I’m not proposing they leave offhand dagger with only one skill.
dancing dagger is superbly over costed… and I’m not sure its all that important to p/d pve plan… which is pretty much just chaining sneak attacks not kiting with cripple…
I’d also like some advice on s/d in spvp. I’ve been running it alongside d/p (to get cnd burst via weapon swap) but have found myself constantly staying on d/p. What situations, however narrow, is s/d a superior set?
as for dancing dagger… well I’m hoping they are going to remove it completely, and that’s why they haven’t done anything to improve it.
I’ve been running d/p / s/d through a bit of spvp recently and have noticed the burst AND damage are pitiful compared to the d/d spec I traditionally run. I don’t know if I’m doing something wrong but the few stacks of might you get do not make up for the ~20% damage loss from losing the other grandmaster traits (initiative isn’t over 6 very often…).
Don’t get me wrong, black powder is very abusable since many players neglect bringing CC (or timing it well), but it hardly seems ‘overpowered’. It is a strong spec against builds that do not sustain themselves since it can grind them out, but against others it is forced to retreat.
I guess whether it should be allowed to retreat so easily is another matter, but it works both ways… the thief can’t keep up with you either without burning initiative.
Yea it’s just a % increase in total DPS. Basically the damage “formula” is
(attack power)/(targets armor) * (stuff)
Where (stuff) is just individual modifiers that vary between different attacks. Because attack power affects normal hits and critical hits, any % increase in attack power will produce the same % increase in DPS.
Crits modify damage by giving some attacks an extra multiplier. When considering crits, it is important to factor in that only a fraction of attacks get this multiplier, and that it starts at 150% (so adding 15% crit damage will only make your crits hit 10% harder, and so on).
If you want a “pure damage” number (to say predict how hard your backstabs might hit), the easiest way would be to look at the skill tool tip, which estimates damage based off an arbitrary armor value for your level. You can then estimate how much a particular stat increase will affect the damage outcome of that skill.
d/p does have a huge counter to it and that is a ranged interrupt. When they put down BP, that’s already a give away of what their going to do next. The window is big so interrupt them at this point; chances are you’ll interrupt their HS making them blow 9 initiative with no gain. At that point the thief would have to retreat or die since he has practically no initiative left. I found this out when I was running a s/p build (I had just hit 80). A d/p thief tried to take me and a newly leveled 80 warrior on and all I did was use HS whenever the thief used BP and it would prevent her from using stealth for a significant time each time. She tried using her SB to escape, I used mine to catch up as she couldn’t get far since she had hardly no initiative left. I pulled her in using scorpion wire and the warrior made quick work of her. The end.
Good tip, still annoying if you get hit with the initial shot from black powder though..
People aren’t very smart… u just stand in the thieve’s black powder and they get revealed when they try to heartseeker through it…..
But anyway, it won’t get nerfed because it’s not a burst spec anyway. If anything it will get BUFFED like they said—by raising thief damage overall so he can deal more without going full glass. “Half glass” d/p builds just get eaten by people who aren’t afraid of blackpowder… it’s no big deal to lose 2 attacks out of a 9 strike attack really, but people panic and start dodging away like mad
(edited by ens.9854)
Yea that’s pretty much what he said.
Keep in mind that all burning you apply is the same damage anyway, although some tooltips are bugged and show “stacks” of burning. Spirit weapons do have their own damage however.
You generally don’t want to completely ignore vitality and toughness on any build, so putting soldier stats (P/V/T) on your armor will give you a good foundation for anything a guardian can do.
I’m a spvp’er mainly, so I can’t comment on food and how easily it will let you reach these points, maybe somebody can add to this?
Depends on your stats really.
60 power would increase by 60/(current attack)
Or about 2% increase if you have 3000 power
7% crit would increase by 7/(150 +crit dmg) x (crit chance)
so for 40% chance and 50% damage
+7% crit = 7/(200) x .4 = 1.4% increase
The “balance” point where 7% crit dmg = 60 power depends mainly on your current crit chance, because this is quite volatile while power hovers mainly between 2500-3000.
At 0 extra crit damage, you need at least 42% crit chance @3000 power. At 50 extra crit damage, you need at least 57% crit chance @3000 power. If you only have 2500 power, your crit chance would need to be about 10% higher to make crit dmg worth it (because 60 power represents a bigger increase).
The example given in SotG was using it to counter a guardian using shelter. However, you have to recognize that the guardian is going to heal, set up your positioning so you can properly land your interrupt, and then actually execute it. Right now, we’re all just speculating about possibilities on paper, but it will not be so easy in practice.
You also need to realize that if you interrupted a shelter, the guardian is 100% screwed because it goes on full cooldown, not the 4s CD interrupted heals normally go on. Since most guards are in the habit of popping their shelter while already in melee (why would you take shelter otherwise?), I don’t think it’s unreasonable for it to get interrupted often enough to be a problem, and warriors running it could very well be bringing multiple interrupts (say mace/shield) for just this purpose.
That said, it has taken me the better part of my first 40 ranks on thief to get really comfortable interrupting heals with steal… an instant shadow stepping daze. Although shelter has a pretty obvious animation when it goes off, I think MOST warriors will be hard pressed to react in time (trigger signet, find an available interrupt, use it) to do much about it, leading them to blow signet late and waste it. If it were me, I’d just use signet when I saw them low and start hitting interrupts in anticipation.
Don’t know that it’s a “build” but pistol and signet have stun, mantra and shatter have dazes… with mesmer runes and stun sigils you could keep somebody locked down for a very long time.
OP I think it’s “Dogged March” not dotted… lol
Any thoughts on what you will give up to spec 30 points into discipline?
if that is the case, and without having tested it, so in theory it’s bad… ppl will lose all initiative ridiculously fast…
People will actually not lose initiative faster because they are making it to where both FS and LS together will cost the same initiative as FS currently does
Yes, but the whole point of this was to combat boon machines… and at 4 init per boon, and you don’t get to choose which one, you are gonna burn through it pretty fast. If you can spam larc strike until it hits, that would be nice…
Necro obviously needs a condition that prevents critical hits.
What are people’s opinions on +3% dmg/boon on targets that don’t have protection? Will this allow ungodly eviscerates? Can’t warriors just wait til protection runs its course (it never lasts long) and unleash?
What trait are we predicting that warriors drop to go 30 into discipline.. and is it good enough to run on a non-burst warrior?
so many questions
Thieves didn’t get buffed at all lol. They took a pretty massive nerf to mug and gained a super situational ability to sloooowly strip boons that only helps them in the rare situation where everybody is attacking the bunker.
Everybody was ignoring that fact; I knew I was throwing myself under the bus.
You are coming up with a situation that you would be screwed in anyway. There has never been a counter for getting corrupted after purity anyway…
I guess somebody needs to point it out
Warrior gets +21% dmg
You take -33% damage because you HAVE protection…
Gonna have to wait and see TBH, some unanswered questions:
If we always flip the skill even on a miss, does it persist long enough to precast?
Do we retain the unblockable part?
Which boons are prioritized?
I also agree that the init cost is prohibitive, boons are reapplied VERY often… the skill does too much other stuff to lower it though
Yeah not sure about the whole retal thing… it is only OP if it is AOE, so why dont they only let you take retal once per attack? I have never felt like I could let a 100b warrior sit on me just b/c I had retal up, not even close.
Guards being forced back toward meditation builds again…
+3% damage seems… bonkers. I am actually fine with the damage IF you already have protection; but what is going to happen to non bunkers that run every boon EXCEPT protection? They will get totally shredded!
Most players don’t even know all the places they are getting might/vigor from; regen is super abundant from teammates… fury is all over some classes trait lines. In fact the only boon that is legitimately difficult to get is the one this change is designed to counter, protection!
I doubt we’ll see an HP increase, that’s part of our charm.
Otherwise you hit the nail on the head. In fact, some people already get angry when they see a tanky guardian… now they will have the tools to ruin our lives.
Access is easy, 180 power is probably good enough to run (+5% dmg). and then they just need to run mace, shield, rifle or hammer (most popular war wvw weap?)
Some builds can try to trigger a blind from voj… otherwise we are forced to run stability? Hopefully it won’t be TOO widespread a warrior spec
Arcane thievery existed since launch. Yet engis are alive are they not?
Don’t arcane thievery/bountiful theft (thief trait) only take a single stack for like.. 5 seconds?
Does this mean they will be changed to steal stacks/duration with the next update?
I don’t even use scepter on my offensive guard anymore, just swd/focus and greatsword. Seems like it is much better to keep pressuring with gap closers and massive sustain than switch to a weapon that is destined to be subpar (plus naturally have lower DPS just b/c it is ranged). Nothing can profitably melee a guard anyway so go nuts.
And yes, you can do some stuff in wvw melee; teleporting in with a few massive swings/CC effects at proper moments can be pretty effective.
For a long time I’ve believed guardians have some of the strongest CC effects that can easily be chained into each other. Unfortunately I’ve had little success in making a pvp build out of the idea that doesn’t feel pretty weak on its own—you can lock down targets for a zerg to destroy but will otherwise fold pretty hard if you get focused.
30 points in zeal + 2 lyssa runes + 4 rune of lich gives you +50% duration to your immobilize, giving you
Chains of light (scepter), 3 second immobilize, 20s CD, no line of sight needed
Zealot’s embrace (hammer), 3 second immobilize, 15s base CD, line attack
Signet of Wrath (utility), 4.5 second immobilize, 30s base CD
These all apply vuln with a 10 pt trait in zeal.
Taking 20-30 points in zeal naturally leads one to want spirit hammer, but it seems fairly unreliable now that it is killed absurdly easily when fighting groups of 2+. Using torch instead of shield can give some pretty good burning in small fights since people are going to be blowing CDs on your CC effects instead. Ultimately it feels like you wind up with too poor of survivability for a relatively small “impact”.
Has anybody been able to make a successful build out of this idea?
EDIT:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-7s-3l;0RFk30S3-H-90;9;4J-T-J59;204B;148-5-V06;1KJW7X7X76gg
this is one iteration I’ve been using that is semi-successful, for reference
(edited by ens.9854)
focus skill #5 will basically win you every reasonable pve fight. 1 hand sword is the highest dps weapon to pair with focus, plus has an additional blind. If you want to get tricky, however, you can open with scepter/focus, and trigger the shield right before switching to a heavy weapon like hammer/greatsword.
Low level guardian is all about using blinds and blocks to steamroll the mobs with slow attack speed.
Take 5 from virtues and put it in honor for another symbol buff IMO. The 25 point trait is fairly pathetic damage wise, and you could use the extra healing symbols or larger symbols trait very effectively.
You might consider taking staff over hammer because it works well with altruistic healing.
Defender’s flame is a pretty weak option to me, when you could have purity or meditation cooldown (which for even 1 meditation is fine) in the same slot. The burn is very short duration and you have a very limited number of blocks. Hell, even 70 toughness to your allies might be better (2-2.5% damage reduction).
Signet of mercy is almost never used, for good reason. It is slow to cast, unreliable without stability in PVP, and can be basically reproduced on a shorter cooldown just by using sanctuary and reviving them (a CD further reduced by a 10 pt trait in virtues).
In place of signet you have a myriad of options – stand your ground or contemplation of purity for PVP, wall of reflection/shield of avenger for WvW and dungeons, retreat! for pve—or sanctuary like I said. Signet of Judgement is often over looked, but provides a static 10% damage reduction regardless of how high your armor already is; so it can be useful on an already armor based build.
For gear you should probably be looking to get at least some healing power to make the most of selfless daring and the regen from symbols; though you don’t need to go full healing by any means. For pvp I’m a fan of dwayna runes because of the massive regen you get from them, but many people use soldier. For dungeons, and I’m no expert, usually you want to run boon duration runes to make the most of protection/regen for your teammates.
You forgot to mention that it has a worse effect and longer cool down than the other rez signets (necro/ele).
You get significant uptime on burning with mace/torch, and it can represent a significant portion of your dps on a defensive build (say right hand strength + symbols 0/30/10/30/0 with toughness gear). This type of build works fairly well with the all stat gear—healing scales well with dodge rolls/regen, enough toughness to make the healing matter, you get high crit rate for the crit dmg, good burning uptime for condi dmg.
The problem is that often times other people are going to be bringing burning too, and they don’t stack at all. A bonus is that this setup is the only 1 handed setup to be AOE with constant symbols, aoe burn, and an aoe block. Because it is symbol based it has good synergy with hammer, just less in the way of burning.
(edited by ens.9854)
Staff and shield are the best when you are stacking boon duration, otherwise stick to higher damage AOE options like hammer/GS + scepter for when you have to sit back. You still get good support with your utilities even without speccing much.
I guess there’s merit in bringing every weapon, but 1h sword/mace are weak unless your build specifically focuses on them (right hand strength/symbols).
Well it would naturally depend on what your friends build was.
Also specific mobs seem to have special rules. For instance, some will absolutely not ever change targets (except for very brief periods) from whoever aggros them first. Some behave like this but certain actions will trigger them to change targets, such as trying to revive.
Basically having high armor will give you a better chance that you will be chosen as the target whenever the current one is dropped for some reason. This is why thieves can be (used to be!?!?!) very valuable since cloaking squishier targets gives mobs a chance to switch. Normally you are going to be kiting bosses anyway; but I’d rather kite them with my guardian than have some paper elementalist or w/e get beat down.
Renewed Focus is great, quick cooldown lots of versatility and does a great job of saving my life on numerous occasions.
As for the tomes: I think wrath is underrated. It provides strong damage and damage support and gives a guardian decent range aoe damage that is very helpful in WvW during keep defense/seige. My only gripe with it, is that it has way too long of a cooldown. As for Courage, it is very powerful under some circumstances, but I find it lacking as an Oh crap! button since it takes a very long time to cast and get its big heal off.
Staff ele’s regular weapon skills completely outshine everything our elite does. 1 meteor storm is more damage over a larger area and is 10x safer and takes a fraction of the time to use compared to spamming 5-6 tome attacks.
Courage fairs a little better, though not much better than blast finishers, but stopping everything to heal people once every 3 minutes is not the kind of effect I really want to bring along to a long fight (RF gives you an extra instant 2500 heal + regen + protection)…. maybe if it could revive instead it would be worth it.
This is pretty disappointing to me
I love figure out my build puzzles
Simplest Possible Answer:
50 / 3000 = 0.016666 or 1.6%
This is the best answer so far.
Total damage value (combination of attack power/weapon damage/ skill coefficient) is simply divided by your armor value to produce the damage value. There is no real meaning in assigning an arbitrary armor value to 0% DR because this formula leads to diminishing returns. You are better off looking at how much extra reduction you get from an increase.
Since armor values typically hover around 3000, its safe to just consider every 30 toughness is ~1% DR. Extreme cases will be different.
I cry out in my sleep for this
This would be a good balance for tiny asura whose animations you cant see. But I am unclear what “cast bars” are, can you link an example?
I think heartseeker should be ground targeted instead of homing. I’d rather have to aim it manually cause it would make it better for general mobility
Yea spirit weapons are pretty much not viable anymore. They seem really good 1v1 until somebody throws down 1 aoe condition attack and completely wipes them out.
There are no easy ways to fight condi engi. Grenades are easy to combat, just pressure the engi with melee and he will stop tossing nades; wall of reflection buys time if you like that sort of thing. Conditions themselves are more difficult.
Generally it will require using 2 defensive shells to survive at all as a guard vs this build. This means using the absolute resolution + renewed focus plus either the meditations(plus purity) or pure of voice shell.
If your goal is to kill take them down efficiently, you better be full glass cannon with one of the above condition frameworks (meditations has the most synergy from toughness/crit dmg). If they choose to fight you, you can probably win; but usually they will retreat and drop bombs that pulse (making blind/block and condition removal less useful) on top of dealing very high damage making it impossible to pressure them. Usually you want to switch to a ranged set to try and force them back to pistols.
Its really the bombs that make them so strong since they let them play defensive AND deal heavy damage.
Soldier armor, cleric everything else. Even with this boost to HP there are still builds/bosses that can easily instagib you; but at least you’ll be able to handle most of them.
Also consider shield for xtra protection on the mates?
(edited by ens.9854)
I feel obligated to point out that the chance each mob aggros onto you (and not your teammates) is affected by how much armor your character has.
This means you can expect to get focused much less if you switch your guardian to zerker gear. It also means that the difference you notice between your warrior and guardian is more than just that you are more skilled…
http://forums.intothemists.com/index.php?/topic/46-top-gw2-tournament-builds/
possibly slightly oudated..?
Trash talk is a sign that a game still has some life left in it.
Well… d/p + regen and 2 initiative on stealth will pretty much let you solo just about anything. Just drop black powder and then heartseeker before your last attack on the 2nd auto attack chain. Backstab, rinse and repeat.
Then you basically work up to either 30 in shadow arts for more regen, or 30 in crits for hidden killer.
d/d will deal slightly more dmg (you can backstab slightly more often), but you’ll have to deal with getting hit some more.
Why would you intentionally add a mechanic that makes bad players into better ones?
Also people would still cry HS spam with a 1s cooldown anyway.
Needs condi removal, especially when you might accidentally just kill yourself with SY! in wvw….
You could just take contemplation of purity instead of a shout and hope its enough or move 10 pts into valor for 20% cd reduction for it. Personally I would try to get at least 20 in virtues for absolute resolution + renewed focus.
Guard dominated the whole way from level 1 in pve. Off just weapon skills you get massive aoe from greatsword, and can tank champs with the blinds/blocks from sword/focus. Sword/focus trivializes every small scale encounter more or less.
With 15 points in radiance, you can spam virtue of justice for AoE blind, and it recharges every time you drop an enemy, negating massive numbers of attacks.
Meditations are cheap/easy heals that don’t require any healing power to be effective. Judge’s keeps you moving smoothly from mob to mob.
Late game you can stack your dungeon squad with boons (protection) and play around with some fancy builds that take a bit more setup (altruistic healing, symbols, etc)
Oh, and the answer to your question is ‘yes’. Guardians can bring the pain while simply avoiding all the damage wholesale.
They are already looking at ways to let you obtain higher rank gear, presumably with excess glory. This is good cause people are starting to push millions of excess.
I also agree, however, that there could always be more stuff to get.