Guild Wars 2

Charismatic Harm.9683:

Edit:

I get it….I really do. Players are upset because they want the skins from the chest and there’s no guarantee they’ll get it no matter how many keys they buy or chests they unlock.

As long as players continue to support these methods, ArenaNet will continue to put “awesome stuff” in these, or similar, chests.

Players can complain all they want, but nothing will change until ArenaNet isn’t making money using these types of business practices.

This is where i hope we differ. I actually have hope in the fact that they can come up with other ways to make money off the shop, I guess i hold out hope for them to listen and do the “right” thing.

Ursan.7846:

Pandemoniac.4739:

The problem is that I could spend millions of gold and not get that skin or anything that even comes close to being that skin. That’s why folks are upset.

Is it evil/unethical/unfair? I don’t think so. It’s just not a happy situation and I don’t think it’s irrational for folks to be disappointed or upset about it.

Basically this. This method was an incredibly stupid move by Anet. Unethical/evil? Not in the least. My only hope is that this method did terrible overall sales so that they do not do it again.

Unfortunately, at least in my case, it sold pretty kitten well. Which is most of the reason i’m on here complaining about it. That and it’s slow at work

Charismatic Harm.9683:

FourthVariety.5463:

Gambling is defined at the moment where you enter a game of chance in exchange for money.

By this statement alone, Black Lion Chests are not gambling. Black Lion Keys are purchased with Gems….not money.

Gems can be purchased with either money or in-game gold.

Since there is an exchange rate, you could say that gems have a value, which in turn translates to in game gold. Just because you gamble with chips which can be traded for money, doesn’t all the suddenly make it not gambling anymore. Not that i really care about the whole gambling argument, i’m just pointing that out.

@Charismatic

That’s why i did it anyway… I’m not arguing the gambling issue at all. Everyone of those items are purchasable by other means or have a similar item you can purchase outside of getting them from chests. I’ve actually gotten a Permanent Hair Stylist Contract from them which i promptly sold on the TP. I’m not even arguing the value of any of the items, since they actually have defined values, accept for one, the tickets for fused skins, which is how this whole thing got heated to begin with. I’m unsure why you’re quoting me when you talk about gambling and winning?

I don’t go to Vegas and gamble money, there are other ways to obtain money.

Unless it’s for a good cause, I don’t buy raffle tickets at a chance to win a car, I can simply go buy a car if that’s my goal.

I rarely play the lotto, but I do think at least some of the money is going to the schools, not enough IMHO, but at least there’s that.

Buying gems with cash i feel is also going to a good cause, but this skin thing they keep doing with these chests is simply annoying and unfair in my mind.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

I won’t comment on the comprehension/communication thing, it adds nothing.

Then don’t bring it up.

munkiman.3068:

You can’t use gambling here as a valid argument, if i buy in, i know what my odds are and the possible return on my bid.

Do you know what are the odds of a Booster Pack in Yugioh containing a rare card?

Man, those vendors were sure unethical.

Good, continue to focus on the ethics, then read the now 2 posts which i admit i went over the top including that in my argument.

In your rare card scenario, if you really want one, i bet you can buy one.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

But….but….aren’t the odds 100% that you’ll get something from the Black Lion Chest? So, you ALWAYS win. Every single time, you win. You never lose.

You may not get what YOU want….but you ALWAYS get something.

There’s actually no gambling involved at all when you win every time.

This isn’t the point at all, everyone of those items are purchasable by other means. If i want a booster pack i’ll buy one, if i want a backpack i’ll buy one, if i want dyes i’ll buy them.

Ursan.7846:

FourthVariety.5463:

Does the BLC constitute gambling as defined by German law: YES.

Does Magic: The Gathering constitute gambling as defined by German law too?

munkiman.3068:

@Syeria

I feel it only fair to respond with, i’m done with trying to give you any feedback for your arguments. Your comprehension of my statements are faulty at best.

Lol.

He broke down your posts and answered them point by point. He’s definitely reading it pretty thoroughly. If his comprehension and what you’re actually trying to say is so different that you want to make a point of it, perhaps you should work on your communication?

You sure have a right to your opinion. But it won’t change the fact that your opinion is quite silly.

Why are BLT chests unethical? Because their rewards are randomized? Do you think lotteries are unethical? Coin slot machines? Games of poker? Most card games, like Magic/Yugioh/Pokemon? Are they all unethical too for having randomized rewards?

Are they unethical for attempting to artificially inflate prices? What about Gucci, or every brand-name goods out there? Sodas companies, and their ridiculous mark-ups?

When you paint a transaction in which a consenting customer purchases a chance at a purely cosmetic/luxury product and are fully aware that the product is random as “unethical….” you end up sounding quite silly.

I won’t comment on the comprehension/communication thing, it adds nothing. I already admitted to bringing up ethics was silly in this case in a previous post.

But yes, i do think that if any of those products mentioned were only available for some random amount of money for a chance of actually getting said product, then yes i would say it was an unethical practice. Especially if it was the only one of it’s kind and was a necessity rather than a luxury. You can’t use gambling here as a valid argument, if i buy in, i know what my odds are and the possible return on my bid. Nether are the case in this situation. I put in my bid with the chests, not knowing my odds and not knowing what i would get back. Is that my bad? Absolutely. Do i have any other way to get a skin? Nope.

When you compare competing products (Gucci versus some cheaper look alike) it simply makes sense to not bring up ethics or fairness, i can buy a lesser valued, similar enough for my desires item, from someone else. There is no other option to acquire these skins, luxury item or not.

I do a guild lottery where i give away 20g for a winning number, with all proceeds going to the guild bank. I have no problem with the gambling aspect.

Nachtz.4930:

munkiman.3068:

Nachtz.4930:

Rashka.7304:

Orangensaft.7139:

Rashka.7304:

Rashka.7304:

Currently i am at 508 rares (19 exo back) and 1408 exotics, no precursor yet.

Up to 624 rares (28 exo back) and 1472 exotics, still no precursor.

both of you spent over 1400 exotics ?

thats like 3000 gold which is like 5-7 precursors depending on which one…

That is naive fallacy because you are not taking everything into account. So far my loss in gold is smaller than the cost of the precursor on TP…

Up to 700 rares (29 exo) and 1476 exotics btw. That was a bad streak of 76 rares and only 1 exo back.

As far as I have been told, the 4 weapons you have to throw in the Mystic Toilet have to have the same stats between eachothers. At least, that’s the only way it worked for me (already got 3 precursors for less than 80 gold, working on my 4th now). It has not been confirmed by any official statement, but that’s what my experience (and my guildies’) say, I may be wrong though. So in your case, what did you throw in the forge ?

This is actually statistically impossible, no matter how lucky, no one is getting 3 pre for 80g… Check your numbers again.

I actually get better exotics back for mixed stats than i do for same stats, on average. But then again i can go awhile and not see an exotic either.

31 tries for Dawn, 3 for The Chosen, and 24 for the Leaf of Kudzu. Only with the cheapest rare items.

Less than 80 gold, I had not more in my purse anyway… Keep your stats for you, luck and statistics are not made to be mixed up.

I guess you’re right, you are one lucky person.

LowestTruth.2635:

Syeria.4812:

The Blizzard one is where things really come down to it. You tried WoW for free and determined it wasn’t worth the cost to you. Now you’ve examined these skins and determined they’re not worth the cost to you. Same scenario, same determination, same circumstances, yet wildly different conclusions. It’s one or the other, either they’re both “disrespectful” or neither is, unless you can actually come up with a legitimate reason why they’re different.

The Blizzard one would only be accurate in this context if they sold a game card for fifteen bucks that could contain anything from an hour’s subscription to a free lifetime of the game.

</insert Syreia-ish insult and rage about incomprehension here>

More like some random amount of money for a chance at getting a months subscription.

@Syeria

I feel it only fair to respond with, i’m done with trying to give you any feedback for your arguments. Your comprehension of my statements are faulty at best.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Syeria.4812:

Gucci bags aren’t the only bags available but molten skins are the only skin in the entire game? Do you read what you post?

There are a lot of bags available that have the same style as a Gucci bag. If I want a Gucci bag and can’t afford the real thing, I can buy something close enough for the money I have to spend.

It’s kind of pointless to argue about price anyhow, because I could spend millions of gold on keys and still not get the skin.

Pretty much this^

All other analogies to Gucci, schooling and Blizzard don’t seem to make sense to me. I guess going about it in a round about manner is senseless as well. My apologizes.

I’m certainly willing to admit tossing around ethics is actually a bit silly in this case, it is a game after all and one i’m pretty passionate about. But sometimes you need to cross the line of silly to swing people around to compromise, it can actually almost fit in with political debates by now.

Not having a price tag however is, and you’re completely right in my view, is pretty much bad business.

Syeria.4812:

Yeah…let me stop you right there. Is Gucci “disrespectful” to their customers? They sell items like purses, frequently for hundreds of dollars, whose value as a physical item is less than $5. Are learning institutions “disrespectful” to their students? A degree is an item of “arbitrary value” and they’re charging tens of thousands of dollars for it. What about Blizzard? They’re charging $15 a month (so $150/yr going on 10 years now) just for the right to even be able to attempt to look at the items they’ve sold for $20+ in many cases.

Are you upset? I think you’re tossing around your own form of crazy at this point.

Gucci bags are not the only bags available, these skins, chests and keys are however. Not to mention the fact that Gucci bags have clearly marked costs to them. Seems like a rather silly argument over arbitrary value. What are the value of these skins?

As far as schooling goes, it’s very clear the inherent value is far more than what they charge to get a degree. Just in earnings potential alone, over the course of a lifetime. I’d say it’s a steal.

When it comes to blizzard, i tried WoW for free and yet there is no way i would find value in paying them 15 a month to play that game. That’s totally subjective of course, again really not a case for what the value is of these items being discussed are.

Pandemoniac.4739:

….
ANet has a great deal of good will built up with me, so while I’m not thrilled about this situation, I don’t believe there was malicious intent. I think they really care about their players and are passionate about making GW2 the best game it can be, so accusing them of being unethical and of trying to take advantage of their players probably cuts them pretty deep. Can we complain without assuming bad intent?

They have with me as well, I applaud them for many risks they took and benefits of playing this game brings to my life. But it really does teeter on ethics bounds when you get a stack of chest over the course of your playing time and less than 10 keys. It basically screams spend money to open me! Look at the disparity between Gold to Gem conversions (yet another thing anet can control) it too actually begs at the fact that they only logical way to get keys it to spend real cash.

Cash shops are alone a touchy subject, but i think they’ve done really well with it overall. Yet they seem to continue this practice with these chests, regardless of the ridiculous amount of complaints and debates over it. So i ask, why continue with it? Obviously, to make more money… Regardless that there are people willing to toss money at them because they made a great game with healthy options to purchase things in their shop. It stinks of an unethical practice.

Syeria.4812:

munkiman.3068:

Forget what you know about anet, i trust them to make a positive decision on the direction of the game. Yet, regardless, as a consumer do you think it’s not in my rights to protest this practice regardless that i spent the money already to purchase a chance for the product, knowing full well that i might not receive it. I’m not even complaining, i knew the risks to some extent (some random number between 0 and whatever), fine i accept it.. Does it make it a fair ethical practice? Not even remotely.

I guess what i’m saying is that even though i know the semi transparent risks ( i.e. rare chance) do you not think i have no rights as a consumer to say this isn’t ok?

If not you better reathink the rights of consumers across the globe to complain that this practice isn’t ok, regardless of past indiscretions.

We can both make comparisons all day, but i’ve invested time and money into this game, if they continue this practice, I simple cannot continue this path of destruction, aimed at my wallet. Say what you will about it, it’s not going to change the ethics or the practice by defending it.

As a consumer I have essentially two rights:

I have the right to not be overtly deceived (truth in advertising). Anet has clearly stated these are rare items that could be attained by chance. While others have tried to claim there’s some sort of deception on Anet’s part here, I think the vast majority of us can all agree those arguments fall short (at least by American standards, which I will use as an American, if I were from one of those random countries with extremely different standards, I would probably judge by those). Therefore Anet has not violated this right.

The only other right that I have in regards to Anet (as we can all agree that video games are luxury goods and not some sort of necessity) is the right to make my own purchase decisions. Anet has provided goods in a non-discriminatory manner, and therefore have not violated anyone’s rights as a consumer in this regard.

Honestly, if you actually believe the claims you’re making, I think you need to seriously rethink and reeducate yourself about the relationship between consumers and suppliers.

You might need to learn how to read then, seriously. Let’s play the American card, and rephrase that, I as an American have the right to say this practice is not ok, regardless of my past indiscretions. Better? Furthermore, I as a person have the right to contest any behavior I do not need deem as fair or ethical, of which i have multiple options in which to protest. Saying as a consumer doesn’t lower my basic rights down to 2…

As far as fair practices go, no people actually don’t have a fair shot at participating in this game of chance. Let alone the pure fact that the participants don’t even know the odds. Interestingly enough, 5 pages later, we are still on track for the original post by Mr. Smith about it being impossible (or practically impossible) to gauge the odds. But yet here we are still debating fairness…

So let’s talk fair, When was the last time you got a key as a drop? Never? When the participation in this fair event (which is still up for debate, we really have no idea how the system chooses anything) is based on a random occurrence, it’s no longer equal or fair. And please don’t bring the “make a new toon and do some personal story missions at a chance at a key as a reward” there is no way that, that is an intended practice by anet.

Let’s talk ethics. First and foremost, this is a game, everything about it is optional. Regardless, if i choose to play this game and want to participate in this random event at a chance for a reward, is it ethical to ask me to pay for it? Since that is the ONLY way to participate. The answer is a resounding no. Sure i might get lucky and get both a chest and a key sometime in the window of opportunity to participate in this event, but the odds are pretty much not stacked in my favor.

Syeria.4812:

munkiman.3068:

Ursan.7846:

If we want to talk about the DLC topic, I’d like to say for the record that I’m almost drowning in the free content that Anet has bestowed on us and has been promised to continue being provided to us in the future.

Sure, we can talk free content… Sims has tons of free content… that’s not the point at all. The hot button topic mentioned (DLC) was in the hope that people would look at it in a different light. DLC is exactly the same as in-game stores (i’m not talking about map packs, i’m talking about items for sale, advantage or cosmetic) the only REAL difference is when you purchase DLC is it get’s incorporated in your client data on download (and not even in all cases) versus it’s already in your client you just need to unlock it.

I’m totally willing to support the game for that simple fact, yes they continue to pump out “free” content, but i’m also willing to conclude, in order to do that they need to pay people a working wage to create it. I have no issue buying gems and taking advantage of sales in the store. The entire issue (even the topic of this post) is “a chance at a rare skin” for god-knows-how-much in-game gold or RW money.

I’m not going to respond to your earlier DLC comment because I am confident I’d end up derailing the thread, but suffice it to say I disagree with some of the things you take for granted as fact.

Anyway, back to what I’m quoting here:

DLC and micro-transactions are similar things, but they’re certainly very very different. To use a quick EA example, card packs in NHL 13’s HUT game mode (the card trading mode) are micro transactions. People “pay to win” or gain items or boosts to advance faster, or otherwise augment their normal gameplay. That is in a similar vein as what GW2 has, and what Black Lion chests specifically represent. However, “DLC” is typically things like additional courses in Tiger Woods, new songs in Rock Band, or extended storylines in Dragon Age 2. DLC is generally actual content that isn’t otherwise accessible, and not boosts/cosmetics/flair/etc like is found in GW2.

I think that’s a very important distinction to make when having this sort of discussion because otherwise the flaws or features of one end up being erroneously attributed to the whole, when that’s not really an accurate assessment.

Let’s except what you say is true for gw2, lets say it takes a ticket to enter arah at a chance at wining uber loot you can no other way gain besides buying a ticket. Do you accept that as the status qou? Seriously, we are talking about the same things when “winning” means lucrative loot, regardless if it gives you an advantage or not. This game is entirely based not only on BiS, but the best look in slot that’s actually x2 of any other game. Forget the addition of ascended gear, think prada versus target. It’s zero difference in the grand scheme of a GAME. It makes me think people can actually differentiate between the kitten of a look over best gear even if the advantage is minimal. What does WoW gear actually look like? Who cares it’s BiS…

Forget what you know about anet, i trust them to make a positive decision on the direction of the game. Yet, regardless, as a consumer do you think it’s not in my rights to protest this practice regardless that i spent the money already to purchase a chance for the product, knowing full well that i might not receive it. I’m not even complaining, i knew the risks to some extent (some random number between 0 and whatever), fine i accept it.. Does it make it a fair ethical practice? Not even remotely.

I guess what i’m saying is that even though i know the semi transparent risks ( i.e. rare chance) do you not think i have no rights as a consumer to say this isn’t ok?

If not you better reathink the rights of consumers across the globe to complain that this practice isn’t ok, regardless of past indiscretions.

We can both make comparisons all day, but i’ve invested time and money into this game, if they continue this practice, I simple cannot continue this path of destruction, aimed at my wallet. Say what you will about it, it’s not going to change the ethics or the practice by defending it.

Ursan.7846:

If we want to talk about the DLC topic, I’d like to say for the record that I’m almost drowning in the free content that Anet has bestowed on us and has been promised to continue being provided to us in the future.

Sure, we can talk free content… Sims has tons of free content… that’s not the point at all. The hot button topic mentioned (DLC) was in the hope that people would look at it in a different light. DLC is exactly the same as in-game stores (i’m not talking about map packs, i’m talking about items for sale, advantage or cosmetic) the only REAL difference is when you purchase DLC is it get’s incorporated in your client data on download (and not even in all cases) versus it’s already in your client you just need to unlock it.

I’m totally willing to support the game for that simple fact, yes they continue to pump out “free” content, but i’m also willing to conclude, in order to do that they need to pay people a working wage to create it. I have no issue buying gems and taking advantage of sales in the store. The entire issue (even the topic of this post) is “a chance at a rare skin” for god-knows-how-much in-game gold or RW money.

Groove.3268:

Making these skins so rare is a bit harsh, but I can’t help but laugh hearing how people are going to quit the game over it.

’I’ll spend my money on something else next time.’

Good! Thank the developers for teaching you a valuable life lesson. Anyone that spent actual money on 100 black lion keys could probably do with taking a break from Guild Wars.

On a personal note, I never spend more than i can afford on the gem shop. It’s not just people that are blowing their lunch money on in game purchases here. It’s people that know that pumping income into the company will help them succeed, not the other way around. I don’t for a second believe i SHOULD have got a skin because i opened 200 chests (although it is a bit outrageous), I’m of the mind that it’s a practice best left behind moving forward. Sell the skins or don’t, pretty much the bottom line for me.

Syeria.4812:

munkiman.3068:

You know, i was thinking about the whole EA DLC disaster and how players are tired of their excessive use of DLC to access content, but just imagine if they said “pay us 20 bucks at the chance to get this weapon” that backlash would be stellar. Pretty much what ANET is doing with these chests and all the skins are completely tied to the content they provide. If you look at it that way, wouldn’t you rather just pay the 20 bucks?

Let’s not get off on the (giant, but off-topic) topic of DLC. But one thing worth mentioning there is that the backlash against and distaste for DLC is generally grossly misplaced and simply a result of the average gamer’s ignorance of basic economics.

I’m actually trying to use it as an example, not to go down the EA DLC issue.

Arguably Guild Wars made plenty of money off boxed sales and at one time so did EA, Regardless, the feeling on it isn’t misplaced, consumers often feel duped when they have to pay for already built content that was intentionally left out of the game only to be offered as DLC later, especially when that content deals directly to the content already included in the game. Granted that not the case here, but it is the same concept.

The nay sayers to the people that might be flustered by this practice could put it in a different light assuming some game company offered a chance at an in game item for a cost. It wouldn’t be received well and this is a hot button topic all over the industry, which in this case is even worse than anything companies have been practicing in the past.

I guess i’m trying to highlight this as much as possible, I want to support anet as a company, but these kind of mistakes makes me feel less supportive. I get they are trying to work it out and am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but i won’t do it forever. I spend my disposable income in the gem shop.

Actually forget value… Go with rarity…. It’s more rare to get an upgraded item than it is to an non-upgraded item. Better?

You know, i was thinking about the whole EA DLC disaster and how players are tired of their excessive use of DLC to access content, but just imagine if they said “pay us 20 bucks at the chance to get this weapon” that backlash would be stellar. Pretty much what ANET is doing with these chests and all the skins are completely tied to the content they provide. If you look at it that way, wouldn’t you rather just pay the 20 bucks?

DryHumour.1307:

I personally like the idea of PvE versions of the WvWvW maps which awards no PvP benefits whatsoever (badges, blueprints). This would keep non-contributing PvE players from taking up slots on map and in queue while freeing up space for more dedicated WvWvW players. The PvE players can take their time and enjoy the art, content, JPs at their leisure while WvWvW players never need set eyes on them. Since badges aren’t awarded, you’d still need to do WvWvW to complete a Legendary (and in a pinch, completion of the PvE map versions could simply not award Gifts).

This also makes sense for people wanting to warm up to WvW, it gives them some time to study the map and maybe even learn a little bit about strategy and mechanics. I think it might even make some of the less competitive servers attract more of the player base to actually play in battle.

I’m on NSP and we are far from winning. However, our guild does manage to capture places that are required for completion. With fairly equal matching between servers, it might be tough, but it’s hardly impossible. It does however seem like a strictly PVE based thing, so theres that whole question as to why it’s even a part of WvW. But, concidering you can use all the pve stuff there, there are AI Baddies and pre-cursors drop there as well, i guess you can technically call it PVE content.

Ursan.7846:

Nike.2631:

Or maybe the nuance “your behaviors are not automatically reflected into the larger populace” escapes you. Could go either way on that one.

Do you know understand why people rarely farm SB SPECIFICALLY for Final Rest?

Because there’s another option of obtaining it: through the TP. It is much more efficient to farm the gold and buy it outright from the TP than doing the Behemoth once a day for god knows how long. And because of the huge difference in efficiency, it’s pretty safe to assume people don’t see SB RNG as the sole method of obtaining Final Rest.

Yup, the final rest thing was an anomaly for sure, since i can pretty much guarantee between the event being bugged and the drop chance being close to zero, it actually became that weapon of legend. Sure some people farm boss chests for specific items, but overall i would venture to guess it makes sense to do these bosses for the G over what it actually takes to get them as loot.

@Pan MF only affects drops off monsters, chest loot is just whatever the chance is.

I’ve mentioned this in another thread and i’ve done a search to try to pinpoint a topic, but it seems to me the forge is supposed to kick back an item of equal or greater value. Well wouldn’t that mean if i putting a sigil’d weapon into the forge, i’d get at least a sigil’d one back? Wouldn’t that be considered equal or greater? If so, it’s not and it’s actually pretty annoying.

Ursan.7846:

Because rarely do people farm bosses with an specific goal in mind.

When I farm X boss, I’m not doing it with the goal of obtaining Y skin. I just want loot. Any generic loot keeps me happy, because I’m more concerned about obtaining overall wealth, instead of a specific item.

BLT chests are aggravating because you want to get something very specific. And you are forced to go with the RNG option to obtain it, not even through the less-RNG method of TP (Like Halloween/Lost Shores/Wintersday. WTF ANET?)

It’s stupid. But I don’t blame them, because there’s a ton of anecdotal evidence in this forum alone that people are paying for it.

Yeah that is another good point really. I don’t know anyone with any expectations when it comes to boss chests, sure it be nice to get a pre, but the bottom line is i’m doing it to earn G toward getting the stuff i want down the road.

I have spent a lot on keys, but i’m using every single item i get (beyond a few boosters). When i hit a dungeon i’m boosted, well fed and potioned up, mine as well since i spent so much to get em. There is (or was) a chance to get a perma banker and a couple other items that aren’t account bound out of those chests too. A perma banker is worth a pretty penny on the TP.

Arguably, no one needs to do anything… People want to play this game and they are going to want/expect certain things. Actually need doesn’t come into play with any game, period. Need is a term of convenience, it’s often supplemented for want with a sense of seriousness to a situation, like survival. Seems silly to call out needs versus wants, since so many people use them interchangeably.

This method makes them even more rare, actually. A rare drop from a boss chest will still drop for more people and be able to be sold on the TP. I don’t know of any soul bound items that drop from boss chest (unless you include ones with runes only available for dungeon tokens, like monk runes). Not everyone can buy keys (or wants to), but everyone can farm boss chests, freely. The playing the game part is the difference really versus sticking coins in a slot for the big prize. I’d personally rather play the game.

Our guild does COF p1 runs and i hadn’t done one in ages. We completed it in 8 minutes and i was on a d/d ele with a mes, 2 wars and a necro. I think only one war was in zerker and we did have to reset at the alters. Seems horrible to think you’d get the kick for anything remotely close to what you said even happened. I think the only time I’ve ever seen anyone kicked is when they went offline for over 5 minutes (we assumed they had connection issues).

Yes, that does seem rather unlikely… Even crude kits will give you the occasional ecto off a rare. Maybe they just vendor everything?

^this^

Which doesn’t change the fact that no matter how many people complain about the mechanic and thinks it’s a poor one, they continue to use it. Which basically tells me that it’s a big seller and it caters to a poor population of gamers wanting to win it big. In this case, getting one of those skins won’t do anything for your wallet anyway. It’s sad really.

Pandemoniac.4739:

munkiman.3068:

Pandemoniac.4739:

It’s entirely possible very likely you could invest that capital in several other ventures with less risk and more upside.

Not really, the stock was out a week before. I can’t really say if it was an intentional buyout or what, but in this particular case, the risk was minimal. You won’t earn 65g on one item in a day under very many conditions. The most i turned in a day was around 27g, which is mere pittance to people with the money to buy enough precursors to risk the minimal 45g loss

Well if someone saw the opportunity and jumped on it, good for them. This isn’t a normal situation that you can take advantage of regularly. Folks who have enough capital to tie up hundreds of gold to make 65G didn’t make it by betting hardways every time.

The data suggests that there were 4 or 5 items moved at that 700g price point, even at the initial 45g loss, a person could easily stand to make a very large profit assuming they bought low (in the 400-500 range) and moved them once the supply of the item took a hit. So yes, good for them, if it was actually the case in this situation.

I apologize if it’s not clear, i actually am not flip-flopping. There is an inherent value to artificially increasing the sale item on anything, even if it’s temporary. As you can see the prices plummeted and if the person doing the manipulation (and your right this is all assumed since i wasn’t that person and the data is far more vague than desired) did’nt act fast enough the loss would be substantial. I can’t simply assume the market (especially for pres) isn’t being somewhat manipulated by those that have the wealth to do so. I’m offering the basic concept behind inflating the market temporarily for personal gains, there are other ways of course.

Pandemoniac.4739:

munkiman.3068:

When people see an item sold for 900g (regardless if it is a pulled price (remember there is limited data available here) they will push up the price of buy orders, it’s pretty simple. I can’t help you with the math.

Yes this is true, but what you aren’t taking into consideration is that arranging for there to be a gap is difficult and requires exactly the right conditions at exactly the right time to make enough of a profit on the money it takes to make it happen to make it worthwhile.

It’s entirely possible very likely you could invest that capital in several other ventures with less risk and more upside.

Not really, the stock was out a week before. I can’t really say if it was an intentional buyout or what, but in this particular case, the risk was minimal. You won’t earn 65g on one item in a day under very many conditions. The most i turned in a day was around 27g, which is mere pittance to people with the money to buy enough precursors to risk the minimal 45g loss

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

When people see an item sold for 900g (regardless if it is a pulled price (remember there is limited data available here) they will push up the price of buy orders, it’s pretty simple. I can’t help you with the math.

Whoooooooooooooooooooosh.

That is the sound of you completely missing my point.

My point is pretty simple too (If you post a 900G sell listing, most people won’t see it unless it’s the lowest sell listing, something which you cannot completely control) and has nothing to do with math. But you either struggle to comprehend it, or misrepresenting my point purposefully. Why?

They will when there are only 2 items listed (as there was in this specific case). The sell offer only works with high priced low volume offers.

When people see an item sold for 900g (regardless if it is a pulled price (remember there is limited data available here) they will push up the price of buy orders, it’s pretty simple. I can’t help you with the math.

It’s actually less risky than putting in high buy orders on high volume items but it works that way too. By simply establishing a gap in price to reestablish market value you created wealth for your stock (albeit in a very short window) that you can easily profit from your initial loss. This is a trading 101 that happens all the time with reproducible results. It’s how to manipulate the market in your favor by acting quickly against peoples reactions. In the case mentioned, above, slower moving higher priced items won’t roll for at least a day, giving you a larger window of opportunity. Trust me, if someone thinks they can buy an item @ 700 and resell @ 900, they’ll do it in a heartbeat. That’s a fairly quick 65g for doing nothing.

Very rarely there are opportunities to actually profit by readjusting the price buying up ALL the stock of an item, even if you have the money, simply since there is such a big gap between the lowest selling item and the highest. Buying out stock is the least risk, however the higher volume items will ultimately bit you in the kitten, since you simply can’t keep up with the sell offers.

Look at the chart on spidy, look how the buy offers went up 100g simply because one person listed one for 900g. Then see how magically the item either sold for 900g (unlikely) or got pulled and resold at 700g which was 100g more than the original buy offer. You can do it on lower selling items too, you just have to be quick about it. If that person bought stock (say 4, which is what the data suggests) when the prices were in the 400g range not even a month before, they just made 300g per weapon just by artificially inflating the market for a short time. This also has the effect of people thinking they got a great deal when in fact they paid more for it then it ever was priced at.

You buy out the lower buy listings over time, once you have 3 or 4 you put one up at like that 900g sell offer for the hunter in the OP. You wait till you get 4 buy offers in or around the price that at least breaks even the cost of pulling the listing fee and sell off the to the buy orders that are (in this case) 100g more than before you listed the 900g offer. You’re basically inflating the buy offers, so you lose the listing fee, big deal you just got 400g more than if you hadn’t done it in the first place.

That’s why there are a few people that blow up the sell price, you only need a few buyers placing higher buy orders to ditch the rest of your stock, then pull the sell order off and sell that at buy list too. That’s why you’ll see stuff like that 900G sell offer that lasted a few hours till the buy orders caught up enough to sell off the stock at those orders which were 100g more than before the one 900g item went up in the first place. It’s actually not nearly as risky then trying to just inflate the price by leaving it in @ break even.

Hmm, i must have not gone down when i used oils. I never really noticed that they dropped. I know food doesn’t for sure, what about stones?

Better off making oils with a huntsman… Stacks with foods too.

I’ve done 3 Vision of the Mists that have netted me about 20g in profit. It works in many cases if you can get the buy orders filled on things like ecto and ori.

Ursan.7846:

“Manipulate” is such a vague term. What do you think is happening exactly? And why is it “manipulated badly?” Because you think it’s happening very frequently?

From your OP, I’m assuming you mean people are buying up all the sell listings and re-pricing them? It’s been discussed how incredibly difficult it is to profit from it due to 1. the 15% tax and 2. significant volume of precursor transactions.

This is something i’ve seen done in the past, which is why prices fluctuate wildly in some cases. It’s not something that sticks because you have buy orders setting the market down quickly. It works well on these short orders since they don’t move the volume. It actually only hurts a couple people that are not paying attention to the market and just placing buy orders.

Looks like someone tried to push the buy order prices up and succeeded for a day and sold off a couple for 100g more. The prices will always show the highest sell order and that person only took a listing fee hit, still making him/her a good return. When you put in a ridiculous price in the sell orders the people that don’t pay attention to the market shove up the buy listings, but then they settle pretty quickly.

Buyers don’t pay. If you cancel a buy order you get your money back.

This is and has been my main gripe about this game. It’s creating this traders market (which can be good, if the player base can support it), but in the long run you will continue to see the uber rich and the uber poor. Considering this is a game that people can quit playing, it’s not very good for business in the long term. The average player makes nothing in this game and with the TP in place, they see just how little they can afford. In GW it wasn’t nearly as noticeable and make “a living” was second hand to actually playing the game. That’s where GW2 needs to be and it needs to get there fast. The “we need to make the game more rewarding for players” better be on the top priority of their list of things to do, otherwise a bleeding will happen from the people that are actually willing to throw money at them.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

Astral Projections.7320:

What about this as an analogy? I have a house (a game) that you can come inside of (log onto) and play. While you are in my house, you may play with the items in there, but I retain ownership at all times. One day I get some nice new items which I put inside some boxes and say, you pay me money for keys to open up these boxes. If the box has the item then while you are in my house you may play with it. I however, still retain ownership of the items.

Is this gambling? Since ownership never transferred, I would have to say no.

You can’t start using logical comparisons and analogies on the forums. Peoples heads will start to explode.

This is also the way to lose players, which is also going to lose revenue in the long term. The games that succeed with this transaction system clearly offer players these in game items at a cost, not on a chance at an item. I’m actually not kitten about not receiving my item since i pretty much figured the risk was that i wouldn’t, but I can also say I won’t continue this method. Arguably this is worse than gambling since the real world value is nil. Sadly if Anet continues this trend, I’ll be forced to quit as i simply cannot in good conscious continue to support it. Not only do they keep the player base poor, they offer things that cater to that base, they are in the short term successfully creating a wealth treadmill over a gear one.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

munkiman.3068:

Just FYI, proceeding the karka event, the price of dusk plummeted 200g the next day. Proving that increasing the drop rate will make the prices for pres go down significantly.

The reason for this was because the entire supply was created at exactly the same time. So, what we saw was the market being flooded with precursors and everyone trying to sell theirs, and to do that, they were undercutting each other.

When looking at the price of Dusk around the time of the Lost Shores event, we can see the price at its highest (~410g) a few days before the event ended. During the final days of the event, prices began to plummet due to speculation of the final event chest rewarding precursors. On the 18th of November, when the event ended, prices fell continuously until the 21st when they bottomed out….falling to around 240g. It was only a temporary drop in price though as VERY soon after that, price began climbing again. They climbed steadily since then to the point we see them at now.

The factors involved during and after that event are more than just supply and demand. There was speculation and panic as well. The supply was increased an extraordinary amount with the implementation of that final even chest. Keep in mind there were also technical problems during the final event where many people were disconnected or didn’t get their loot. There were also players that were double dipping into the chest and getting multiple precursors by logging in with multiple characters. SO many factors contributed to the sudden drop in price….it’s difficult to pinpoint whether it was solely the increase in supply, or if the panic, speculation, and players “just wanting to get paid” had anything to do with it.

I understood the reason(s) behind the drop, I was just going off where you said there wouldn’t be a significant price drop if supply suddenly went up. I wholeheartedly believe we will see an increase in chance to get them. People that are going for them, working toward the goal of achieving a legendary, should be getting them at a fairly reasonable pace, unlike how it is now. Yet another person picked one up this weekend (zap) at the end of arah p3. Not suggesting the rate has been increased any, just that it was surprising to see one drop.

Just FYI, proceeding the karka event, the price of dusk plummeted 200g the next day. Proving that increasing the drop rate will make the prices for pres go down significantly.

I don’t however support the argument that anet sets any of the TP prices. There are plenty of rare items on the TP that simply sell for next to nothing, but that’s due to the fact that no one wants them. Much of the prices we see are pretty close to being in line with what it cost to fabricate the item +15%. Then there is demand which will take those higher wanted items and push them past that base number. Right now all precursors are pretty much created equally in drop chance.