Guild Wars 2

Jerus.4350:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Jerus.4350:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Really? I love that traitline almost as much as I love the Hammer.

I also love the Gyro toolbelt skills. Only thing I am iffy on are the Gyros themselves.

Curious what about it in reference to dungeons/fractals? Seems like a lot of more passive stuff and things that will be possibly nice but used once in a blue moon.

All of the lines are great for PvP and pretty good for WvW.

The Adept and Minor lines need work to make them better in Dungeons/Fractals, but I think we all realize this.

That half of the line need work does not change the fact that this is probably our most synergistic traitline. A LOT more thought seems to have gone into it than—for example—the Revenant’s traitlines when we first got to play with it.

So you come into a thread talking about Dungeons/fractals and say the traits look great even though you realize that for dungeons/fractals they’re pretty kitten poor? Sorry just find it funny but good on ya, they are great for PVP/WvW, with HoT I’ll be clearing my 3rd engi’s inventory (full of ascended rings) and making him a WvW scrapper for sure.

I said I liked it. And I like it due to its potential and the internal synergies it aims for. Never said it was great.

I think what is there is good enough as a base for further improvement. Remember, the expansion has not released yet. Instead of accepting the weakness of the line as a fait accompli I think this is the time to actively deconstruct it and give feedback.

In short, I generally disagree with how you and others are writing off the entire line as unsalvageable. Our please should definitely not be things like ‘allow non-scrappers to use hammers’ and more like: ‘where my damage modifiers at? what am I suppose to do with the F-Gyro in PvE?’.

Voramoz.6790:

Our grandmaster minor increases our stun duration. News flash, scrapper cannot stun. There is not one stun in the whole spec. Engineers have a grand total of five stuns. Can you name them all? One is a ripoff from another profession. None in the elite spec. It should be daze, gyro detonation should blast. This whole reveal shows that they planned something else then canceled it at the last minute. Anet even forgot that blast+lightning is the normal way to get swiftness out of the lightning field and so they botched a trait to give swife on leap. Evey gyro should blast finisher on destruct. Guess what, scrapper also cannot blast finisher internally.

They failed to deliver us an elite specialization. It is very clear that the stomp rez bot was moved down from master minor, or improvised at the last minute due to the canceling of a real elite. Players who didn’t read the notes are not even aware of stomp rez bot and it is supposed to be the new elite mechanic.

This is nothing. Wait till the BWE lets us play this weak excuse for an elite specialization. That is when I’m going to drop my big post eviscerating it.

There is not a single thing that has ever made me think about quitting this game more than this reveal. When I think about elite specializations now, the only one I’m excited for is Berserker… And Engineer has always been my main…

The idea that synergy with other trait lines is a selling point is an insult to the players. This is not to say that elite spec trait lines stand on their own but this reveal, this spec is garbage. It would not surprise me one bit if three months after hot they “retool” scrapper and rerelease it with whatever they intended to release it with.

I wont deny that there are issues, but I think you make way too many assumptions here.

I agree that impact savant was most likely meant to affect Daze, so that should definitely be changed. You are wrong about not having any stuns though. We have a grand total of one in thunderclap.

I genuinely believe that they purposefully avoided giving us blast finishers. All except one come from engineer utilities anyway.

That said, I think we should have one on toolbelt and one on gyro. Would love to see one on hammer, but I do not think it will fit.

As for Shocking Speed, I think it is suppose to theoretically synergize with rapid regeneration, but I think it is all in all a lackluster trait. Minor and adept in general need work.

Bohne.9084:

Ah yeah I see. Thx for the clarification. Hm.. with perma stability you would get 5 stacks of Might extra and with boon duration 7+
Not bad…

Actually, it is bad, just for another reason.

To be worthy of use, it needs to be AoE and the power bonus 20% of toughness.

Or something like that. And since I know that all this is unlikely to happen, I rather see it replaced by something more useful.

Jerus.4350:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Really? I love that traitline almost as much as I love the Hammer.

I also love the Gyro toolbelt skills. Only thing I am iffy on are the Gyros themselves.

Curious what about it in reference to dungeons/fractals? Seems like a lot of more passive stuff and things that will be possibly nice but used once in a blue moon.

All of the lines are great for PvP and pretty good for WvW.

The Adept and Minor lines need work to make them better in Dungeons/Fractals, but I think we all realize this.

That half of the line need work does not change the fact that this is probably our most synergistic traitline. A LOT more thought seems to have gone into it than—for example—the Revenant’s traitlines when we first got to play with it.

Adamantium.3682:

I’m not sure you have the way Mass Momentum works right. You might, but I don’t think you do.

It says while you have stability you gain might. Interval 1 second. To me this means as long as you have stability you will get 1 stack of might every second. So you would be able to maintain 5 stacks for having perma stability. It’s not tied to the pulse interval of Juggernaut in any way. Similarly the hammer trait Perfectly Weighted combined with this trait would give you 3 stacks of might total.

It would be nice if it were longer, I agree. I just think it adds a little more than you have calculated OP.

This is correct. 7 Stacks with some Boon duration.

So about 15 – 16 perma stacks if you camp Juggernaut.

Raven.9603:

lorddarkflare.9186:

wolfyrik.2017:

lorddarkflare.9186:

I can see A-Net attempt to address the PvE concerns by having the gyro automatically come out and try to revive you if it is not on cooldown.

If it did and gave quickness instead of superspeed, this would be a great improvement, since you’d res faster (am I right in thinking quickness effects all actions including res?). Change the second minor to this (or better yet, add it) and we could be in business. Would still be situational but better.

In general, I think quickness would have been a MUCH more interesting ‘boon’ / ‘effect’ to base the class around. As the class exists now, I still think the change can be made without making us too powerful.

Maybe some tweaks to duration and an added cooldown to one or two traits.

they are giving the non-meta classes roles for group play. mesmer owns the quickness role. engies own the super speed. rangers probably get resistance.

Chronomancer has one quickness trait and one quickness skill. They do not use it as much as Scrappers use Super Speed.

Really? I love that traitline almost as much as I love the Hammer.

I also love the Gyro toolbelt skills. Only thing I am iffy on are the Gyros themselves.

wolfyrik.2017:

lorddarkflare.9186:

I can see A-Net attempt to address the PvE concerns by having the gyro automatically come out and try to revive you if it is not on cooldown.

If it did and gave quickness instead of superspeed, this would be a great improvement, since you’d res faster (am I right in thinking quickness effects all actions including res?). Change the second minor to this (or better yet, add it) and we could be in business. Would still be situational but better.

In general, I think quickness would have been a MUCH more interesting ‘boon’ / ‘effect’ to base the class around. As the class exists now, I still think the change can be made without making us too powerful.

Maybe some tweaks to duration and an added cooldown to one or two traits.

Jayze.9756:

when I watched the live stream I constantly found myself saying why take the med gyro when healing turret is better why take take the bulwark gyro when I can take toolkit why take the stealth gyro at all when supply crate and mortar kit offer so much more. its like turret 2.0 was hoping for so much from this elite spec and the only decents thing is the hammer and a few traits like ele thing the engi got handed a bad hand

Not even CLOSE to the Ele.

And actually, we have a better starting position than every Elite Spec except for Chronomancer.

And you complaint just outlines how ridiculously good healing turret is and how inherently versatile the IDEA of kits are (the implementation is even better)

Even if all Gyros were invulnerable for the entirety of their duration, kits would still be better and Healing Turret would still dominate.

I can see A-Net attempt to address the PvE concerns by having the gyro automatically come out and try to revive you if it is not on cooldown.

wolfyrik.2017:

lorddarkflare.9186:

wolfyrik.2017:

iKeostuKen.2738:

Elite gyro + function gyro. Equals a chance to do a double stomp on 2 foes at the same time without being interupted. It’s fine as it is.

One cleave, wide range or aoe attack from downed foe, both gryo’s fail, both stomps fail. 30 second cooldown. You achieved nothing and have your elite on cooldown.

Thinking outside the box is great, if only that darned reality would stop getting in the way.

Elixir S is not an elite. And unless you used it whilst under heavy condi pressure/pre-shadow step/stealth/mist form, at least ONE of the stomps is going through.

Really, in all likely-hood both of them are going through.

Reading too many things at once, thought we were on about stealth drone, but still, Elixir S would then be on cooldown, wasted. It doesn’t really change anything. All it takes is a simple attack to stop the gyro, then both downed players can work on getting back up while you concentrate on one of them. Maybe you’ve stalled for time, either way the gyro has achieved nothing except taken up some of your boon. Well whooppee doo for that core traitline. I don’t understand how you think one engi could double stomp all alone with a downed F-drone on cooldown? how would both get through, stealth isn’t invulnerability and the tankiest gyro is bascially paper.

What? This makes little sense.

Elixir S itself makes you invulnerable, so it is a guaranteed safe stomp unless you seriously miscalculated the situation.

Toss Elixir S is its toolbelt skill, and that should stealth the Gyro for 6 seconds while it potentially stability stomps (with stabilizing core) the downed foe.

The second stomp can fail. Sure. But stealth stomps are nearly always safe because the downed enemy is often too confused to properly locate where the invisible foe is and tries to lash out at anything else.

Not 100%, but still a solid idea and not one that deserves to be tossed aside unceremoniously like you attempted to.

Not ‘ironic’ at all. Have you seen hammer? It is pretty much a souped up Ranger Greatsword.

As for your question: we do not know. Seems unlikely that we would be able to activate it while we are downed, but it would be great if we could.

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

I like this. I still think a modest cooldown makes sense.

The big issue here is Final Salvo.

I’m open to a cooldown not exceeding 10 seconds. I would like to see it in action before determining one way or another, I just feel the times that you would want it back-to-back are SO niche that we should just let that be an option the Engineer has.

Nerfing the base mechanic because of a potential GM trait problem annoys me greatly. That sounds backwards to me.

Final Salvo/Stabilizing Core are issues for your buff, not the original design. 8 – 10 seconds is good. Maybe even a bit too good.

And no back-to-back use is just something we will have to live without as a penalty for increased synergy between traits.

Final Salvo would require a harsh nerf at the very least and Stabilizing Core would need a 20 – 25 sec cooldown.

Fair enough. I would gladly put the cooldown on Stabilizing Core instead of the Function Gyro. Sign me up. Don’t nerf the base mechanic because of a potential broken trait combo is all I’m saying.

As for Final Salvo? Just make it so replacing your current Function Gyro with a new one isn’t considered destroying. It won’t make an AOE field, it won’t daze, it’s not a self destruct. Let’s say you call it back to you and then it performs function on another target instead.

Done and done. What do you think?

A cooldown is still really needed.

If you and are fighting a player near another downed opponent, you can forever divide your current opponent’s attention between you and the down player.

That is TOO good.

I think you’re stretching it now. Downed bodies don’t last that long. In this hypothetical situation the downed body is either going to be (a) stomped by your gyro, (b) cleaved to death by you while fighting the other guy, or © revived by the other guy. This is going to happen within 10-15s just like it always does no matter how many times they manage to kill your gyro and you resummon it in that time. I don’t see this being a problem at all.

Right, but the ability to attempt the stomp on multiple occasions without risk to yourself is too much.

The other proposed buff makes this trait worthy of its slot, so I do not think it really needs this additional buff.

This requires the profession be rebuilt from scratch.

We are top-down designed around the idea of kits being in the utility slot. The toolbelt exist explicitly to mitigate the fact that kits ‘take up’ a utility slot.

The proper solution is to give the class HEAVY incentives to use non-Kits. Those incentives already exist for Elixirs. We need HGH level incentives for the other utility types as well.

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

I like this. I still think a modest cooldown makes sense.

The big issue here is Final Salvo.

I’m open to a cooldown not exceeding 10 seconds. I would like to see it in action before determining one way or another, I just feel the times that you would want it back-to-back are SO niche that we should just let that be an option the Engineer has.

Nerfing the base mechanic because of a potential GM trait problem annoys me greatly. That sounds backwards to me.

Final Salvo/Stabilizing Core are issues for your buff, not the original design. 8 – 10 seconds is good. Maybe even a bit too good.

And no back-to-back use is just something we will have to live without as a penalty for increased synergy between traits.

Final Salvo would require a harsh nerf at the very least and Stabilizing Core would need a 20 – 25 sec cooldown.

Fair enough. I would gladly put the cooldown on Stabilizing Core instead of the Function Gyro. Sign me up. Don’t nerf the base mechanic because of a potential broken trait combo is all I’m saying.

As for Final Salvo? Just make it so replacing your current Function Gyro with a new one isn’t considered destroying. It won’t make an AOE field, it won’t daze, it’s not a self destruct. Let’s say you call it back to you and then it performs function on another target instead.

Done and done. What do you think?

A cooldown is still really needed.

If you and are fighting a player near another downed opponent, you can forever divide your current opponent’s attention between you and the down player.

That is TOO good.

wolfyrik.2017:

iKeostuKen.2738:

Elite gyro + function gyro. Equals a chance to do a double stomp on 2 foes at the same time without being interupted. It’s fine as it is.

One cleave, wide range or aoe attack from downed foe, both gryo’s fail, both stomps fail. 30 second cooldown. You achieved nothing and have your elite on cooldown.

Thinking outside the box is great, if only that darned reality would stop getting in the way.

Elixir S is not an elite. And unless you used it whilst under heavy condi pressure/pre-shadow step/stealth/mist form, at least ONE of the stomps is going through.

Really, in all likely-hood both of them are going through.

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

I like this. I still think a modest cooldown makes sense.

The big issue here is Final Salvo.

I’m open to a cooldown not exceeding 10 seconds. I would like to see it in action before determining one way or another, I just feel the times that you would want it back-to-back are SO niche that we should just let that be an option the Engineer has.

Nerfing the base mechanic because of a potential GM trait problem annoys me greatly. That sounds backwards to me.

Final Salvo/Stabilizing Core are issues for your buff, not the original design. 8 – 10 seconds is good. Maybe even a bit too good.

And no back-to-back use is just something we will have to live without as a penalty for increased synergy between traits.

Final Salvo would require a harsh nerf at the very least and Stabilizing Core would need a 20 – 25 sec cooldown.

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

I like this. I still think a modest cooldown makes sense.

The big issue here is Final Salvo.

I like the direction of your thoughts, but I see some issues.

Function Gyro only really needs a cooldown reduction. It is otherwise fine.

Dynamic Gyro should probably deploy a single purge gyro on successful evade and have a 10 second cooldown.

Relentless Gyro should summon a bulwark gyro when you are CC’ed. 30 second cooldown.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Lite.3819:

This is pretty sad considering grenades auto already does poor damage. You’d think a melee based weapon would you more damage than a ranged based one.

Poor personal damage, but the vulnerability stacking obviously makes up for it.

Either way, this game is not really balanced around melee vs. ranged DPS in that sense, even if it should be. An elementalist does way more damage with the staff than double daggers do.

And the Scrapper is a defensive tree akin to Alchemy or Inventions, and the hammer obviously isn’t designed to compete with traditional DPS options.

These specializations were designed to fill holes in professions, not change up the strengths they already have. I don’t see the hammer replacing p/p, rifle, or the grenade kit since the Scrapper isn’t meant to replace a damage tree or utility but bolster our defenses.

Hammer does obsolete P/S though. Poor P/S

Cele Necros are doing quite well for themselves without breaking the meta.

The Celestial Elementalist is an Elementalist problem and should be balanced as such.

15 Second cooldown from summon and can’t have multiple out.

Kodama.6453:

The op isn’t talking about blast finishers. He is asking if the exploding gyros will count as an explosion for traits like steel packed powder.

I really hope they do and if not they will have to change that. It obviously should count as an explosion.

Btw, make pistol 1, rifle 5 and hammer 3 counting as explosion. Each weapon set of engineers should have at least 1 explosion.

Not sure I agree with the premise, but even if A-Net were to do this, the explosion would have to either be probability based or be be placed on Pistol 5 (which should be replaced anyway)

Manuhell.2759:

It isn’t like their survival even depends on us. They just follow the scrapper and do whatever the AI says them to do.
And since there are things called “kits” that don’t even suffer from this issue, either those gyro will do something real good while they’re alive (and enough to compensate for the downtime) or we can just use kits instead. Since those are effective all the time. And we don’t even have to worry about them being killed.

The idea of being ‘rewarded’ for keeping them around was more a throwaway than anything else.

The important thing is that they unload the bulk of their usability within a short period. Balancing them to last longer is a nightmare waiting to happen.

Kaizoku.1298:

Nah, reveal just has to be a toolbelt skill

I disagree. Thieves are barely a danger to us and Pu Mesmer stealth clearly needs a re-work.

Such an aggressive access to reveal seems unnecessary especially in light of the fact that we already have a trait and a skill that apply it.

Adamantium.3682:

It doesn’t look like it does now, but I think it definitely should. Not a single blast in anything Scrapper related is weird, especially with those fields.

This may be an intentional move on their part. We are getting finishers we had very little access to on hammer, so we may be expected to use our baseline utilities for blasts.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Could one hypothetically equip/stow med kit for perma protection? Which with bulwark and alchemy line would give you basically 99% damage reduction and 20% condi damage reduction? In addition to having perma vigor. And a constant regen of 290+ hps.

If only.

Way back when, this use to actually be the case, but at some point this was fixed.

The idea is mostly unformed and perhaps a bit under-tuned but I think I like it as a Sneak Gyro replacement:

Spotlight Gyro:

Pulse: 1 second blind
Pulse: 1 second reveal
Pulse: 2 stacks of 3 second vulnerability

• Insert more PvE-centrinc effect here. *

Concealing Exhaust:

4 seconds of AoE stealth + Dark Field.

Thoughts?

Function Gyro is great. Just not for PvE.

Sneak Gyro is okay, but is too harsh a counter against thieves (I think a 1 – 2 second reveal would be more fair) and unwanted. Also, we are not thieves, we do not care about stealth nearly that much to waste our Elite on it.

Since we have not yet had the opportunity to play the class, I do not want to assume or presume too much, but there are some issues that I feel must be addressed.

Prime amongst these is the question of the purpose and role of Gyros in Scrapper play.

The biggest issue I have against these is that their design ignores the practicality of their use.

I have seen many suggestions to how they can be preserved for longer, and I find that I disagree with this approach. Gyros should not live longer, they should live shorter more ephemeral lives that allow us to maximize their use. Like Illusions.

The suggestion:

Gyros should ‘run out of fuel’ between 3 – 8 seconds based on functionality.

Their current functionalities should be kept, but compressed to this shorter period of time. I do acknowledge that some balancing may need to happen here to not allow some gyros to be to powerful.

Their recharges should range from 15 – 25 seconds based on functionality.

With this, I think Gyros become thematically consistent (their are utilitary devices, not pets), effective in all game modes, and not too frustrating to play against.

Thoughts?

Manuhell.2759:

Let’s be serious, who can think they’ll even survive for their full duration? Over ten seconds, lol…they’ll end up dead in four or five seconds, at most. Even less in some cases, since they’re supposed to follow the scrapper into the fights.
We all saw what happened after they made turrets susceptible to criticals and conditions. It will just happen again with the gyros.
Guess they will never learn for their past mistakes…

I submit that Gyros SHOULD NOT be designed with the intent of being long lived.

We should be rewarded for keeping gyros out for more than 3 – 5 seconds, but they should be effective in that time period. Anything else makes them much to frustrating to fight against or use.

I think there are real problems with Gyros and the new class mechanic that are not going to be solved by a clunky fuel mechanic.

Our class is complex enough to use with out adding even more to it.

Gyros need Invln, evade, or blocks at least part of the time. Enough to allow them to have an initial effect on the field, but allow some level of counter play.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Shadow of Azrael.1205:

iKeostuKen.2738:

Shadow of Azrael.1205:

iKeostuKen.2738:

If thats true, and it has no healing power with a base of 820 healing at a interval of 3 seconds to allies. Then it seems people are really overeacting :/. Cause this thing + dolyak runes and the superspeed healing, ontop of bunker down would be possibly to much healing going on. And thats not counting regeneration.

Healing turret gives MUCH MORE health (including aoe ) overal so no people are not overreacting and you can slot dolyak and all other stuff with it either if you want.

To yourself, sure. Your doing a burst combo heal over one thats sustained.

No, both burst and heal over a period of time from healing turret is supperior.

Actually no its not. Rabid, healing turret only does 484 heal over 3 seconds. But thats with regenation trait on. Without that it is 390 over 3 seconds if you leave it out. But that can also be destroyed. Medic gyro seems superior if your not jsut bursting your turret.

Trust me, you always want to pick up or detonate your turret as quickly as possible.

I really like this class, or to be more clear: I like this class’s potential.

There are two big issues that first need to be addressed before overall balanced is addressed.

Problem: Class Mechanic – Look, I love the ability to stomp and revive from afar, but this by itself is a bit lacking. Whats worst, it is useless in way too many circumstances.

Solution: – Merge Decisive renown into Functional Gyro and add a heavily PvE-centric trait in its place. Also consider providing aegis instead of might.

Problem: Gyros In Melee – The role Gyros play in melee combat MUST be addressed. I know that some amount of counter play is required, but we need to be able to gain SOME use out of the Gyros before they are inevitably cleaved to death.

Solution: – Block for X secs every Y interval. Unblockable skills as well as dedicated pressure are the counters. These values changed base on Gyro.

Otherwise, I think the class is in a very healthy pre-BWE position. Much better than many other classes so far.

Personally, I think Shadow Refuge should remove the reveal debuff. Kind of odd that it does not.

As for Sneak Gyro you failed to mention that the gyro is always visible and destroying it ends its effect.

Also, Engineers need to give up actual useful Elites to counter two classes.

Goosekilla.2796:

Either the Bulwark or purge would make sense, but the gyro set completely lacks any stunbreak. Looks like they are all instant cast, but that doesn’t help with the movement lock of a stun. Am I wrong?

You are absolutely correct.

I think Purge Gyro is a very good candidate.

Conncept.7638:

If you check the red tracker right now, there is a thread up addressing the return of the thief’s Ricochet, in which a developer states that because of the fewer number of traits in the redesigned specialization system, it was decided that each weapon (and presumably kit) would only have one dedicated trait.

I kind of agree and it makes sense, but at the same time, that doesn’t excuse removal of the playstyle, they could have revamped any number of traits to fulfill a similar manic in-your-face style of sustain and support without being exclusive to the bomb kit, and they didn’t.

They tried to. Soothing Detonations, Heal Resolnator and Bunker Down are supposed to do just that.

Bunker Down ended up finding a different niche and Soothing Detonations/Medical Dispersion Field are bad.

The best bet right now is to replace Soothing Detonations and rejigger Medical Dispersion Field.

Hectorim Sears.1479:

Ive read on metabattle that the current meta build for Engie is the Soldier Rifle one. It utilizes Sigil of Intelligence as a source of burst.

Problem is, you are supposed to time the burst by proccing the sigil before the combo if i get it right, and tbh I have NO idea how to control the sigil to proc when i want it to.

From what I gathered, it seems to proc alot more than its 9-second recharge would make you believe, still it sometimes procs when i enter a kit, sometimes when i come back to rifle… I dont get it. Are all equipped kits and rifle main weapon considered SEPARATE for the purpose of the sigil? So both coming back to the rifle, entering Tool Kit and entering Nade Kit proc the sigil separately and each has 9 sec recharge?

If not, can someone please explain how it works?

There is only one cooldown and it is triggered on enter/exit from a kit. Works exactly like a weapon swap.

Arioso.8519:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Not true at all.

-Reconstruction Field: AoE Protection + Water Field
-Defence Field: AoE Reflect
-Bypass Coating: AoE Superspeed
-Space Capacitor: Damage + AoE Stun + Lightning Field
-Chemical Field: AoE Poison + Poison Field
-Detection Pulse: AoE Reveal

Only the bolded two need serious work.

I wasn’t so much speaking on the usefulness as the “work” and visuals.

Almost all of those toolbelt skills recycle visuals from other skills and have no new animations, so it smells a little bit of Dev Crunch Time.

I will disagree that that the Reconstruction field doesn’t need work. Between that and the actual gyro, they’re already woefully underpowered next to the healing turret. (again…) Note that when Jebro made a build he went right back to the healing turret. It’s got a longer water field than the healing turret, which is nice but you have the same longer water field on the Mortar, and you still get the protection on the healing turret with the trait, so you get just as much if not way more out of the turret on a lower CD.

Turret wins. I wish it didn’t though.

The lightning field and stun are useful as heck though, I’m not saying it isn’t. And the reveal on 20 seconds will shut a lot of things down.

The spec itself will grant engineers the ability to do EVERY field/finisher combo in the game solo with the sole exception of dark fields so it’s pretty powerful.

*Basically, what I’m saying is some of the new toolbelt skills are indeed very useful, but none of them are terribly impressive. *

I suppose that is true if your put their utility aside.

As for the healing gyro, well, that one was doomed from the start. It is almost impossible to introduce a heal skill more effective than healing turret without it being overpowered.

Krysard.1364:

kevvy.5081:

I do agree that it is a bad decision to have such a good offensive weapon locked behind a very defensive trait line.

If you look at the trait info @ Dulfy, what little offensive trait it has are finishing off enemy in range, weakness and might when you get stability. It’s focus is just basically more super speed access and things that synergize with super speed. Rest are entirely defensive.

I really want to use hammer but those trait are just awful to even look at. I won’t even consider replacing any of Firearms/Inventions/Alchemy/Tools. Even Invention with all it’s defensive glory has a nice damage boost with the GM trait.

Hammer isnt a offensive weapon, in fact the damage of the weapon is pretty bad

Yep. I think our melee kits may need to be tweaked somewhat to provide a good DPS option for scrappers.

Arioso.8519:

The function gyro is as much of a new mechanic as the new thief dodges.
That’s neither an argument for or against your point, for what it’s worth. But thieves are having the exact same complaint about their new dodge, that is isn’t a “real” class mechanic.

And technically, we got FIVE new F skills.
They’re from the new utilities, but adding in five more skills is just as much dev work as something like adding one new F to another class, so I wouldn’t call that laziness.

*However, I do think the actual new TB skills themselves are kinda lazy, they’re basically all just a dropped field. The mortar kit alone covers most of the gyro’s F skills. *

The function gryo is also literally an f skill, funnily enough. (Not trying to make a point bringing that up, it’s just an observation)

Not true at all.

-Reconstruction Field: AoE Protection + Water Field
-Defence Field: AoE Reflect
-Bypass Coating: AoE Superspeed
-Space Capacitor: Damage + AoE Stun + Lightning Field
-Chemical Field: AoE Poison + Poison Field
-Detection Pulse: AoE Reveal

Only the bolded two need any work and chemical field is only singled out because Mortar already technically does the same thing.

Chaba.5410:

I was hoping for a fuel bar mechanic to manage gyros like Revenant energy skills. :/

This always seemed unlikely to me because Gyros are utilities.

Hard to build an entire mechanic around something that is purely optional AND competing with Kits (which are practically required).

That said, the function Gyro needs to be made more unique.

Functional Gyro itself needs a shorter cooldown. We should be able to use it once every engagement.

20 seconds would be perfect I think.

wolfyrik.2017:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Chaba.5410:

Hammer good. Traits sexy.

Gyros won’t be used in WvW open field fights. There is no point to them in a hammer train. Kits will remain superior for the melee engi.

I was really hoping for some sort of fuel management system for these ala Revenant.

Kits were ALWAYS going to remain supreme.

That said, if scrapper builds use 1-2 of the bots (and that seems likely) then they have succeeded as utilities.

Also, lightning field/daze on death is amazing. And the toolbelt skills seem mostly pretty useful.

Not that I think this is perfect, but the pre-BWE Scrapper is a VERY good base for further improvement.

Yeah, so long as they’re willing to completely remake the first two minors, it could be pretty darned good. Maybe merge them into one, add a lot more function such as most F interactions, reduce the CD then give us a new second minor. Hammer looks pretty solid as a utility weapon, gives Ranger GS a run for it’s money which is what I was hoping for.

I can see alot of possibilites for the stealth elite, as bizarre as it is.

Those first two traits really do suck the fat one, tho.

Agreed. I think a more PvE focused Minor would do very well to round out the class.

We should create a thread wherein we brainstorm some balanced alternatives.

Chaba.5410:

How are Gyros not supposed to be like Spirit Weapons again?

They are improved spirit weapons/mesmer illusion utilities.

Chaba.5410:

Hammer good. Traits sexy.

Gyros won’t be used in WvW open field fights. There is no point to them in a hammer train. Kits will remain superior for the melee engi.

I was really hoping for some sort of fuel management system for these ala Revenant.

Kits were ALWAYS going to remain supreme.

That said, if scrapper builds use 1-2 of the bots (and that seems likely) then they have succeeded as utilities.

Also, lightning field/daze on death is amazing. And the toolbelt skills seem mostly pretty useful.

Not that I think this is perfect, but the pre-BWE Scrapper is a VERY good base for further improvement.

paladinecho.3024:

I was planning on buying HoT with extra gems, but I’m waiting on ANET to return EIixir Infused Bombs and the Healing power to Attack power conveter. The rest of the stuff they have here, I could care less about. Hammer engineer seems like an engineer that is pretending to be a warrior or guardian. Definitely forsee alot of PVT gear changes with this. As far as right now goes its all or nothing, if they can’t deliver, I’m no longer interested in getting a playing style that doesn’t work. Its as if they were working on a car and took out the coolant container and replaced it with a milk carton with spoiling milk inside.

Unlikely. Ranger and Thief operate in melee range without need for PVT.

Sure they have tools to survive at the range, but it looks like we do to.

As for your complaints in regards to EIB and Clerics(?) I think maybe you are playing the wrong game if such a relatively minor change impacts your gaming experience/enjoyment this much.

Balance patches have almost always ruined entire swaths of builds. This has been the case since GW1.

Chuck Zitto.2367:

Yawn more stealth the game didn’t need. More stability on a class that can already get perma stability with juggernaught. Yay engis will be stupid annoying bunkers in spvp again man I just cant wait sarcasm off.

You know, if you are going to be condescending, it helps to say something actually intelligent.

Basaltface.2786:

Nilix.2170:

Basaltface.2786:

Nilix.2170:

Brace for ICD. Just saying.

dont jynx it..

I’m sorry but I really can’t see this being something allowed to happen without an ICD.
It could be a decent duration for the Super Speed but I don’t think they’ll let this be stackable.

Especially seeing how we have a Lightning Field + TRIPLE LEAP finisher on a single weapon.

…well maybe its just my desire to be wanted in groups and appreciated for once to made me go blind to that.. but yea you might be right. Im just personally sick of “but the ele can stack might better” and “this class can do that better” and the “kick the engi i got another ele” i had so long.

Where is this happening? WvW?

I have had nothing but great experiences as an Engie in sPvP and PvE.

Nemesis.6938:

fix the bugs yes
make pistol shots pierce and skill 1 an explosion as you promissed
make pistol 2 HIT stuff
give engi at least 1 whirl finisher which would massively help with condi builds, with vuln stacking, with condi cleansing

They never promised this.

I would love it, but I am not sure it would be quite balanced.