^ all of this is true.
I don’t want any nerf btw, but IF something it’s nerfed, it must be the OP side of the combo and not a single 30 trait points which engis got for 10.
There are no OP sides, the combo is the problem.
If terror is nerfed, you won’t be forced to take Spite IX because you already use it.
If Terror is nerfed you will be forced to take Dhuumfire regardless of whether you had it before or not.
what? you want to nerf my terror build? Nerf Dhuumfire instead of terror
I don’t want Dhuumfire nerfed because I use it.
nice…
now a well place AoE fear on top of AoE bleeds and torment can fully heal you back…
Let’s assume that this fear-heal would actually be effective enough to “fully heal you back”.
Why would anyone not take Terror? And why would anyone who runs a condi build not take Dhuumfire to compensate for the loss of damage?
especially if you add this:
edit: I would even go so far as to say increase the burning duration to 6 seconds standard while converting terror damage into healing for bleeding even while in DS.
You’d completely eliminate any kind of build diversity.
Some sort of condition siphoning could certainly be a nice way to improve sustain, but it shouldn’t be connected to Terror.
Also, what Bhawb said, except I don’t think that a duration reduction for burning would change anything…
Rahar is 100% on the money.
^ I would very much like to see videos of terrormancers 1v3+ in WvW.
I assume you are referencing our lack of survivability…?
Why do people bring up this argument to justify the gigantic and un-counterable amount of damage a Dhuum/Terror build can put out?
Both needs adjustment.
And even though Rahar has only ~100 hours on his necro and only “read through a bit of the first page” he has a better understanding of the topic than some necro veterans on this thread.
Yep you right, its the combo. But Dhuumfire is about 1/3 of that combo, terror is 2/3 of total effect.
Just because it ticks for less damage doesn’t mean that the total amount isn’t more. Unlike burning you can’t have a 50%+ fear uptime on your opponent.
No one is complaining about Dhuumfire.
Really? -.-
If you think the combo its too strong, guess what, stop using it. Let the noobs use that combo and call it the noob build, like the hearth seeker spam of thieves.
Right… because that’s what people do, pick weaker builds on purpose.
1) the much lower damage multiplier for torment
2) loss of a condition type
That would be the point.
3) probably a much shorter range
Why?
@ balancing torment’s damage for such a trait: Since PvP is the problem you’d have to assume that your target is always moving. No player stands still because he has torment on him.
So in a pure condi build torment on a moving target is about 25% of burning. If the trait would stay the same expect for the condition, then either 2 or 3 stacks would be appropriate.
However, other players suggested models w/o icd but a lower chance to proc, which could work as well.
Before cry babies get Necro nerfed into the ground because of conditions:
Necros have almost NO viable stun breakers. They are arguably one of the most control-vulnerable classes in the game.
People who are afraid the necro will be “nerfed into the ground” need to understand this: the source of all the complaints is burning, the damage spikes you can combo with it is too big.
This:
You can replace burning with some more bleeds and it’ll be the same.
…would actually overnerf the necro (damage wise). Part of the problem is the extra cleansing spot that burning is covering. So replacing it with bleeding would absolutley not be the same.
It has been suggested many times already, but here it is again: burning →torment.
On the other hand we have our survivabilty: still very underpowered.
That’s why necro promoters get super defensive when it comes to nerfing damage… as if the lack of withstanding focus fire entitles us to have more damage.
No, survivability will be buffed. Regardless Burning/Terror will be nerfed, and Bhawb already said it: in favor of build diversity Dhuumfire is probably getting the nerf, not Terror.
Recent changes made staff a bit more useful with the fear…
Staff, with fear being buffed, is more of a PvP weapon and useless in long range, failing to function well in PvE or offer good playability combos with trait lines.
Reaper’s Mark didn’t get a buff.
Fear (or Terror damage) in general wasn’t buffend except an extended base duration for Doom and Spectral Wall now doing fear instead of vulnerability.
The staff actually got a big hit in the nuts with the recent patch:
Putrid Mark is bugged, no more ally cleansing and only 3 conditions per enemy transfered (…everyone hopes it’s just a bug and not a stealth nerf).
Also every mark goes on full cooldown if the cast is interrupted or canceled.
However, if you trait and gear properly you can make it work for PvE as well as PvP.
On topic: sure, everyone would be happy to see more weapon choices.
You forgot to list the most important one: The Minstrel!
seriously though, what class can remove enough conditions to negate a lot of necro’s damage? I mean like full on complete counter to necro’s conditions.
a necro.
Although in this case it’s not about negating damage, but doing even more damage by transfering later than your opponent.
And to everyone who said people just have to use more cleanses and need a few weeks to adept:
There’s just so much you can do, which for some classes just isn’t enough.
People won’t get an epiphany next week and go like “oh, look at that! there are some cleanses that I never noticed before… better use them now to deal with necros”.
TL-DR: Necros are only a threat inside of Scepter range. The profession has extremely low damage output at long range and bad mobility. Kite to win.
Easier said than done.
With a chill on marks you can close in on your opponent rather easily. Then there’s the golem’s cripple and knockdown, and of course Dark Path.
And let’s not forget that most other classes are more effective at close range as well.
“Kite to win” really applies more to necro than to any other class, and considering that you’ll also proc burning with marks, your ranged damage isn’t that bad at all.
I’m not good at math but I think it’s something like 4 times more ground covered.
Area of a circle is Pi times radius squared, so double the radius = 4 times the area.
As far as I know, DS can tank falling damage only if the damage is less than your remaining DS. If it isn’t, it kills you just as well.
No, Shroud makes your regular hp pool immune to falling damage.
-Locust Signet for perma move speed buff.
Actually, sometimes JPs are harder with speed buffs on you.
-Flesh Wurm in case your LifeForce runs dry you can just quick cast/kill the Wurm for just enough LF to go into DS if there is nothing nearby to kill.
Which can also be done with the Flesh Golem, Bone Fiend and Shadow Fiend.
Or it could be the multiplier for stun reduction is rounding up to 33% from 25%, but I am not sure why.
I think you made a mistake here.
33% of 75 is indeed 24,75.
But that would mean a 67% reduction for stun duration, not -33%.
And by the way, we just got Tainted Shackles! That skill does direct+condition damage and immobilized on up to 5 targets.
Don’t get me wrong, I love that new skill, but how come we got that if we allegedly have to much aoe to warrant an increased base size for marks?
Well, you could go with a 30/10/0/0/30 build with perma critting ground targeted wells and increased dmg to all foes under 50% HP while still having a solid AoE on your staff. Just a quick example on the top of mu head, since 30/10/0/0/30 is the build I run in WvW.
Yes, you could have more damage, but not more aoe.
If you want Greater Marks and Focused Rituals then you can’t have Deathly Perception and Close to Death at the same time as well.
Actually, every build using the staff would be buffed because you just freed up a mandatory trait. But the fact remains: you can’t have more aoe.
In the last BoC podcast with Tenderly they were talking about a conversation with a dev who commented on making increased mark size standard: there’s a 90% chance it’s not going to happen. The reason for this is that there’s too much aoe in WvW/PvP already, and with the necro’s good access to aoe the staff probably won’t get this buff.
But (!!!) here’s the reason why this argument doesn’t hold up:
I think everyone agrees by now that if there’s going to be a change then the most reasonable one would be:
- increased size by default
- unblockable is combined with Staff Mastery
- Staff Mastery becomes master tier
As it is now, you either take Greater Marks or you don’t run the staff.
So would this change really improve the necro’s aoe?
Imo no, maybe even the opposite, because if this change is made then some (or even most) players wouldn’t have unblockable marks. For them it would actually be a nerf.
So the real question is: if you had 10 extra trait points that you don’t need to invest in Death Magic, would you gain more aoe if you placed them in a different line?
Considering that absolutely nobody uses the staff w/o Greater Marks, can anyone else see how larger mark size being standard would actually increase aoe? Because I can’t…
I really tried to make it as fast as possible, I almost pressed f1+3 at the same time, but it still worked for me.
I tried Doom→Mark and Mark→Doom, I also tried to recreate your bug with and without Path of Midnight.
My fears stacked everytime and Doom never failed.
It works for me, also tested on a golem in the HotM.
So I guess they did fix those runes already, except the tooltip is still wrong, it should just say “immune to fear!” -_-
Btw multiplying would actually decrease the effect of the rune if done after substracting condition duration first. A 100% duration would end up being 56,25% instead of 50%. So there must be a different reason for getting -75%.
(edited by flow.6043)
Weird… I’ve never had Dark Path behave any other way.
- Remove Daze & Knock-back being extended by +% stun duration effects.
- Remove Fear, Daze & Knock-back being reduced by -% stun duration effects.
I’m pretty sure the Flesh Golem’s knockdown isn’t affected by the Sigil of Paralyzation.
- Redefine to everyone what “stun” means, renaming/ changing stun-breakers accordingly.
That’s not necessary. All you need to know is that stun breaks cancel control effects.
Changing names or anything like that would just complicate things.
“Necros are the easiest to kill, they were pre-patch and they are now, that’s why other players focus on you.” If being able to do a lot of damage while being the easiest to kill isn’t the definition of glass cannon, you’re right, I must not get it.
This is true even for the most tanky necro builds, it’s our class mechanic, the lack of mobility/boons etc that makes us easy targets. This has nothing to do with being a glass cannon or not.
As for the rest of your arguments, I don’t know what else to tell you… maybe you’re just trolling me at this point.
High offense at the cost of low defense. If you can have high damage and a good defense at the same time then you don’t fulfill the “glass” criteria, hence you’re not a glass cannon… just a cannon.
A condition necro could only be considered as a glass canon if he goes 30 30 0 0 10/30 20 0 0 20 with a rampager amulet and a power necro 30 10 0 0 30/30 20 0 0 20 with a berserker amulet.
See? He gets it.
Oh, I didn’t mean to argue with you either.
You were the only one who posted his trait choices with hp and armor stats, so I just took that to make an example.
They will heartseeker into you revealing themselves for 3 seconds.
lol hopefully I remember this the next time I see a D/P thief .
I’m being trained the entire fight, that’s because those people are adapting and realizing the counter to a Necromancer is killing them.
I’d say the counter to every class is killing them, but whatever…
Anyway, what you are describing is nothing new, and it’s certainly not because of the damage you do.
Necros are the easiest to kill, they were pre-patch and they are now, that’s why other players focus on you.
If a Necromancer runs this build, they have chosen to run the “glass cannon” equivalent. They’re going for maximum damage, and you guessed it, that means running armor that focuses on Condition Damage;
You just don’t get it.
Glass cannon doesn’t mean what you are describing here.
If maximum damage was all that is required to run a GC build, then every necro with pure rabid or carrion (or a mix of both) would match that description.
you keep bringing up Rampager like it’s some sort of armor you would run as a Condition Necro, when it doesn’t even focus on Condition Damage.
Actually yes, that is an armor a condition necro would use.
But that is not why I mentioned it. Rampager’s gear doesn’t have any defensive attributes, neither has berserker’s. And that is what makes a glass cannon “glassy”:
High offense at the cost of low defense.
And this does not apply to rabid.
The glass cannon doesn’t come from their health and armor though, it comes from their inability to avoid damage.
Huh? Now you’re just arguing against yourself.
Avoiding damage alltogether is irrelevant to what prefix or trait choices you made for your build.
A Necromancer running this is glass cannon because they die to pressure.
A Mesmer running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to spikes.
A Thief running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to spikes.
A Warrior running glass cannon is glass cannon because they die to pressure.
What?
Every class can die to all kinds of damage…
And again, you don’t understand what glass cannon means.
People need time to Adapt.
There’s only so much you can do, which for some classes just isn’t enough. That won’t change, there’s no way to adept any more than players already do.
just a few of them…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Please-nerf-necro-s
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Necromancer-not-OP-People-need-to-L2P
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Dear-Anet-do-not-completely-nerf-Necro/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Dhuumfire-Change-Burning-to-Torment/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Terror-Nerf-Incoming/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Why-we-are-being-viewed-as-OP/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/I-faced-a-30-30-10-necro-on-my-thief-in-WvW/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Necro-confirmed-OP-by-Anet/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Are-necros-op-now/
Otherwise it is an absolute damage drop off without much to compensate for it.
Well, since the damage is supposed to be lower that would be the point, other than covering one less condition spot for cleansing.
Ok, while i see what you’re saying about the tradeoffs with going GC and having some protection, I think you are overlooking one major difference, and that is the necro’s complete lack of escapes, blocks, invulns, etc.
I’m not overlooking it, I’m very aware of the necro’s shortcomings. But I don’t understand why people feel entitled to more damage because of them.
Survivability and damage are two very different issues.
Torment would be a lot worse for power builds.
…which doesn’t matter because power builds take Close to Death anyway.
If you sit there and let all of my conditions tick their full duration AND you refuse to exploit my complete lack of stability, then you deserve to die.
…said the necro, who never played any other class.
Btw the extra damage in PvE is just meh… not only for burning itself but duration stacking conditions are always in danger of being canceled out by other players.
So if you go 30 in Spite you’re most of the time better off taking Close to Death.
Start with the staff instead.
Mark 2-4, so you combo weakness on the poison field.
Then go into Death Shroud, Weakening Shroud helps here to squeeze in Enfeebling Blood, then DS 2+3 and DS5 either before or after that. Then back out of Shroud to your scepter/dagger, you increase the damage here if you have a Sigil of Geomancy or Hydromancy.
That’s just a basic construct. If you can throw in some more fears by corrupting stability, Spectral Wall or Reaper’s Mark then even better.
Also, keep in mind that this burst is stronger the more conditions are on your target before you start this sequence.
(edited by flow.6043)
the only thing I would disagree with is that I think my 0/30/20/20/0 build is more survivable than the 0/30/20/0/20 build, I have played alot of time with both and have full rabbid and full carrion sets of armor. I find carrion armor and rabbid trinkets are the best combination for survivability and damage. I have 25k hp, 2.2 armor (maybe more) and 1400 condition damage before stacks and food which is nice.
I also dont rely on life stealing/vampire traits.
Alright, so in your case a switch to 30/20/20/0/0 from you current 0/30/20/20/0 build would mean you lose 200 vitality… and that’s it. You could still have your carrion/rabid gear with 23k hp and 2.2k armor. There’s absolutely nothing glassy about this, yet it’s all you need to pull off a Dhuum/Terror build.
So I call bs when someone says those builds are squishy.
Apparently we are in disagreement about what a glass canon is.
The “glass” part of the term comes from being fragile, as in not having the toughness or vitality you’d usually get from rabid or carrion. That applies to berserker or rampager, anything else is just a canon if you still get high damage with it.
So again, rabid (or carrion) means your build is not glassy, period. But it so happens that this prefix gets you the highest damage out of Dhuumfire and Terror, so there really is no trade-off for damage vs defense here.
What?? You think settling a disagreement about what builds are stronger in a round of tPvP by actually fighting it out is “medieval”?
But you would do the very same thing if the argument was about Street Fighter 4???
Btw I’m hyped to see that match!
I’d argue that Dhuumfire isn’t that powerful at all, and on several conditions:
#1: To make use of dhuumire you have to make the condition equivalent of a glass cannon build. You have to go 30 into spite, and you have to have enough precision for it to proc reliably. This is powerful and all, but it decreases the necromancer’s statistical defense (toughness + vitality), and that is the only defense necromancer’s have.
Not true.
You can still wear regular rabid gear with a 30/30/10 or 30/20/20 build. How did players trait before Dhuumfire was introduced? 0/30/20/0/20… or 10 in Blood Magic for Mark of Evasion…?
You don’t have to run rampager’s with a Dhuumfire build, and even then: you can have Spectral Walk, Well of Power or Darkness, Spectral Wall… there are all kinds of utilities that buff your defense.
People claim that Dhuum/Terror builds are glass cannons so it’s fine to have a strong burst in return… but it’s not! There’s nothing glassy about a build that has 100 toughness less (or 100 vitality or some points in Soul Reaping) than a regular pre-patch condition build.
In fact, you could argue that +30% condition duration from Spite improves your defense because your fears are longer.
(edited by flow.6043)
Terror nerfs are just rumored among the players, anet never made a statement about this. How did you even come up with a number like 50-60%?
Anyway… I should try runes of the necro myself sometime if they give you a total of 80 trait points :P
If 20 in blood was a standard and dhuumfire made people stop putting points into that waste of a trait-line, I may have just found where the average Necro went from awful to good.
Yeah, I know.
It was just an example. Not everyone ran 20 in BM of course, which actually supports my argument. Maybe some had 15 in Soul Reaping for Last Gasp, or had 30 in Death Magic…
Either way, by traits alone you won’t get much tankier. The armor, amulet etc can stay the same, it’s not like you have to wear rampager or berserker.
Dhuumfire could use a slight tweak down (or change, i think burning modifier is quite high, and however you wanna balance it, it might be to strong, giving it 3 bleed stacks might be better).
*torment
One of the reasons why this is so effective is that your bleed stacks are protected because other conditions take up cleansing spots.
With more bleeding you leave your damage source more exposed to be cleansed, also you’d have more problems with the 25 stack cap.
Btw, in case anyone’s wondering, this has already been tested: torment is cleansed before bleeding.
There is a trend here, and, since I’m not sure you’ll find it, here it is: Any build that focuses solely on offense has defensive weaknesses. Those offensive builds excel when they are played well and timed well, and suffer when they are misplayed and counterplayed.
Simply put: Just see my earlier comment. If you attack a Dhuumterror Necromancer, they are forced into a much less potent defensive style of play, or they die. If you allow them to sit there are stack up their 5000 damage per second over two seconds, you deserve to die bleeding, burning, poisoned, and running for your life.
Well.. this is where we disagree then.
You can still run your regular rabid gear or whatever, you can pick defensive runes and sigils, you can pick defensive utilities. Actually, the patch made Spectral wall and Well of Power rather effective defensive skills. Who’s to say that a Dhuumterror-mancer can’t use those..
Also, what kind of trait distribution were people running before? The standard 0/30/20/20/0… or something along those lines, I imagine. So when you trait 30/20/20/0/0 instead then all you lose is 200 vitality = 2k hp… not a big deal with an 18k hp pool (or 25k with carrion).
This is exactly why I’ll be very upset if they nerf terror because of what our “representative” says. Terror has been fine for months. If anything needs to be nerfed, its burning. Either take it away completely (preferable) or nerf its up time/cool down. No one asked for burning. We didn’t need burning. We asked for survivability so we could be the advertised attrition class. Not to be a condition burst class. Nerfing terror will destroy the other builds that rely on it. The ones that DON’T take Dumbfire.
I agree 100% with that.
I just can’t see why you cannot support the buffs we got that have finaly made us A, a popular class, and B. dangerous.
…You just say nerf and give necros more defense because that seems to be the way YOU want the class to be, and some of us do not agree with you.
A. yes we are very popular now :/
B. We are too dangerous in 1v1s, not dangerous at all when we’re outnumbered.
Just look at what Kravick wrote: “We asked for survivability so we could be the advertised attrition class.”
It’s not just me who wants the class to works this way…
Necromancers couldn’t keep up with the condition clears and it was impossible for necros to cover their bleed stack.
I don’t agree with that entirely, but for the sake of the argument, ok:
With Tainted Shackles you get 2 more conditions that have cleansing priority over bleeding.
If Dhuumfire’s burning was replaced by torment, you would still be able to 1. do more damage than with bleeding alone, 2. protect your bleeds with another condi spot.
Burning is overkill, it is un-down-shuttable (<- yeah, that’s a word…) by all the condi cleanses other classes have available.
And no, it would not be fine on other classes, but guess what… they don’t have that kind of condition pressure available. No class ever had up until now.
Engineer.
Yeah, if engineers had torment and fear+terror then people would complain about Incendiary Powder too… or the combination of it all.
Necromancers have been brought into line with the offensive abilities of other classes, and people are used to being scared of Mesmers, Thieves, and Warriors. They aren’t used to being scared of Necromancers, and since they don’t understand it, they say it’s overpowered.
this^^
it’s funny how this kind of damage/CC combo is fine on other classes but it’s OP on necro because it’s new to them.
Everyone who says it is fine just doesn’t understand how much damage this really does and how little other classes can do about it.
And no, it would not be fine on other classes, but guess what… they don’t have that kind of condition pressure available. No class ever had up until now.
Also, it’s not just about the damage spike while fearing someone, it’s the fact that this:
there are an abundance of complete condition cleanses.
..just isn’t true.
The problem isn’t solved by reducing fear durations.
Burning, bleeding and torment will still be on your opponent. If that was cleansed automatically at the end of fear, then yeah.. all this was is a 5-10k damage spike. But that isn’t the case, with all the other conditions (weakness, chill, cripple, immobilized…) other classes have to cover more cleansing spots than before.
@OreoWolf
The only one who suggested nerfing Terror in the SotG was Zombify, no one from anet ever said that.
Your arguments are perfectly reasonable though, nerfing Terror in favor of Dhuumfire is just limiting build diversity by forcing everyone to take up burning to compensate.
Dhuumfire needs to go.
Btw Gryph, the Sigil of Paralyzation was already fixed, and again… reducing fear durations won’t do anything.
Hey guys, I have a secret to tell you.
Come in closer, you won’t want to miss this. Ready? Listen closely.
Necromancers who run 30/30/10/0/0 have no invulnerability frames or stealth and very poor teleports. To beat them, you hit them with attacks.
I hope I haven’t just screwed over the entire Necromancer sub-race.
Oooooh… thx, man!
I guess everyone who ever complained didn’t try attacking.
Guys, call off your dogs, problem solved!
You don’t play necro, do you? And/or never played against a good one with another class…?
Putting doom back to a flat 1 second fear and making terror not have the +50% damage on conditioned foes should be enough of a fix…
Nerfing Terror only to reduce the damage spike on Dhuum/Terror builds would just force everyone to take Dhuumfire to compensate.
Also, 1 sec instead of 1,5 for Doom wouldn’t do much. Maybe sometimes you’d get 1 fear tick less depending on your timing and build. But ultimately the real problem remains, other classes can’t cleanse fast enough.
Pre patch, necromancers couldn’t roam WvW, no one suggested it, and barely anyone did it in the first place. Why? Because their low mobility made it difficult. Now, that they can stand their ground, people are crying? This is pathetic.
First of all, there were people promoting necros as a roaming class pre-patch, I was one of them.
Saying that necros couldn’t stand their ground before is just not true.
On the other hand, the con argument always was bad mobility/survivability. This hasn’t changed, so I’m really wondering how people think we are now any better at solo roaming than we were before.
Actually, my friend, I completely agree with you….
My support warrior, who can remove more than 6 conditions has faced a condition necro (the type you talked about)) and got eaten alive. That simply doesn’t happen. My girl’s weakness is burst physical dmg, and a build that is designed specifically to remove conditions died from a necro… Never in the history of my WvW has it happened, ever. It’s over the top (coming from a person who would defend necros till the end).
Love,
A fellow Necro lover.Edit: Yeah I coulda went with Mending and -40% condi food, but that shouldn’t be the case.
This.
Other classes, who specifically build to counter conditions can’t keep up. Then there are people arguing we should let the meta adept first… well, how much more can you do besides melandru and lemongrass? And how is this supposed to be balance when all classes have to max out their anti-condi defense (which is still not enough) just because of the necro?
I’m confused, which profession is OP again?
Don’t get me wrong, I always enjoy yishis’ videos, but I never think that thieves are OP while watching him. Much rather: If I (with my necro) was part of that group he attacked, there was no way that he could have killed a single ally of mine… even pre-patch.
Again, Dhuumfire by itself… not op. In combo with Terror/bleeding/torment: too strong. Engenieers don’t have that combo, that’s why Incendiary Powder is fine for them, even as an adept trait.