Guild Wars 2

Jeknar.6184:

Chaba.5410:

Servers in T3-4 right now are not fighting to their full potential. The competitive matches are merely an illusion and do not predict actual tournament performance.

So you are telling us that 5 servers have not fought their fullest for 8 weeks straight?

Honestly, that’s pretty accurate. It’s hard to gauge SBI and DB because they’ve gained and lost guilds, had people quit, had some come back, etc. CD always claims they’re on vacation and not really PPTing, throwing out some arbitrary percentage like 75%. And we know YB’s tryhard PPT siegehump mode is very different from YB in offseason mode. DR’s been steadily getting bandwagoned, so it’s hard to say where they place in these 5 servers now.

In the past 3 weeks, I believe DB, YB, and SBI have been in a tankfest. I think CD’s manning up, but whether or not they have enough Glicko to roll Gold remains to be seen.

Edit: so it turns out you can’t put a+s+s together (as in a+s+s+e+s+s), or the entire word becomes “kitten”. GG overfiltering

Deli.1302:

Chris.3290:

I love people who are self-appointed experts on our off-hours coverage.

Don’t you make a living out of doing the exact same thing about other servers?

shrekt m8

Amurond.4590:

mango.9267:

And almost all of you have a comparable population with FA (DR might even have more people in NA).

Yes they have more people than Mag. No, none of the T3 servers have comparable populations to FA. FA are being creamed by an extremely stacked oceanic SoS, however I’m willing to bet if they were to drop to T3 for a match against CD/DB they would lead PPT comfortably across most if not all timezones.

FA still has hardly any OCX/SEA. They have more in NA than most T3 servers (save DR), but not that much more in EU. The T3 servers would still lose by a decent margin, but it wouldn’t be a roflstomp, and most of the T3 servers would probably be able to hold their own.

Granted, FA’s population might be artificially low from the stale matchup and Mag’s recent implosion. But judging by what I’ve seen this week and the previous couple of weeks, the gap between FA and the T3 isn’t as large as you make it out to be.

cyyrix.6105:

My point is that “Condi output” is vague. Do you mean condi application? Condi uptime? Condi variety? Condi damage? Condi burst? All these make sense. “Condi output” does not.

Truth is it doesn’t really matter what you envision as “condi output” because you are wrong anyways. Buffed IE staff beats buffed sc/x on almost all of those, except maybe sc/t, but that greatly depends on enemy movement and skill use.

Both variety and damage. And staff certainly pales in comparison to scepter/torch or scepter/pistol in variety and damage. Staff reliably offers vuln, bleed, and/or burn. Scepter/x offers torment, confusion, bleed, and burn, without the RNG element. Scepter/x conditions also do more damage if allowed to tick the full duration, especially the bleeds from the duelists and the torment from the block.

cyyrix.6105:

Who cares about “condi output”, whatever that even means? The IE buff increases the overall condi damage of staff more than the scepter buff does scepter/x. By a lot. IE also beats scepter AA in condi cover. It also has higher burst potential from burning.

Really, I don’t think overall condi output is such a tough concept to grasp.

I address it because I think that’s what people are missing when they paint the opposition as inconsistent for opposing scepter AA buff but approving of the IE fix.

And again, I agree that staff AA is better than scepter AA. However, staff AA isn’t better than the entire scepter/x set at outputting condi’s.

cyyrix.6105:

Stop framing everything around PU. PU PU PU PU PU. You are a broken record at this point. We get it. You don’t want PU builds buffed. It is important to understand that the scepter buff can help non PU builds. It might even make the weapon viable on some hybrid or (dare I say) power builds, much like the staff is. Also, a huge condi buff like IE has a good chance of making its way into PU variants.

Always consider how a buff will affect various post-patch builds, not just builds that are currently popular.

I never framed my argument around PU. I use PU as an example of the type of build this buff benefits, and the type of build that didn’t need to be buffed.

Yes, this could help other builds. Exclusively power builds? Probably only marginally. However, I think the way this helps is completely misguided, as it promotes little active play, no team synergy, and only strengthens the condi meta. I would have loved it if Anet buffed the scepter by implementing any one of the many better ideas on these forums. Instead, we get a lazy torment on AA design.

But yes, my worries are mitigated slightly by the fact that PU and DD are nerfed. However, the design philosophy behind just tacking on torment to AA still does little to bring mesmers out of the pigeonholed slump it’s in.

Windwalker.7421:

mango.9267:

More to the point, you’re not comparing one skill to another. That is, you’re not comparing scepter AA to staff AA in a vacuum. Rather, you’re comparing the entire condi output of scepter/x to the entire condi output of staff.

I don’t think anyone here is failing to realize this obvious fact.

Quite the contrary, I think many people are overlooking this obvious fact. There are tons of replies in this thread and others along the lines of “why are you opposing the scepter AA buff when the IE fix will make staff clones even better at applying condi’s? hurrdurr Helseth fanboy”

Windwalker.7421:

Isn’t that the point of a Condie focused weapon to spit out Condies? Is there any other Condie-focused weapon that doesn’t do this? The #2 skill is off-block and thus highly situational. The #3 skill is very slow and highly telegraphed and applies a rather weak and short-duration Condition that smart players often simply wait out without the Mesmer being able to punish them for doing so. (Because the Scepter AA & Clones are so weak.)

The Scepter is currently an atrocious weapon in ANY regard.

This is where I disagree. I think in its current state, scepter is already a decent condition weapon, and scepter/x is a strong condition set. Scepter 2 isn’t so unreliable if you watch for opponents’ telegraphed skills or aoe’s. And at worst it provides a decent duration block or blind. Often, it forces a dodge if your opponent is careless about hitting it. Scepter 3 is great for making opponents waste dodges, and the confusion is completely non-negligible. At worst, the opponent doesn’t attack, relieving pressure from you and allowing you to wait on your cd’s. At best, the opponent takes decent confusion damage.

When coupled with torch or pistol offhand, I think the entire set boasts strong condi output.

Windwalker.7421:

mango.9267:

Lastly, many PU builds take both staff and scepter/x. Before, replacing a staff clone with a scepter clone meant a significant DPS loss. Not so post-patch.

Yes, which is exactly one major reason why Scepter is such a terrible Condition-focused weapon! People were turning OFF their AA, and used their dodge-rolls sparingly, only to avoid actually using their Scepter for anything but the occasional successful use of #2 and #3! They pretty much only swap to Scepter for The Prestige. That you consider this to be the way a weapon should be designed/played is -quite frankly- rather obtuse.

Your experience with scepter differs from mine. Scepter 2 and 3 aren’t as unreliable or worthless as you make them out to be and scepter/x offers far more than the prestige. Scepter itself is a decent defensive weapon with decent condi output, and scepter/x boasts stealth, burn, confusion, or bleeds and stun.

The tradeoff between gaining these defensive (or in the case of the duelist, offensive) options was weaker clones. I thought this was a fair trade and at least promoted some strategy when deciding how to use dodges or when to swap weapons. Now, I’m afraid little is lost when swapping to scepter/x.

Windwalker.7421:

Look, there are sizable nerfs to PU incoming that will force tougher build-choices on players. PU is getting pigeonholed even more into a 1v1 role, but yes it will be at least as strong in that role as now, and maybe even a tad stronger. However, it will not be as passive as before, not nearly as AoE capable from Clone Deaths, and it will have significantly less defense to boot, which gives it a much more prominent -and needed- “Achilles Heel.”

So the Scepter changes along with PU nerfs are a big plus to build diversity for Mesmers.

I agree that the scepter buff is mitigated by the PU and DD nerfs. I think it’ll be just as passive, minus the occasional AA’s, but that’s the nature of playing a build like PU condi. Whether or not this will really promote build diversity remains to be seen, but I hope you’re right.

MailMail.6534:

Seriously, eff our Mesmer community for QQing SO much about the scepter buff. Instead of accepting the buff as is, we complained so much that they didn’t just nerf PU but ALL condition builds.

Say goodbye to all condition builds sans MtD, and even that is questionably effective.

The only saving grace is now people won’t complain about PU being OP. This will shift the community into the lockdown builds.

Oh quit being so hyperbolic. The sky isn’t falling. The mesmer community (well, half of it) opposed the scepter buff because the buff doesn’t promote active gameplay, team synergy, or overall game health. And the nerfs to PU and DD won’t cripple condi builds at all. Those same builds will still be pretty strong.

Good vid. I’d be afraid to come across you after the iLeap fix.

Also, I see you chose to stick with the Butternut Squash over Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew.

I think people are exaggerating the PU nerf. It’s really not that bad. You don’t get aegis as often, but you still maintain very high regen/protection up-time. And the occasional swiftness boosts mesmer mobility slightly.

The DD nerf will probably be worse, but I still think people are exaggerating. Not many will waste dodges/blocks/invulns on clone deaths when there are more important attacks to avoid. It’ll make fighting thieves harder (with their blind on stealth), but it won’t change much against other classes.

To address those of you in this thread who think people are inconsistent about disliking scepter AA but liking staff IE:

First, the IE fix buffs a ton of builds, whereas the scepter AA buff benefits almost exclusively condi builds which didn’t need to be buffed.

More to the point, you’re not comparing one skill to another. That is, you’re not comparing scepter AA to staff AA in a vacuum. Rather, you’re comparing the entire condi output of scepter/x to the entire condi output of staff.

Even with IE, the condi output from staff depends (almost exclusively) on AA/clones. Scepter/x, on the other hand, will spit out condi’s on almost every weapon skill. With the scepter AA buff, the overall condi output of scepter/x will just be ridiculous, increasing the problem with mindless PU condi builds.

Lastly, many PU builds take both staff and scepter/x. Before, replacing a staff clone with a scepter clone meant a significant DPS loss. Not so post-patch.

(I feel like a broken record at this point)

Amurond.4590:

Feel free to try and take IoJ up there. Quite frankly I think you’d have to be insane to want to be the 6th server in Gold even for 4 weeks. I don’t think you really understand how big the gap is. You may as well go PVE for a month.

I wish IoJ had a shot at it. And the gap isn’t really as big as you think it is. The T3 servers definitely have more people than Mag at this point. And almost all of you have a comparable population with FA (DR might even have more people in NA).

It’s only from SoS onwards that the gap really widens, and that’s mostly during offhours. Frankly, with SoS hemorrhaging OCX guilds, CD would probably hold its own just fine in T2.

Afya.5842:

It is discouraging to the community no matter how short it is. Remember even casual pvers who never wvw will go there just for the skin and AP. What would you feel if you get crushed everytime you go to wvw? Now we have megaserver, the only thing that matter for world choice is wvw. Some people may try to go to a “winning” server.

DB tried going to gold once, three largest wvw guilds left after the tournament. I wouldn’t say that’s 100% the cause but it definitely contribute to the transfer.

Thing is, many servers have lost for more than 4 weeks in a row before, many of them in the current T3. And most of them are doing fine now. The gap isn’t so big between T3 and the (hemorrhaging) T2 that it’d be absolute domination, contrary what Mag may have you think.

Yeah, the PvE AP hunters will probably be disappointed, but I was under the impression the hardcore WvW crowd didn’t cater to them anyway.

What I don’t understand is why the T3 servers are tanking. Are the dumb and meaningless rewards really worth this farcical tankfest?

I’d understand tanking for the previous two seasons. 7-9 weeks of getting farmed is usually bad for servers.

However, this tournament is only 4 weeks long. We’ve had stale matchups for far longer than 4 weeks. And this is 4 weeks where the current T3 servers would get a shot at fighting servers they haven’t seen in a loooong time (if ever), without the pressure of having to worry about the PPT game. If I were a diehard WvW’er on a T3 server, I’d absolutely make the push for Gold, considering how short this tournament is.

Dahkeus.8243:

roamzero.9486:

oxtred.7658:

a d/P power doesn’t have 20k health and a ton of toughness.

Lol, it’s pretty easy to make a d/p Thief with 3k armor, 2.5k power, and almost 20k HP (assuming full guard leech buffs/blood lust). D/p is just as faceroll as P/d.

Seriously? Who would ever play a tanky D/P…

And there’s a reason that someone stacking pure condition damage traits will be tankier than someone stacking full power traits:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Berserker%27s_Amulet
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Rabid_Amulet

Actually, 3k armor d/p builds were popular for a while in WvW. Decent hp, high armor, 2k+ attack. Very low crit chance, but relied on Hidden Killer for the dps.

To respond to OP’s thread: the trait isn’t worth it. In WvW, SA is better than acro. Cloaked in shadow will deal with both CC’s against your sneak attacks and interrupts on your stomps.

Nazer.7301:

Wow DE porting a clone to target, yes plz. Can you imagine the single target distance clone spam for world bosses/dungeons. Shatter more viable for pve, so many options with a change like that. Where do I sign up.

One of the best ways to mitigate backstabs from thieves is to dodge and summon a clone where you just were. Backstab hits the clone, and the thief is now revealed.

Deceptive evasion is better off as it is, by summoning a clone at your dodge position.

Levetty.1279:

mango.9267:

…Not every mesmer build is getting nerfed. These nerfs don’t affect phantasm or shatter builds at all. If anything, those builds are getting buffed.

And do mesmers even run clone death traits in PvE?

2 bug fixes aren’t a buff they are bug fixes. Bug fixes that anet has shown can easily fail to actually get right.

Its obvious you don’t play Mesmer and you got your whine granted and the one viable build got nerfed while all the other under preforming builds got nothing so why are you still here? Leave us alone till next year when the Mesmer gets a single buff and begin your campaign to get us nerfed again.

I care about the health of the game and the overall balance of professions more than I do about my specific build. If you don’t believe I play mesmer, feel free to search my post history. I even posted my build 8 months ago (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/WvW-condi-shatter-roaming-dueling-build/first). The changes that I’m opposing would actually hurt my build, but I think that’s a good thing.

And “only viable build”? Let’s not pretend PU is viable in any game mode except WvW roaming/dueling (and maybe soloQ), where it was far too strong. The high-end PvP shatter specs receive substantial buffs from the mantra changes, greatsword 3 buff, iLeap fix, IE fix, etc.

Lastly, are you going to say the same thing to everyone who agreed with me about scepter AA or PU? That they clearly don’t play mesmer and are just whining?

Navi.7142:

Oh, WOW. Congratulation that every mesmer will receive these nerfs, even if you would never play a PU based build.

Very nice for pve mesmers that their clone on death are now also effected by these changes. WOOOOOOW.

THANKS! Not.

:(

…Not every mesmer build is getting nerfed. These nerfs don’t affect phantasm or shatter builds at all. If anything, those builds are getting buffed.

And do mesmers even run clone death traits in PvE?

ITT: PU mesmers QQing everywhere.

Let’s face it, PU warranted a nerf. But honestly, the nerf to PU wasn’t even that bad. If anything, PU mesmers get a bit of improved mobility from the swiftness. They’ll still maintain fairly high regen and protection up-time.

I like the changes to clone death as well. For most classes, clone death will still proc a ton of condi’s, since I doubt many people will blow major cd’s on clones. It adds a nice, but not crippling counterplay mechanic. However, it does make fighting thieves harder, since they have a ton of access to blinds.

Fay.2357:

vincecontix.1264:

Except PU condition memser is more faceroll than just about everything you listed with about highest survivability of any spec. Something that is easy to play should not become meta even with out pu condition mesmer is still very strong. They can have the torment on auto but should not have pu and the same time. It should be made a trait so mesmer would have to choose.

I’m curious, why are you so worried about torment when many people have shown mathematically that staff clones do significantly higher damage with far greater reliability?

Because scepter/x has better overall condi output than staff. Staff condis come (almost) entirely from clones/AA. On scepter/x, just about every skill can apply some sort of condi, and now the torment on AA pushes its condi output over the top.

That and the fact that many PU builds use both scepter/x and staff. Before, if you swapped a scepter clone for a staff clone, you lost some decent dps. Not so anymore.

The only consensus you’ll find is that Anet will do nothing about it.

However, the best evidence of the fact that it’s an exploit is that Anet has closed every thread in the past on this topic. This thread will be closed soon.

Straegen.2938:

King Amadaeus.8619:

New “for the fights server” will be YB after the ninja xfers are finished, try to keep it on the downlow though. There is a movement to make YB the next Maguuma, while using their siegemonkeys to carry us with PPT.

This would have been an odd pairing but probably highly successful during peak hours. Without a solid OCX/SEA, won’t matter though.

Honestly, Mag and YB’s playstyles complement each other fairly well, and both servers have the same attitude when it comes to popular pugmanders staying up all night to PPT. Combined, they’d be a real threat.

It’s a shame no one can tolerate YB.

Johje Holan.4607:

King Amadaeus.8619:

I think Mag will end up either in T3 or bouncing between it and T4. Don’t be fooled, there are some people still here, but a lot are playing AA and the rest are not in tryhard mode at all.

That’s good to hear. I was worried you all would be too weak for T3 or T4. Shouldda know the “sky is falling” was exaggerated somewhat.

Mag is definitely too weak for T3 in its current state. It’d be competitive with them if the popular pugmanders were tryharding, but Mag in its non-tryhard state now would probably be around T4 level.

Seeing as how this is the third thread on this topic, I went ahead and compiled the votes for users who posted in the other two but haven’t posted here.

Feel free to check my count:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Scepter-AA-buff-is-a-fantastic-idea/first#post4333819
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Scepter-AA-buff-is-a-terrible-idea/page/2#post4332101

Subtracting the people who already posted their replies here, the two threads listed above add:

10 to YES
16 to NO

My own answer is a resounding HELL NO.

Windwalker.7421:

I just really fail to see the issue with this. I agree with someone above you said that what will really make people QQ in their Wheeties is Ill. Elasticity on Staff clones. Now we’re talking not just a single target attack, but applying constant burn + bleed to multiple targets. Burn is far more reliable high power condition damage then Torment, with no real counter play aside from cleansing, which will be pointless.

Even without Ill. Elasticity, I don’t see the Scepter clones outperforming the Staff ones, and with EI I really don’t see a case where I would ever prefer to have more then maybe 1 Scepter Clone up over a Staff clone instead, just to get Torment into the mix.

I’ve addressed this argument the first time you made it. However, to repeat:

Yes, if we’re comparing scepter clones to staff clones, then staff clones are better.

However, we’re not doing that. We’re comparing the total condi output from scepter/x to the total condi output from staff. The only sources of condi on staff are clones/AA and (briefly) chaos storm. Scepter, on the other hand, gives you a potential 5 stacks of torment on low cd, 5 stacks of confusion, and (depending on whether you take pistol or torch) 4-6 bleeds or a burn. By adding torment on scepter AA and torment on scepter clones, we’re pushing the total condi output of scepter/x over the top.

Before, when you replaced staff clones with scepter clones, you saw a decent dps drop. After the patch, when you replace staff clones with scepter clones, the dps loss (if any) will be marginal. Instead, you’ll maintain constant condi pressure from scepter clones, on top of the already strong condi pressure from the rest of the skills on scepter/x.

To repeat, no one is disputing that staff clones are better at outputting condi’s. However, we’re talking about the entire staff set vs. the entire scepter/x set, and the builds that use scepter/x already have strong condi output. Buffing scepter just pushes it over the top.

Note also that many condi builds run both scepter and staff. Those are the last builds that need buffing.

Why make a new thread instead of posting your disagreement in the existing thread? Now we have two threads on the exact same topic on the frontpage.

To respond, I still completely disagree, for reasons addressed in the original thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Scepter-AA-buff-is-a-terrible-idea/first#post4327344

Perhaps by making rewards scale with how long you’ve held the assets you own. The more stuff you own, the better the scaling. Start the rewards off fairly low, but increase them as you hold keeps and towers each tick. Losing them resets the scale back to the start.

Gives incentive to defend and tones down the blatant K-training.

Carighan.6758:

mango.9267:

Even if you’re underestimating the amount of torment, what you’ve described is already very significant. It’s not just about how many stacks or how long they last, but also the ease of application.

“Ease of application” being that you are using the Scepter AA.

Now, ignore for a moment the actual torment stacks, as those are the net result. Think about what else you’re doing. Scepter AA.

This isn’t Necro scepter, which fires quickly and deals a small amount of direct damage. This isn’t Guardian scepter either which at least fires at the same speed independent of distance from target.

This is Mesmer Scepter AA.

I’m sorry, but how is torment on AA a positive thing? It still means I have to Scepter AA, which means I effectively go AFK, apart from those torment stacks. As I do nothing else the enemy might even notice.
The AA is still so bad for all I care they could add Swiftness, Fury and Stability to it and it’d still be rubbish. You’re, adding Torment to it is a terrible idea. But because the issues are so, so, so much deeper.

It’s a nice little gimmick to have some condi damage on it. Total damage will still be significantly lower than Staff AA simply because Scepter’s AA is so bad outside of that torment.

This point has been addressed numerous times above.

1) You can weave AA’s in between other skills.
2) Your clones also apply torment.
3) Scepter (and the condi builds that use it) already outputs a ton of condi’s.

Putting the first two together means you effectively apply permanent and uncleans-able torment. With scepter clones up, you don’t even have to AA yourself. Just by dodging and sitting in stealth, you’ll still do very good damage. Add this to the already strong condi output on scepter and you get a recipe for disaster.

Levetty.1279:

One day..one day we will find out why the community is so hostile to Mesmer being viable.

Granted on that day nobody will care because Mesmer will have been nerfed down to just having sword auto attack on a 5 second cooldown and of course Veil and portal so WvW commanders can say “of course Mesmer is good in WvW you have veil and portal, why wouldn’t you want to log in as it?”

I’m not complaining about any of the other buffs. However, this buffs the wrong mesmer specs in the wrong manner. It has nothing to do with making mesmer viable. The condi builds this improves were already very strong in 1v1 and roaming scenarios, and they didn’t need to be buffed any further.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

mango.9267:

There seems to be a lot of controversy about the scepter AA buff, so I thought I’d make this thread for people to focus the discussion on just that (and by “discussion”, I mean talk about why it’s a terrible idea).

I like the other buffs, but scepter AA didn’t need torment. I have no idea what Anet’s vision is, but condi mesmer didn’t need a buff. I worry that this does even more to proliferate the “condi meta” and threatens the health of the game.

Please discuss as the OP why you feel scepter was fine and exactly why condition mesmer didn’t need a buff. To simple state without evidence that scepter is fine and condition builds are in a good is not enough evidence to consider those 2 statements truthful and in no need of questioning.

I discuss my reasoning in the posts below. I never said scepter was fine; in fact, I even stated I think scepter could use a buff, but just not like this.

The tl;dr is that torment scepter AA and scepter clones make it so you can permanently torment your opponent, who has no counterplay options and no chance of cleansing it. This buffs condi mesmers, who didn’t need a buff.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Scepter as weapon is slow. It;s block function creating torment is useful, but only works on a melee strike and proc’s nothing on range.

This is wrong. If you block a ranged attack, you still apply torment, even if you’re not in melee range.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

To further put scepter at a disadvantage is the fact that traits which aid scepter at master level are found outside of the condition damage tree. Not to mention the condition damage tree is tied to power damage, further complicated by torment on shatter is a grandmaster trait found in a completely different tree again. In order to obtain stream lined synergy one would have to invest 30-20-10-20-30 in order to be able to produce clones, maximise scepter, make use of clone death and cause conditions on shatter. As you can see that build structure is not possible, so already you can create something functional, but not ideal or superior. This opposed to something like warrior where precision and condition damage and in the same tree as duel weilding which applies bleed,torment and cripple faster , and deep cuts which extends bleed time by 50% and increases crit chance on sword which proc’s sigils. Already you can see there is professions that have it much more streamlined.

I’m not talking about traits, per se. However, PU, debilitating dissipation, and deceptive evasion are all you need to make an insanely OP build with scepter. The other traits are almost irrelevant.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

The current state of conditions builds were much the same as engineer. Debil dissa proc’ed random conditions on clone destruction which made condition application easy, but you had no control over which conditions would be applied. The same issue applies to winds of chaos. The application was random and would often stack vulnerability which aided your cause in no way. Mesmer needed more direct and assured ways of playing out a condition build.

Random proc’s aren’t that unreliable. Condi mesmers still have very reliable sources of condi’s from sharper images, scepter 2, scepter 3, torch 4, torch 5, etc. The new scepter buff just pushes it over the top

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

^This is more of the crux of the concern..how will perplexity affect a torment mesmer in WvW. I feel in spvp scepter will become a hotjoin hero for a short time, but won’’t see the light of day in any higher competitive teams.

The concern isn’t about perplexity at all. Even a condi mesmer not running perplexity would still be very OP with this scepter buff. That said, it would be even worse when combined with all of the already common and strong specs that exist for condi mesmer. Shatter is probably still better for teamplay in pvp, but this scepter buff doesn’t help the condi meta plaguing the roaming scene.

denis.9487:

Summoning what?? Scepter clones are the worst clones on the field. The scepter needed help. Running a main hand weapon and turning the auto attack off tells you something about this weapon. Now whether torment was correct will be seen, but the scepter needed some love.

I agree that scepter AA could use a buff, but this buff is too much. Considering the builds that use scepter, this buffs mesmers in all the places it didn’t need to be buffed.

There have been a number of other suggestions for how to buff scepter in previous threads. What’s clear is that the current buff is a terrible idea.

Sagat.3285:

mango.9267:

Sagat.3285:

But necro has cc,transfer and higher burst,thief has sustain and control. Both have higher HP and not much boon to steal or corrupt.

Mesmers also have decent CC’s. And thieves have a much lower base hp pool than mesmers do. Thieves also have a ton of boons because of consume plasma, thrill of the crime, and power of inertia.

PU mesmer cc? Dire and carrion thief less hp than PU? Meta condition thief doesn’t use those traits.

Pistol 5, staff 5, sword 3, and F3 are all decent CC options that various PU mesmer builds have access to (some with access to all four). A full dire thief will have around the same hp as a mesmer with rabid + dire mixed. However, for base hp, thieves start out with much less than mesmers. And condition thieves do consume plasma (steal from mesmer) and run thrill of the crime; some of the 00644 p/d specs run both thrill of the crime and power of inertia.

But this is beyond the purpose of the thread, so I won’t go on belaboring this point.

denis.9487:

Just a correction the scepter is far from a clone factory. The animation, the speed of the bolt make this a really poor way to create illusions. IMO let the changes happen then adjust. Way to much theory crafting on something not implemented yet. The next y2k only in gw2.

It’s not just the AA that summons clones. Scepter 2 is a very short cd block that can summon a clone, and deceptive evasion lets you summon one whenever you have a dodge. Put all of it together, and scepter actually does very well at summoning clones.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The problem is solely with the Torment being on Ether Bolt. Because Scepter is already a clone factory weapon, there just isn’t a real counterplay option to the endless clones popping out short duaration, frequent Torment. Cleanse? It’s 2 seconds or less before it’s back on you at max stacks from the clones. Kill a clone? It’s 2 seconds or less before that clone is back, smacking you with torment again. This isn’t even factoring in other skills or traits.

With other condition autos, it stacks up, so cleanses can shut out a good amount of damage and buy time while the re-stack. Against Scepter clones, this doesn’t happen.

Keep the Torment off of Ether Bolt. Increase the duration of the Torment on Ether Blast to compensate. The strength of Scepter clones is that there are so kitten many of them. Keep it that way.

@Sagat: Thief has higher HP than Mesmer?

I agree with everything here. I don’t mind torment on all of the AA chain, but I don’t think clones should also apply torment. Alternatively, they could make it something like a 50% chance to proc on crit. Right now, the pressure from scepter AA + clones would be too ridiculous.

Sagat.3285:

But necro has cc,transfer and higher burst,thief has sustain and control. Both have higher HP and not much boon to steal or corrupt.

Mesmers also have decent CC’s. And thieves have a much lower base hp pool than mesmers do. Thieves also have a ton of boons because of consume plasma, thrill of the crime, and power of inertia.

LCV.7245:

Lol, mango clearly doesn’t play Mesmer very well, if at all :P

The bottom line is, torment is easier to fight than another condi application AA such as bleeding from Ranger short bow or bleeding/poison from Necro scepter (both of which have faster AA chains and faster projectiles than Mesmer chains). I mean, seriously compare this to Necro scepter. Necro have infinite projectile speed, the attacks themselves are faster, and there’s two separate conditions in the chain, which makes each of them harder to clear. Additionally, this chain reduces your healing by 33%. And as a cherry on top, Necro has so much condi burst that you can easily bury the bleeding and poison under have a dozen other conditions.

Oh, mango, in case you couldn’t find the Necro forums, I linked them for you. And if you’re going to continue being innept on the forums, you should probably move over to the Warrior forums, where you can’t find a single intelligent idea. I feel like you might fit in there.

Necro forums: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer
Warrior forums: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior

Please stop wasting space in a generally intelligent forum. Thank you.

Hey, nice personal attack. I have 1k+ hours on mesmer, but that’s irrelevant. I see tons of other mesmers (Pyro, Helseth, etc.) are equally concerned about this. Maybe you think they’re also “inept” at the class.

I’m going to read past the ad hominem and address your point directly. The difference between this and, say, a necro’s AA or a pistol thief’s AA, is that your clones will also apply it. Scepter 2 + deceptive evasion allows you to spawn scepter clones very easily, and they’ll apply torment even while you sit in stealth or use other skills. It’s much worse than a mere condi on AA because it’s so much easier to apply.

Windwalker.7421:

Giving it Torment makes it only marginally more likely that you’re ever going to stand there and AA, basically only when everything else is down and you have nothing else left to do. It’s a short Torment and you’re not going to ever AA enough to keep any meaningful amount of Torment up unless you also use Scepter clones & #2.

And clearly, if that last part has you worried, you don’t understand what iEasticity fix will do to ALREADY stronger staff clones. (Stronger then the Tormenting Scepter ones I mean.)

No one just stands there and AA’s. You have the 1 skill on auto and you can weave in torments in between other skills. Again, it’s not just the duration or number of stacks, it’s the ease of application that’s problematic. A very strong damaging condition on both clones and AA means it’s impossible for your enemies to cleanse it all, and it provides you another condi that they’d cleanse before other condi’s, only to have it reapplied the next second.

Yes, the IE buff will also buff condi mesmers. But IE also buffs a number of other builds. And IE + staff clones are still a smaller threat than torment on scepter AA. The only condi you inflict on staff is from AA and (briefly) chaos storm. On scepter, you have 5 stacks of torment on 2, and 5 stacks of confusion on 3. Tons of bleeds if you take pistol, and burning if you take torch.

It’s the combination of this scepter AA buff, in addition to the already strong condi output on scepter, that makes this ridiculous.

Windwalker.7421:

It will make PU/Condie a tad stronger and most of us agree that’s not a good side effect, but clearly the problem there is NOT Scepter, but PU. I’m sure we’ll see adjustments to PU once a few other builds become more reasonably viable. I just think ANet is worried about killing off PU before knowing how the new changes work out, and alienating Mesmer players even more then they have already.

The problem is scepter, and not PU. Even if I don’t take PU, a condi spec using rabid + scepter/pistol or scepter/torch will be ridiculously strong. It’s just even worse when you combine this with PU.

Windwalker.7421:

I think it’s a good change, and a great move on ANets part to choose the right condition for the Scepter. A single Bleed stack for example would simply not have been enough for both the clones and the AA, but Torment gives the enemy the option to have a weak nuisance of a Condie ticking away on you if you stand still, or a relatively strong one if you move.

The problem is your clones already inflict bleed on crit. Add torment and this just becomes ridiculous.

Windwalker.7421:

It’s as much a control ability as it is a condition damage ability. That’s why it fits the Mesmer perfectly to have more of it! (Especially since they’re keeping Confusion weak.)

It’s a control ability with no counterplay. Like I said, you can wait out the block or dodge scepter 2, but this scepter AA will inflict good and uncleans-able torment damage throughout the entire fight.

Eodwen.2613:

If I got it right (since I didnt check the vid myself),what we are in fact talking about is 3stacks of torment at max every 3 secs that last for 2 seconds ( 3 in wvw prolly) and for that the mesmer would have to be autoattacking so as to maintain them.

Even if you’re underestimating the amount of torment, what you’ve described is already very significant. It’s not just about how many stacks or how long they last, but also the ease of application.

Having torment on each of the scepter AA’s, and on scepter clones, makes torment extremely easy to apply. What this means is that you can effectively maintain permanent torment on your opponent, and they’ll be unable to cleanse it all. At best, it’s another cover condi that they have to cleanse, but torment also does pretty good damage, meaning you could finish opponents with scepter AA alone.

Add this to the bleeds, confusions, long duration torment, and burning that mesmers can apply, and you have an extremely powerful condi build.

Eodwen.2613:

Now suppose we talking about pu builds they hardly use aa to begin with and anyone who tries to use it with pu will surely underperform.

PU builds do autoattack. The point is to maintain permanent torment so that they have one more condition to cleanse. Almost all builds autoattack fairly frequently.

Eodwen.2613:

Now for non pu builds I think it ll only work to keep some condi pressure netween bleed bursts or miaim shatters. All in all the only thing it can do for pu is help presure people that wait to burst down a pu by not attacking.

Not fighting a PU mesmer was one of the best ways to counter the build, but it’ll be much more difficult now. With scepter 2, at least there was some counterplay involved, where an opponent could simply wait out the block or dodge the application. It’s impossible to do either with the scepter AA.

Eodwen.2613:

As for condi meta ie buff is imo of greater impact. Of course mesmer not having good aggressive condi builds wont stop the meta as it hasnt for so long.

IE fix + scepter AA buff makes condi mesmer insanely good. At least with the IE fix, damage in tons of builds will be improved, power builds included. And condi mesmers are one of the main culprits behind the condi meta. They didn’t need to be buffed.

There seems to be a lot of controversy about the scepter AA buff, so I thought I’d make this thread for people to focus the discussion on just that (and by “discussion”, I mean talk about why it’s a terrible idea).

I like the other buffs, but scepter AA didn’t need torment. I have no idea what Anet’s vision is, but condi mesmer didn’t need a buff. I worry that this does even more to proliferate the “condi meta” and threatens the health of the game.

Very excited about iLeap.

kitten was Anet thinking with torment on scepter auto? That’s just ridiculous…

Fuzzion.2504:

From what i heard , some folk are happy with the way t2 is panning out and some are unhappy. I shall leave it there.

I haven’t heard anyone happy with the way things are panning out. And why are people unhappy? Stale matchups? Broken PPT mechanic? No fights? Lack of GvG support? What specifically caused so many guilds to disband recently?

Every week, it seems I hear about so-and-so guild disbanding or quitting. As an outsider, I’m opening this thread to discuss what’s going on to cause this and what can be done to prevent it from happening in other tiers as well.

I’d like to keep this away from the mind-numbing server bashing that happens on the community forums (i.e. refrain from comments like “server X is stacking/buying guilds”) and focus on the issue of what caused so many guilds to quit in the past month.

The death of some of the best guilds in the game should be symptomatic of a larger problem that we can hopefully address.

BrunoBRS.5178:

eh, i feel you spend more time setting up your stealth than actually moving. it’s like sitting on a symbol of swiftness for its full duration so you can walk 10 seconds, then stop, do it again, repeat.

except the setup is even longer.

The setup takes around the same time. 5222 is the only thing limiting your speed, and even then, it’s not that long.

Mind you, throwing down a shadow refuge or blasting a smokescreen takes even longer to set up, and doesn’t offer permanent stealth. This is the fastest way to stealth indefinitely.

Lastly, presumably, you won’t need to stealth for the entire time you’re moving. Just use this to stealth past areas with tons of mobs. You don’t need permanent stealth anywhere, not even on Cursed Shore.

BrunoBRS.5178:

mango.9267:

You can permanently stealth using Patience (trait X, I believe) in Shadow Arts, d/p, hide in shadows, and blinding powder. Toss in shadow refuge if you mess up.

Using pistol 5 gives you a smoke field, and using heartseeker gives you a leap finisher. Currently, you can leap three times through your pistol black powder (4 times if you shorten your heartseeker and if you have the extra initiative from Trickery). Cycle through your 5222 combo, and stagger blinding powder/hide in shadows when you’re low on initiative. If you stagger well, you can maintain stealth indefinitely.

but you can’t really move while doing so, which is what OP is asking for, i think.

You can move while doing this. Hide in shadows and blinding powder can both be used on the move, and 5222 can be used anywhere; you can also aim your last heartseeker in the direction you want to go. Doing the rotation right gives you 7-12 seconds of motion before you need to lay down another black powder.

You can permanently stealth using Patience (trait X, I believe) in Shadow Arts, d/p, hide in shadows, and blinding powder. Toss in shadow refuge if you mess up.

Using pistol 5 gives you a smoke field, and using heartseeker gives you a leap finisher. Currently, you can leap three times through your pistol black powder (4 times if you shorten your heartseeker and if you have the extra initiative from Trickery). Cycle through your 5222 combo, and stagger blinding powder/hide in shadows when you’re low on initiative. If you stagger well, you can maintain stealth indefinitely.

Let’s be honest, the new golem mastery won’t do anything for open field zerg fights. The key to winning zerg fights is still high mobility and good positioning, which are both severely limited by golems.

However, it does make defending that much harder. The last thing that needed a buff was golems. It’s already easy as kitten to build 8 omegas and PvDoor down fortified keeps.

If you’re not playing this character seriously, then it doesn’t really matter. Play whatever you find to be more fun (it seems you’re leaning towards ranger anyway).

If you think you might want to elevate your play some time later, go with mesmer. More utility for both zergs and small roaming groups.

I’m sorry, but how is Anet this out of touch? No one thinks making golems stronger is a good idea. No one.

I’ve played power p/d as my main set for quite a while:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAqYl0MpypdPx0J8PNBQhsVAu7MZj3JP2E-TVCFwANVitRPAgHAwVlgCOBAoUpIpyja7PoSdlAAIAczbezbezbWKgRFGB-w

It’s perfectly viable for roaming and dueling. With guard stacks, you do good sustained dps, and your non-negligible condi damage will effectively negate the passive healing on many classes. Positioning is much easier because you don’t have to be in melee, and you should be able to take down just about any class/build if played correctly.

Pack runes + thrill of the crime give you permafury and permaswiftness in combat. On a medium armored target, sneak attack, shadow strike, and CnD will all crit for 3-4k.

Compared to the 2/6/6 build linked above, mine has more armor and vitality, about the same power and critical chance (taking permafury into account), and better sustained dps given 30 in trickery (300 extra condi damage, boon steal, daze, steal recharge). I don’t think critical strikes is really worth it on a sustained dps weapon set — I’d take sleight of hand over executioner for that reason.

The weapon set overall isn’t great for GvG’s or serious organized fights where you need to burst and get out.

Others have provided good responses, but I feel the most important thing is to maintain good morale.

What this means is that even if you wipe or fail an objective, don’t lash out at others, even if they were at fault. Even if you have two people on tag, don’t get discouraged and leave. Just keep on taking smaller objectives until you get more people again. This is where most wannabe pugmanders fail. Once they wipe and lose their zerg, they tag down and go elsewhere. You’ll never lead sixty people if you’re unwilling to lead three.

There are a number of ways to address PPT, but this isn’t one of them.

Having more people is often a symptom of better organization or better play. However, this system would actually penalize the server for playing better. Yes, many matchups are inherently imbalanced by population, but not all of them are. In a more balanced matchup, you don’t want to penalize a server for getting organized and gaining momentum.

Also, as people have said, it’s ripe for abuse. Roamers, duelers, uplevels, rangers, etc. will be subject to toxicity. And it conflicts with Anet’s philosophy, since it discourages people from playing together.

PPT does need to be reworked. But not like this.

My two cents:

Was this a considerable nerf to s/d? Yes.
Did s/d need to be nerfed? Yes.

At this point, just about every thief you see in PvP is playing some version of s/d acro. It’s gotten to the point that it’s hampering build diversity, which is why I think Anet chose to address it.

Why not nerf acro instead? Probably because Anet wants acro to synergize with more than just s/d. And probably because Anet didn’t want to nerf the sustain from s/d, just the damage. As it is now, s/d kinda does it all — great sustain and good damage.

Why not nerf sigils? Almost every power build in almost every class uses fire and air. No need to nerf everyone’s damage when only one build and one weapon set is the problem.

My group opted to save the inquest in CoE P1 for reasons I can’t fathom. In the process of killing the silver mobs, the wolf leaped into the bubble and became invulnerable. None of us could get aggro, pull him, or make him leave the invulnerable spot in the bubble.

In the end, we had to quit the run right there because we couldn’t kill him to proceed.