hope Anets AOE nerfs get here soon, and I really wish they would find a way to fix culling—- but I suppose those are complaints for another thread.
Fix culling yes. Nerfing AoE will require entire classes to be redesigned from the ground up. Not only that, it is not needed. The reason why zerg balling around works to begin with (and the resulting culling advantage) is because AoE is highly ineffectual due to the 5 target limit. If AoE actually could put a dent in them, that tactic would disappear as it would force people to spread out and actually do something that requires thought.
Note: I am not complaining about zerg balling really, I think they are easy to beat open field providing you aren’t heavily out numbered. The only place they are really problematic is in tight quarters.
Covenn, you should really learn how to use the ‘edit post’ button. Three back-to-back posts is pretty rediculous.
I know how to use the edit post button. Don’t be childish.
The posts were made at different times if you look at the time stamp and I was doing other things in between. That is pretty normal behavior and there is nothing ridiculous about it. Speaking of learning things, have you figured out how that spellchecker yet?
(edited by covenn.7165)
Even if they provided up to date information on queue size, it means nothing in regards to whether or not a bug really exists in how it is determined. In fact, given what we all have been experiencing, I would say it is quite likely.
On a side note, for months we have been asking to be able to see our spot in a queue so we can determine how long we have to wait instead of staring at the screen for an hour or more rather than getting involved with something else. Displaying that to the user is not a big deal. This fact along with our in game experiences pointing to there being no real order to the queue system, makes me firmly believe that there code is extremely flawed to the point that they can’t even make sense if it.
I would take anything they post on the subject with a grain of salt, because they have proven that they are unable to handle something as simple as this.
Oh… and to the certain roaming guild group last night that I solo charged into twice last night and got myself killed. I wasn’t being stupid on purpose. The first time, only one of you rendered and the second time I only saw 2 of you. Not sure why players are getting culled when there was just me and the 6-7 of you there. Maybe the mobs/npcs in the area are doing it? Who the kitten knows.
I was also getting wierd ability lag last night even away from zergs. I checked my fps when I was alone at one point and was getting 120ish, yet my abilities were delayed a few seconds. Given that my network monitor wasnt showing any abnormal latency or packet loss, I have to assume the game server/network was hosing up.
Was I the only one that had these issues last night at times?
I suspect at some point, people will get rolled of steam rolling and will look for challenges elsewhere. It has happened in the past and will happen again in the future. Hell, that is part of the reason I left JQ to begin with last year to go down to #17 SoR (at the time).
I must admit that I was expecting all of our new guilds on SoR to put up a better fight during non NA hours. Looks like we didn’t get enough people during that time to make a go of it. To add to that, unfortunately we added people we didn’t need NA prime time that are making it harder to get commanders in game and guilds together on the field (that and what ever is currently kittened with the queue system that is affecting everyone else).
I would quote myself to try and drive the point home that I made to you earlier Gott, but I am guessing you will ignore it again. I am curious why you are clinging so tenaciously to this and refusing to even consider other possibilities. Is it blatant stubbornness. That is a dangerous flaw for anyone, let alone someone who claims to be a software engineer for a defense contractor.
Stubbornness and problem solving skills generally are mutually exclusive.
Good fights tonight. Not sure what was going on in the SOR BL, but it seemed like we had almost nobody in the borderland for most of the night, despite the queue.
There is a SoS thief running that build. Doesn’t really bother me because that thief can’t kill me. Just a nuisance because it is a waste of time trying to kill them too. Perma stealth thief vs. d/d ele bunkering = frustration for both and a total waste of time, heh.
(edited by covenn.7165)
The only way I could see culling affecting this map/queue/lack of bodies thing is if in the code, it’s pre-rendering of enemies has a bug and actually creates two of every player on map … The pre-rendered base model and the actual player.
That said, we do know this started after the Monday patch ……there is a definitive start time for this …… So something is wonky there.
Without knowing how their code works, that is a possibility. It would be shoddy programming, but I think we have all seen shoddy hacks in the past to get something ‘working’ (using the term loosely heh)
If someone has a video of being outmanned while also demonstrating that their area has a queue, by all means post it.
Difficult considering it would have to come from two perspective at the same time. You would then have to ‘prove’ that this was the case, which video evidence cannot really provide without itself being susceptible to accusations of forgery.
So, what you are saying is to throw out everything that one of the developers who wrote and maintains the queue code is saying
No, what i am saying is to consider the possibility that there may be something he isn’t immediately aware of in play here. Even more so considering like most dev shops, there is probably multiple people modifying source. Also considering the evidence of lack of proper testing that has occurred in the past….
Yeah, you need to open your mind a little bit in order to improve your problem solving skills on issues like this.
The larger guilds have no more right to be there than all the others.
You are correct, but what many people are forgetting is that we all have the right to play and are being denied by a combination of broken queues and population caps
@Gott
Well first of all, you are making a rather large assumption that what he posted is accurate despite the evidence mounting against it. Looks like you need to start completely over in your examination of this issue and remove that assumption.
Start here as it absolutely has not been ruled out and cannot be unless it is your software and you intimately know how it works. Consider the possibility that there may be an issue with how players totals are being reported on maps. Being completely hypothetical, lets say a minor change or rollback to a prior build in a class introduced/reintroduced a bug where disconnected clients weren’t getting cleared from the active player totals correctly. Is it plausible that this same property is being referenced by whatever monitoring code that our responding dev used? Could something like this also explain why sometimes things appear normal and other times they do not, using normal behavior player in how they leave WvWvW zones (exiting game vs. Zoning out) as well as normal functionality like the object being cleared if it was cached (or the property being reset directly from code)?
Yes, I was being completely hypothetical here, but it should be enough to get you started on thinking about this situation a little more clearly.
(edited by covenn.7165)
Don’t act like it was only JQ was experiencing that. Most guilds on SoR were partially manned and many of our leaders couldn’t get in. Everyone was having severe issues.
Also, there is no confirmation from ANET that the cap was reduced to 70. As of now that is a rumor someone started.
I heard JQ got a 50k point lead to start the match, all the queues were reduced to 15.4 players and queues are now filtering out accounts that had infractions on the forums.
True Story….At least it explains why Indo has to wait in the queue so long.
Poor guy. He was in queue for like an hour and I log in, and get a pop in 5 minutes.
Unfortunately you are ignoring many of the symptoms because you are stuck on your theory. I would suggest taking a step back and taking a look at the symptoms again. Simply put, you are ignoring a large part of the information and not adjusting your theory to compensate for it.
And no, it wasn’t a veiled insult at you directly, but one towards the industry as a whole. This is why I feel that so much bad software gets designed. Even the cutting edge things I am doing with some of the best developers in the country, there are examples of that. The consequences of poorly designed and written code in the gaming industry are relatively minor compared to other areas…. Billions of tax pay dollars and lives aren’t lost when ANET screws up.
Don’t act like it was only JQ was experiencing that. Most guilds on SoR were partially manned and many of our leaders couldn’t get in. Everyone was having severe issues.
Also, there is no confirmation from ANET that the cap was reduced to 70. As of now that is a rumor someone started.
Then there are the times that they don’t appear at all. Our 5 man was taking a supply camp and not a single one of us saw a single enemy player at range until they were literally standing on top of us. The camp models and the spiders mobs on the other side taking prioritization? Who knows
As a mathematician, I think the key mistake you are making Mr. GottFaust is not understanding the difference between a conjecture and a theorem. The title of this topic is “The real reasons for the queue bug;” however, you present speculation not proof. If the title were “A theory on the queue bug” I am certain that people here would be more receptive to your ideas.
This is a very valid point. I have made the suggested change. As an engineer, I am very literal-minded. Given the fact that no one can prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that their theory is more than based on observation until a definitive answer is given from A-Net, I assumed the fact that this is a theory would be obvious, and that the old title would be fine.
Sadly, this is the exact reason why many software engineers are horrible at what they do. I have experienced it first hand in both the public and private sectors. The truth is that designing software well requires a different mindset than the classic engineer stereotype. Of course, some of this is only relevant to the type of software you typically design because the classic mindset does work well enough in some cases.
Anyways, I am a subject matter expert as well and I disagree both with your theories and your reasoning behind them.
It is heavily flawed, or you wouldn’t have situations were a fight involving 10 people total has models culled. I think most of us have seen that happen and it is clearly not a case of just ‘noticing’ it more.
That mind set is equivalent to complaining about your engine when all you needed was air in your tires.
Alot the problem is on the user side. Poorly maintained/low spec’d/configured machines can cause all sorts of results no amount of server/client changes will ever make better.
You do know that culling is server side right? Your system is only going to affect the rendering, not the culling of the models.
Not every high-end machine is having a problem though. I have a high-end machine and culling is performing better for me. i5-3570k at 4.6GHz, GTX 660 Ti, 8GB ram, GW2 is on my SSD. I saw that video you posted about the culling system and I noticed the same thing happening with the old system on this same machine.
Similar to what I have, except I have the I7-3770K instead… I am not quite OC’d as much though. Culling is far less predictable and far worse than it was before for me.
Honestly though, all of this talk of systems is mostly pointless because the culling is done on the server. Bottom line is that it is far less predictable now and in many situations it is actually worse. Worse still, people are getting culled in situations where there should be no culling period (i.e. small fights).
I could very much see ANet lowering the map cap to 70-80. Also to those questioning the OP’s information you do know who that is right? That’s the guy that runs this webside -> http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA and is probably the most reliable and most knowledgeable person there is about all of this outside of ANet Devs themselves.
Irrelevant unless he has access to inside information. Asking how he came up with the number is valid.
Well honestly Binafus has a point despite me coming from a server that still has coverage lapses. It isn’t fair to the players during that time slot to be treated differently than everyone else just because there are more of them.
In fact, adding a queue position tracker would help them debug what was going on. Not only that, it would be respectful of the customers that are forced to endure them.
What is appalling is the complete and total lack of communication from ANET that they are even addressing this issue.
Actually post a source for both please. I have been following the dev posts in this forum at least and havent seen what you are referring to.
Here is the link for #1
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Queues-for-WvW-The-Official-Thread/first
They have appearantly been working on this for 5 months now LOL, with no fix
But I have never seen anything even close to relating to #2.
Well yeah, we should all know about that one. That is hardly relevant to what is happening now. Even if it part of the current problem is the exact same issue from then, letting it go 5 months without being addressed is deplorable and unprofessional.
Current information only please. So far there doesnt appear to be any.
Actually post a source for both please. I have been following the dev posts in this forum at least and havent seen what you are referring to.
How did you come up with this?
The biggest loser here is Kaineng…they finally get to tier 1 and suddenly all the tier 1 servers bail 3 tiers below xD
Kaineng isn’t in T1. SoR however is for the very first time this week.
JQ is full of tripe. 5 ppl having a nice fight outside SM, they freaking send 20+ to deal with it XD
Bitterly disappointed how the average JQ zerger has zero pvp ability :P
Please note that this is some random angry person that does not represent our server as a whole. Most of us have nothing but respect for JQ.
SoS Mercs still prove that they are the crushing force of Oceanic timezone. Sadly we do not have the numbers so we cant be everywhere at once.
SoR should have taken Hills from JQ light years ago , instead they want to take our bay when JQ is trying to take it as well. SoR must be too scared to fight JQ.
Everyone fights 2v1. That is the nature of this game and three sided fights. Most commanders do things for tactical reasons and not because they are ‘scared’. Please try to remain respectful and clean. People on other servers are no ‘different’ than you
Well that lasted all of 2 seconds before disappearing into thin air…..
And Thanks for the score update.
A lot of people are going to come here and tell you that you’re going to get 1-3 shot by EVERYONE. This isn’t true. It happens for sure, but it’s not an every fight occurrence if you play intelligently:
Sure not everyone will do it. However, any competent player with a gap closer will because they realize that not only is a cannon staff ele free points and easy to kill, they are deadly if left alone.
Interesting comment about blasting staff. It would be a no brainer to user if there was no AoE target limit of course… but I guess you are always sure to have 5 people in radius? Personally, when I switch to staff from D/D for a choke/keep I retrait my second arcane ability to pick it up. I want to make sure I always hit 5 people to maximize effectiveness (given that I am specced and geared for D/D primarily)
When you play Zerker spec you’re going for the most amount of damage possible not necessarily hit the most amount of people. An extra 10 points in Arcane will cost you elsewhere lowering said damage.
As a staff ele you aren’t maximizing your damage output if you don’t hit the maximum amount of targets. I would rather have a 6k hits on 5 targets than a 8k hit one one. If we are referring to other types of fights, then using a staff period isn’t optimal.
He didn’t specify pvp or pve. I’ll be the first to agree that condition specs aren’t great in pvp but they do have a use in pve. Not my thing though.
Fair enough. I always have a hard time considering PvE in a game designed for PvP. Heh
On a side note, can some explain to me what I am missing about the forum rules so I don’t get banned again? I got infracted for quoting a post, but the post I quoted didn’t get infracted. I must be missing something, so any help would be appreciated.
And yeah that bug has been around forever, which is why I think the map populations themselves were actually lowered. Not the bug itself was made worse, it’s just more apparent now.
So how do you rationalize this with the people reporting queues for zones where they have the outmanned buff?
The bug has been doing this forever, outmanned buff, as far as we know, is percentage related. Lower the cap and the percentage is also a much lower number (compared to before), but it’s also probably much less spread apart. Combine this with queue bug and it doesn’t take a lot of queue bugged people to cause it. There are of coarse much easier to create reasons somebody would queue into outmanned, like a guild on the map suddenly logs. Not everything is black and white.
You might be right that the population cap was lowered and that might be a independent issue contributing to the problem. The rest is pure speculation and has occurred enough different times that you really cant rationalize it as being anything but a bug with how population is determined.
There should never be an instance of there being 20 people in a zone for an hour while people outside of the zone are spending that hour in a queue. It doesn’t add up.
@ covenn answer is no. Everyone is speculating on what is going on with the ques. Not even you yourself know.
Yes, I know I don’t know. Never claimed too bro. Like everyone else, I am just feeling the symptoms of the problem. Unfortunately it is affecting some more than others, especially people with internet or crashing issues.
Take Indo for example, he hasn’t been able to lead much during prime time lately because after waiting in queue for an hour, he drops internet like after 45 minutes, and then has to start all over.
It is making the game unplayable for some people.
Interesting comment about blasting staff. It would be a no brainer to user if there was no AoE target limit of course… but I guess you are always sure to have 5 people in radius? Personally, when I switch to staff from D/D for a choke/keep I retrait my second arcane ability to pick it up. I want to make sure I always hit 5 people to maximize effectiveness (given that I am specced and geared for D/D primarily)
And yeah that bug has been around forever, which is why I think the map populations themselves were actually lowered. Not the bug itself was made worse, it’s just more apparent now.
So how do you rationalize this with the people reporting queues for zones where they have the outmanned buff?
Excuses blaming it on que bug? For scores being close. lol SoR had multi hour ques all weekend, and has had consistent ques during NA primitive. Everyone is having ques. So don’t make excuse saying that if you didn’t have ques you would steam roll us lmao.
Even outmanned on SoR BL having many more JQ and SoS than us at some times we have held our own. So more people or less people we all have ques and If the numbers are even and its a close game than its all about skill.
I am on you server and I am going to ask you to edit this post to keep it civil. Each and every server with a halfway decent population is being affected by the queue bug. When you cant get commanders into maps or guilds together, it is going to have an impact.
Please remove the kitten talking. SoR does not act like BG on the boards.
I’m tired of fighting JQ at this point not going to lie. While we fight our hearts out against guilds we once fought on other servers and have good fights, we go to sleep and wake up to +400 PPT and fully upgraded keeps from Euro Prime time.
I understand and feel your pain. SoR has to deal with a couple of months of that from BG. Same issue, except they were ticking away at 600+ then. Heh
So back to the Scores. Score update please.
Will JQ take the lead today? I hope we can hold on but that last score update didn’t look promising. SoR was bottom ppt and JQ was just getting started.
I suspect they will. Honestly, for our first week in T1 …if we can keep it within a 20k score of the leader by reset, I will be happy with our performance.
I can kill thieves too if they let me. A good thief won’t let me kill them even when I ‘win’.
My only issue with a mesmer leading is due to the fact that in order to use portals the most effectively, they have to leave the zerg they are leading to do so temporarily. Not only that, attempting to set up a portal in some circumstance (like behind a choke point) might make you lose your commander.
Just ignore him and move on. Can we get a score update it’s been almost 2 hours since last :X
Point taken…. and yeah, a score update would be great.
You put quotes on the queue bug thread because you don’t understand what the actual problem is. Then you failed to respond to everyone that called you out.
Nobody understands what the actual problem is, including you, again, get over yourself.
I understand the symptoms and what is occurring. Of course I don’t know ‘why’, because I obviously don’t have access to the source code.
You, however, don’t even seem to grasp the symptoms or the impact.
@Celeron
Also, do you care to explain how the queue ‘lotto’ that is happening is better than an actual queue order?
I know I am not the only one to have been on either side of this coin: Wait in queue for 45 minutes only to have someone log in and get a pop for the same BL in 5 minutes.
You are dead wrong and being selfish. There is nothing better about anybody waiting in a queue for hours due to bugs. It makes it difficult for friends and guilds to play together, people to change characters, or for people that crash to get back in the game.
Go to a different map. SoS only has queues on 2 maps usually, during both of our primetimes. Sometimes a 3rd depending on who’s there (tsym under the current system could probably fill a map by themselves – never play with them so cant verify).
This current system is creating the closest match T1 has seen in a really long time. Maybe it is you who should get over themselves.
Also to make it perfectly clear, I put quotes on “queue bug” for a reason. It’s limiting the maps to about 50-60 players each server. This is helping the match immensely. Now go cry somewhere else that you can’t outnumber a server to win.
You put quotes on the queue bug thread because you don’t understand what the actual problem is. Then you failed to respond to everyone that called you out.
Also, you out number our server, so I am not sure what you are complaining about. I am not on JQ.