Guild Wars 2

Clownmug.8357:

In conclusion, why the hell is Shadow Refuge’s cooldown 60 sec and Mass Invisibility is 90 sec?

Refuge applies to up to 5 players, applies instant reveal if anyone inside is knocked out, and makes everyone inside the small circle susceptible to AoE pressure from the enemy team. Mass invis applies to up to 10 players, has no positional requirement other than staying within 1200 radius of the caster, and has no counterplay other than interrupting the mesmer. The two skills aren’t similar at all.

Then there’s the bigger problem of comparing skills in a vacuum, which should never be done.

Game breaking? No. Very strong? Yes. The rune set very often carries the player, which is bad design, IMO.

Narkodx.1472:

Equal in condition damage bonuses
The #6 bonus of krait runes has NO COUNTERPLAY – it is unblockable 3 different cond
The #6 bonus of perplexity runes is undoubtedly stronger but it is counterable by stability unless facing a thief with sleight of hand

Don’t forget that the 6th bonus on krait depends on using an elite, which is usually a 45 sec cd in the best case scenario (often much longer). The 6th bonus on perplexity can be proc’d much more often, given the many interrupts most classes have.

lvis.3824:

But this specc does not do good in sPvP because of the much lower stats.
It does not hurt at all, ofc, you can run it as condispec but thats better done with P/D.

Look, I agree with you that D/D isn’t strong in PvP. I’ve stated it twice before, and I’ll state it again: D/D is weak in point-capture scenarios. This is because you have to fight in confined spaces, worry about holding points, and often fight 1v1 against bunker/condi specs on far points, without the same utility/damage mitigation that D/P and S/D bring.

However, D/D is viable in team play situations where the objective isn’t point-capture. I’m talking 2v2 – 5v5 death matches where two teams just try to kill each other. In these situations, there is reason to pick D/D over some other weapon set because of the burst it brings. I think the same is true for general WvW play.

Note, again, that I said D/D was viable, meaning you contribute well in team fights, but not optimal, meaning that D/P and S/D bring more utility and are probably stronger overall.

lvis.3824:

Why do you think EVERY thieef out there, who does play at least in the top 1000 in leaderboard (+ all streaming thiefs and all thiefs from top teams that were broadcasted ) plays either D/P or S/D ? Perhaps sometimes S/P ?
Well, let me tell you why, cause D/D sucks and is not even close to beeing viable.

You’re talking about point-capture, which is entirely different from death-match. D/D is limited in point-capture scenarios by the need to CnD (and therefore stealth) and by the fact that it doesn’t have the close combat damage mitigation that D/P and S/D do. However, in scenarios where you’re not worried about holding points and where you’re not worried about fighting in confined spaces, D/D does perfectly fine.

I’d also like to point out that you’re confusing viable with optimal. D/D isn’t optimal in the sense that D/P and S/D are probably stronger overall, but D/D is more than viable in the sense that you’re able contribute well to team fights.

lvis.3824:

With D/D you have exactly ONE chance to nuke your target, when you have your Elite up and steal is ready.
And this 3 abilities ( C’n’D , steal , backstab ) have to hurt !

A ton of damage comes just from dagger autos, and dancing dagger bounces also do pretty decent damage. Even in single target scenario, staggering steal, infiltrator signet, and shadowstep gives you more than enough gap closers to land your heavy hitting combos. It’s a complete myth to think that the weapon set is useless in between mug/CnD/backstab combos.

lvis.3824:

Not going into CS as D/D thief is even more fail, cause you lose the 100% critchance on you “killshot”. You will also lose a lot of critchance, and critdmg which is what makes a Backstab hit so hard.
Sure you can run with Superior Sigil of Intelligence as i wrote but your B/S will still hit for less.

Thieves are in a state where a ton of damage comes from fire/air proc’s. This is why it’s no longer mandatory to spec into CS. This is just as true in PvP, where I think 60206 is stronger than 26006, as it is in WvW, where I think 20606 is the strongest trait spread on any weapon set.

I’d like to also point out that meta builds in PvP don’t take Hidden Killer either.

lvis.3824:

If you are in EU please please let us duel and you will understand why D/D is bullkitten in PvP .

I play NA, and I’m not going to spend $60 on a duel. If you have an NA account, feel free to PM in game to set something up. That said, I sincerely hope you don’t think dueling proves anything.

lvis.3824:

Ask yourself this, what do i gain from /D over /P ?

To simplify, you get more damage. D/P brings more utility, but the weapon set is inherently more defensive. With the exception of death blossom, every skill on D/D hits hard. In team play scenarios where the objective isn’t to hold points, there is reason to take D/D over D/P for the higher burst potential that D/D brings.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Jeknar.6184:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

I’m just going to go ahead and say it: I blame Anet directly for these matchups. The RNG chances of just one of these matchups occurring was less than 4%. The RNG chances of all 3? We’re looking at about the same chance as getting a precursor out of the forge.

The matches were manually fixed. So, yeah, eff you Anet. I don’t know what you were planning, or what you thought to accomplish, but go to hell.

You contradict yourself when you say the chances of it’s happening are about the same of getting a precursor on the forge and then saying the matches were manually fixed… Because i know quite a few people that got precursors from the forge (one of them got 9 so far).

The chances of getting a precursor using 4 exotics from the forge is 0.07% .. hence why I’m flat out saying that the matches were fixed. The RNG for these matches is rolled once per week. This isn’t like dumping 100 greatswords into the forge at once. Do you understand now? The chance being as low as it is, I’m calling them out for fixing the matches. One? Okay, I can understand. All 3? Nope.

First, the probabilities of each of these rolls aren’t independent of one another, so the probability of three mis-matched rolls isn’t as low as you suggest. Second, we don’t know if Anet has adjusted the Glicko algorithm to allow greater match-up variety. Both of these combined, it’s a leap to accuse Anet of match fixing.

lvis.3824:

I know there are ppl pretending they do play it as roamer in WvW too, but this will only work unless you face someone who knows how to fight a D/D thief, then it’s game over.

Lol, this is so wrong. D/D isn’t great for point capture, but it does fine in death match. And in 1v1 scenarios, it’s more than viable. Is it as strong as D/P or S/D? Probably not, but that doesn’t mean you only win fights against bad players.

lvis.3824:

In a WvW Group i can also still work as D/D , but you are heavily carried, basicly waiting for your group to open and you go in for the killing blow, moving out right after and just deal Dmg with Shortbow.

This is also completely wrong. D/D has probably the highest burst of any weapon set. By this fact alone, it’ll contribute nicely to team fights. Not to mention that you could very well trait 6 into trickery for the standard team utility.

lvis.3824:

Problem with D/D is, your backstab needs to hurt, and i mean really hurt.
For that you have to invest into critical Strikes, ( well dunno, could also perhaps try Sigil of Intelligence… ).
This does not leave much room for any supportive traitline.

This is, you guessed it, also wrong. You don’t need critical strikes on D/D. I personally enjoy 20606 or 20246.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Well-said. The only possible change we might be seeing is that Mag is probably going to drop to 13 on Friday, and given their performance over the last couple months might actually make a proper 13-14-15 matchup. Hard to tell, though, until we actually play them.

That is, you know, if Anet actually matches us together instead of throwing a friggin’ rank 9 server at us.

Having fought Mag for the past two weeks and BP/HoD shortly before that, I think Mag’s population is comparable to that of BP and HoD. If Mag drops to T5, you could probably get a nice, balanced tier there.

The Silver tiers should probably be DB/IoJ/CD, NSP/DR/SBI, and Mag/HoD/BP.

Jeknar.6184:

I love how people complain that they have to face the same matchups and complain when they get different matchups…

Balance and variety aren’t mutually exclusive. Sadly, the current WvW system gives us one at the expense of the other. The ideal system would give us different matchups each week without any huge blowouts.

It shouldn’t have even been 7v11v13. It should have been 7v8v9.

Besides taking a structure, the only way to deny it upgrades is to kill the yaks feeding into it. If you’re severely outnumbered, this is sometimes the only option to prevent a stronger enemy from building waypoints in your BL.

Yak slapping is also a great way for solo players to contribute to their server.

Periphery play is all about self-sustain, since you can’t rely on your melee train to save you every time. The reason s/f isn’t popular on the periphery is because it lacks this. It just doesn’t have the same access to mobility, stealth, blinks, evades, invuln, etc. that mesmers and thieves do. If the enemy train catches you without obsidian flesh or lightning flash, you’re probably dead.

My guild runs d/d ele’s, but they’re only slightly more preferable to s/f ele’s. More mobility, more self-sustain, and possibly more group utility with aura share, but still susceptible to being trained down. Our d/d ele’s often spend half the time running with the melee train and half the time picking off lows with the gank team.

I don’t know why you feel this warrants a thread, nor do I know why you think ticking 610 is an accomplishment.

If you’re bored of condi teef, try taking off your weapons. It’s still pretty easy!

SkyFallsInThunder.8257:

“Hey, look at us, we won fights against cripples and we ruined other people’s farm. Aren’t we awesome?”

No, no you’re not.

Idk, mang, you sound like someone who fell for our devious bobblehead laboratory bait.

Now you’re just being offensive by calling EotM a PvE map. I’ll have you know, PvE mobs are much more difficult to kill than your average EotM player.

Because it features sick gameplay in WvW, much like all the other videos posted in this section.

Hello, all. Due to the lack of fights in OCX time from the #dedgaem phenomenon, my guild has decided to start raiding in EotM. Linked below is a compilation of some of our sickest raids. Prepare for some of the most amazing gameplay to ever grace the face of #esports.

Black Frog.9274:

The build presented has only a 25% chance of fury (that requires being hit). If it procs, that’s 50% crit with fury for 10 secs. It has hidden killer and two sources of stealth. However, they’re on 30 and 40 second intervals. One of them is the heal skill and burning it for stealth to get the crit seems odd to me. At best, alternating between them without regard for actual healing and if attacking ends the stealth, you get at best one attack every 15 seconds or so with guaranteed crit while burning your heals to no effect.

D/P has nearly unlimited access to stealth using the black powder/heartseeker combo. The idea behind this build is to rely on hidden killer to consistently crit on backstabs, which are the main source of damage. Very rarely will you blow your utilities for an offensive stealth. There are a ton of weaknesses to this build, but it’s very beginner friendly because of how defensive it is and how consistent the crits are.

Black Frog.9274:

Playing around with builds (again, I’m basically a noob at this and could be completely wrong), I tweaked the build to use Assassin armor (the question in the OP), Soldier trinkets, dropped DA for Acro, swapped out some traits in CS, changed 2 utility skills, swapped stone for oil, and came up with this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaVlsMpxplPxwJ8PNhPBtdASwr5OER4DdNDA-TVCBwA12f4oyvFm/kcCAA8EAIq+TK9BTUCu5QAQIABLAA-w

If you trait 6 points into critical strikes, there’s absolutely no reason not to take either hidden killer or executioner. Both traits are outstanding. With 69% crit chance, I highly, highly, highly recommend executioner. Also, I’d recommend mixing knight/valk over soldier, and putting both fire and air sigils on your D/P.

Jana.6831:

Carpboy.7145:

Jana.6831:

@ Bazzoong: Why would I want condition damage on my D/D – set?

Death blossom gives 3 stacks of long lasting bleeds, poison on auto, still uses power and precision with backstab

Ok, would a backstab build with 00446 or 20246 really be that great? I can see people trying to pull off DB with this but that’s about it. And it might work but only with a lot of effort. I think this set would be great for P/D thieves they don’t really need dire anyway.

It’d make for a mediocre backstab build, but the play style would revolve around death blossoms anyway, with backstabs or heartseekers to finish. It’d still be a pretty weak build overall because death blossoms are very easy to avoid.

You’re right about helping P/D thieves though. In the hands of a good player who knows how to sustain, this stat would really improve that weapon set. Sadly, it’s the last weapon set that needs any improving.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Forgot the S/S warriors in there, which is always on condi Warriors.

I included S/S warriors, but they often spend more time on longbow than on S/S.

mango.9267:

A few of the builds have melee weapons (s/s warrior, s/t ranger), but they mainly use ranged weapons .

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Longbow also makes up Warrior power builds. You also left out Staff eles and Rifle burst engie on the Power builds.

Staff eles aren’t meta for roaming play (where this discussion is most relevant), and most power warriors pick greatsword over longbow for the mobility.

I also did include static discharge engi as a ranged power build.

mango.9267:

Static discharge engi’s and longbow rangers (who usually run greatsword swap) are really the only two ranged power builds that are popular in WvW.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Power builds we have Longbow Rangers, GS Mesmers, Staff Eles, Longbow Warriors (let’s face it, every Warrior build runs Longbow right now), S/F ele, Axe/focus necro, rifle burst engie, SD engie, grenade engie (yes, this works well in Power). Hmm, pretty sure I missed some, but that’s 9 ranged Power builds right there…

I grant you longbow ranger and power nades/static discharge engis, but I’ve already conceded that in my post. GS mesmers usually run S/T for the burst, and if they did burst on GS, it would be in melee. S/F eles are much less popular than D/D eles, and axe/focus necro is in that gray area between ranged and melee. You include 3 different power engi builds, but they’re often the same build.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You seem to have a massive case of confusion between Power/Condition and Melee/Ranged. Ranged builds kite, not condition builds. Very important difference.

I don’t have any confusion. It just so happens that most of the meta condition builds are ranged, and most of the meta power builds are melee. However, even melee condition builds have a luxury of kiting that their melee power counterparts don’t.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Missing attacks isn’t something any build has a luxury of. You miss your attack, you do no damage. Power builds (especially Zerker) only need to land a few hits as well. I don’t see a difference there. You dodge a Maul or you dodge a Grasping Dead, the result is the same: you take none of the effects of that attack. Or are you one of those people that thinks conditions can’t be dodged?

That was poor word choice on my part. I don’t mean missing attacks as your performing an action that’s been dodged or blinded. What I mean is that condition builds have the luxury of not needing to constantly land hits to dish out DPS. If you want deal damage on a power build, you have to land hits, and time you spend not landing hits is time your opponent can wait on cd’s or heal up. The same isn’t true for condition builds, which only require landing a few hits that permit a lot of downtime in between, while still maintaining decent DPS.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Nice try, but nope. No condition build in the game can dish out 4k damage in 2-3 seconds. I can name a ton of Power builds that do it, though. My Greatsword Ranger consistently lands 4k hits every 6 seconds with no buffs on her or debuffs on the target.

A condition guardian’s burn is already 800-1200 damage a tick. Add a few ticks of bleed from geomancy, or poison from doom, or torment from sigils, and you easily get 4k damage in 2-3 seconds. Similarly, a P/D teef with balthazar runes applies 5 stacks of bleeds (let’s say 500/sec), 2 stacks of torment (let’s say 250/sec), 5 stacks of confusion (let’s say 500/sec), poison (let’s say 200/sec), and burning (let’s say 600/sec) in a single burst, and that’s easily 4k damage in 3 seconds. Those estimates are being conservative too.

Condition builds can easily achieve 4k damage in 2-3 seconds. Thinking otherwise is just delusional.

No, the problem with P/P was never the damage, which was always pretty good. The problem was (and still is) P/P’s sustain. No stealth, no evades, and no mobility built into the weapon set. This new stat does nothing to fix that problem.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Most condition builds are ranged, but so are an equal number of Power builds. That’s a wash.

That’s not true. Consider the meta condition builds: nade engi’s, p/d teefs, scepter/staff mesmers, longbow warriors, staff necromancers, shortbow rangers, scepter guardians. The only meta condition build I can think of in melee is d/f ele, but even then, the signet or staff version of the build is also ranged. A few of the builds have melee weapons (s/s warrior, s/t ranger), but they mainly use ranged weapons .

On the other hand, the meta power builds: d/p or s/d teef, s/t + gs shatter mesmer, eviscerate warrior, d/f power necro (usually staff on swap), medi guard, d/d ele. Static discharge engi’s and longbow rangers (who usually run greatsword swap) are really the only two ranged power builds that are popular in WvW.

I don’t know why it’s this way, but the meta condition builds are overwhelmingly ranged, whereas the meta power builds are overwhelmingly melee.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Power builds may not be able to do that, but they also have no need to; their damage is already done. They don’t need to wait for their damage to take effect.

That’s worse for power builds. Condition builds don’t need to constantly land hits to dish out DPS. They only need to land a few hits, and even if the other attacks miss or if the player just runs around kiting, the conditions continue ticking. On the other hand, power builds don’t have the luxury of missing hits or kiting around because the player does no DPS if he doesn’t land hits.

Yes, the damage is already done for power builds, but that damage is often mitigated. The condition damage, even if it doesn’t tick for full duration, is still done fairly quickly. 2-3 ticks of a condition burst is already comparable damage to that of a power burst. Even if they cleanse the conditions after that, the damage is still done as well.

I have no idea how people can give you advice without asking for your traits or your weapons. Do you need SA to survive? Do you want trickery? Do you prefer D/P or D/D?

For example, if you run sleight of hand, thrill of the crime, and pack runes, then pick zerk/valk over assassin’s because you’re going to maintain very high fury up-time. If you don’t have access to a lot of fury, then mix some assassin’s in so you don’t have to pick hidden killer over executioner. This assumes you trait into critical strikes at all, which you certainly don’t have to.

What stats you pick depends crucially on your traits, weapons, runes, sigils, etc.

Coronit.9432:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaVlsMpyplPx0J8PNBNBtdFGeI4uGlYGaFAA-TliDABuqE0gHAAAm/Q4EAsz+DfoPQgjAgPK/i4QAAj6PECQwWA-w
Made it quickly, you can go for more zerker if you want. (its D/P, but D/D works, too)

You generally don’t need 18k health, especially playing D/P. Would spec a lot more knight/cav/zerk in, and take out half of the valk pieces.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Tell you what, you try a build that absolutely requires significant time to kill without any defensive stats. See how well you do.

Hint: you’ll stop getting any kills.

To the OP: Not such a great idea. Conditions are balanced from never having their damage divided by never having it multiplied either. Only changes necessary to conditions are some form of addressing the stack cap in PvE.

Condition builds kill just as quickly as power builds do — many times even quicker. And even if they didn’t, most condition builds are ranged, allowing the player to kite or hide while the conditions tick. The play style is inherently more passive and more defensive — having full dire as an option just pushes this play style over the top.

Conditions aren’t balanced at all in small scale combat. The only “balance” for conditions is to pick larger battles, which is just absurd.

Jeknar.6184:

Conditions are already powerful enough as they are and you want to make them even more powerful?

OP’s proposal would make conditions weaker. He proposes a general reduction (say, half) to the base condition tick, with the chance of a crit modifier to increase this otherwise reduced damage. This pushes condition builds away from choices like dire or rabid, where they can output comparable DPS to power builds and remain fairly tanky.

Julie Yann.5379:

Fights definitely come first but killing yaks, flipping camps and maybe even a tower is also part of it. On T1 if you happen to pop swords on a camp it’s not another roamer that will come to fight you. It’s a party of 10 or 15, where’s the good fight then, you either have to run or get stomped.

This is only in T1. In any other tier, this would never happen, and removing swords will prevent roamers from finding each other.

Julie Yann.5379:

If the changes to swords work out the way I think they intend it to, servers will need to have more small patrols and roamers to make up for what the swords use to do. That means more possible fights.

Again, this might only be a possibility in T1 (and YB, who already has this implemented). No other server has enough people willing to do such a boring job or enough action to warrant it. It’ll help small groups that want to PvDoor, but it’ll help large zergs even more. It’s not hard to drop 3 superior rams, tell people not to proc orange swords, and then steamroll everything on the map.

Even worse for finding other small groups to fight.

Julie Yann.5379:

As a roamer I think it is great. Now I can ninja cap objectives without the entire map being made aware of my presence. Those looking for action can always look for orange swords.

Mega blobs will still be quite visible on the map, maybe this will encourage them to break up into smaller groups with multiple commanders fighting on several fronts.

How can you consider yourself a roamer if you’d rather PvE than PvP? Generally, roamers seek fights first; objectives are simply a means to finding fights. Sounds like you just want objectives, without the fights.

I honestly can’t think of any roamer or fight-oriented player who’d support this change.

Wouldn’t recommend the weapon set in PvP on any build.

You contribute less in team fights because you don’t offer the same burst that other weapon sets do. You’re only semi-viable in far-point skirmishes, but good luck taking down bunker guards or d/d eles. Your condition damage is only single target, as opposed to that of necro’s or engi’s, and your power damage is nothing compared to that of other thief sets. Even with a celestial amulet, you still contribute less than a cele d/d ele or cele engi because you still can’t hold points.

If you’re just playing hotjoins, then any build is fine. If you’re playing serious tPvP, I suggest another weapon set.

Depends on how you’re leveling. If you’re solo leveling by doing open world content/personal story, then having both power and condition damage is fine. I fondly remember spamming Death Blossom and Caltrops while I kited mobs around in my first teef play-through a long, long time ago.

Honestly, most people don’t update their gear enough for the stats to really matter. Most people just wear the highest level loot they find, whatever the stats may be. If you’re leveling by doing living story or EotM (anything with a lot of other players), then stats matter even less.

Johje Holan.4607:

1. Identify the zerg.

• Someone needs to search out the zerg
• When found, the player needs to trail the zerg and stick to it like glue
• This way, there will be no surprise attacks

This doesn’t work when there are multiple groups running around the map. Then, ideally, you’d need one person trailing each group. That’s also assuming no group waypoints and no group kills the scout, both of which are very unlikely.

Johje Holan.4607:

2. Scouts for the southern camps.

• Instead of sitting in all towers and keeps, scouts will need to patrol the three southern camps of their BL to spot invaders as soon as they enter the map.
• These scouts should have more fun than just sitting in towers. They can fight anyone who enters the BL, they can take the camps.
• These scouts will alert the zerg trailer if the zerg ports into the BL.

This is no better than sitting in a tower. For most tiers, the BL will be empty for many of the timezones, so patrolling would basically just entail running between spawns, waiting for something to happen.

Johje Holan.4607:

Maybe the loss of white swords won’t be so bad after all. Maybe it will even be good.

In no way is it a good thing. Anet should encourage fighting enemies, and removing white swords does just the opposite.

In no way does this change encourage fighting enemy players. It encourages very boring scouting on servers that can afford scouts, and it encourages PvDoor for everyone else. Why would Anet promote either of these options? Nobody enjoys sitting in a tower waiting, and if you’d rather PvDoor than fight enemies, PvE offers much better rewards.

This change also, in no way, helps the weakest server. Thinking that is just delusional.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Interesting. I suppose it can be canceled with a dodge or possibly by sheathing weapons mid cast.

^Can be canceled both ways but will however not remove the return spot nor reset the skill to the first in chain.

By cancel I mean return in place and reset to the first skill in the chain.

You should probably post this in the teef forums: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief

I personally prefer D/D, but S/D does comparable damage in practice and offers a bit more utility with cripple/weakness, teleport, longer evade, and boon strip. D/P is also very strong, especially if you trait 6 points into SA (not that you need to); the weapon set is more defensive than the other two and usually comes down to patiently waiting for your opponent to make a mistake.

If you’re learning teef, I’d recommend S/D because it’s a very well-rounded weapon set with applications in both PvP and WvW. It’ll also mean you’ll probably trait 6 points into trickery, instead of the outdated x/6/6/x/x, which will do much more for teaching you teef fundamentals.

Neither; the metabattle entry isn’t quite right. Repeatedly using infiltrator’s strike and cancelling infiltrator’s return is the fastest way to move around a map. Requires a target in the distance, but if you have one, it’s faster than both heartseekering repeatedly and using infiltrator’s arrow.

Anet should balance the profession as a whole, and not the use of one ability. Thieves are currently in a good place, balance wise. Despite OP’s list, thieves aren’t overpowered by any means. Nerfing steal would make them pretty underwhelming.

lordkrall.7241:

Oh, so when they don’t let us test things they are the worst company ever for not letting us test things, but when they let us test things they are the worst company every for wasting time?

Keep in mind how much rage and stuff we had about the NPE before people actually played it. Based on voices here it was the worst thing ever and would kill the game. When the update actually happened and people actually started trying it out though, most found it quite good.

Some things require testing, and some things don’t. When an idea is so unanimously spurned and so obviously terrible, Anet does more harm by “testing” it than by simply nipping it in the bud.

By disregarding overwhelming player feedback, Anet appears very out-of-touch with the player base and very ignorant about how WvW works.

lordkrall.7241:

There is no harm whatsoever in testing this over a weekend. And the fact that they actually put it up for testing instead of just simply adding it permanently is a rather good thing in my eyes.

Except they said they’d be testing this for multiple weeks, likely in the month of December. Multiple weeks of karma trains, PvDoor, and inability to detect enemy movements? No one who actually plays WvW would think that’s good for WvW.

lordkrall.7241:

Which is why it is great to actually test it. Then both the players and ArenaNet can see if it works or not.

…there’s no need to test this. Everyone who’s played enough WvW knows this is a terrible idea. It’s frustrating because there’s a clear disconnect between the players, who already know the consequences of this change, and Anet, whose stubbornness insists this change still needs to be “tested”.

In my mind, this would be like insisting we “test” whether the apple will fall to the ground when dropped. Anet is like that crazy guy who thinks there’s a chance the apple will fly up.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

2) True, it’s not much of a “gate” — blue and red have actual, rammable gates, and it seems odd that red doesn’t share the same features as blue. Green’s water gate is technically also protected by its outer cannons.

You can ram green keep watergate too. There’s a slight ledge above them where you can jump up and drop a ram.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

3) I’ll concede that, but the people who have (and hold) SMC are more often than not going to be red team.

That’s completely false, since red is usually weakest server offseason/always weakest server during seasons.

Dancing dagger is crucial for getting rid of blind/aegis. If anything, I think they should fix the projectile bugs and lower the cost by 1 initiative, but keep the skill as it is otherwise.

Been saying it for a while, and will say it again: GvG and open field guilds should seriously consider moving to T3/T4. Better matchup variety, much less siege, and solid fighting culture. CD, IoJ, DR, NSP, and Mag all have a much better view of fighting and the (ir)relevance of PPT than do YB/SoS.

Jeknar.6184:

Ogrewatch isn’t a inner tower as it can be trebbed from SMC (only outer towers can be trebbed from SMC).

Also Mendon is the only inner tower that cannot be trebbed from your keep.

And if you still want to argue about who is inner and who is outer tower… The PoI’s in inner towers are called [Name Tower] (like Mendon Tower) and the ones on outer towers are called [Name Post] (like Ogrewatch Post). So even Anet agrees that Mendon is the same as Veloka and Ogrewatch is the same as Anzalias.

Ogrewatch can treb the inner of red keep, and Ogrewatch can be defended at nearly every angle from red keep trebs. These are two properties only inner towers share. Note that Anzalias and Mendon’s share neither of these properties.

Name aside, the ease with which OW upgrades and the ease with which it’s defended by mortars/trebs from red keep means we should treat it as an inner tower. Yes, it’s unfortunate that it can be treb’d from SM, but that shouldn’t disqualify it from being an inner tower.

Lol, this thread is giving me cancer.

Black Frog.9274:

It’s strange that you don’t extend your logic to the core point I was making. So, I’ll do it for you: just because you “can” duel in WvW, doesn’t mean you should.

What do you think the purpose of WvW is? To PPT? That’s pretty laughable. In the end, you play the game to have fun, and if dueling is fun to someone, let them be. Last I checked, pretty sure fighting enemies was a part of WvW too. Whether that fight was an arranged 1v1 or a chaotic zergfest doesn’t matter.

Black Frog.9274:

You’re taking a queue spot from someone actually committed to the purpose of WvW and you’ve got options outside of WvW for dueling. Your activity is causing misery to that person in particular and to your team as a whole.

This is incredibly wrong on so many levels. It basically reads “you’re not playing the game the way I like to play it, so you’re griefing your entire server”. Head’s up: having the highest score on Friday doesn’t do anything for you or your server — this is especially true without Seasons.

Black Frog.9274:

If we extend your logic even further and grant that all duels should never be interrupted, what if the server limit of people jumps into a map and does nothing but duel? Do you support that position? Are you in favor of a group of people wrecking WvW players’ fun by camping a map for a purpose for which it wasn’t designed?

If that many people want to duel, then that’s perfectly fine. If that many people want to duel, then you’re in the minority, and if you interrupt their duel, you’re the one “wrecking WvW players’ fun”.

Again, there’s no purpose to WvW other than to have fun. You do that however you want. Your entire complaint reminds me of that Anet dev that complained about GvG players “violating his game mode”, only to later eat his words and have a co-worker publicly apologize on his behalf.

The only problem with 6 in SA is that if you’re not brain-dead, you can reset a fight however many times you want.

That said, the game isn’t balanced around 1v1 or 1vX. Like you said, in team play, resetting over and over again or sitting in stealth really is no good.

Also, sometimes you need SA to deal with faceroll condi builds.

messiah.1908:

condition do round down and the enemies you fought with were without food as far as i notice

The tooltip rounds down because it doesn’t show 1/10 second intervals, but the condition duration itself doesn’t round down. So if you apply a 1.5 sec condition, the condition on the enemy will just show 1 sec. However, if stack two 1.5 sec conditions, it will still tick for 3 sec. Feel free to test this out.

messiah.1908:

i do agree immobilize is much needed in the p/p set but try it against warrior with food duration and howlebrak runes with the trait -33% and you will notice immobilize doesnt stack to these guys

I believe the evisc warrior I dueled in the vid was using -36% condi duration food with dogged march. The immobilize is still very good for confirming an unload, and my panic strike also immobilized his whirlwind.

Like I said, at worst, panic strike/needle trap are ~3 sec of immobilize, which is still very strong. You can stack even more condi duration with giver weapons if you really need it, but ~3 sec against hoelbrak/lemongrass/dogged march warriors is still more than enough. Against opponents without -condi duration food, the immobilize from panic strike/needle trap is borderline OP.

messiah.1908:

i am too try to find p/p useful builds but its hard if anet dont contribute to it

I think P/P is fine is in 1v1’s and viable in group play. P/P is just bad for solo roaming because it can’t self-sustain, which is what most teefs seem to want. If you play around a team or if you’re just dueling, P/P is actually not bad.

I think D/P + P/P is actually pretty solid.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Anet rarely reverts bad changes. What they usually do is make another bad change in an attempt to band-aid the first one.

In fact, I wonder if the removal of white swords was intended to be a “fix” for siege disablers.

From the dev response in the original thread:

John Corpening.9847:

Removing white swords from objectives to give defenders a stronger role in alerting their team as well as giving attackers more of a chance to get through having their siege disabled.

Paper – bridge
Reinforced – no bridge
Fortified – bridge

Doesn’t really make sense. Also, the bridge is terrible. Very easy to get stuck under it when using blinks. Been a problem for thieves, mesmers, and eles.

messiah.1908:

i played almost similar build but with smoke screen for perma blind

If it’s the build you posted here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/P-P-power-build-viable-check-this-out/first#post4492665

then we don’t play a similar build at all. In fact, they’re very different.

messiah.1908:

doesnt the 4.25 sec round down to 4 sec and also the 1.75 sec to 1 sec
and also with -66% duration on melee classes its only 0-1 sec?

so guardian/warrior/ele wont notice it at all

?!

I believe GW2 doesn’t round on condition durations. The tooltip won’t show you 1.75 seconds, but it’ll actually stay on for that long.

With hoelbrak and lemongrass, heavies get -60% duration, but you get +70% duration with my build. You could swap in giver weapons for +80% or +90% duration.

Even with dogged march (which a couple of the warriors had in my video), the immobilizes are still very significant. For example, in my duel against the eviscerate warrior, the panic strike actually immobilized his whirlwind, and in my duel against the d/d ele, panic strike immobilized his burning speed.

At worst, panic strike and needle trap are ~3 seconds of immobilize at full duration, which is still extremely powerful. Even if they cleanse the immobs, you can reapply it fairly easily.

Belzebu.3912:

I just tested tonight the build with the ricochet trait and the berzerker amulet on PvP and for me it worked really well.
Just used the sigil of generosity in the pistol instead of accuracy to help with cond cleanse and done.

If only I could afford generosity for WvW….

I’m glad this worked for you though! I’m going to try it out myself soon.

Belzebu.3912:

Yeah, that is what I was imagining, since I’m just PvPing casually, most of the times I’ll be in team fights during hot join matches, so the immob + a bit of AoE can be useful.

If you plan on playing in hotjoin and staying around mid fights, then I think this build will do just fine, especially with the abundance of immobilize it offers. You might also want to swap out bountiful theft for ricochet if you’re unsure about when to steal, since the extra aoe dps + 150 range is also very nice.

Belzebu.3912:

I know it would be sub par, but could this build work in PvP? Probably using zerker or barb amulets in place of the zerker/valk from your link.

I usually play a meta build in tPvP, so I really haven’t tried it out. I honestly think this would play very similarly to the 60206 or 26006 builds in PvP simply because you’d spend a lot of time in SB, and you’d just swap to P/P to finish off the target.

The build is pretty weak when it comes to sustain, so I’m not sure it’s a great PvP roaming build, which is the role that thieves seem to be shoehorned into. On the other hand, if you hit the immobilizes correctly, I think this build could contribute nicely to team fights. I’ll give it a shot when I have time (and hopefully get some footage out of it).

Also, the zerk amulet actually offers better stats than the WvW counterpart, just because it gives me more health. Sitting at 12k health is very painful when fighting the abundant condi builds in WvW.

Woaden.9425:

Great use of immobs! Love that this is a 6 DA build with P/P, looks fun.

edit: it is interesting that you have shadows embrace with the one access to stealth, do you notice a big survivability drop without it even still? I’ll bet you’re tempted to go 2 in to CS for +10% pistol damage!

Unfortunately, I didn’t get good footage against condi builds, but when I fight against a condi build, I often swap to hide in shadows, and I’ll sit in my refuge longer. I’ll also clusterbomb my own black powder, so I have enough access to stealth that I think shadow’s embrace is worth it. Nonetheless, the build is definitely weak against condi, but if I play aggressively, it’s still manageable.

Against non-condi builds, I do use 62006, which I find to be very strong against other thieves. For general roaming purposes, however, I stick to 60206 just in case I need shadow’s embrace.