Even with the super safe sd, 20066, Condi Engis are still a PITA to be dealt with. If possible, avoid them. The condi pressure they can put on you is insane, and without a full condi cleanse (Lyssa) you have close to no way to nuke them easily.
Just try to keep your distance and kite with your SB. Also, be sure to cleanse the poison before using your heal (assuming you’re using Withdraw).
In general, however, avoid them at all cost. Don’t go 1v1 them on point, and if it is a teamfight, condi engis will melt and won’t do anything troublesome.
Oh, another thing : don’t be afraid of using your utilities (infiltrators Signet, Shadowstep) to move faster if the situation really asks for it!
The fact that a class has a lot of viable specs does not mean that every engi you face has access to all that kind of things.
Engis usually run 2/3 kits unless they are zerker (and in that case they only have burst damage). Try to figure out which kits he is using and play at your advantage.
Also, another thing:
why are they so tanky, immune to everything yet do so much damage and CC?..they also have incredible mobility. They just seem to have everything and no weaknesses whatsoever
The exact same thing can be said for warriors. But again, warriors in PvP rarely have incredible mobility.
For starters, having “more points” at the end of the match means nothing. Sure, having 0 points means that you didn’t do very well, but the point system is totally garbage and by no means shows how well a player performed.
That said, the thief’s role in a PvP match (assuming you are playing the nuker/roamer role, with a Shortbow as second weapon) is to keep the enemy home defender constantly sticked on his home point: try to figure out if the enemies have a dedicated close point defender, and whenever you see him moving away from the point, get back to it quickly to decap it (you can also cap it, but just getting a decap is usually enough). Of course, don’t go away from a winnable teamfight just to decap (and letting your mates lose the teamfight because you left).
If you keep the enemy constantly glued to their home point, you will usually have the advantage somewhere else (be it mid or your close), and you can quickly turn the tides by jumping in the teamfight and finish off weakened players.
Pay attention to the map, and try to figure out where your help is needed by watching the player icons. Use the shortbow when the fight is too messy to go melee.
Try not to die. If you see a fight is lost, go elsewhere (go decap a node or go back to your home point to stall the enemy and giving your mates the time to get back in game).
The worst thing you could do as a thief is trying to be the hero and starting to 1v1 bunkers when the node is already theirs. If you are absolutely confident in your skills, then 1v1ing a guy when is trying to get back to cap their home point can be ok, but only if your team doesn’t need your help elsewhere. And of course, if things start to go dire in said 1v1, go back immediately. The other guy will be busy to cap the point and you will have time to recover and join your mates. As a thief you always have the mobility advantage over any class.
As long as your team is holding 2 points, you can harass all you want.
In general, try to always be thinking “Am I doing the right thing to help my team NOW?”
I haven’t come close to half health 1v1 yet. 1v2 I can hold indefinitely unless they are DPS. 1v3 really depends on how much DPS they bring.
You’ve never faced a Condi necro then.
I’d say even a Condi engi would kill you without many problems.
But I agree that against a power class you would easily tank all the damage you want.
They USUALLY dont carry a single stunbreaker.
Nope. Not P/D or S/D: D/D is the spec they run (fought two of them in consequent matches), and yes they have perma evade when using endurance and extra endurance and initiative regen on traits. 3 direct damage builds were attacking the thief and it took near 1 minute to kill it and by that time it downed 2 of us with the insane bleeding (I had 20 stacks, a lot of damage when they have maxed condi).
You really got killed by a DD, caltrops Condi thief?
Pretty much what Rome said.
In a 1v1 against a DS guard, you can also take advantage of the enemy’s eagerness to kill you quickly by staying in shortbow and playing defense (switch to shortbow) while they blow their CDs and Virtues.
Keep in mind that you will melt just by Retailation, Smite Condition (can hit up to 3,5k) and the Burning ticks, so if you get hit by one of their hard hitters (full GS rotation, Focus #5, Torch #4, Hammer #2, Sword #3) you will be pretty much dead.
If you miss your Steal, which is not that rare given all their blinds and blocks, disengage ASAP. If you miss your stolen skill, start playing defense until you have it up again.
Also, try understanding their attack animations, their cool downs and what is the third utility they have slotted alongside Smite Condition and Judge Intervention.
Lighting+Fire.
Runes can be either Strength for more damage, Ogre (same reason as before) or Lyssa (For the much needed condi clear). I run with Lyssa though, being OHKOed by engis that randomly spam conditions on me is not fun.
Also, D/P is not dead. It’s just way more difficult and less forgiving to use than 10 0 0 30 30 SD. But it still does his job (mobility+insane burst damage+safestomps) effectively.
I’m having issues with Turret Engis as well with regards to people going afk and letting their specs play by themselves.
D/P is still very popular afaik and I still play it on my Thief in WvW. It practically hard-counters many Warrior builds if played right (not that many do however) and the Blind spam is highly effective against pretty much every non-AI, non-condition spam, build.
Sooo… That leaves :
Warriors (even if Axe/Shield+Gs hardcounter DP in WvW)
Guardians (even if medi guards hardcounter DP)
DD thieves (wow)
ZERK rangers (wow)
Actually easiest to play are this order:
1. Decap Engi
2. Hambow
3. Spirit ranger
4. mm necroP/D is really dependent on the quality of opponent given the dependency on CnD.
I agree with this… All you gotta do is carry some condi clear and you are just fine against a pd thief
Lolwut?
Some Condi clear?
I do GvG with my thief quite often.
I usually play DP with Shadow Arts, but sometimes swap to trickery if the situation calls for it.
SP trickery is a good choice too, but more risky to play.
DD is still pretty solid as well, though I’ve never run it in a GvG.
I will not discuss my strategies publicly though, but I can share some videos of my PoV in some GvGs if you like.
Signed,
A bad Ele player
Fixed it for you.
Learn your and the thief class before replying please.
Based on my personal experience, and assuming you are still using Lyssa Runes with Shadowstep, Shadow Refuge and Infiltrato Signet, these are my ideas:
Beatable:
_Any kind of Power based warrior (some will take longer but as long as you dodge what must be dodged you can beat them)
_Any kind of power based mesmer.
_Bunker guardians (not a wise choice to 1v1 them though)
_Any thief
_zerk engis (assuming you hit them first and they don’t use Supply Crate)
_zerker rangers
_staff eles
Hardly beatable: (you can still beat them, but it requires everything to go perfectly and even one mistake can mess you up greatly):
_spirit/trap ranger
_Condi necro (only if you have Lyssa, else it’s impossible)
_Condi Warrior (easier with Lyssa)
_Scepter/x Ele
_power necro
“Impossible” (don’t even think about 1v1 them unless you know of that they are really bad):
_MM necro (unless you are able to kite the mobs away)
_Condi Engineer
_Medi Guard
_Condi Necro (if you don’t have Lyssa)
_DD Ele
_Condi PU mesmer
_Turret engi (they are becoming disgustingly popular nowadays)
Should have covered all the most common specs in pvp.
Of course, you should know that you should never 1v1 someone as a thief unless the situation really demands for it. You are better as quickly changing the outcome of a team fight rather than a dueler.
Also, keep in mind that DP is not a 1v1 spec. Unless your opponents are using stupid builds or are terrible, you will never have an easy time fighting them. The only class you have a natural advantage against are mesmers, but even then a well timed Shatter can 1shot you if you are not aware.
D/P practically hard-counters any Axe + Greatsword Warrior. Keep and eye out for Berserker Stance and after that it’s GG because none of their attacks is fast enough to counter your Blind spam.
Engis are a different story. Their condition spam really is hard to keep up with.
D/P trickery is NOT a hardcounter, but it sure is a even match with a Axe+GS Warrior.
D/P SA is actually totally countered by a Axe+GS warrior.
Blind spam is only effective against bad players. Good players will learn to step out from Blinding Powder and a single Axe auto chain will hit you for up to 6-7k.
I think many of the people who have posted here have not faced a good AXe/Shield+GS warrior, because if they did they would not write most of the things they’ve written.
I’ve rarely seen a worse reasoning than the OP’s, but hey, this world never ceases to surprise me.
How does one beat thees 2 classes?
I am talking about wvwI mean engis have ridiculous conditon damage in the aoe form (the worst one possible) that they can just spam at their feet and lots of boons, and lets not forget they are supeer tanky too.
I know you can always outrun them, but what the hell how do you even begin to fight them? Shure you can win every now and then (80% of the time you run for it) but still it is like trying to break a wall with a pice of drift wood.Same with warriors that use great sword / axe shield and runes of strength.
They are also plenty tanky and can eviscerate for double of what you can backstab.
Also lots of passive healing and lots mobility, so even if things start going your way they can just run circles until they are 100% and get their cooldowns back, then they strike a pose, flex and murder you.I’v tried d/d d/p and s/p and every set seems to just lack the damage or survivability to finish them before they shove you in to the ground or until you are forced to run.
Before the ferocity nerf i could beat them, but now it’s just a game of how fast can you run away from the immovable object that wants to introduce you to the ground.
Condi Engis can be killed if you run a Shadow Arts spec, withj D/P, even if it is really hard, especially after nerf.
Axe/Shield+GS Warriors cannot be killed with a Shadow Arts spec. You have to burst them down really fast using a D/P trickery build.
The fact that unless they hit you with Eviscerate (meaning that they will kill you on the spot) they will keep the passive regeneration from Adrenaline Health is ridiculous.
Against Axe/Shield+GS Warriors, you must be ready to dodge the following:
1: Shield Bash
2: Eviscerate
3: Rush.
Usually even after a dodged Shield Bash they will follow with Eviscerate, so be ready to double dodge.
You HAVE to kill them fast. If the fight gets too long they will destroy you thanks to evades (GS#3), passive healing, dodges (which can hit you for up to 3k) and other cheesy stuff.
These are both specs that hardcounter D/x thieves to be honest, so don’t feel “that” bad if you lose to them.
[quote=3989026;Poplolita.2638:
Note: I’m from a top tier (jade sea [Fr]) server. [/quote]
I knew there was something odd in the way you were replying, as the suggestions I made were absolutely correct and not even a good necro can do much if you follow them.
The fact that your only backup for your theories is that “you are from a high tier (?) server such as Jade Sea” means that there is something totally wrong in you.
Drop elixer gun for nades and trait for grenadier. Most of their bleeds are going to come from the scepter which is 900 range. Just keep your distance and load them up with conditions.
I laughed.
Anyway, best way to beat a necro as an engi is to get Elixir R for “insurance”, and at least ONE stunbreaker.
If you don’t bring those you can already say GG. You won’t beat any decent condi necro.
Assuming you have these, you have to predict when they are going to use their heal and their condi transfers (Dagger #4 and Staff #4). Staff #4 is difficult to avoid because the casting animation is the same as staff#2 & #3, so just stay mobile and try to avoid the marks. Dagger #4 has a low cast time but a long travel time, so if you keep your distance you should have no problems in avoiding it.
The Reaper’s Mark CAN and MUST be dodged. Always save a dodge for it.
If you deny them Dagger #4, then they only have a full condi clear (their heal, easily interruptable) and a partial condi clear on a mid-high cd (staff #4).
The best thing would be if you actually manage to reflect dagger#4 using your shield #4, that way you will transfer 3 of your conditions to him. I always laugh when this happens.
Anyway, to sum it up:
Absolutely dodge Reaper’s Mark.
Absolutely dodge OR reflect Dagger #4: keep your distance in order to be prepared to act when they use it.
Don’t use your stunbreaker at the first Fear.
If you get spited, use Elixir R.
Rupt their heal with Shield #5 or Shield #4.
Don’t waste your dodges when the necro is immobilized or CCed.
Don’t detonate your turret, pick it up for shorter CD.
(edited by hihey.1075)
A GOOD, and I mean GOOD, D/D ele will never lose to any thief spec besides S/D (and even then it would be extremely hard for the S/D to come on top of his opponent).
I didnt take PD into consideration, as I tend to avoid thinking about cheesy specs.
will this take another 8 month to fix?
Probably longer, seeing as it isn’t broken, there’s just a high quantity of fools that think it is.
Yknow what I did when pets started dealing twice as much damage as normal? I reported it. I didn’t come on the forums claiming it had always been like that. Grow up.
And neither did I. I hopped ingame and tested out the iWarlock thoroughly. It has precisely the same damage coefficient and scaling as pre-patch. People are just having fits because of the strength runes and battle sigil combo boosting damage.
Good testing bro.
HAHAHAHHAHA!
On a side note:
Fixed a bug that caused NPCs and player-summoned creatures to hit for excessive damage in sPvP.
So, how many of these did you stock up?
I equip them from time to time in dueling servers, they are kitten fun, shouting YARR every 20s is the ultimate pleasure.
D/P trickery is FAR from a one-trick-pony – which is the exact reason why it’s the only spec on thief I don’t consider boring.
Other than 6 in trickery, what other trait lines would be good to invest in? I’ve been using a D/P+SB signet/might stacking build that does some good damage and some nice survivability. What would you suggest?
EDIT: I haven’t made a lot of my own builds, but this is what I quickly came up with when inspired by your post. What changes would you make?
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaVlsMp8pVOx0J8PNBNhw9qUz8O83yaFA-T1hFwAAeCAmU/5iuAkK/Ku/gVlgJOFAAA-w
This thread is referring to sPvP. The build you posted is absolutely useless in sPvP.
Anyway, even for WvW, your damage is pitiful. You wont be doing any damage and you would still melt to conditions. Toughness is too high.
What runes are those o.O
EDIT: the build Chicago Jack is referring to is this one: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaVl0Mp7pVOx0J8PNBNhsNR8O83yaFA-T5AFwACeCAVLDA4EAAA
The things that are not filled can be choosen among these:
Runes: Either Lyssa, Ogre, Scholar or Strength
Critical Strikes traits: pick 2 between I, II, III, VI, VIII
Heal: can be either Hide in Shadows or Withdraw.
Second Sigil on Shortbow: really anything can fit.
Personally, the build I use in sPvP is this one:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaVl0Mp7pVOx0J8PNBNBt9w7QE8OMfpMaFAA-TZBFwACeCAx2foxhAoaZAAnAAA
(edited by hihey.1075)
That’s a nice and insightful list.
The devs should put it on the stickies.
No incentive. Being at the “top” doesn’t mean anything.
PvPers don’t care about legendaries.
The only reason would be “self esteem”. But who cares about that, really? Even if one cared, the “visibility” of being at the top is close to non-existant. Maybe something REALLY exclusive that EVERYONE in the game could see? I would say a title, but there are so many titles in this game people wouldn’t probably understand what it means.
If the tournaments were rewarding TRUE prizes (and not in-game prizes), then it would be different. Good players already have all they need – “playing to get item X” is not something a GOOD player will do. That is for casuals.
Hey Guys,
Since all my Friends are like “Thief is the hardest class in PvP” i want to know: Is it really that hard to play him? I’m not trolling or anything but all i see is their s/d #3 skill spamm which doesnt seem to be that hard :/
It is not hard at all. Thieves just complain because they don’t’ want a nerf. it is not hard to go in stealth every 4 seconds then just wait around till target blows their cool downs then spam backstab or whatever you plan on spamming (because that is literally the only thing a Thief does).
The class as itself is a joke but with the broken stealth mechanic is just ridiculous. Not to mention all the PvE (aka WvW) Thieves thinking they are pro (such a joke).
Its skill floor for Thief is by far one of the lowest, only higher than Mesmer. If you are decent at playing PvP games you should not die on a Thief at all, in any situation. Just stealth and run. It doesn’t get any easier.
(Note all the pro players begged Anet to change the horrible stealth in this game before they all jumped ship which happened almost a year and half ago)
Learn to play dude.
Played my thief in spvp tonight. I was wrecking this necro, but he feared me and started to run. I pursued relentlessly (as any good thief would). Ended up killing him. But then the Necro got mad saying, “Chase more bro.” So… I guess I’ll just stand in one spot as soon as the match starts from now on… I don’t understand the logic…
You should have said “thief op plz nerf”.
That’s what I say to all those that must say something after I killed them.
A lot of thief builds needed lyssa to be viable but that runes are pure crap now. Better to go all out dps and hope you down the guy before you blow up.
A lot of things can overload the blinds of DP (Grenades, bombs, Necro DS#4/#5). Eventually you are BOUND to get condiloaded if you are facing a decent opponent. Just 5 stacks of torment means 80% of my HP are gone. One fear (easily done through DS#4→#3) is more than enough for loading me with a Signet of Spite, or a Dhuumfire proc, or a Dark Path. An incendiary powder + Concussion bomb + Balthazar proc means death.
There are so many conditions floating around that an extra, on demand “full” condi clear is really needed, even if it takes more time to activate and I lose stability.
I tried Strength runes, they work until you get focused by a condi user.
Lyssa are still the best choice for me at least.
I still use them on my DP thief because they are the only way I can fight Condi Warriors, Spirit Rangers and Condi Necros.
In soloQ you need to carry your team so often that sometimes you end up doing things that you are not supposed to do with a team. I’d never go 1v1 a condi warrior on a point in a teamQ, but on SoloQ I am forced to. Hence, the need of Lyssa :/
Just nerf Nightmare Runes.
Why in heavens would you use kraits on a backstab build?
cuz of poison your heal cannot burst you up enough to have any chance of surviving the oncoming heartseeker or to survive another backstab.
Boo-hoo!
Anet nerf poison plz, too op, cant heal.
After patch lyssa runes converts up to 5 conditions into 9 sec of regen
While tooltip says: convert up to 5 conditions into boons/Discuss
#omgnerf
Nope. They convert conditions using this formula:
Blind: Fury
Bleed, Poison, Burn, Torment: Regeneration
Vulnerability: Protection
Weakness: Might
Cripple, Chilled, Immobilize: Swiftness
Confusion: Retaliation
Fear: Stability.
So if you use them for cleansing bleeds/poison/torment, all you will get is regen.
Your class/build?
Are you hitting your targets in the back?
Wow, this is new.
Rune of krait basilisk spiking from stealth requires a stunbreaker, condition clear, and heal (if backstabbed) to counter. Unless your a psychic and can dodge stealthed attacks.
I can dodge stealthed attacks.
But I admit, I’m quite the psychic.
This is why mesmer is not viable in high end tPvP……….. The amount of hate this proffesion gets everyday, it’s ridiculous.
Lol no, just no. Compared to thief, or even warrior/engi/necro, the hate mesmers get is absolutely nothing.
Take dagger offhand and roflstomp those Condi engis, please. They are polluting every game I play with that brainless bombspam
How can people say that Caed is a bad thief? Lol?
If a player is abusing Shadow Rejuvenation to constantly heal to full during a 1v1, then it doesnt make him any better than his opponent.
Always fun to see a scrub getting owned.
Still, your movements were so clunky that my eyes were crying.
The only nice thing you did was the Earthquake to interrupt his HS chain after he got condiloaded.
They should make a “Destroy all Arrow Carts in a 10k radius” trap.
Because a lot of people would always complain and/or make assuptions on the players of their team after the match had ended.
Since rank is absolutely meaningless in PvP, they did the right choice.
Also, decent players take less than a minute to understand if they are playing with noobs or not.
D/P trickery is, by far, the hardest spec to play in sPvP.
Is this a troll? Because only in some weirdo fourth dimension is D/P trickery the hardest thief build to be effective on. On-demand stealth + perma-blind? Please.
Between S/D, D/P and S/P, D/P is definitely the hardest.
S/D and S/P have evade frames AND condi clear. D/P only has stealth (which, against good players, doesnt matter much).
I know you’re not a good player, so I accept your mistaken opinion.
Warriors are balanced now IMHO. The nerf to LB, impale, Hammer and HS were perfect.
I keep using Lyssa on my DP and they work really well.
Maybe you’re committing to fights you shouldn’t?
I tried for the first time in my life a PD build with Balthazar Runes+Withdraw, and the confusion on steal.
I wreck even Condi Necros. I think it’s the best and most OP/cheese build ever. PU mesmers, engis, Warriors, they can’t do anything, really. And backstab thieves don’t do enough damage to kill me.
kittened. I’ll never roam anymore in WvW, I’ll only pvp from now on. Shame.Hahaha of course. By the sound of it you turned your p/d into a one trick pony. Balthazar rune is too hard to land on good players with Withdraw as it lands at the end of your heal, the aoe circle is so freaking small too, it wasn’t even worth running..
I mean I agree p/d is sort of cheesy to play but this coming from someone who’s been abusing D/P is a joke to me man.
The damage output from p/d is way too low unless you put REALLY good pressure, as in Sneak attack > cnd, Sneak attack.. without any gaps in between, which means you cannot reset & heal. You don’t have enough conditions to cover up your main source of damage, which will always be bleeds.
Try to fight p/d in a 1vX with guardians and eles involved, you wouldn’t last a minute with the build you just described lol.
On a sidenote: d/d still wrecks people, tbh. Atleast I am.
If you swap weapons when you use withdraw, you will still proc the effect on yourself.
Confusion+Torment+Bleed+Poison. Plus all the defense of 30 in SA and Dire gear.
PD is the easiest weaponset to play for WvW roaming, period. Every decent player knows this. With account bound armor I switched the Condi set of my engi on my thief and could experience it myself.
I’m not saying that who plays PD is a noob or anything. If you have fun playing that, please, do so. But, especially after the patch, I find it extremely boring, same as PU mesmer (with the exception that PD totally counters PU mesmers). It’s just not for me.