Guild Wars 2

The Game Slayer.7632:

mango.9267:

At least it’s not as bad as incinerator from stealth.

No, incinerator is fine. Nobody can see your steps while in stealth.

I’m talking about dancing dagger and shadow shot, both of which become highly visible flaming daggers when you use incinerator, making them much easier to dodge.

sminkiottone.6972:

I am confident that these changes will improve the WvW experience for many people that don’t like the brainless karma train.

Except removing white swords only makes karma training easier.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Question: Why does the thief need to add more skill into it’s gameplay?

It is the most noob-unfriendly class in the game, useless in most situations unless the player is very good and giving it “more skill to play” is only going to drive it deeper into the gutter its already in. The profession has enough skill, now give it some DIVERSITY.

Well, it’s never a bad thing to promote skillful play, and 20066 S/D isn’t that difficult to pick up. I think that if feline grace were nerfed to only return endurance on successful evade, it should also be compensated with something like 1 stack of might on successful evade. This way, dodges are used more sparingly, the trait gives you more on evade, and you get some additional sustain because you can now take assassin’s reward over power of inertia.

I agree with Lux. Haven’t played at a level where it’s negatively impacted me yet. Yeah, your opponents might be able to briefly see where you went, but it’ll still be very difficult for them to land an attack on you, provided you keep moving.

At least it’s not as bad as incinerator from stealth.

To be honest, I kinda agree. Feline grace promotes a lot of wasteful dodging (i.e. autoattack 2-3 times —> dodge, CnD --> dodge, FS —> LS --> dodge). This is pretty much a win-win scenario. If they attack, you avoid it. If they don’t attack, you still reposition and cancel animations. There simply isn’t a high enough cost to dodging when using feline grace.

With signet of agility, FS, and IS, it’s very difficult to hit even mediocre S/D teefs with feline grace/vigorous recovery — not only because dodging is spammable but also because the benefits of dodging far outweigh the (now minimal) costs.

sinject.4607:

the d/p nerf was in my opinion far less destructive. it was a bit unnecessary since all you had to do was stand outside the small aoe and attack (something every weapon in the game could do) but apparently that was too hard.

The black powder nerf was probably targeting its use in securing stomps.

If you’re trying to run through stuff quickly without killing, then try 00356 with thrill of the crime, sleight of hand, fleet shadow, vigorous recovery. Use withdraw, centaur runes, SB and S/D. Shadow refuge, shadow step, and your choice for the last utility.

Maximum stealth duration possible and permaswiftness via thrill/withdraw/extra dodges.

Infiltrator’s arrow is the fastest way to get around without a target. Infiltrator’s strike + cancelled return is the fastest way to get around with a target.

Interesting concept; I’m a big fan of invigorating precision for P/P and S/P. I’m surprised you opt for roll for initiative over infiltrator’s signet. Seems like you could engage a lot more often with the signet, and you should have enough sustain that losing roll for initiative isn’t a huge deal.

Crucify.1649:

P.S. All I am really saying is that your title speaks a strong statement that is incredibly false. It is also not the meta because people still play 26600 and prefer it over 20606. I didn’t mean to argue this much but people who read this will be mislead, I just want to defend the people who still play 26600 (I hardly play 26600, I still play 20606 and other non-SA builds but that does not mean it’s better, I play it because it’s more fast paced) so they aren’t discouraged by what other people think of what the “meta” is now for SA thieves.

Well, fundamentally, I think everyone should play whatever build they find most fun, regardless of what other people think. However, I do want to encourage D/D thieves to play 20606 because I’ve found a lot of new D/D thieves who’ve struggled against some of the tankier meta builds and either gave up on D/D or gave up on the thief profession, before they even tried 20606. I think the appeal of 26600 is that it’s very straightforward, but ultimately I think thieves in general shine a lot more with 6 in trickery.

Of course, as with all things I post, this is my personal opinion. You’re free to disagree, and I won’t be upset if anyone still plays 26600 or prefers it to 20606.

jump

/15char

Dear god, 4% crit chance and 155% crit damage. Even with 2.6k attack, you’re going to hit like a wet noodle. I wouldn’t use this build for anything, to be honest.

If you’re unwilling to change your stats, at least fix your traits. Shadow’s embrace will deal with most condition pressure you come across. You don’t need stealth on steal, since D/P gives on demand stealth. And it’s almost a waste to go 6 into trickery without taking sleight of hand.

But yeah, like I said, your stats are far too defensive. You won’t be doing any serious damage.

Crucify.1649:

Nice thought second.

Ohai, Initialose!

Crucify.1649:

For sure, I believe a new player with 20606 against a new player using 26600 will completely dominate them. Although, from my opinion, I still think 26600 is still better than 20606 regardless of the advantages it has over 26600, an experienced player playing 26600 should know how to counter 20606 and what the weaknesses are.

Perhaps I don’t play at the level you’re talking about, but in my experience, 20606 beats 26600 even when experienced players are using those builds. 26600 would only win if the player could land the burst, but 20606 makes that very difficult with its daze, permaswiftness, vigor, and more frequent engages. In my experience, the D/D thief that is able to gap close more often will win because just straight up CnDing in melee range is very risky. That said, 20606 also loses less from missing CnD’s because of the extra initiative.

Of course this is just talking about D/D vs. D/D. I think 20606 does much better against a ton of builds that 26600 struggles with because 26600 offers no boon strip and subpar poison application.

Crucify.1649:

I’ve noticed at least one person in the video already posted defensively about this, and it does not show an accurate honest fight between each “better” player. In my opinion, I would post a video that shows numerous fights against each “better” person to show an unbiased perspective for both players.

Well, the intent isn’t to suggest I’m a better player than the people I dueled, nor is the intent to suggest that I win the majority of the duels (I don’t keep score anyway). I just wanted to showcase some fights against builds that 26600 struggles with, played by enemies who know how to use those builds. I thought about using more footage of those duels, but the video was already 12 minutes long, and some duels (like the ones against Pillowcooke) last 5 – 10 minutes each.

Nephrite.6954:

O.o has the potential to be a hybrid thief lol added 300 condi dmg. It doesn’t seem much but it’s still something:)

Well, the meta build for WvW condi teef is 20606, so yeah. That said, I think hybrid D/D would be pretty underwhelming, so until someone shows me otherwise, I’m probably not going to try that build out.

Hype.8032:

In spvp the lack of customization of stats makes the debate more complicated, but in wvw you can just go more offensive with gear stats to come back up in dmg with that build.

It doesn’t quite work in PvP because CnD damage is nerfed, and revealed is 4s. Plus you only get ~41% crit chance with 0 CS and pack runes. I still play it sometimes because I’m a diehard D/D fan.

Hype.8032:

That being said, d/d is so limited that I can never see myself going back to it unless it gets a large overhaul. S/D and D/P have so much more to offer, I really don’t see the reason to use d/d other than how it doesn’t really matter what you use when farming wvw bads….

I don’t think D/D needs a major overhaul — just a slight buff to the evade/initiative cost of death blossom would put it in a good place. I prefer D/D over S/D because it has more finishing potential with heartseeker and backstab, and I prefer D/D over D/P because of the slightly higher burst from the CnD backstab combo. I agree that S/D and D/P are stronger sets overall, especially when it comes to sustain.

Amonatory.2453:

Once I stepped out of SA, I never want to go back to it. SA for me was just to easy, and I stopped finding it fun. I run full glass in wvw now with all the SPvP builds, makes for much more skillful and entertaining gameplay IMO.

The way I see it, D/D needs at least 4 points in SA for the blind and condi removal. Once you go 4 points in, it seems like a waste not to just go 6 points in because you won’t be getting panic strike or executioner.

Running acro could probably work as well, but that’ll usually mean dodging predictably at the end of a CnD, and condi builds would hurt a ton, since D/D has no built-in condi clear and no built-in blind/blink/reliable evade to avoid condi application.

That said, when I play D/D in PvP, I tend to run 20246 to discourage myself from using too much stealth, but missing the blind certainly hurts.

Jana.6831:

Amonatory.2453:

Once I stepped out of SA, I never want to go back to it. SA for me was just to easy, and I stopped finding it fun. I run full glass in wvw now with all the SPvP builds, makes for much more skillful and entertaining gameplay IMO.

Well, you’re a S/D thief, you have condi removal on your set are also hard to predict due to teleports and the general style of S/D.
To me S/D is the exact opposite of D/D. To me D/D is raw fight – no utilities, just strategy. And one can’t really evade conditions when relying on CnD. If people can make it work – good for them, but there’s also might stacking in that line and I don’t want to miss that.
Edit: And S/D probably wouldn’t work without & in trickery anyway. If you were talking about D/D then sorry and: bring on some videos (I love D/D videos anyway).

I pretty much agree with this. S/D and D/P both have more sustain built into the weapon sets, so going 0 SA is much easier.

swinsk.6410:

I wvw for first time in like a year the other day. Used old 06620 build. I find it now impossible to play thief without trickery… In wvw you also need sa for 1vX. I am trying 00626 with full berserker. Thinking of using rage runes for longer fury up time instead of scholar…

Yeah, I completely agree. Rage is definitely a better choice than scholar because you won’t proc the sixth effect on scholar very often, and you really need the fury. I prefer pack because pack also gives you near perma-swiftness as well. If you can position without swiftness, then rage packs a bit more damage on your crits.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Interesting, always wanted to try that build as a d/d. What’s this like with 40% crit chance?

My thief has all ascended gear with mostly valk stats for added vitality. I don’t really wanna change anything again if I don’t need to.

My alt is hovering around 40% crit chance with consumables. Personally, it bothers me, since I don’t proc fire/air as easily, but in practice, I’m still able to win duels and 1vX just fine. So long as you’re able to maintain ~75% fury up-time from thrill of the crime and pack runes, you should be okay. You could also swap fire for intelligence and guarantee some backstabs if you feel like you don’t crit enough.

Lol can we just stop commenting on this thread? We all know OP is Fastcar or one of his friends. Let’s stop feeding him attention and let this thread die a long-overdue death.

If your frontline runs glassy, then your backline runs tankier. In this meta, most of the damage comes from the zerk frontline and the zerk necros, so eles spec a bit tankier to support. Of course, if you can survive running zerk, then that’s clearly the better option, and it’s the option that a number of GvG guilds opt for.

Sandrox.9524:

That is why I said,this video dosnt say much.thing is,in that build,if another d/d 2/6/6 gets you by surprise,you’ll be dead in most cases,unlike yours.

I agree here, and I’ve acknowledged that case in my previous posts. The only scenario where 26600 might be better than 20606 is if you only expect to land one burst. However, in scenarios where you need sustained damage and in scenarios where you want to contribute utility to your team, 20606 is superior.

Junkpile.7439:

06620 is better. Mug doesn’t crit so it really doesn’t do kitten and sleight of hands only works in pillow fights.

Mug does ~2k damage and ~2k heal, which is very significant. Sleight of hand is one of the best traits thieves have.

06620 is even more limited than 26600 because you lose some sustain without mug, and you’ll lose one of your most reliable poison applications. 06620 will have no chance against bunkers/healbots/boon spammers, and will contribute slightly less to team fights than 26600 and much less than 20606.

Sandrox.9524:

This video dosnt say much tbh,he could downed you pretty much easly if after his backstab do HS followup+infi signet.You could say nuh-uh,but it is not the point,the point is he could have killed you easly.The good thing about your build is the boonrip,but other than fighting PU mesmers and cele elems,I dont see how does this build do better.One thing for sure tho,more sustain+larger inti is always welcome.

Well, in every duel, someone could kill me. If they don’t, it’s usually because either I’m playing better or my build is stronger. In this case, the reason he didn’t kill me is because my build was stronger. The extra initiative, boon strip, daze, vigor, lower cd mug, and more frequent gap closing all contribute to why 20606 D/D has the advantage over 26600 D/D.

Loki, there’s a lot in your post, so I’ll try to break it down bit by bit.

Loki.8793:

What are your thoughts on the sPvP panic strike build in WvW? Is there a reason why it isn’t used? I’ve honestly never found shadow arts to be that necessary, even when I do WvW. It’s useful for condi removal, but the regeneration you get and blind on stealth really aren’t as useful as they seem. Mug and withdraw are more than enough to survive long fights, I’ve found.

I made a video of 60206 in WvW, but I was playing P/P: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c2XBKKmDrQ

As for D/D, I feel the blind on stealth is absolutely crucial, especially against melee classes and other thieves. If you don’t blind on your CnD, the enemy thief can get a free CnD off of you, and that puts them at a huge advantage. You’re right that rejuvenation isn’t that important, but it does help against condi builds and in 1vX scenarios.

Loki.8793:

Granted, the panic strike build is designed for d/p more than d/d, but I see no reason why d/d couldn’t use it as well. On paper, I feel like panic strike is stronger than the build you listed.

60206 D/D would be stronger if you could sustain. The problem is that without a good group supporting you, you just won’t stay up that long, and it’ll be quite difficult to fight 1vX. It’ll also struggle in 1v1 against some builds like medi guards and D/D eles. The reason it works so well for D/P is because D/P can sustain without CnD’s, given its abundant blinds and easy stealth.

That said, I’m not the best player, so if a more skilled player were able to pull 60206 D/D off consistently, then it’d be great for teamplay.

Loki.8793:

With your build, you get a blind on stealth, some health regeneration in stealth, longer stealth duration, and a small amount of might while in stealth. In other words, a lot of stealth benefits, which forces you retreat to stealth to accomplish anything in most situations.

This is unfortunately true, and I think that’s why shadow arts is frowned upon. However, I find that D/D struggles to sustain without at least 4 points in shadow arts for the blind. And I figure if I go 4 points in, I might as well go 6 points in, since I can’t take panic strike or executioner.

To compare, S/D has a reliable evade on 3 and a blink/immob/condi clear on 2. Landing S/D 2 confirms your steal, which is incredibly useful when you need to mug for sustain, and the return on S/D 2 lets you kite a lot of melee classes. In addition, S/D 3 can negate a lot of stealth openers. And D/P has on demand stealth, AoE smoke, a very spammable blind on D/P 3, and a gap closer on D/P 3 (meaning you can opt for blinding powder over infiltrator signet).

D/D has none of these options. For a melee weapon, D/D has terrible sustain built into the weapon set, almost forcing you to trait into either shadow arts or acrobatics.

Loki.8793:

With panic strike, you get…

Best of all, none of these benefits require you to be in stealth, meaning missing your CnDs does not automatically make you lose, and you can be super threatening with a shortbow.

Missing CnD’s will hurt, no matter which build you run. The problem is that if you intend to sustain on this, you’ll probably spend the majority of the fight in SB, and then swap to D/D to finish. If that’s the playstyle you envision with 60206, then there’s no point in using D/D. You might as well just play D/P for the easier stealth and greater utility, since you’ll mostly be using SB anyway.

T raw.4658:

20606 has been around for a LONG time. It sucks people are starting to talk about it b/c only a select few knew about it originally.

Yeah 20606 has been around for a while, but usually for S/D. Very few D/D thieves were running the build because they were shoehorned into the old Yishis mindset. 20606 is simply better for D/D as well.

Sandrox.9524:

Im not sure you are right.Yes you can kill with 2/0/6/0/6 but 2/6/6/0/0 you get a hell lot more dmg,and not for using hidden killer,for using executioner.

The only scenario where 26600 would be better is if you only expect to land one burst. As I’ve said, 20606 has better sustain damage because you strip protection, apply more poison, gap close more often, and proc fire/air more easily. This is readily evident in the fact that 26600 won’t beat regen rangers, d/d eles, etc. of equal skill, whereas 20606 has a chance.

Sandrox.9524:

if so happens you get yourself in a mirror fight against another D/D thief playing 2/6/6 you will see why it is better imo.Think about the dmg HS can do with executioner or final backstab.

By your request, here’s a short video of my alt dueling my guildie, both using D/D: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAYemuDmRLg

My alt is geared in exotic weapons/armor and yellow/green trinkets. My guildie is wearing full ascended. The first duel is my 20606 vs. his 26600. The second duel we’re both running 20606.

As you can see, 20606 has the advantage in a mirror D/D fight because of the daze, shorter cd steal (shorter cd mug), vigor, and easier fire/air proc’s. Even though I’m at a huge gear disadvantage, my build makes the fight much easier.

Carpboy.7145:

I’ve been using 20606 dp for awhile now in WvW. There is not a class or build too difficult to take down. Hell ive even won a 1v7v7. The sheer amount of utility you have is unbelievable. Being able to interrupt resses mid stomp with steal has win an in umerable amount of 1v2s/3s, and being able to interrupt an eles ether renewal through armor of earth has also won me multiple 1v1s. Its an amazing build, and for anyone curious i definitely suggest trying it. Never tried d/d before, you just can’t do anything compared to dp :/ dual wielding daggers looks so bad as tho so props to those who pull i off.

My gear setup is also slightly different from yours. I opt for less health and crit chance in favor of more ferocity and toughness.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaFmgmQ4u2qZeH+bZtCA-TlCFABA8AAuSJISK/eU9HBOBARcIAqZ/hM0Bkm2gFOCAkCochRA-w

I’ve tried 20606 D/P, but find that I just don’t need the shadow arts. I’d opt for 26006 or 60206 to contribute more burst to my team. 20606 on D/P just doesn’t hit very hard, especially against bunkers.

alchemyst.2165:

You know, you could run both and be 26006.

That’s true, but I’d only run 26006 if I had very skilled bunkers supporting me. 26006 on D/D is extremely painful because you pretty much have to be in melee range, and having no blind on stealth means your enemy is free to aoe around himself, even if you land your CnD. It’s also very difficult to solo roam on 26006 D/D. That said, I have been trying 40406 recently with Improvisation or Dagger Training, which I also like.

AikijinX.6258:

Elitist.8701:

Hahaha nice man. Aikijinx got rekt.

I didn’t get “Rekt”

It’s funny because I remember this fight, and i remember the conditions i was playing under. Which i wont mention, but good fight anyway Mango.

Hey, good fight. I didn’t post this video to chest-thump or anything. You happened to be the only S/D thief I dueled using this set up recently, and I wanted to showcase a fight against an S/D thief.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmTybvMeAU4

Build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoYFmgmQ4u2qZeH+bZtCA-TVTDwAUVSc4BAk4EA8U52LVbwcIAApHg3+DAMBpQJokjAQM1EirJgUAlLMC-w

The video features some outnumbered roaming footage and duels against better players. I’m posting it here primarily to urge players to adopt 20606 as the new meta for D/D. I see a ton of D/D videos featuring the same old 26600, and I think these videos hurt new players trying to learn thief because 26600 is incredibly limited. For D/D, I believe 20606 is better than 26600 in almost every scenario.

No critical strikes?

In the current WvW meta, it’s a complete myth to think thieves need critical strikes. All thieves get a ton of damage from fire/air proc’s, and thrill of the crime/pack runes/WvW gear allow you to maintain very high crit chance without critical strikes. It’s true that your backstabs will hit lower, but your sustained damage is higher because trickery allows you to engage more often, strip protection, and apply more poison. In addition, the higher general crit chance allows you to proc fire/air more often, without relying on Hidden Killer.

What’s more, there are some builds that 26600 just cannot beat, given equal skill: D/D eles, celestial engi’s, condi warriors, regen rangers, medi guards, trickery thieves, and more. This is because 26600 doesn’t offer any boon strip, applies subpar poison duration, and simply can’t engage as often, due to the 35 second steal. And missing CnD’s hurts a lot more on 26600 due to having less initiative.

In teamplay, it’s immediately obvious why trickery heavy thieves contribute more than non-trickery heavy thieves. The only scenario in which 26600 might be better than 20606 is if you expect only to be able to land one burst before peeling.

Better than D/P and S/D?

Probably not. D/D still relies on landing CnD’s, and this ultimately limits the build. D/P and S/D don’t need shadow arts to survive and can thus trait into more damage. I think 20606 D/D has similar burst to 20606 S/D, less sustain/utility, but more finishing potential due to heartseeker and backstab. This build offers more burst and sustained damage than 26600 D/P builds, but less damage and utility than 26006 or 60206 D/P builds.

This thread is beyond stupid. It’s pretty clear OP is either the warrior himself or a close friend of his.

And speaking of the warrior, that is some of the worst gameplay I’ve ever seen. A condi bunker BM’ing random pugs while skill clicking everything…

In GvG, you build as glassy as you can without dying. Ideally, you’ll be full zerk or close to full zerk. If you’re still getting used to the class, then I recommend zerk armor/cele trinkets for ele, and a mix of zerk/valk/knight for mesmer.

Guildies and I did a quick DPS test. No might stacking or anything.

Lich power necro did around 35k-40k in that timeframe. S/D lightning rod ele (no elite) did 65-70k.

I don’t think any other class compares to what an ele can do in that same time frame.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Prysin.8542:

Any Ele burst build comes out on top AFAIK.
Followed by Ranger with LB and Sword Axe.
Rapid Fire does 20k+ damage in 1.5 seconds, followed by 2x 4-9k bursts from axe all while sword and pet AA does 2-5k Autos every 0.5 seconds….

Thief burst is, unfortunately, limited by revealed timer.

I was also thinking ranger. Pre fight frost spirit, RaO-Quick. zeph.-SotW-Jaguar f2-Barrage-RF-path of scars.

Which rotation of Ele comes higher than this?

Pre-cast dragon tooth, triple phoenix, lightning flash, double lightning combo happens almost instantly and can hit 20-30k.

Assuming you run combined training and signet of malice, s/p with a mix of pistol whip and autoattacks does more damage while stacking. I’m told this is because you’ll be over 90% health more often with s/p than with d/d, so you’ll trigger the scholar rune effect more often, in addition to the extra 5% modifier from combined training. This is the supposedly the optimal dps for a stacking encounter where you can’t get behind the boss. If you’re running a suboptimal spec (dagger training, no scholar runes, no signet of malice, etc.), then d/d does more damage.

I don’t PvE very seriously, but this is just what I’m told by a someone who does.

Jana.6831:

Makes no sense actually as Incinerator has got nothing to do with shadow shot – my bet would be it’s a bug as right now it would mean that quip wouldn’t have any animation at all if equipped offhand – and I should really find an opponent with an incinerator to test it.

Edit: Was that someone from another server?
Edit²: Or find an opponent to test it on – easier said than done..

To my knowledge, it’s always worked like this.

Here’s a potato quality video my friend posted in February 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk4f_7mGZLo&t=4m7s

You can see the shadow shot flying as an incinerator, despite the opponent’s stealth.

Jana.6831:

mango.9267:

For example, dancing dagger and shadow shot are pretty hard to see in group fights, but with incinerator, you’re throwing a flaming dagger that basically screams “dodge me”.

Not with Incinerator main hand. Shadow shot depends on the pistol alone.

Here’s a short video showing shadow shot with an incinerator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMZRDgk7ciw

Your opponents see the flying flaming dagger from stealth as well, making it easier to dodge. It’s especially painful because a lot of d/p teefs use d/p 3 to gap close, so dodging shadow shot denies them an easy backstab.

Frankly, I’d sell it. I’m pretty picky, and incinerator makes some attacks way too easy to dodge. For example, dancing dagger and shadow shot are pretty hard to see in group fights, but with incinerator, you’re throwing a flaming dagger that basically screams “dodge me”.

First, yes, 26006 is viable on its own, but requires some familiarity with the set and extra care around condi builds.

That said, if you’re dying a lot on 26006, then going 26204 won’t help you survive much longer. You only get slightly more condi clear, but that still usually depends on landing your CnD’s.

Frankly, a significant chunk of your sustain comes from mug and sleight of hand, so foregoing sleight of hand means you’ll have a longer cd on mug and lose your insta-cast daze.

I agree that 24206 or 24026 are better options, but if you don’t see any reason to go 4 into critical strikes, then you might as well use 20606, 20066, or 20246. Honestly, with strength runes, power of inertia, and possibly might-on-dodge food (assuming you also play WvW), a 20066 build can dish out comparable dps to a 26006 build.

Shooka.9712:

2. I’m currently gearing up my shatter mesmer for wvw roaming,
and i need tips on sigils/runes choice
After messing around in HotM ive come up with :
- Traveler runes
- GS:Fire,Battle + S/T:Fire,Force
Perhaps bloodlust sigil tho ive never actually used them before

If you’re playing shatter, having an energy sigil somewhere is generally a good idea. I have energy on both swaps, but that’s just personal preference. I know having both fire and air on greatsword is popular because of how easy it is to proc both of those sigils using the autoattack. For single target dps, air hits harder than fire and has a lower cd.

Ohoni.6057:

Your post is misleading if you think this wouldn’t destroy condition balance in WvW/PvP. Conditions are in a good spot in PvP and absolutely dominant in small-scale WvW. A single small buff could push them over the top — never mind the numerous buffs you’re proposing here.

Do – not – care.

A lot of people do care, since many people play more than one game mode. And Anet certainly cares because they tend to balance around PvP, as opposed to WvW/PvE.

I reiterate that these ideas are good for PvE only, and if implemented, should remain PvE only. It would completely unbalance PvP/WvW.

Eh, it’s a good excuse to not worry about PPT this week and just look for fights. I’m having fun because FA and CD both have a ton of roamers and fights guilds, as opposed to DB.

Now if this were to be a regular occurrence, it could become problematic…

Your post is misleading if you think this wouldn’t destroy condition balance in WvW/PvP. Conditions are in a good spot in PvP and absolutely dominant in small-scale WvW. A single small buff could push them over the top — never mind the numerous buffs you’re proposing here.

I agree that conditions need a buff in PvE, but for the sake of PvP/WvW, these buffs should remain PvE only.

Nothing is being abused here. The 6th effect doesn’t deal direct damage and therefore doesn’t reveal. This is consistent with caltrops and traps that also don’t do direct damage.

Your argument is normative — you think the 6th effect should do direct damage. However, you probably think that because of how imbalanced P/D condi teefs are in general.

There’s nothing wrong with krait runes and stealth, and I doubt there would be any complaint about a mesmer, ranger, or engi proc’ing the effect while stealthed. The rune only becomes problematic in conjunction with the insane condi pressure and high survivability that P/D condi teef already has. The problem is P/D condi — not krait runes, stealth, or the combination of the two.

Problem is that there are currently four T4 servers, one T3 server, and one T2.5 server. One of the T4 servers will be stuck in the T3 matchup (looking like it’ll be NSP this reset), and T3 will always be unbalanced by DB. In my opinion, IoJ is in the worst position because it’s the only T3 server, meaning it’ll always be in the T3 matchup with the T2.5 DB.

Chapell.1346:

Nice, who says gunslinger is not viable in Pvp. you prove them wrong OP.

Viable is probably stretching it, but P/P is definitely not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. I think it’s pretty decent as a swap weapon in duels. A slight buff to its sustain would do wonders for the set though.

I highly, highly, highly recommend 20606 for WvW. To be honest, using D/P, you don’t really need the SA, so 26006 would be more ideal. However, if you’re not comfortable without SA, aim for 20606.

Despite what some posters have said, there are some specs you simply won’t be able to kill using 26600, especially on D/P. I’m talking about competent d/d ele’s, shout guards, condi warriors, regen rangers, etc. You really need the extra poison and boon strip from heavy trickery investments to take them down.

You only need ~40-50% crit chance; pack runes/thrill of the crime and fire/air sigils take care of the rest.

Black Box.9312:

Full condi guardian. Er, I mean- Anet is advocating for it, so it must be a real thing, right?

Carrion guards are actually a legitimate threat. The burns they dish out are insane, on top of the solid power damage they have.

NoEqual.1427:

Good to see some PP in action. I am myself currently playing around with multiple PP power builds to find something that works.

It just annoys me how it’s a hybrid build that doesn’t quite know if its condi based or power based.

My personal take is that P/P is definitely power. With the exception of vital shot and sneak attack, there is no way to apply damaging conditions using any of the P/P skills themselves. However, in order to get the most out of P/P’s power set, you pretty much have to go full glass; I run 12k health and 2k armor in these clips.

I think the requirement to go full glass to make the most of the power side of it is why people opt for a hybrid (and therefore suboptimal) setup on P/P.

Faeyd.5094:

The warrior in the middle of the video must have thought you were dead 5 times. He didn’t budge off full health while you went through about 4 health bars Nice play.

That’s generally how it goes with tankier targets. I’m often just dancing around until I find an opportunity to burst, and then it’s all in. That build in particular is fairly unique; it’s a power build with high might stacks, making the conditions tick fairly high as well. If you’re interested in the warrior’s gameplay, Raiden made a video of that build here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKm1x7jD3ro

Jana.6831:

I have the urge to send you some 20 slot bags!
Anyway: Nice fights and especially nice combos which makes P/P rather dangerous.

Haha, thanks. I recently got 20 slot bags, but my inventory still always manages to be full

Had some extra P/P clips, and because I’m not sure I’ll make another P/P video, I decided to compile a short video of duels against some of the better opponents I’ve fought.

Mostly, I’ve been experimenting with various setups, which I annotated in each clip. Comments, criticisms, suggestions are all welcome.

Fay.2357:

Are you kidding me? Please try and explain how gaining every boon in the game for 10s doesn’t contribute fantastically to the thief role in a team?

Compared to the other steals which have direct team play benefits (long duration fear, daze, chill, whirl, area control, water field), consume plasma does relatively little for your team and does a lot more for you yourself.

Fay.2357:

It allows the thief to hit harder, move faster, and have more defense while performing their main role of chasing down and eliminating a target.

It really doesn’t change that much offensively. It grants 1 stack of might, and thieves already maintain fairly good fury and swiftness up-time. Consume plasma is primarily used for the aegis, protection, and stability. Yes, this might let the thief play more aggressively briefly, but it’s still mostly used defensively.

This is getting a bit off track, so I won’t belabor the point.

Fay.2357:

Steal (Instant cast, 20s cd, 900 range)

1. Shadowstep to target
2. Gain 2 initiative
3. 10s poison
4. AOE 10s Fury, Might, Swiftness
5. AOE 10s Vigor
6. Steal 2 boons prioritizing stability, share boons to allies
7. 1s Daze
8. 10 additional seconds of every boon in the game.

Yes, this is obviously balanced and far.

You forgot ~2k heal and ~2k damage. Of course, most of these effects only apply when the steal lands. That’s beside the point though. With the exception of the stolen ability, steal does the same thing to every class. Your gripe seems to be against steal in general.

Consume plasma is incredibly strong in 1v1 scenarios against mesmers, but the game isn’t balanced around 1v1’s. That particular stolen ability doesn’t offer much in the way of team play and is usually used as a defensive maneuver.

Obsidian Sanctum is what you’re looking for. Problem is that it’s empty for most of the day. Your best bet is to just party some enemy players and ask if they want to duel. There are impromptu duels happening all the time, especially in NA T3/T4.

Hamster.4861:

Make a friend in DOLO, and they’ll help you with your mlg skills if you can tolerate them.

Br0sef, we’re the most tolerable bunch!

Clownmug.8357:

mango.9267:

Then there’s the bigger problem of comparing skills in a vacuum, which should never be done.

Cast Time: 0.25 sec vs 1.75 sec – Shadow Refuge wins
Cooldown: 60 sec vs 90 sec – Shadow Refuge wins
Stealth: 10-15 sec vs 5-6 sec – Inconclusive (Shadow Refuge requires standing in the circle for 4 sec)
Healing: 1,775 (0.9) vs 0 – Shadow Refuge wins
Number of Targets: 5 vs 10 – Inconclusive (Unlimited allies for Shadow Refuge if they walk into it, but they’re unaffected by pulses)
Radius: 240 vs 1200 – Mass Invisibility wins

Overall it seems like Shadow Refuge wins but I’m just comparing numbers, is that still a taboo?

If it’s not taboo, it should be. Just because you’re tossing in numbers doesn’t change the fact that you’re still comparing two skills in a vacuum. Balance discussions should center around the build or the profession as a whole.

It’s meaningless to compare refuge to mass invis without a holistic comparison of certain thief builds vs. certain mesmer builds. It makes even less sense to compare refuge and mass invis because, stealth aside, their mechanics aren’t similar.