab any more than any other burst build.

epicsmooth.7825:

Really I think once the render issue gets fixed a good amount of QQ will die down.

Really its my only issue….even though I do hate thief mobility lol

I think that once the render issue gets fixed thieves will be fairly balanced. The QQ, however, will continue until thieves cease to exist.

Mandra Madador.1709:

bwillb.2165:

Mandra Madador.1709:

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Bad players only stay bad, good players started bad and only got better.

A good player will never be nerfed, they’ll take on every challenge thrown at them.

The best baseball player in the world will still strike out if you give him a limp feather instead of a bat.

Ok, thats nice, but no one will hand a baseball player a limp feather.
No one has been handed something that drastic yet in this game. It still works and “good” players will still do good.

They haven’t yet, no. But if the bad players keep getting their way, that’s where it will end up.

Mandra Madador.1709:

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Bad players only stay bad, good players started bad and only got better.

A good player will never be nerfed, they’ll take on every challenge thrown at them.

The best baseball player in the world will still strike out if you give him a limp feather instead of a bat.

jayem.2630:

Being a thief essentially means have an unfair advantage on every “Dodge or die” mechanic in dungeons. And they are everywhere.

True, though a lot of “dodge or die” mechanics aren’t “dodge or die” mechanics at all for some classes

Rukia.4802:

Hey, there’s always mesmer and war.

Mesmer will probably get attention once thief is nerfed into the ground, but warriors are nerf proof so have at it

kKagari.6804:

Rukia.4802:

LOCO.1785:

bwillb.2165:

it promotes bad play

Actually, it punishes bad play. It’s what is commonly referred to as a pubstomper build: extremely effective against low-skill, unorganized opponents while tapering off sharply in the higher end gameplay.

Exactly.

Only people having issues with this build are average players (not trying to be harsh).

Most of the guys that have been playing for a while like myself actually relish the free kills these builds usually are. Not only are they free kills, but they’re quick kills, because they’re so squishy.

Indeed, like I said, dodging BS is easy. I faceroll over these kids all day. Watch their first “burst chain” fail and some will just stand there going lolwut I didn’t expect him to dodge hurrdurr now my pure damage build is useless. They may as well just stand there.

Same goes for bulls charge HB warriors. Utility out of immob and just watch the tears flow.. I have a feeling most of this forum are just WoW immigrants that have no clue how real pvp works.

It promotes bad play because the ease of doing high burst damage is incomparable to other classes. That’s the sales pitch. What new players don’t realize is that the downtime is the bad play it is promoting. When people start use a build that is only effective 1 out of 45 seconds, and said build gets popular, that is bad play. The teamwork the build can offer is shallow, yet it still appears lucrative because of big numbers and ‘k/d’ ratios.

The limits of a backstab build has been reached. Its time to bring it back down to earth again, and reworked into something more viable.

The burst really isn’t incomparable to other classes, though. it’s very similar to burst builds on mesmer, warrior, and engineer. You’re right about it having long downtime and not having any team bonuses, though.

it promotes bad play

Actually, it punishes bad play. It’s what is commonly referred to as a pubstomper build: extremely effective against low-skill, unorganized opponents while tapering off sharply in the higher end gameplay.

not really any easier to kill things. Depends on the situation, but generally about average in combat. A lot easier to explore than on other classes, though.

Devildoc.6721:

Know what would balance a lot of things? a 1s global cooldown on thief skills since we don’t have cooldowns on our weapons. No longer than that, but that 1s would give people a chance to react while still keeping burst damage high.

global cooldown for a single class is a bad idea. global cooldown for all classes? maybe. Thief isn’t some mystical thing that can use a bunch of skills faster than other classes. In fact, we’re slower overall. Every other class can use at least 8 weapon skills in a row. Thief can use about 3-4 before waiting for regen. Using 8 isn’t always beneficial, but when you have something like the warrior greatsword and rifle, that can get ridiculous.
Besides, they already have time to react. Decent players quite often counter and then steamroll thieves under the current situation.

NightyNight.1823:

Webley.1295:

NightyNight.1823:

Theres Only one acceptable thing they could do..
Make Basilisk Venom breakable and to make up for the elite skill , add poison damage to it.That way you wont have anymore excuses for not being able to counter the combo and would make a better elite skill underwater.

Basilisk Venom is breakable

there is so much incorrect information in this thread its not even funny

the pitiful thing is these people are the ones telling us the maths behind why things are broken when the equations are all so very wrong

ohh .. apperantly you’re right.

Updated today; Now counts as stun and stun-breakers work on it.—192.168.104.79 03:24, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Then there…wth is the problem then?take a freakin stun break.
If all thief deserves a buff. 1.5 seconds breakable stun as an elite is a joke.

What, you want some sort of 10 second unbreakable polymorph that can end other classes’ elite transformations? Maybe a 10 second AoE Quickness buff with no negative effects? PFFT get real, thief. You’ll summon a couple of weak clones or spin wildly in hopes that the enemy continues to shoot you, and you’ll like it!

Use complete words please.

jump Efflorescence fatal.3584:

Wreckdum

lol @ condition thieves making fun of BS thieves… Condition thief is more faceroll than backstab. You can remove everything from your screen except caltrops and your 3 key and still kill a group of people solo. ROFL

Oh God, it’s like a spear thief on land. Truly terrifying…

Meanwhile, in other news: Nobody has a clue what is going on. We simply lack the tools as a species to debate class balance accurately. It is more futile than talking about football.

Having read this debate, all I can say for sure is this: I am levelling a ranger.

I’ve been working on a ranger. Kind of dull for my tastes. Think I may drop him and pick the mesmer back up. All the sneaky trickery style of a thief with almost none of the negative attention.

On my Warrior…
I deal 22k damage to all people in a line in 2-3 seconds from 1200 range.
I deal 20k AoE damage in 1.5s while also knocking the target down during the whole.
This while having twice my Thief’s health, a lot more armor, 8 sec invul.

Yeah, that’s a bit mindblowing. The mug/cnd/backstab burst that a few people are spamming nerf demands for maxes out at about 12k burst most of the time, if everything hits. And that’s single-target O.O

But arenanet says warriors are balanced… but nerfs thieves who are clearly subordinate to warriors…. If I were an artificial intelligence, I’d have to self-destruct.

Rfreak.6591:

I called you a troll because you sounded way too… agreeing? with the thing about fixing bugs first and then nerfing, when the only bug that I see noticable in the thieves is the rendering issue, which I don’t think happens for every1.

Do you always call people trolls for agreeing with you? If the only bug that you see as noticeable for thieves is the rendering issue, then what’s the problem? Fix the rendering issue, and then see where the balance lies after we’ve had time to play as intended, and THEN nerf things that are still too powerful and buff things that are still too weak until they reach a comfortable middleground.

And not only that, you tried to compare mass invisibility to stealth,

I gave Mass Invisibility as a counter to the argument thatonly thieves are OP because only thieves have stealth. That’s actually one of many that the mesmer has.
Thief stealth skills: Cloak And Dagger, Hide In Shadows, Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Shadow Trap.
Mesmer stealth skills: The Prestige, Decoy, Veil, Mass Invisibility.

and the VERY conditional burst damage a mesmer can dish to any thieves’ skill,

The level of burst that people are quoting on thief is very conditional as well. Backstab, the thief’s most bursty skill, with a pure glass cannon build, when everything goes off perfectly, does about 7-8k damage. The numbers quoted anywhere from 10k to 22k only happen in very rare instances, if at all. It may even be a bug that it occasionally goes that high, and if it is a bug, fine, fix the bug and then see where we stand. But with the more reasonable, more common 7-8k damage, that’s two weapon skills, two utility skills (or three if you break the first stun), an elite skill, and the class specialty skill, going into that attack. 6 initiative and 4 cooldowns, at least one of which is at or near 45 seconds, to get a 7-8k backstab, with an additional 2k for mug and CnD if they also manage to crit. And that’s if the target is is a caster and doing absolutely nothing to try to prevent incoming damage.

to me, is plenty clear you are trolling, because that’s what a troll usually does

What a troll usually does is try to rile people up, and hurt others without provocation. That’s what you’ve been doing, along with a little over a dozen other people who have been trolling the thief forums, trying to create issues where there are none, for the last couple months.

Pistol Whip dual ability with offhand pistol. Remove the self root from pistol whip. Change the stun to a 1/2s Daze and have it grant 3s of aegis on the first sword hit (to symbolize a reposite) . Reduce the attacks to 2 after the initial daze hit, @50% of the total damage of the current 5 attack version, remove the evade frames and keep the same initiative cost. This now changes S/P To the “Control Tank” synergizing weapon set

Wait, cut the damage of the already-nerfed pistol whip by 50%? This would completely solidify autoattack as the set’s only viable damage skill… Pistol Whip already does less than it. Can’t say I’m behind that one.

Ichishi.9613:

DanH.5879, please log into the game and type /wiki might
after that you might try to reread list of thief traits. Than come back to edit your post

Or just… you know… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might

So you want to turn them into WoW poisons and submit them to the folly of RNG? Can’t say I’m a fan of this idea.

Wreckdum.8367:

@OP and all other people saying the devs are puppets to the “QQ kids” on the forums.

Do you really think they just buff/nerf classes based on the mood of the forums? Do you actually have that little faith that the developers that spent years crafting a game wouldn’t actually play the classes in question to determine themselves if the classes needed tweaking?

After the Pistol Whip nerf? After thieves have gotten nerf after nerf yet have received no significant buff since the times in beta when there was a general consensus that we were balanced or even a bit underpowered? Yes, that’s exactly what I think. It’s been made quite obvious. It’s already been made apparent in other games when this sort of thing goes on. Early on I was hoping ArenaNet would be different, but that hope has failed us.

And after Jon Peters’ original response to requests for an FoV slider, I have to take everything arenanet says or does with a grain of salt.

Rfreak.6591:

Now you are directly attacking me, and I’d like to remind you, that you tried to compare mesmer’s mass invisibility to thieves’ stealth, now which makes more sense? me giving plenty reasons to nerf something about the thief (while buffing other mechanincs for this class too) or you trying to accuse people for being right, because no matter what people told you in this and other multiple topics, you keep ignoring their posts and basically making fun of us, also, it’s easy to track your posts and I suggest a mod to investigate, maybe even close a topic or 2 before the flame goes on.

Yup, I’m attacking you. I was civil about the whole situation until last night. But that obviously doesn’t work when you’re dealing against someone who is as underhanded as you are. Facts don’t work when the enemy has ignorance and apathy on their side. I’m tired of it. You and about 14 other people have been here every day for as long as I can remember, trying to get various aspects of the thief nerfed, trying to make it seem like everyone is getting steamrolled by thieves when in fact almost all of the population is getting by just fine with the current situation. As soon as Arenanet listens to you and nerfs one aspect, you move on to another. I’ve had it with that. Arenanet can’t see what you’re doing, so the only way to make it obvious is with all-out war. Call you out on every count. Make the problem so obvious that they have to do something about it, because they’re too blind to see it on their own.

As for your little “comparison”

me giving plenty reasons to nerf something about the thief (while buffing other mechanincs for this class too)

You’ve given very few, if any, valid reasons for a nerf. Any logical reponse proving your evidence false gets labeled a troll. And for wanting to buff thieves’ other mechanics? Yeah, you said that bug fixes have to come before the buffs. And that the nerfs have to come before the bug fixes. I pointed out that both the nerfs and the buffs should come after the bug fixes and you, surprise surprise, resorted to calling me a troll. Shocking.

Rfreak.6591:

I didn’t stop I simply refuse to feed the troll any longer, why should I bother even copy-pasting stuff in this very page?

You’re right, you didn’t stop, because you never started. From the very beginning you knew you were wrong, and just recently you’ve started to get too lazy to keep up the charade so you resort to calling any evidence against your claims a troll. I see that a lot in politics here in the US. It’s okay, I don’t blame you, it’s only human nature.

sorrow.2364:

bwillb.2165:

That doesn’t prove anything. That’s not a good source of information. Those 14k secreenshots did not include context. You don’t know what 3rd party buffs or debuffs either side had, you don’t know if there was a frenzy involved, etc. a quick 10 stack of vulnerability from a ranger and a warrior in frenzy could likely get it up to 20k damage, but that doesn’t mean that to find the base damage we take 20k damage minus the bonuses we can personally add.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/21001/gw002.jpg

Just look at this.
The target is for sure a Necromancer and the context is sPvP/tPvP.
This because in the kill log, there is only a thief killing, one kill is made by heartseeker and there are no heartseeker in the deathlog. So the person being killed is for sure Stynmar.

There was also a ranger around, he was running with MH Axe for sure which has no access to vulnerability.
The only ranger skill’s which deal vulnerability is Hunter Shot which you clearly don’t see in the deathlog.
The same ranger, as you know, has no way to apply Might to an ally and since there aren’t any other damage in the deathlog other than the thief’s ones and the ranger’s ones, we can assume that in that place there was just a ranger and a thief against a necro and probably a thief, dead right after the necro.

So we can easily reconstruct the situation and you clearly see there is nothing which falsify my calculations.
At maximum there could be 3 stacks of self-infliced vulnerability on the Necro which doesn’t really change the results.

So, what’s your next step? Do you want to claim that the screenshot is photoshopped?

Sorry, I was trying to get to the bottom of it in a logical, scientific manner. I thought I had finally found someone who was somewhat civil about it on the other side, but I’m starting to think that was a mistake with your last comment there. In any case, it’s possible that there may be a bug in the calculation somewhere. because with the build that a few of your say does [insert number between 14k and 21k here] damage, I see 7-8k 90% of the time, with the occasional spike up to 11k or so, which would kind of support the possibility of there being a bug under certain situations.

So in conclusion, the base damage is fine, the buffs when working as intended are fine, anet fix your kitten bugs.

bwillb you see? you are a troll for what you’ve just said

You’ve stopped giving rational arguments, so yes, I’m now having some fun at your expense It’s not like you listen to reason when it’s presented to you.

That doesn’t prove anything. That’s not a good source of information. Those 14k secreenshots did not include context. You don’t know what 3rd party buffs or debuffs either side had, you don’t know if there was a frenzy involved, etc. a quick 10 stack of vulnerability from a ranger and a warrior in frenzy could likely get it up to 20k damage, but that doesn’t mean that to find the base damage we take 20k damage minus the bonuses we can personally add.

by the way while you’re getting the numbers I did some testing with a full glass cannon build with every possible self-sustainable bonus. about 8k damage on light targets. A bit more than the 5k using your original math, but a far cry from the 13k you quoted. So it’ll be interesting to see how that stacks up with the math.

Oh and including mug and CnD, that was about 12k total burst, with two weapon skills, two utility skills, and a F1 class specialty, against a stationary target. 6 initiative and three cooldowns to wait out. I’d include a 4th cooldown for a devourer or basilisk venom against a real target. Not too bad… Not even enough to kill myself if I were facing my shadow, though

sorrow.2364:

bwillb.2165:

sorrow.2364:

bwillb.2165:

But backstab doesn’t hit for 4 or 5k before all of those bonuses. WIthout runes or traits or amulet, with exotic daggers, it does about 975 to 1025 against light armor. About 2k if you include the amulet stats.

You are not considering the power bonus damage, the weapon base damage and the Might stacking damage.
Backstab can easily hits clean at 4-5k damage.
If it is like you said, you shouldn’t see any backstab which hits more than 5k damage about and you know that it is unreal.

The 2k number includes the power stats that come from the amulet. Runes and might stacks are included in your 160% bonuses calculation, no?

No, they aren’t
160% is only from damage stacking bonuses.
It is just math, you can’t argue against math, you are losing your time.

I’m not arguing against math. I’ve seen plenty of math that proved it wasn’t as strong as people claim in the majority of situations. What I had a discrepancy with was your starting value. I’m happy to discuss the situation using math. get me a new number for total damage bonus % that includes your choice of runes and a realistic sustainable stack of might, and we can go from there.

sorrow.2364:

bwillb.2165:

But backstab doesn’t hit for 4 or 5k before all of those bonuses. WIthout runes or traits or amulet, with exotic daggers, it does about 975 to 1025 against light armor. About 2k if you include the amulet stats.

You are not considering the power bonus damage, the weapon base damage and the Might stacking damage.
Backstab can easily hits clean at 4-5k damage.
If it is like you said, you shouldn’t see any backstab which hits more than 5k damage about and you know that it is unreal.

The 2k number includes the power stats that come from the amulet. Runes and might stacks are included in your 160% bonuses calculation, no? If not factor them in. factor the added % bonus damage on top of that 2k.

DanH.5879:

its the buffs that should be nerfed ?

With +160% damage from all of the bonuses he listed, thats about 5200 average damage. AFTER every bonus. 5200. What would make it do 10k? A warrior or engiener with fenzy.