Guild Wars 2

Impact.2780:

It’s not that bunker mesmer is overpowered, it’s that it is game breaking. As a support, it has only a few windows inbetween blocks, dodges, skill-evades, and invulnerabilities in which it can be hit, meanwhile it can be supported in turn by its allies, and hit you. It can extend those evades and invulnerabilities to its allies, heal its allies, heal itself, cleanse a lot of condis for itself, is mobile, and can cleanse some condis for allies, in addition to supplying a lot of alacrity and quickness. Its weakness is being able to support its team with condi cleanse, which was where necros and mallyx revenants came in. Until, people realised mallyx didn’t need much condi cleanse support because it had a lot of resistance. Because both builds – mallyx revenant and bunker mesmer – are mobile and have both offensive and defensive support and utility, they didn’t need to have any lackings made up for by any other class or role, allowing them to simply stack twice. Now the team has two of each of these things with no weaknesses. Still, there’s a 5th slot… Swap the revenant’s glint to shiro giving them more self-survivability and mobility, and take a tempest as the 5th to maintain that boon support and boom.

None of these builds are overpowered alone, but they are collectively.

Very good analysis, though I will add that tempest holds the cheese sauce together quite well since it can be built to have a lot of AoE cleanse with soldier runes and cleansing water with shouts. As if the infinite protection wasn’t good enough.

I think a few core builds are viable, but more as a niche thing taken as a countermeaure for something stronger than it, rather than actually being strong and worth taking on its own in every situation.

For example. Cele necromancer>Cele reaper as long as condi revs and bunker mesmers continue to dominate the ladder. Simply put, cele reaper can’t afford to take both curses and spite at the same time to maximize boon corruption, because you’re bound into soul reaping for unblockable marks, life force, and vital persistance.

With traited dark path (which is unblockable mind you) you can condi bomb chronomancers and mallyrevs through their shield and apply enough pressure to actually be able to kill them 1v1. In every other situation though, you’ll be sad that you don’t have reaper because necromancer is really kinda meh without stability and cleave.

As for some other quick builds that I can think of, I’d say that earth D/D ele and cele staff ele can perform fairly well, but are outclassed by tempest versions of the same build just to have more bunkering ability.

Thief is only a little bit better with daredevil imo, and warrior/berserker I can’t really comment on since both are unfortunately mediocre. But I wouldn’t even think about playing ranger, engi, mesmer, revenant, or guardian without their elite specs.

tl;dr- some base class builds have situational niche counterpick strengths or merely perform the same role but better with an elite spec, or are completely dependent on their elite spec.

Serious Thought.5394:

nearlight.3064:

That’s how playing necro or Mesmer felt before June. Don’t let it bother you.

Kidding right? I’ve been successful on Necro since Dhuumfire. Mesmer was just fine prepatch as well- blink mirror blade wasn’t a secret art. The one you are looking for was Ranger.

Regarding old school shatter Mesmer: the thief matchup, as well as dps warrior/guardian matchup made Mesmer a liability unless you were the king of portals.

Regarding necromancer: warrior hardcounter was also pretty rough and the condi builds were pushed out of the meta by shoutbow and others, leaving you with a 3rd rate zerker build that relied on autoattacks and passive procs boosted 50% by downstate and lich form to do anything.

The trait rework helped them so much.

base necromancer with cele has a better time against bunk mesmers due to trait synergies. You’re too starved for utilities to make it work on reaper imo, since if you take signet heal you need locust to actually have good healing since vamp isn’t very good sustain. And plague signet is needed to not die to conditions and wurm or armor is needed for general sustain.

I’ll try it out though, since I usually don’t run untraited CB.

Niekas.3854:

Often, even if soloq, playing a stability/tank bot to execute downed enemies is the way to play, and if there is no one who can execute, that is often a loss. Bunker mesmer is strong against direct damage, yet dies in seconds to condi pressure from 2 guys focusing it, especially on a small node. Everything has its counters, next weeks ESL matches you will mark my words.

Hmm then how come with all the condi revs running around, they still don’t have a problem?

I’ll give you a hint: it’s a soldier runes using class with infinite protection that’s literally brought to spam condi cleanse.

We have to consider the synergies that are modifying the effect of a bunker’s effectiveness in the meta.

I saw a dev in the mists last night and he said that they have been reading everything and acknowledged that they know there are problems but that as usual they can’t say anything because they don’t want to get people’s hopes up. He also told the Warriors and thieves to hang in there!

That’s how playing necro or Mesmer felt before June. Don’t let it bother you.

To be more constructive I’d probably run celestial so that incendiary ammo and napalm can see some use. It’d probably be similar burn uptime to no-FT kit with incendiary powder.

As for runes durability runes are overpowered so those are your best bet. Plus they also extend the duration of stability/protection etc. and their extra tankiness means you’re not as hurt by not running rapid regen. Maybe consider running backpack regen if you spend a lot of time in FT kit.

Chaith.8256:

SteepledHat.1345:

Chaith.8256:

Velimere.7685:

I’m still mad at you for stealing Morrigan from me in Dragon Age: Origins, but how would you propose to achieve such results? I agree with you, but I can’t see how it’d be done.

Come again? Haha.

But uh, yeah, I have a few personal survivability / bunkering reductions to target Bunker Chronomancers only.

• Well of Precognition becoming Distortion instead of Blur. This puts it in the invulnerability category, but reducing some counterplay such as warding effects, shocking auras.
• Temporal Enchanter (resistance and super speed) changed to only affect nearby allies.
• Mender’s Purity – 10 second ICD on Power Cleanse, like other ‘on heal’ minors.

In addition I find Countless’ suggestion on Chaotic Dampening I think is very reasonable.

Reducing the Bunker Mesmer’s personal 1vX survival back down to Earth while keeping their amazing utility and support throughout all game modes would be the best balance measure decision.

You really think it’d still see use after that. >.> I don’t care who you play for, the precog change alone would put it on the back burner. Perhaps that’s how your team would like it?

The Meta EU Wellmancer would be absolutely untouched by my suggestions, besides the capture point contribution removed on Precog. Good players could work around that too, by not covering the entire point with it in teamwork situations. This has been suggested a million times, bro.

Meanwhile, a 3 second precog invuln would not even fully decap a point even if the Mesmer was holding it 1v3, it’d still have a tick or two left.

What my changes would do is quite hurt the Sentinels Amulet, Mantra Heal, resistance stacking, meat shield variation.

There are more balance changes that need to go in as well (diabolic Inferno fix), amongst others. This is just a thread about Mesmers.

Also, predictable argument about having a self interest in Mesmers getting nerfed. One that assumes we don’t have the ability or plans to use them ourselves. You’re wrong on both counts. We’ll use them as well!

Maybe the utter shock of the abjured being forced to conform and every pro league team comp being the same will force the devs to hotfix the matter.

One can only dream.

Marauder durability because the meta hive mind dictates all choices in life, and if you don’t conform you don’t exist.

This reminds me last summer when I eloquently compared Fire Grab to Eviscerate when people were discussing the adrenaline mechanic changes.

SteepledHat.1345:

Read the ignorance; it’s like they don’t even play mesmer.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/How-To-Nerf-Bunker-Mesmer/page/2#post5841814

I don’t see how anyone could not see that this build needs to get nerfed. Its just a combination of insane support and utility and extremely long time to kill that gives a team with one a huge advantage over one that doesn’t one.

Fay.2357:

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Fay.2357:

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Every time I read a Countless thread, I just imagine a Ferrari at a stop light. And all these kids pull up in their turbo swapped Honda Civics like we going to beat you. And then Countless just go half throttle and put bus lengths on them.

The knowledge barrier be like that.

You clearly haven’t been in many countless threads then. He’s running roughly 50/50 on suggestions. Half the time it’s sensible stuff, and the other half of the time it’s so far off the deep end you’d swear it was two different people posting. This thread is an example of the latter.

I have known Countless for 3 years now and I have had many mesmer state discussions with him. I have seen first hand his knowledge and ability. And I know he knows what is very strong in the builds. He had the bunker mesmer build thought up back in HoT bw2 I believe, which ever event had the mesmer spec.

Regardless of whether or not it comes across in the thread, he knows some stuffs.

Bunker chrono popped into existence in BWE3: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Build-Full-Bunker-Chrono/first#post5707579

Anyway, these suggestions would certainly reduce (read:neuter) the effectiveness of bunker chrono. Depending on who you ask, this is either a good or bad thing. The problem with these suggestions is that they were clearly made with an insanely myopic focus on chrono bunker in PvP, to the exclusion of all else. Other things these changes would do include:

• Remove Mesmer from the raid meta in PvE while simultaneously increasing the difficulty of the raids to monstrous levels.
• Drastically nerf the already questionable capabilities of Mesmer in WvW
• Nip in the bud any possibility of non-chronobunker Mesmer builds having any relevance in PvP

Mesmer would go back to being an afterthought of a class in every game mode if these were executed, and I’m quite honestly astonished that Countless has produced such an impressively bad set of changes for review.

Actually I remember perusing his YouTube channel before any of the betas and he had shown a build idea for a bunker support build in between the June trait revamp and the first beta.

But the concept of creation is sort of lost here. Helseth would say he created bunker Mesmer because he was the first person to use it in an actual tournament, so it doesn’t really matter because helseth is the reason that everyone is flavor of the monthing this kitten, not you or countless because you just talked about it, but ultimately just sat there and played it at a casual level.

And if bunker mes was nerfed maybe the devs could look at giving shatter Mesmer some of its strengths back, like the mirror blade bounce for instance, since they’ve done similar things with necro scepter- added damage back to it after nerfs long ago since people stopped using it.

Do any of you have power or hybrid gyro builds? I’ve realized now that I hate pistols.

@Key/Pyro Spear of Justice is a seperate skill from the pull which is Hunter’s Verdict, and the tooltip for hunter’s verdict doesn’t indicate that its unblockable.

But then again tempest air warhorn 4 has an unblockable tooltip but isn’t actually unblockable, and neither is blast gyro, so yeah.

Silverkey.2078:

nearlight.3064:

Silverkey.2078:

I actually wonder if “nothing can save you” is not the ultimate counter to bunker mesmer. Boon corruption, vulnerability and unblockable… sounds good to me

I think in general, reaper should be the best counter to the current meta (condi rev+bunker chrono). They both rely on boons (in particular resistance, stability and protection) and are otherwise weak to condis and definitely damaged by chill.

Sad part is that necro’s survivability is so low that they have to be babysitted during the whole game. I feel like “focus the necro” is even more actual than before, simply because everything else in the meta is near-unkillable.

I thought of this idea too. It’d work if that shout applied the effect to allies as well. As of now it’s an okay skill for sure, but it’s hard to slot it when things like signets, wurm, armor, and rise all take general priority for more general scenarios.

Well I am playing bunker chrono (shame on me I know) with my gf on reaper. And like everybody, we usually have trouble against some comps in particular bunker chrono and condi rev, so I tried to optimize everything to alleviate that problem. Currently, the idea is that I am fully devoted to keeping her alive (how romantic), so she does not use that many defensive tools, but she destroys people for me :p
So far she had 3 signets + corrupt boon, but we will try with NCSY instead of corrupt boon.

I strongly agree with you that group unblockable would have been great, giving a very unique role to reaper, very complementary to the usual boon corruption role. But still, considering the amount of damage reaper can give, this is already a good start.

Myself on chrono, I use a variant including null field, which also helps in the boon hate (while also reducing my condition weakness)

Couples that strip boons together, stay together :p

Crinn.7864:

Why is it that people immediately jump to calling for things to deleted?

Seriously this game’s meta is too unstable for such drastic changes to be justifiable.

Because its unhealthy for the game’s build diversity.

On nearly every build I try to make I end up taking durability runes because they are by far the best rune for almost every build in the game unless you want to cleanse people with shouts. If you make any boons at all you’re practically gimping yourself by not running it.

Darwec.3784:

Im sorry, how is master of corruption bad? And how are people not taking curses for condi builds? I don’t understand at all, I was under the impression that corruptions and a condi build taking curses and reaper and a third line results in the highest dps condi necro build? The conditions you gain and can transfer off from master of corruption is still added dps, lingering curses is obvious, increased crit chance and 50% fury uptime from the minors…Curses seems pretty ok as a condi based trait line?

On the flip side, soul reaping is terrible for condi builds, it provides nothing except for dhuumfire which is objectively worse dps than scepter/dagger. So…no i dont think the trait, or soul reaping, is at all a requirement for every necromancer build. It only works well for builds that require deathshroud?

Without soul marks a condi build won’t be in shroud long enough to make adequate use of things like path of corruption even because scepter and untraited staff life force is deplorably bad. I do agree that master of corruption is viable in a wanderer’s build for sure, but it’s higher risk/higher reward, and spite simply gives us more sustained pressure through might and vuln and survivability, making it lower risk, slightly lower reward. A lot of necros are starting to use durability runes with spite and wanderer’s or celestial to survive better while still being able to stack might.

Soul reaping is pretty mandatory at higher tier pvp, but vital persistence is only prt of the equation.

I’m starting to feel more forced into it for soul marks than anything else because it’s a significant source of life force. I was trying to make spite/curses reaper work to maximize boon corruption to kill revs and bunker chronos, but without soul marks, condi builds have very poor life force generation. And since it makes your marks unblockable it allows you to maintain pressure and interior through their block spam.

Vital persistence is part of the equation, since it does let you get off more skills in shroud before you go back to being vulnerable, but I’d say that soul marks overall feels more integral to most builds I play than vital persistence, although it certainly helps.

This is also why I might go back to base necromancer spite curses SR builds, just to be able to counter revs and bunker mesmers better since reaper doesn’t bring enough boon rip even if deathly chill and reaper shroud are great.

We need to nerf the overused, over played, flavor of the month stuff, not buff everything else to provide new flavors of the month when the old flavors of the month get nerfed.

Silverkey.2078:

Rym.1469:

I’m currently testing MoC + Nothing Can Save You! when I face 2 or more Revenants on the other team. Consume Conditions is by far the best heal in this meta if you don’t go for SoV utility. Shout works surprisingly well against Revenants, Dragonhunters, even Chrono Bunkers.

I actually wonder if “nothing can save you” is not the ultimate counter to bunker mesmer. Boon corruption, vulnerability and unblockable… sounds good to me

I think in general, reaper should be the best counter to the current meta (condi rev+bunker chrono). They both rely on boons (in particular resistance, stability and protection) and are otherwise weak to condis and definitely damaged by chill.

Sad part is that necro’s survivability is so low that they have to be babysitted during the whole game. I feel like “focus the necro” is even more actual than before, simply because everything else in the meta is near-unkillable.

I thought of this idea too. It’d work if that shout applied the effect to allies as well. As of now it’s an okay skill for sure, but it’s hard to slot it when things like signets, wurm, armor, and rise all take general priority for more general scenarios.

Well in my opinion if you take rifle instead of hammer, you’re forced to take nades and explosives traits to have enough cleave, which just isn’t a tradoff I’d be willing to make.

Mostly because nades give you carpal tunnel and explosives GM traits suck without mortar.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i have a rather unusual experience just now.

after being fed up with the pip gains up and down, i took out my warrior and bring her for some ranked arena matches. all loses, however, the pips went up.

in the last match, the other team was leading a lot, say 400 – 200

then they stop capping, they let us have sides, 2 cap. then they started zerging in mid and let us kill.

when we scored at least 400, then they ended the match. i got +1 pip for that loses, now i’m at emerald 8/25 again.

they are a 4 man guild group plus 1 pug.
kinda nice of them to let us have 400 team score.

they let us had 400 team score

At this point I’m envisioning the leads at the company taking the month of December off and in their private yachts or lodges enjoying the holidays and giving a rats kitten about their product.

Oh please. You think any of the devs make enough money to buy a yacht?

Silverkey.2078:

nearlight.3064:

Silverkey.2078:

Chrono bunker has counters. For example, I think the mass of unblockable CC of a DH is a massive pain, completely negating our defensive rotations. Problem: DH was pushed out of the meta (by tempests in particular). But they may come back if people realize how strong they are against bunker mesmer. Maybe even without LB (good old medi-guard but with traps and improved virtues).

I think chrono needs nerfs, but so do all elite specs. And the mistake would be to nerf core stuff like many mention (when did blurred frenzy make core mesmer bunker OP?). My suggestions would be:

• shield block to 1.5 or 1.75s. This would make it on par with other block skills
• precog to 60s CD but still a blur (may not be needed)
• alacrity on shatter moved to a major trait. I know many disagreed with that, but the chrono line already has strong minors (F5, walking speed), this one is just over the top.
• alacrity becomes a boon: not necessarily a nerf, since it also means it is affected by boon duration and boonshare. But at least, it allows some counterplay (boonrip).

Overall minor cuts, but should balance things somewhat without destroying anything.

If the chrono has stability, then the DH trap, of which usually only one is taken, won’t be able to interrupt through the block.

There is not only the trap, there is also the pull (F1) which even goes through evades, and the knockback (traited). And a DH can use more than one trap, even if many tend not to. Chrono does not have that much stability, in general only one stack at a given time. I am not the best player for sure, but I know DH is the profession I fear the most, and it’s not because of the test of faith damage. When there is one DH (or more) in the battle, I feel like a puppet moved around the point against my will.

The spear of justice is unblockable but I’m pretty sure verdict isn’t.

Most dragonhunter a shouldn’t take more than test of faith. How do you expect them to survive against the hordes of mallyrevs without contemplation of purity?

And being able to use deflecting shot with a difficult to keep track passive prock-back only works when the stars align.

It’s okay, an LB Druid knocked me into the insides of the wall last night with the extra dimensional point blank shot. Good thing they weren’t good enough to capitalize on the brief 4v5 they created when I had to relog.

Silverkey.2078:

Chrono bunker has counters. For example, I think the mass of unblockable CC of a DH is a massive pain, completely negating our defensive rotations. Problem: DH was pushed out of the meta (by tempests in particular). But they may come back if people realize how strong they are against bunker mesmer. Maybe even without LB (good old medi-guard but with traps and improved virtues).

I think chrono needs nerfs, but so do all elite specs. And the mistake would be to nerf core stuff like many mention (when did blurred frenzy make core mesmer bunker OP?). My suggestions would be:

• shield block to 1.5 or 1.75s. This would make it on par with other block skills
• precog to 60s CD but still a blur (may not be needed)
• alacrity on shatter moved to a major trait. I know many disagreed with that, but the chrono line already has strong minors (F5, walking speed), this one is just over the top.
• alacrity becomes a boon: not necessarily a nerf, since it also means it is affected by boon duration and boonshare. But at least, it allows some counterplay (boonrip).

Overall minor cuts, but should balance things somewhat without destroying anything.

If the chrono has stability, then the DH trap, of which usually only one is taken, won’t be able to interrupt through the block.

messiah.1908:

i disagree to nerf as i dont believe it will solve the problem
if they nerf in some way the bunker mesmer to the point he wont be viable any more no team will take it and look for other bunker build like guard or ele or ranger who can res quick with mercy runes and support with cleanse and boons
if they nerf the rev the same result and we may see more necros

so than what nerf all condi builds (remember mtd nerf – no condi mesmer even in hotjoin any more from just 1 torment stack removed)

anet needs to think how to create and push team to play tactically

i agree for little adjustment here and there but careful from full nerf

also restrict 1 class wont solve the problem as we may see 1 bunker mesmer and 1 bunker guard or ele , 1 viper rev, 1 cele/carrion necro 1 marauder engi

maybe this idea

if one team does equally fight nothing gain in points
if it does unbalance fight 1v2 for example and manage to down the 1 than they get 2 points instead of 5
if they do 1v3 and manage to down the 1 they will get 1 point
put it on time like after 10 seconds . so now team will need to count and move away if they want to get more points. and build for more power to be able to down enemies under 10 sec

just and idea concept

If they take mercy runes they won’t have durability runes. Oh no, necro being viable again? How awful. Let’s just not nerf bunker Mesmer because build and class diversity in gw2 is clearly something that none of us want. I’m pretty sure you’re the only one who isn’t appalled by how cheesey bunker mes is because you play it yourself, not against the seemingly endless amount of them match after match.

It’s the circle of nerf. It tried to keep the flavors of the month in balance, but ultimately fails because we don’t glance enough.

The EU tempest meta has shifted towards staff tempest. I mean who needs obsidian flesh when chronocancer bunkers and infuse light Rez procs will instantly Rez you in the unlikely chance you even go down?

Chaith.8256:

nearlight.3064:

Dirame.8521:

I usually play what I think counters the meta and on very few instances does that include Engies.
In this meta, the only thing I see influencing a match apart from the current famous Engie build is a decaper engie with the ability to throw out unblockable CC.
There’s going to be a severe reduction in Necros the higher you go as well so you don’t have to worry about crazy condi pressure that much ‘cos even though Revs are crazy condi applicants, they still don’t apply as much as Necros in a single burst. So with the right timing, you could recap a bunker mesmer or Revenant whilst keeping yourself alive.

so…. unblockable as in blast gyro?

It’s only the tag that’s unblockable, the blast gyro itself is incredibly avoidable, blocks too.

That’s lame. I randomly messed around with it last night and it felt hit or miss.

The tempest warhorn air skill cyclone is also supposed to be unblockable but doesn’t actually work.

I hate that all the creative ways to kill revs and chronobunkers don’t work.

The things I hate right now:

1. Theorycrafting in the higher tiers has all but dried up. New possibilities will be overlooked.

2. Everyone bandwagoning on flavor of the month bunker mes whether to win unraked matches or money in proleague.

Dirame.8521:

I usually play what I think counters the meta and on very few instances does that include Engies.
In this meta, the only thing I see influencing a match apart from the current famous Engie build is a decaper engie with the ability to throw out unblockable CC.
There’s going to be a severe reduction in Necros the higher you go as well so you don’t have to worry about crazy condi pressure that much ‘cos even though Revs are crazy condi applicants, they still don’t apply as much as Necros in a single burst. So with the right timing, you could recap a bunker mesmer or Revenant whilst keeping yourself alive.

so…. unblockable as in blast gyro?

rchu.8945:

nearlight.3064:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/My-Hipster-Reaper-PvP-Builds/first#post5829354

My marauder build is listed in this thread. I honestly find it to be extremely fun, but the current meta needing greater amounts of boon rip is forcing me to play condi or even cele..

Anyway my build has amazing cleave pressure, rivialing that of pre-HoT marauder nades engineer, but with better sustain. In fact the premise of the build was inspired by the current marauder scrapper build thats used on nearly every EU team. Mightstacking through spite, durability runes to have very good sustain/boon duration and blighters boon to gain sustain from the combination of boons you get (including the 3 boon durability proc). I think pack runes can work too, but durability runes are the overpowered esportz rune, so you’d kitten yourself by not taking them. Adding to that, rise enables you to have more staying power in fights.. but less than you’d get as a marauder scrapper. Reaper does have much higher cleave damage than scrapper though, and I routinely get 5-6K soul spirals and 4K death’s charges and 7K executionary scythes.

Overall, this is a very fun and rewarding build to play, its just that condi is better, and teamfight cleave prescence isn’t as needed in this condi/bunker meta. Just don’t even think about fighting longbow/ancient seeds druids or else you will develop hypertension. Trust me on this one.

hi,

do you mind sharing your condi or cele reaper builds?

They’re also in that thread. You sub out GS for staff on the cele build if fighting lots of condi revs.

Also I might add a base necromancer condi build thats a better counter to condi revs and bunker mesmers, but it won’t be able to run reaper.

Swish.2463:

nearlight.3064:

But honestly when a class has to give up its elite spec just to act as a counterpick for something the enemy may or may not be running (such as in queues) you know you have a problem.

Sorry this point is wrong. This is actually one of the few good things to come with HoT.

This is what made Gw1 PvP just as gut wrenching as well. The knowledge that there were multiple meta builds and team comps and you and your crew or maybe just you, had to try and compensate for that whenever you went to play.

It is a good thing to have a revolving door set up where builds and teams need to prep and then later switch things up. If you picked completely wrong on the first match (seems like every single Gw2 “Pro” match up consists of 3 to 5 rounds) Then you take it on the nose and try to recover. It means tournament players have to pay attention to one another and any new comers, there isnt going to be a “We all run the exact same team comp with the same builds and same weapons and runes and sigils as each other, so whoever lags first loses” kittening bore anymore.

Having strong Builds that have a small handful of counters is also a good thing, specially when they all share similar weakness with one another.

TLDR : You’re wrong, a Meta that can actually shift and rotate is something Gw2 has been missing for 3 kittening years, we need it badly don’t kill it in its infancy.

Here’s why I don’t like it.

If I run base signet condi/cele necro specifically to counter bunker mes, I’ll probably be deadweight if my enemy isn’t running a bunker mes. Now this is fine in tournaments when you can see eachothers builds. But if you’re just queuing you’ll have no idea if your counterpick was worth it or not until it’s too late to change your build. If the mesmernis running lockdown instead of bunker, he’ll probably destroy you since base necromancer has no stability.

I think you get the picture. It’s not a good thing to be such a random niche pick to a common overpowered build because you lose any semblance of versatility in your role.

Edit: this build also counters mallyx rev with more certainty than normal reaper by a large margin as well, but if neither of those classes are being used, you’re much less useful.

I think there will be nerfs. I hope that they don’t gut the class though and I wish we could gradually nerf it over time to find a good spot for it rather than destroy it
Right now bunker mesmers are difficult to counter because you basically need unblockable CC and heavy boon strip. Condi herald and base necromancer without reaper fit the bill the most for that

But honestly when a class has to give up its elite spec just to act as a counterpick for something the enemy may or may not be running (such as in queues) you know you have a problem.

What irks me the most is that at the casual level people are stomped by bunker mes because they can’t rotate around it. Bunker guard was similar but easier to kill. This build just results in pugs feeding the bunker Mesmer and it’s teammates and it’s quite sad to see at all levels of play.

Have you even considered the horrible possibility of a minstrels Mesmer bunker?

Embolism.8106:

I think the current meta is upside down. Before Guardians were the ultimate bunkers and Mesmers the ultimate burst, now it’s exactly the other way around.

Yeah except dragonhunter is only slightly better than shatter Mesmer because of test of faith, so barely the ultimate burst, while bunker mes is literally way better than bunker guardian was in every single way.

Guardian at least had cooldowns where it couldn’t knock people back during a Rez or use quickness to rez. Chronomancers don’t have that limitation, they have 10 percent Rez speed and quickness for every Rez. I mean one bunker mes accidentally went through his own portal and had to come back through it (on NA proleague) and was still able to get the Rez, there’s such little counterplay because it happens so quick with so much quickness and stability. They also have much higher health, greater access to boons and are a better pointholder besides having slightly less condi cleanse.

Zenith.7301:

Thief doesn’t need the 1v1 back, they just need better teamfight presence and utility.

Nerf stealth, buff their innate survival with more damage reduction mechanisms that don’t come with the side benefit of large, spammable spike.

I mean, it’s not like rangers are doing well either. No, druids are not rangers, they are a completely separate healbot class that makes them give up their offensive capabilities (in which mesmers and thieves always eclipsed them).

Necro of course is out of meta as well, anybody could see it coming, when revenant is doing unrelenting assaults that hit for same or more damage than a Gravedigger with the added benefit of evade frames and a teleport to your target while having the strongest mainhand sword autoattack in the game. So power necro is a defenseless pinball with slow animations that are easy to dodge, and condi necro is totally eclipsed by condi engineer.

condition engineer has been out of the spvp meta since before June (though that killed it) and condition scrapper isn’t worth running. Condition reaper is much better than condition engineer and power reapers don’t have to use GS and that’s honestly the least of their problems in the meta.

You are right about rev being too strong. Why bring a condi necro when Mallyx shiro rev has so much better mobility, permanent resistance, and better condition application on top of all their broken sword 3 and shiro skills? Necro just has better CC, but bunker mes can cover the CC needs for a team

I’m trying to see the flaws and the downfalls, but after thinking about it, bunker Mesmer just bothers me a lot. They can Rez faster than anything else has ever rezzed whilst potentially putting resistance on downs to ignore poison while being the best pointholder in the game with tons of boons and CC. Permaresistance is also very bad. I don’t want to see this happen.

When it boils down to it, I just don’t think bunker Mesmer is good for the game, and I hope that justified nerfs will occur. Even if they just make precog not have capture point contribution (as it should have in the first place) of be fine enough with that so we could reevaluate its strengths in comparison to tempests/Druids/cele scrapers which are largely being replaced by bunker chronomancers, which most top teams are running multiple of..

Morwath.9817:

nearlight.3064:

If this doesn’t get patched tomorrow I’m going to be quite perplexed.

For those of you who don’t know, the mallyx elite skill embrace the darkness is a bugged upkeep so that it pulses its torment stacks and burning through blocks, evades, etc. This means that there is “zero counterplay” when fighting a mallyx revenant using this skill.

If you won’t balance this game to give this (and bunk mes and diamond skin) a heavy does of chemotherapy against this cancer, why won’t you at least fix the bugs that make the skills artificially stronger than the should be? Fix this and then we can start to think about whether mallyx/shiro rev is overpowered or not. Since now in its current state where nearly every proleague team has 1-2 of them (and sometimes a third revenant) build diversity is kittened and that is simply deplorable.

Tormet is applied by Embrace.
Burning is applied by Diabolic Inferno (Corruption GM) and can be triggered by elite of any Legend.

But doesn’t it still ignore defenses if triggered through embrace?

If this doesn’t get patched tomorrow I’m going to be quite perplexed.

For those of you who don’t know, the mallyx elite skill embrace the darkness is a bugged upkeep so that it pulses its torment stacks and burning through blocks, evades, etc. This means that there is “zero counterplay” when fighting a mallyx revenant using this skill.

If you won’t balance this game to give this (and bunk mes and diamond skin) a heavy does of chemotherapy against this cancer, why won’t you at least fix the bugs that make the skills artificially stronger than the should be? Fix this and then we can start to think about whether mallyx/shiro rev is overpowered or not. Since now in its current state where nearly every proleague team has 1-2 of them (and sometimes a third revenant) build diversity is kittened and that is simply deplorable.

ReaperJr.5967:

nearlight.3064:

ReaperJr.5967:

Dirame.8521:

Soryuju.8164:

If you’re not willing to show proof for the “sheep” that you’re looking down on.

Go watch my videos then or watch me when I stream. And I hate to look down on people, which is why I said we rather than you because I know that I am also forced to play the Meta specs because no one wants to believe in trying to counter.

You do realise you are not making sense right?

-> makes claim that non-elite specs can counter meta
-> doesnt prove it
-> says he can’t prove it because he’s ‘forced’ to play meta specs because no one wants to believe
-> logic???

For one, d/d ele gets destroyed in this meta. So does classic bunker guard. period

Actually he’s specifically mentioning spite/curses (and probably soul reaping) necromancer with most likely wanderer’s amulet.

The problem with reaper is that reaper itself does not give any boon removal/corruption in of itself like traits from curses and spite do. However as a necroamancer in pvp, pretty much all non-minion builds are forced into soul reaping for soul marks and vital persistence to have enough sustain and life force to make it work, which means you have to give up a huge source of pressure or reaper.

If you give up reaper you can be trained down quite easily due to no stability but your burst pressure vs. revs/mesmer/tempestsafterDS/druids is much higher. You’d also lose sustained damage pressure from deathly chill, but running spite/curses reaper is simply a waste because condi reaper without soulreaping for VP/SM will be completely unable to manage life force which means less mightstacks from shroud and less corruption bursting people with path of corruption.

I hope this clarified the confusion but I think its worth looking into, since reaper feels like its missing something when boon removal is the biggest solution to taking down the bunker mes/condi rev meta.

If you look at his previous posts in this thread, you’ll see what I mean.

Well 1/3 base specs having a possible specific niche isn’t a bad estimation.

Though yeah, tempest with shout runes/torrents/diamond skin counters condi rev’s condition pressure as good as a shoutguard could, its just that they do more than just condi pressure. In a way scrapper has absorbed the old role of the D/D ele (side point 1v1 hero and high sustain and cleave damage in teamfights) and if those two roles aren’t enough to counter this cancer meta, then we have a problem.

At least base necromancer is still worth looking into. If a team babysits it like crazy, since god knows its so easy to focus fire out of existence despite all the boons it can strip, it could provide something we’ve been needing. Maybe a come back of cele signets? I don’t know but wanderer’s with signets and curses and soul reaping doesn’t seem all that bad at all when you don’t have three people wailing on you.

ReaperJr.5967:

Dirame.8521:

Soryuju.8164:

If you’re not willing to show proof for the “sheep” that you’re looking down on.

Go watch my videos then or watch me when I stream. And I hate to look down on people, which is why I said we rather than you because I know that I am also forced to play the Meta specs because no one wants to believe in trying to counter.

You do realise you are not making sense right?

-> makes claim that non-elite specs can counter meta
-> doesnt prove it
-> says he can’t prove it because he’s ‘forced’ to play meta specs because no one wants to believe
-> logic???

For one, d/d ele gets destroyed in this meta. So does classic bunker guard. period

Actually he’s specifically mentioning spite/curses (and probably soul reaping) necromancer with most likely wanderer’s amulet.

The problem with reaper is that reaper itself does not give any boon removal/corruption in of itself like traits from curses and spite do. However as a necroamancer in pvp, pretty much all non-minion builds are forced into soul reaping for soul marks and vital persistence to have enough sustain and life force to make it work, which means you have to give up a huge source of pressure or reaper.

If you give up reaper you can be trained down quite easily due to no stability but your burst pressure vs. revs/mesmer/tempestsafterDS/druids is much higher. You’d also lose sustained damage pressure from deathly chill, but running spite/curses reaper is simply a waste because condi reaper without soulreaping for VP/SM will be completely unable to manage life force which means less mightstacks from shroud and less corruption bursting people with path of corruption.

I hope this clarified the confusion but I think its worth looking into, since reaper feels like its missing something when boon removal is the biggest solution to taking down the bunker mes/condi rev meta.

Its okay, lets just build the emerald city in the heart of the mists and we can troll people as the wiz together.

I don’t think we’re progressing the leaderboard anymore toto.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/My-Hipster-Reaper-PvP-Builds/first#post5829354

My marauder build is listed in this thread. I honestly find it to be extremely fun, but the current meta needing greater amounts of boon rip is forcing me to play condi or even cele..

Anyway my build has amazing cleave pressure, rivialing that of pre-HoT marauder nades engineer, but with better sustain. In fact the premise of the build was inspired by the current marauder scrapper build thats used on nearly every EU team. Mightstacking through spite, durability runes to have very good sustain/boon duration and blighters boon to gain sustain from the combination of boons you get (including the 3 boon durability proc). I think pack runes can work too, but durability runes are the overpowered esportz rune, so you’d kitten yourself by not taking them. Adding to that, rise enables you to have more staying power in fights.. but less than you’d get as a marauder scrapper. Reaper does have much higher cleave damage than scrapper though, and I routinely get 5-6K soul spirals and 4K death’s charges and 7K executionary scythes.

Overall, this is a very fun and rewarding build to play, its just that condi is better, and teamfight cleave prescence isn’t as needed in this condi/bunker meta. Just don’t even think about fighting longbow/ancient seeds druids or else you will develop hypertension. Trust me on this one.

morrolan.9608:

Chaith.8256:

Every pip farm team, every ESL team, all will slowly change their comps toward using double Bunker Chrono / Double Revenant, with small personalizations of course.

Even The Abjured?

Rumor time: Chaith on his stream this past saturday (or was it friday?) said that they’d been practicing other things. Like that he was practicing rev, and that nos was practicing DH and bunker chrono, and well phanta and toker already have played rev, with phanta swithcing off to condi rev last week..

Dirame.8521:

nearlight.3064:

I don’t think I’d reccomend playing base condi necro in pvp. Yes it has the potential to have far more boon corruption and burst pressure than condi reaper (from having both spite and curses), but its sustained pressure is very much lacking without deathly chill, and its generally easier to train down in teamfights. So more risk for a sitautionally different reward.

And even when you take that all away condi rev is better because shiro lets it zip around the map way faster.

The slowness of the Necro actually works to it’s advantage (and so does this slow kill meta) because the Necro can come in when people have used a lot of their cooldowns, “turn down for what” a Rev before he can even blink and all of a sudden, the mobility of the Rev doesn’t matter. Just like portal doesn’t matter as proven by several bunker mesmers.

I don’t want to go back to yet another period where necromancers aren’t intrinsically strong in of themselves, but rather strong because they can corrupt boon spam the overpowered boonspammers. Its more anti-meta gameplay that the class has only really ever been able to fulfill, until reaper came along, but now that the meta everywhere else has boiled down to even more broken cheese, that doesn’t matter as much.

Still I always knew that spite/curses would be needed to get kitten done. Playing reaper with much lower amounts of boon strip just started to feel “off” when the boonspammers became more frequent. And I’d be okay with this if necromancer’s weren’t bound by soul reaping for vital persistance and life force generation and soul marks, which we’ll need to break through all the echos of memory and crystalline hibernations out there.

You could very well be right. But I hope you’re not.

I don’t think I’d reccomend playing base condi necro in pvp. Yes it has the potential to have far more boon corruption and burst pressure than condi reaper (from having both spite and curses), but its sustained pressure is very much lacking without deathly chill, and its generally easier to train down in teamfights. So more risk for a sitautionally different reward.

And even when you take that all away condi rev is better because shiro lets it zip around the map way faster.

Dawdler.8521:

Maybe only one kit?! Pff, you can never have enough gyros http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqancoCtoiFpCepCEqiF2ii+3H+lH8DLxAIMFvoXD-TJhAABws/g+lBA4EAw9DAAA (sidenote: the runes where picked on random, there’s lots of options)

Hmm interesting but I might be tempted to take alchemy over inventions with durability or aristocracy runes or leadership runes.

How good is the swiftness uptime? Since heavy armor exploit might be better than chemical rounds since you already have good conditition duration from wanderer stats.

Teror sucks hard. I suggest master of corruption with corrupt boon and corrosive poison cloud, and you’ll even get more sustain through your heal.

Staff has better support and better onpoint pressure so I don’t think it shouild be wholly overlooked in comparison to D/F, especially since you still have magnetic aura from it and you have more CC in fights, and with cleansing water, torrents, and shout runes you yell off a ton of condis on allies. Its not really my playstyle though.

You could always tack on earth shield for the invuln, though that cast time will be a kitten to deal with.