Guild Wars 2

glaphen.5230:

Well assuming 1023 condition duration in Spvp on a point against a guy swinging once a second and ignoring sigils, on crit procs, and runes
583:Burning
186:Poison
280:3 stacks of bleeding
992:7 stacks of confusion

Wow a whole 2041 damage a second and thats ignoring a TON of damage sources as you /dance. Your 50% chance to get a 2100 bomb auto attack on a lightly armored target cannot even compare with this damage with a tanky build.

Glaphen are you arguing just to argue? I checked some of your older posts and what you say here doesn’t add up to some of your posts in your history. You know your stuff on most classes from what I skimmed over so it doesn’t seem to add up unless you just like arguing with coglin.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Conditions’ have internal base damage, meaning if you have 0 conditions damage, they still do damage. Direct damage scales off power. If you have 0 power you do 0 direct damage.

What? Are you serious? You aren’t serious with the 0 power thing right?

Also please tell me how you get 0 power in guild wars 2?

MithranArkanere.8957:

Carighan.6758:

[…]

Look at the numbers in every single skill with DPS conditions.
Do you notice a pattern? Conditions always have a number higher than direct damage, and on average they have much higher damage.

Did you really say that?

That is your base damage!! It doesn’t show you how much damage you will do if you crit. It is also your damage if the target had 2600 armor. Not everyone is running around with 2600 armor.

You wrote all that and started with that statement?

killahmayne.9518:

oZii.2864:

killahmayne.9518:

There is a reason why nobody would be scared of a Mesmer in full PVT gear, if you see one for that matter, over a mesmer that is full Dire, which you do see a bit. People say dodge but you can’t possibly dodge all winds of chaos bouncing around at you, clones dieing and inflicting conditions while duelists are shooting you at the same time with that mesmer using chaos armor and casting chaos storm on top of your head. People just would rather stick to mathematic calculations and theorycrafting and refuse to see what actually happens in a realistic situation. Theoretically an attack can do 10 billion damage but if it has no chance of landing it does zero damage.

You don’t see full dire mesmers because of a Trait called Sharper images. If you see a full dire mesmer then he did it terribly wrong. I think you think you see full dire mesmers cause a full dire mesmer is dumb and should never kill anyone.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/mesmer/?4.0|b.5q.h5.a.5q.h1.0.0.0|6.5q.0.0.0.0|5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.5q.71m.0.0.0.0.0.0|2x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2w.0|k53.k2a.u5ac.0.0|30.d|0.0.0.0.0|e

This build is as full dire as you can be and it still has a 25-26% crit chance. With phantasms have fury it has a 45-46% which is still pretty good. A full rabid build has around 55-56% crit chance and with fury is a 75%-76% crit chance.

As far as I know the two main phantasms to really take advantage of sharper images are the duelist and the warden. At most from the duelist you will get two extra bleeds? Illusions can inflict bleeds as well, but it wouldn’t be that many more either.

So yes there is a significant DPS increase. However it isn’t the difference between able to kill a lot of players and being unable to kill anybody at all as you imply. If anything, it would only take slightly longer to kill the opponent but probably not much longer.

Technically a condition mesmer shouldn’t kill anybody, whether they use dire or rabid or not because most classes can just run away. See how moot your argument is? Even against a power build you can easily disengage.

Anyways, I digress because this wasn’t even the point I was trying to make. My point was how easily somebody in dire gear outclasses and outdamages somebody in soldier gear in a practical situation. And how anybody in Soldier’s gear wouldn’t kill a thing besides full glass cannons and uplevels. You hit like a *insert b word".

It does matter especially running pistol 76% of 8 is 6 stacks of bleeds
45% of 8 sometimes will give you 3 bleeds and sometimes 4. Nobody gets hit by all of duelist right? So 3-4 of your bullets are a threat to cause bleeding whereas rabid 6 can cause bleeding. You can dodge half of duelist chain not the whole chain. So with higher crit chance you have a better chance to proc bleed even if they do dodge.

Your issue in all that dire is your clones!

The Phantasms have fury not your clones and running staff the clones is what its all about getting double bleed procs. So your clones 25% chance to proc sharper images(terrible) and they attack slower then you do. I don’t know man you really are underestimating rabid on a PU build running dire is killing ALOT of your dps.

It looks like if that is what you run you just blow dodges for on death traits to kill people. I also wouldnt run the tunning crystals I would run maintenance oils to bump up precision but thats what I do on my mes when I run PU.

Meglobob.8620:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I see you are on a NA server, I am on a EU server and in Europe the condition meta is massive…except for thieves, mesmers the other classes all use massive condition application:-

Engineers condition users
Rangers condition users
Necro condition users

Warriors/Eles/Guardians are 50/50 ish split between condition/direct damage…

So the current meta in Europe is conditions…

I don’t understand how it is massive with mesmers?
The reason mesmers can’t get in the meta is because of Necros and Engineers but you make it sound like they are thriving in EU in your condition meta. That doesn’t make sense when mesmers are weak to conditions (by design).

Necro is the counter to them and guardians with support and shouts can help neutralize their conditions easily. Some of the top foreign mesmers I know of switched to direct damage thief.

Condi Eles and Guardians? Really your telling me the top sPvP players in EU are running Condi Eles and Condi Guardians like condi guardian is even a thing? I don’t know man it sounds kind of suspect.

Meglobob.8620:

Won’t the condition meta in sPvP be a lot stronger after the 15.4.14?

Looking at the changes so far announced, the condition meta seems to be getting a overall buff…

Condition removal is actually being nerfed for several classes too…

Last I checked the top teams run 1-2 condition classes at the most. Only removal I am aware of being nerfed is lyssa runes.

killahmayne.9518:

There is a reason why nobody would be scared of a Mesmer in full PVT gear, if you see one for that matter, over a mesmer that is full Dire, which you do see a bit. People say dodge but you can’t possibly dodge all winds of chaos bouncing around at you, clones dieing and inflicting conditions while duelists are shooting you at the same time with that mesmer using chaos armor and casting chaos storm on top of your head. People just would rather stick to mathematic calculations and theorycrafting and refuse to see what actually happens in a realistic situation. Theoretically an attack can do 10 billion damage but if it has no chance of landing it does zero damage.

You don’t see full dire mesmers because of a Trait called Sharper images. If you see a full dire mesmer then he did it terribly wrong. I think you think you see full dire mesmers cause a full dire mesmer is dumb and should never kill anyone.

glaphen.5230:

Ah did not know that, still doesn’t make it worth using precision for on most classes.

Sounds like you overvalue vitality?

FrownyClown.8402:

What’s the internal cooldown

there is none

That is what karl said and that is what I hoped for.

The trait is in competition with Fresh Air. What would need to be figured out is the dps fresh air provides with electric discharge swapping going to be greater then this trait.

Halting strike damage is no joke on a mesmer it’s a awesome trait but on ele I can see d/f getting some mileage and d/d out of this good but is it better then fresh air+electric discharge procs over the long run.

MiLkZz.4789:

Your tests are set in unrealistic environments, I can make tests aswel showing how conditions pull more DPS than full zerker damage.

Please share! I’m not being being funny but generally interested in see this one.

Really anyone can skew tests if they like but your example of zerker out dpsing condi everyone would know it is rigged (if it is even possible).

Here it is debatable about dire v soldier(actually its not but people keep making variables).

Example is tim’s quoted post it looks solid damage forumula’s etc. Your zerk losing to a condition build in a DPS race would only fool people not familiar with damage foruma, crit chance, crit damage.

Kravick.4906:

MiLkZz.4789:

snip

All of these issues have already been discussed, debunked, and proven wrong in this thread alone. Please try again.

Yea he has a point with impale but that is just a problem with impale.

glaphen.5230:

oZii.2864:

glaphen.5230:

Still waiting for any kittening videos or spreadsheets or whatever you people keep spewing to actually be posted.

Why? It’s clear the videos won’t satisfy you because you want skill to be accounted for. So would we do that? How could we spreadsheet a actual guild wars 2 fight?

We can post montages of 1vX and maybe you would like that but we can do that for direct damage too.

Where is your spreadsheets and videos supporting your argument all we keep getting is what you “feel”

Yeah the exact same for you except you kittenes keep talking about these amazing videos, calculations and spreadsheets that no one wants to give a simple link to.

? Time post is accurate controlled Dps test but it doesn’t work for you because it isn’t pro players 1v1ing. Nothing anyone posts will work for you because you ready to say “Dude nobody would get hit by that” you would continue with player 1 would do Y when player 2 does X.

Nobody can give you a calculation using simulated players with skill levels you find acceptable.

Rennoko.5731:

Sin had the same thought i did. Krait will become 5 bleed on interrupt!!

I would use that.

Yea ren this is my hope.

I know people don’t like the rune but I feel like it is a creative rune. It’s a offensive rune so the proc is offensive I hate “when struck” bonuses on offensive runes but they are great on earth runes and it makes sense or water runes.

I hope they put some thought into that depth of runes but based on what seen so far I don’t think so.

I found nades kind of boring I see their purpose but they seemed more straight forward. In still learning engi but I didn’t understand bombs at first now I love them.

glaphen.5230:

Still waiting for any kittening videos or spreadsheets or whatever you people keep spewing to actually be posted.

Why? It’s clear the videos won’t satisfy you because you want skill to be accounted for. So would we do that? How could we spreadsheet a actual guild wars 2 fight?

We can post montages of 1vX and maybe you would like that but we can do that for direct damage too.

Where is your spreadsheets and videos supporting your argument all we keep getting is what you “feel”

Cygnus.6903:

It’s incredible how quickly the cries of terribad dire users flood this post.

Condition damage needs a huge nerf. Way bigger then what ferocity is going to do to the rest of the entire game, despite it being a pve oriented nerf.

The problem with the nerf condition group is nobody is giving suggestions they are just pointing fingers.

Also the nerf condition group are the ones that love to bring up dire v soldier because they think it will make their case. Then people post videos and calculations but the nerf condi group posts nothing just more finger pointing.

Then the nerf condition group throws in variables like dodge rolls and try to present some scripted fight scenario on how the fight will play out probably assuming they are fighting a equal skilled opponent.

That gets no where except spinning wheels if your argument is dire v soldier then the test and calculations has to be a controlled scenario.

I’ll tell you all day long that I have a thief and know how p/d thieves play so I don’t have a problem with them on my main which is elementalist but someone else might not be able to fight them and always die. Then someone comes in and says oh they sucked that’s why you beat them no p/d thief should lose to a ele this can’t be calculated that is all opinion including my own.

At least the pro condition side is giving some strong cases to back it up while the nerf condi side is giving anecdotal evidence.

Both would be the best but if forced to chose is go with battle the condition damage puts it in battles favor

glaphen.5230:

Can someone tell me who stands in melee range of a Guardian sword auto attacks? News flash, Guardians lack cripple and chill and a Necromancer can put cripple permanently on them with just Flesh Golem. Dark Path and Chillblains are permanent chill with 100% condition duration. If they are removing those to be reapplied fast they aren’t removing damaging conditions either. The only time the Necromancer would possibly ever need to dodge is after Flashing Blade and Leap of Faith while hes kiting him and surprise Guardians lack weakness too so the Necromancer gets 1 dodge per 10 seconds which is more than enough.

If that is your argument then it’s obvious you are just making wild claims. The concept of a proper Dps calculation escapes you. You will throw in every variable to help your argument.

Really you can’t grasps a proper Dps test of dire v soldier?

If you can’t then your just another “I don’t like it nerf please player”.

You look silly bring up variables we can’t account for like common sense! We can’t math common sense because we don’t know how everyone plays saying player 1 will dodge attack 1 but not 2 is something you can’t prove by facts.

You might suck and get hit with zealous blade but not the auto attack. We can’t account for you sucking.

Nobody knows what your skill level is and if you know what to avoid and what not to avoid. Your projecting how you would fight probably against yourself this tells us nothing about dire v soldier or the value of precision. It just gives us insight in how you look at the skills of guardian and necro that’s all.

So a dev comes out and says

We are reducing engi Mesmer and warrior confusion because we are adding a new rune!!

Not happening ever

Jackums.3496:

No. The defensive stats gained from running Dire greatly out-weighs the minimal additional on-proc bonuses of the crit-based outlets, with the exception of Dhuumfire/Incendiary Powder; which requires little precision as both have a 10 sec CD.

Condition specs do damage over time. They don’t instantly burst down a target like a Thief or Mesmer running a power build. Therefore they rely on their ability to survive to be fully effective. Dire gear is objectively the best stat combination for that in PvP game modes. Condition duration is attained through trait lines and food (Rare Veggie Pizza). Precision, if you really want it, is also easy to attain through consumables and sigil stacks.

They’re worlds apart. Don’t compare power build investment to condition build investment, because it’s laughable. Condition builds can attain near maximum damage output whilst also achieving bunker-like defensive stats. Power builds can’t even come close with the mandatory heavy investment in three separate stats.

Your sig says you have a mesmer why not go run around in dire gear as a pu mesmer and run around in rabid as a pu mesmer. I have a mesmer and I would never even think about throwing dire gear on it because the loss of bleeds via sharper images drops your dps by alot.

Your running duelist on your mesmer in a condi build. You have 14% chance to crit because you went full dire your duelist has a 1% chance to cause a bleed during it’s attack 34%(with phantasmal fury) = 2.72%.

It is very hard to kill anyone decent with on death traits alone even if your running staff clones it will still take a long time to kill someone with 14% crit chance.

Tim laid out the numbers but I’m sure people will ignore his post and keep saying dire out dps’s soldiers etc etc.

Yea I saw a ranger hitting him right after he stomped the rangers buddy and he fought a 2 pu mesmers not sure how you missed those fights.

LordByron.8369:

Could anyone post a link to new rune’s changes?
I can t find anything around.
TY

http://dulfy.net/2014/03/21/gw2-ready-up-episode-8-developer-livestream/

http://dulfy.net/2014/03/28/gw2-ready-up-episode-9-livestream-notes/

People spotted lyssa in the second live stream when they hovered over it slightly.

Rune is the same except it is convert up to 5 conditions to 5 boons instead of a full wipe. Basically a weaker contemplation of purity.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

This thread is just gross, on both sides of the issue.
Several facts:
1) Dire is worse DPS than soldiers by a significant amount, and this is indisputable.
2) However, one hit from a condition attack will generally do more total damage than an equivalent power attack (as a method of compensation for the time period that damage happens over as well as the increase in mitigation).
3) Conditions in general tend to be harder to avoid, either because of passive crit procs (can’t dodge those) or because ranged conditions tend to be less avoidable than their physical counterparts (excluding hybrids, as those aren’t quite relevant and tend to be extremely telegraphed)- compare ele fire staff #3 to #2.

The final reason is why conditions are so prevalent in small-scale pvp, in that while conditions hit less hard, they are far more reliable which makes them a very solid choice.

Doesn’t your 2,3 and final reason assume that they will run their full course? If you miss the dodge to avoid the application you have 2 choices either cleanse or heal through it. If you miss the dodge against direct damage your only choice is to heal it back.

If I have 1000 HP left but a cleanse available and catch 5 stacks of bleeds ticking at 100 I cleanse after the first tick I have 500 HP if my 6k heal is also up I go back up to 6.5k HP. If I have 1000 HP left and my cleanse and heal up and get hit with a 1001 direct damage attack I’m dead.

Why are we even trying to compare Dire to Soldiers? This just turns it into Power v Condition damage which doesn’t work because the damage and defenses against both is different?

If you run Soldiers and plan to kill anyone with it then you probably are running a crit chance modifier somewhere in your build like deathly perception, zephyr’s boon, arcane fury, thrill of the crime, furious retaliation, hidden killer, unsuspecting foe, focused mind.

Activation of any of those during your high damage rotations dramatically raises soldiers killing ability.

When unsuspecting foe was adept the common mace or hammer builds running around went to only 30% chance to crit+ sor + unsuspecting foe = 100% chance to crit.

This is like taking a Ele with Zephyr’s boon attacking the golem during testing but not activating a aura first.

You don’t expect a condition user to use weapons that don’t apply conditions to prove his point that conditions aren’t OP so why assume a person isn’t grabbing crit modifiers in a Soldier build to prove Soldiers is weaker then dire.

Using Soldiers v Dire is flawed from the start because the main damage types are totally different I mean they are nothing alike at all. To many variables in the build making process and on top trying to compare 2 totally different damage types.

glaphen.5230:

oZii.2864:

Hey I got one for you since we are just throwing things around!

At level 80 you have 916 power to start!!!!!!!
At level 80 you have 0 condition damage!!!!

If I told you I was giving you almost 1000 of any stat for free you would take it.

That 916 power to start means you put 916 points somewhere else.

Say you like 2000 power in your build that means you can start moving points somewhere else earlier because you got 916 power for free.

Obviously the game isn’t balanced around this at all.

Are you sure it isn’t?

Last I checked any other rune gives you 165 of its primary stat whereas a condition damage rune gives you 183. Why do you think that is?

So you are telling me that they don’t balance the game around 916 power to start? Maybe they should take away the 916 power and everyone starts at 0 I bet everyone would love that. I bet 916 power to start factors into balance because it factors into everyones build even if they don’t realize it.

A condition build wants to reach 2000 condition damage he has to invest 2000 stat points toward condition damage. A power build has to invest 1084 stat points. Everyone knows that power> all offensive stats it is the most important offensive stat when building direct damage but you seem to imply 916 power just doesn’t matter. Ok.

Condition damage is the only offensive stat that starts at 0. The base critical damage is 150% so even if you don’t invest in critical damage you will always do more then base damage when you crit even if you don’t want to. You start with 4% critical chance but you say its a fluff stat.

Killface.1896:

You forgetting condition ignore armor,I be happy with 0 points at lvl 80 and ignoring armor with my power hits…

Not forgotten just not mentioned because I brought up 916 power because people are saying that condition builds only need to invest in 1 stat when power gets a 916 point headstart for stat points. The 2 just can’t be compared point for point but people keep trying so I threw 916 points in the ring.

You are correct so since direct damage and condition act different why are people still trying to compare them as if they act the same? They don’t kill the same, they aren’t effected by defenses the same but still people keep using the argument as if they are the same stats.

Apples and oranges tbh.

Hey I got one for you since we are just throwing things around!

At level 80 you have 916 power to start!!!!!!!
At level 80 you have 0 condition damage!!!!

If I told you I was giving you almost 1000 of any stat for free you would take it.

That 916 power to start means you put 916 points somewhere else.

Say you like 2000 power in your build that means you can start moving points somewhere else earlier because you got 916 power for free.

The one thing you hope it’s not was only brought up by you.

BlackBeard.2873:

Now rather than counting possible builds, let’s look at the most frequent builds you come across roaming (a good 50-70% depending on the server you are fighting):

1. Condi Engie (condition)
2. D/P thieves (direct – this isn’t b/c they are strong, its b/c many noobs are cowards)
3. PU Mesmer (condition AND cowards)
4. Condi Warrior

Your list is a dueling list. I see more then these roaming if your sitting here saying you never see guardians in roaming groups then not sure where you play.

No mobility warriors? Even though there is a thread on the front page complaining about them? No d/d Eles even though that is a very popular ele build? No s/d thieves? No s/p thieves?

Sorry I can’t buy your list for more then leaving build out to support your argument. You didn’t even have p/d perplex thieves. If the numbers don’t support you then there is nothing you can do about it.

I could have used popular spvp builds to prove my point since top teams only take 1-2 condi builds leaving 6+ usual direct damage builds. Nobody runs condi in pve all that is left is? WvW roaming and dueling(side meta). So let’s balance conditions because they counter some peoples dueling builds.

If you pay attention closely you will notice that he isn’t wasting dodges (since he has no EA dodges are for avoiding) you will also notice he gets good mileage out of enduring damage to me it looks like he is consciously keeping endurance up as best as possible to get that modifier.

Awesome video and great play.

Dina Van Heyr.3018:

the only good option for these runes if they are completely removed from game .. there is reason why they’re not in spvp and it’s same reason why the shouldn’t be in game at all

Rune of mad king, perplexity, exuberance, tormenting, altruism, generosity sigil, tormenting sigil, sigil of bursting, sigil of malice, sigil of renewal etc etc…

This is the weakest argument to be honest people will take anything and run with it to validate their point. If you are against the runes cool but that is not why they never added them.

See above for alot of things that where never added that nobody ever complained about. When was the last time you saw Sigil of Renewal is OP nerf plox. Then you chime in with “There is a reason blah blah” like you got inside track with the devs.

Gotta love the internet. If you have a gripe then cool and give your reasons you don’t have a “quote” as to why they didn’t add any of the above so don’t sell it as fact.

Uhh well of course it can hit more other wise power would be useless. That is good for 1200 power.

DiogoSilva.7089:

I agree with whoever suggested that the effect #4 could and should be entirely removed. In addition to being completely mindless (automatic proc!), the effect #6 is so crazy, that when we take it into account and everything else the rune offers (condition damage and +30% confusion duration), it would see play nonetheless. And that is, if the #4 effect was removed!

It would be something like this (the #6 effect would still need a nerf even if #4 was entirely removed):

1. 25 Condition Damage
2. +5% Confusion Duration
3. 50 Condition Damage
4. +10% Confusion duration
5. 100 Condition Damage
6. +15% Confusion duration. When you interrupt a foe, cause 5 stacks of confusion for 5 seconds. 15s ICD.

(Note: 5 stacks for 5 seconds every 15 seconds is still strong).

I like this suggestion I feel with fear becoming a interrupt that every class now would have the means to make use of the 6 piece. Now if you don’t have confusion application ability at all like a necro usually doesn’t have then running a different runes set isn’t as big of a damage drop off. The line between the best condition rune and the next rune isn’t as big. Players will still use the best and we always figure out what is the best so either you boost up the other runes to match or nerf this one are the only options.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Just a thought, you are FULL ascended. Armor, weapons and Accessories. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe you were fighting people that weren’t full Ascended? I mean the damage is nice and all but you are full Ascended after all.

Don’t get me wrong, the damage is nice but as you have no idea about the other guys it could just be they were running rares for all you know and several of your fights involved people that were semi AFK as well which does help.

The damage should be about 5% more and his damage reduction is also about 5% that’s really the biggest difference between the ascended and exotic.

If he wouldn’t have shown his gear I doubt the question of him in full ascended vs people not in ascended would have came up.

Bingo!! Excellent video and shows a deep in earth Ele can do great damage.

Me and Out of Attunement a few months back where testing a deep in Earth build direct damage and it was very strong. It was weak to condi pressure because he didn’t go all the way in and get diamond skin(just 25 point in earth for the modifier) but all my other classes I brought it was a very strong against.

Great video I always enjoy Gnomez. That overwolf overlay try moving it over your map. That is where I put mine and find it’s not in the way there I was having the same issue you had in the video of accidently hovering and it messes up my camera rotation.

Both I guess but it depends on your perspective.

Me personally I think Perplexity rune is a proper rune. Everyone will usually set up their traits the same in a build maybe 1 or 2 changes then you run different runes. It still doesn’t really give you the feeling that it’s something different.

Instead of having a torment ele, perplexity ele, or scavenging ele for example it usually ends up as 1 of the above. Then the differences aren’t usually apparent right away.

Take rune of grenth if you gave me a 20% chance to proc in when “I” hit someone then I look at the rune a little bit different I can control that proc just a little bit more. When “You” get hit then I usually don’t even pay attention to the 4 piece and just look at the raw stats or the 6.

I think runes overall should have a bigger impact on your build, that is pretty much why alot of certain runes are popular because they are that good.

It doesn’t matter what class you play if you have if you can interrupt in a condition build with decent cooldowns perplexity is always better.

I think every rune has been redone to be appealing so it is hard to say what the other ones look like. Undead is plain and due for a facelift, rune of the elementalist will probably be redone, scavening etc etc.

Just from what is known right now perplexity would still be better but we still don’t know. Rune of the noble would be really good also and would allow for crazy condition damage levels.

Really though it is hard to say right now we don’t know what the other runes look like. They bumped up sigil of accuracy to 7% crit chance I didn’t see that coming at all which makes me think every rune and sigil has in fact changed.

1 shot 16k evis from full to zero? Axe wars almost all play the same they run bullscharge and shield good warriors(still predictable) wait for you to dodge then shield bash or bullscharge about mid of your dodge so that you get hit when you come out of the animation then evis right after.

It’s almost the same setup for every axe war evis on your mid dodge or one of the rush attacks either way you should be prepared to double dodge. I don’t find axe warrior that difficult they are usually very squishy. The axe auto damage is on the backend now before axe warriors where much harder to fight then now because the axe auto dps was crazy strong.

Popular roaming builds are:

Thief

D/P Thief – direct
P/d Thief – condi
S/D Thief – Direct
S/P Thief – Direct

Mesmer

PU Condi – Condi
PU Power – Direct
Phantasm – Direct
Phantasm – Condi
Hybrid – condi/direct

Necro

Terror – condi
MM – direct
Powermancer – direct

Guardian
Meds – direct
healway – direct
AH shouts – direct
AH dps – direct

Engi

Bombs – condi
Nades – Condi
Nades – Direct
Nades – Hybrid
Rifle – direct

Warrior

S/S + LB – Condi
S/Shield + LB – direct
Hammer + GS – direct
Mace/Shield + GS – direct
Axe/Shield + GS – direct

Elementalist

D/D classic – Direct
S/D fresh air – Direct
S/f fresh air – Direct

Don’t know rangers well but I see

Zerk shortbow
and the condi build with traps or axe.

Just at first sight there are more power builds roaming then condi builds. This isn’t the most solid of evidence but these are most of the popular roaming builds.

21 direct
8 condi builds you can lump hybrid in there if you like but there is still more direct.

You can of course come up with crazy condi builds that most never heard of or change a trait from the core build to make it more condi builds but your reaching then.

These are all builds that if a new player came into any of those forums asking for a wvw roaming build one of the above variations is what they would get directed to.

What is getting lost here is if you come across 2 pu condi mesmers but still that is the same build, terrormancers are still the same build, 4 P/D thieves are still P/D thieves.

Most classes have 1-2 popular roaming condi builds and usually have double that in direct damage roaming builds.

I think this is off the table at this point unless it’s in this upcoming patch. This is hot button been going on for months on the ele forums, it comes up close to every balance patch and pops up in every balance discussion. If they where going to revert it they would have already.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

For necros it’s pretty important too. Barbed Precision adds a LOT of damage. Mesmers do need it even more, though.

Ahh correct I forgot about barbed precision. I dropped my crit chance down to 25% on my necro and felt that was good enough but I was more focused on dhuumfire procs then the barbed. I wouldn’t run that low on my mesmer ever.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Simonoly.4352:

Sounds like a far more balanced rune set now. Even with the 8 second ICD on the interrupt bonus, these runes have continued to be remarkably face-rollish in WvW. They would honestly be ridiculous in their current state in sPvP so this is definitely a positive change.

Its not the runes that made them faceroll easy. It was specific classes that already had good/insane access to Confusion. Warrior, Engineer and Mesmer were the worst ones with it. Thief thanks to being able to spam interrupts 3 or 4 times in a row with certain builds weren’t exactly easy to fight either.

They will continue to be strong because the root issue has been ignored – the classes that can abuse them have not been fixed so they can’t. Even with the nerf to it this is still a very strong Runeset for them, it just means for other classes that used them because they were a new condition its just a big nerf.

Fixed? You want warrior, mesmer, engineer, to be fixed so that you can play condi Ele? What!

The classes and traits have been around since launch the runes came later I am sure the runes get changed before classes will that is crazy to suggest. The duration doesn’t even work on the runes currently anyone with a interrupt could abuse the 6 before the icd was added. Now you get 1 interrupt then it goes on icd if you put them on your condi ele then you still can use them post patch.

They are being nerfed because of interrupts on classes make them the best runes to run on your condi build. Really your condition ele will still be able to use the runes like you do now but the 4 piece is alot less controllable.

Look at lyssa they didn’t nerf low cooldown elites like basi and signet of rage because of lyssa they nerfed lyssa same logic applies here.

What do you plan to do?

After getting all classes to 80 except ranger(ele is my main) none of them play alike. Engineer is compared to ele but it isn’t similar in the slightest imo except you only get one weapon set.

For me personally as my last 80 I made is a engi it quickly became my second favorite class I like to press alot of buttons to do things other classes do with less presses. From a condition standpoint Engi is the Necro’s Ele if Direct Damage Ele is the Warriors Ele. You press alot of buttons to do different things that they do more simply. I haven’t played power Engi yet I will one day but I haven’t played condi Ele either or warrior.

I run power or condi on my thief and mesmer those are the only 2 classes I have that i switch between direct and condi depending on how I feel. Every other class I play more to what they specialize in.

That is just me personally engi has the depth that I enjoy on Ele it’s not so straight forward.

Like I said though every class is different if you want the higher up learning curves it is Ele and Engi then the other classes being a little more straight forward. I would probably say thief after Ele and Engi because it’s resource system is different then the other classes but I like to hop on my thief from time to time and it has depth but I do get bored with it unlike my Ele and Engi. Mesmers have alot of fun builds so build depth I would look at Mesmers you can go lockdown, shatter, condi, hybrid, phantasm etc…

ellesee.8297:

oZii.2864:

@ insanemaniac. I’ll take alook at the balth runes. I just really hate most on heal procs except for lyssa

lol i think you are missing the point of balth runes. it’s not about the heal procs. it’s baout the 7 second incendiary powder. it’s about the 10 second blowtorch and the permanent bomb burns. the burn on heal is just an added bonus. burning is how we do damage as condi engis.

Yea I understand what you mean I just don’t like many runes with on heal effects except for a few. That was the first thing I noticed from playing engi is that burns make up a large part of the dps.

I find bombs more fun then nades

You use them as area denial if people don’t come pressure with pistol. One of the things I figured out when it came to bombs is that you might not ever get to use them in a fight which is ok. I like bombs a lot but it just might happen that you don’t get to really use them.

LordByron.8369:

Because if you cast flamewall in front of a zerg in WWW, the server implodes…and that is something only necros should be able to do…

I m more concerned instead they didn t think about pets…
Its so easy to hit an illusion or a wall or anything wasting it.

Agreed a 3 target limit would be better. I had hopes for these traits but the more info I see I feel like for me personally stone heart is the only one looking decent.

The new respec anywhere makes build testing less of a hassleso you test on the fly come the patch so I’ll give them all a run eventually but on paper they are killing it with the icd choices on ashes and contingency.

It’s in the live stream from today you can check engi or necro forums for a pic of the new rune or reddit

@ elmobenchwarmer purity and generosity are being added both can be used both with a 60% chance to remove a condition. Obviously generosity is the transfer throw on rune of water which hasn’t been shown but my guess is proc chance increased to 25% based on runes shown so far.

I feel like melandru or hoelbrak need the food from WvW to make good use of OR a condition reduction trait. Bunker engis could run the tweaked ar with hoelbrak for -74% condi duration or throw on the -33% reduction cripple,chill, immob trait or both as a example to counter.

It’s possible though that they did buff the reductions on antitoxin, resistance, melandru, and hoelbrak but we haven’t seen any preview of those.