Guild Wars 2

Spooooooooooooooon!!!!

hooma.9642:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

hooma.9642:

sure, cause power builds only kill with aa.. thats why dodge is equal in both dmg parts.

/sarcasm

When was the last time you fought a condition build that only auto-attacked? I’m dead serious here, because I highly doubt you ever have. Likewise, when was the last time you fought a power build that didn’t auto-attack?

No build types only spam 1 in a fight (PvE mobs don’t count). None.

And yes, power builds can kill you with just their auto-attack. Faster, in fact.

and yes powerbuilds use aa too. but in a lesser freq. and only as time filler or for a little sustained dmg to soften the target. compare the amount of aa used and how many conditions are based on autoattack. u will see even with higher baseconditiondmg or more application on non-aa and no condis on aa they would not be such a great problem like now.

This is a l2p problem if you are running a direct damage build and aren’t using auto’s as part of your dodge bait setups then you are fighting noobs and using rotations to win.

To use a fighting game term footsies using your jab and light attacks from sometimes full screen to bait your opponent into a mistake.

Why wouldn’t you use your auto on a direct damage build to bait dodge rolls and defensive abilities? This is just digging deeper into the fighting system and playing on the human aspect of the fight.

It scales so well compared to power? Then you see threads like:

OMG I got backstabbed for 12k with 3k armor, OMG nerf Ele insta burst cause I died in 2 seconds but I have 3k armor

Toughness works well with vitality thats why its good its also good with healing power. On it’s own it isn’t that great if you don’t have any vitality and or healing power to help it.

If it was all about toughness eles would run with 10k health 3k armor and 300+ healing power but they don’t for a reason.

Not many people are running 1 gear all on it’s own. Also if this was a simulation PVT vs Zerker the PVT should win if they just auto attack each other.

You don’t run full pvt unless your trying to tank or troll just like you don’t go full clerics unless your trying to tank or troll. Most people mix and match.

Zerker gives you much more damage then PVT gear and it becomes much more visible when you come across someone else with sustain and build more towards a tanky build. A full zerker thief is scarier then a full pvt thief that you can ignore there is a reason why.

@insanemaniac

Isn’t that the best way to do this sort of test? Testing Zerker Scepter Necro vs Condi Scepter necro is unpractical. I understand to get the most accurate test but it isn’t what people will run.

I guess using uniform specs and just changing the gear would be a much easier time to determine condi vs power dps.

I would be interested in the DPS full rabid vs full dire I think like you said the criticals will make a big difference and dire is the tankier option of the 2. I know on my engineer with very low power pry bar hits for around 2k on a crit hiting a light or medium target. That is a substantial boost in DPS over a full dire set that might not crit pry bar at all.

I don’t understand how warrior mobility is to high when it has always been the same since launch.

It wasn’t to high pre-buff, now it is to high? That is one of the main separations of guardians and warriors as heavies is mobility.

Where was the nerf warrior mobility bandwagon formed, when warriors didn’t have the hs, cleansing ire, dogged march? Let me guess it was ok cause they didn’t have sustain in fight so it was ok to force them to run away. Give them a little tap and they could speed racer all they want.

Kak your second link is the same as your first

warriorjrd.8695:

Brando.1374:

EFWinters.5421:

crunchyraisin.6054:

Condition builds damage significantly slower than power builds. Condition builds by definition do their damage over time, and every profession has at least a few different ways to remove them.

Are some condi skills slightly too strong in havok groups and spvp? perhaps.

Are they OP? not at all

You are looking at it the wrong way though. Will a full dire necro deal damage slower than a full zerk necro? Probably. A PVT necro on the other hand? No chance in hell.

Im pretty sure a ptv necro can still out dps a full dire necro.

with dhumfire and terror? I highly doubt it.

It’s possible but we know realistically that a PVT necro is not going to run the same setup as a terrormancer condi necro. PVT would probably be 30/10/0/0/30 and the Condi is 30/20/X/X/X last 20 can go anywhere. If the PVT takes deathly perception then he probably can very easily out dps the condition necro because that is what PVT build would probably take.

I know people say condi builds only need 1 offensive stat but Power builds many of them slack precision because of traits.

If you know your necro’s a PVT build wiill have as much power as a full zerk build 30 critical damage with soul reaping investment and deathly perception going into DS with that would be 59% crit chance with only 10 point investment into precision while in DS.

After playing around moving the 10 points different places I ended up going 30/0/0/30/10 Looking at the poison uptime numbers I can still keep it up IF all of poison volly hits and static shot is still good at 15 second recharge.

I picked up backpack regenerator which I was’t running so my alchemy is invigorating speed, PI, and backpack regenerator.

So far I like it.

Best Condi runes imo this is across all classes. No particular order

Noble(if you get good might access)
Perplexity(if you have interrupts if not it’s probably still the best dps you can get but the drop off isn’t as bad if you chose one of the other runes)
Scavenging

I don’t like most on heal mechanics like scavenging or adventure. I like Noble better because the might stacks last.

BlackBeard.2873:

Just to clarify, Powerr (Tyler Chapman, one of the devs) clarified on a twitch stream that there aren’t that many BALANCE changes coming in the future patch, but the runes and sigil changes are a big thing. He said its less that they are making elementalists more powerful, but giving them a new role to fill and opening up build options. He promoted #elepocalypse because he is personally psyched for ele changes (I think it is his preferred class). Then again, Powerr thought that 0/30/10/30/0 was going to be a thing after the December patch, and was excited for that.

I just hope they nerf Warriors and Thieves to be more in-line with everyone else.

Yea Powerr is a Ele at heart he mained it early in the games life when he streamed and was on teams before he started working at Anet. I use to actually watch him alot in SWTOR and follow his Jedi Shadow builds he had a good hybrid that got nerfed over there lulz.

I think the community just needs a balance bone to catch.

.Even if it is just 1 change per class that hasn’t been posted it gets the creative minds going and theorycrafting.

Bone pl0x!!

Then you see a warrior with a hammer and bow and run him down. Gs has mobility but you have to set up its damage. Swords damage is pretty weak except final thrust. When I see a warrior running sword and gs I think troll run away build.

Any other condi build will smoke u. Your passives just won’t be enough to handle overload especially with no vigor after 2 dodge baits your done vs a engi or necro or warrior or p/d thief and pu Mesmer.

Those are top condi builds going right now in WvW they are all are weak against condi too except the thief, necro, warrior depends on if he has a bow.

You can help yourself with diamond skin to get the opener or move to 20 water. If you want to stay 30 earth I would go diamond skin with rock solid and ether renewal to help you stay topped off.

Should be strong against power build with that much toughest you should be hard to bring down I would just make sure you can handle other condi builds.

<3 Chaith and Genyen go GF

Zoose, Reikou, Reevzy, Denshee, Marvin, Caed and Grouch get some love cause they are in our Teamspeak alot mooching dat bandwith for free Voip.

Should be a good show will enjoy!

pza.8024:

Furienify.5738:

Not enough cleanses? They win. Enough cleanses? Stalemate, or they lose because they couldn’t outrun you.

some classes beeing able o outrun others by design is a different topic…
what’s wrong having to take enough condicleanses to fight a condiclass effectively? didn’t you die in GW1 too, if you fought a difficult encounter without condition removal?

what if you didn’t have to prepare yourself for a condition build? would conditions be viable? certainly not. they wouldn’t be a threat, or else you would have to take condition removal.

point is:
if you dont take condition removal, why should you win?
if you don’t take stability, why should you win against cc heavy classes?
if you dont have scissors with you, why should your rock win over paper?

get enough paper, rock and scissors in yor build to be able to react to every encounter. or just take rock and own scissors, but always fail to the slightest sheet of paper.

Agree 100% to add if you try and build for rock, paper, and scissors you spread yourself thin somewhere. This isn’t a bad thing either. If you didn’t trait to help against condi’s then you would probably just grab more damage modifiers I know I would if there was no such thing as conditions. Thieves would start moving to even more damage less shadow arts certainly no need to get shadows embrace. No need for cleansing ire or dogged march, no need for Mesmer to get mender’s purity etc.

The meta would be glass and bunkers with not much being able to keep bunkers in check except maybe the burstiest of thieves. People would to complaining about bunkers. Especially in WvW the 1vX champs would have less 1vX’s wins eventually everyone would migrate to bunker because it’s safer then going glass.

Mostly speculation on my part but I don’t see it going any other way if conditions where needed to become an afterthought.

Bombsaway.7198:

Well, rather than say other people simply need to love your warrior. . . .

The general consensus is that the warrior became OP when ANET tried to quickly move them from being useless to useful.

The main disadvantage of the warrior was supposed to be (if you look at the original builds) condition damage. Now, the warrior is frankly far too able to remove conditions and avoid being locked down. Add passive healing, high toughness and high armor and you simply have too many benefits and not enough weaknesses.

Cleansing Ire and Dogged March are the biggest problems. Warriors should get locked down more and should take more condition damage with fewer cleanses. But God help another class that winds up toe to toe with you.

You need a pretty big claw back (nerf) of the abilities ANET put in after launch (cleansing ire, dogged march and healing signet) in that order.

They said warrior use to be like it is now. They dialed it back on purpose before launch. People said warrior needs to be viable etc. They didn’t even give warrior the Healing Signet buff upfront when they did the other buffs to mace, and zerker stance etc. When they introduced those the community said where is the healing that you posted? Chap responded with we wanted to see how these other buffs work first BUT if you guys think it should go in to help the warrior ok. Then healing went in on a patch that wasn’t a balance patch. The other buffs went in on the balance patch healing came later after the community asked for it.

If I’m not mistaken there was leaked notes around that time and everyone knew what was coming for healing signet but it didn’t make it in that specific patch but a later one after people asked for it. It was already prepared and ready to go with the tweaked numbers.

I was heavy on the warrior forums at that time. I really don’t want to dig for that information. The statement about how the warrior was before release isn’t hard to find though just look at the OLD SOTG.

I think warrior is fine personally I was playing my warrior before those buffs came and warrior was the lowest profession in s/tPvP. In WvW it was ok but more of a thief with no stealth a elementalist with no sustain, go in the fight do some damage run out of the fight was the old warrior. Definitely not fun at all and didn’t fit what I imagine a warrior to be. Some would say it required more skill then but I beg to differe, because anyone decent would put you at a health deficit and you “stall” till surge is up again. Thieves with 30 SA and shadow rejuvenation had better sustain then warriors that was one of the main points brought up alot is how the squishy thief can stay in the thick of it better then the heavy armored warrior.

People don’t like to die in 1v1’s people don’t like things they can’t secure a kill on if they are winning. That is where most of the complaints come from. If the Warrior was slow and had no mobility people wouldn’t complain as much about warrior but since it has mobility and sustain people complain(mobility is greatly tied to weapon).

Yea this is easily an adept tier trait that would be great at adept.

The problem is nothing in adept currently is worth moving up to master. Unless they just move a trait just for the sake of it(something I am not a fan of)

Arcane Abatement, Soothing Wave, Cantrip mastery, Shard of Ice, Piercing Shards, and Vital Striking.

The other problem is moving any of these up to master tier and then say buffing them to make them more master tier worthy would you still take them over cleansing wave?

As a 30 water elementalist I can do without cleansing wave and grab soothing disruption or perhaps a buffed soothing wave could work. Those that only have 20 in water cleansing is a much better option.

Running the 20/10/0/20/10 condi build with pistol shield bombs. Im thinking of moving 10 points from explosives.

I have invigorating speed, and protection injection in alchemy.

I’m thinking either to go 30 alchemy for backpack regne or 20 firearms for precise infusion for perma vigor. Possibly 20 tools for cd on toolkit. Maybe even 10 inventions for protective shield.

Engineer has really great traits so I wanted to see what you guys think.

I was impressed with the damage i saw from wolfineers celestial grenades bleed ticks for 99 and crits for 1k-1,5k. But celestial will take a crit dmg hit in the ferocity patch.

Didn’t realize this was a op troll thread I wasted valuable energy responding to this in the profession forums.

Anyway the op got pretty much the same answers here that he got there.

Using the same parameters in this test which is be a power build and use one skill walk away and kill someone that stands there with 15.5k hp.

This should be able to be done with:

Meteor shower on a glass ele
Summon fire elemental
Summon hounds of Balthazar
Any power ranger
Any Mesmer
Thieves guild
Ambush trap thief might be able to pull this off.

These would recreate the same scenario in a power build and result in a kill of a 15.5k afk person.

Mesmer and rangers can always do this with the Mesmer killing 2 afk people summon duelist on one zerker on the other I believe leash range is 1500?

EDIT: forgot to add any necromancers minion.

Here is the video on my phone so sorry for double post. This is s/d + p/d power same trait setup as the typical p/d condi running around right now but much more fun. At the end he kills a warrior and 2 thieves come after him d/d power and p/d condi the p/d is even running smoke screen which is a good counter to other p/d thieves.

Amon is a good thief but this shows 30 trick is very very good there is a reason 30 trick is sPvP meta now. Try running old school p/d condi. and it is a lot harder to kill people with 20/0/30/20/0 or 0/0/30/20/20. Which where the old builds before sleight of hand buff and perp runes introduced.

Overlord.1035:

Fade.7658:

Lol, OP posted this in the thief forums as well. If you want thieves nerfed, just come out and say it, don’t hyperbolize.

I DO NOT want thief to be nerfed I actually think zerker thief is a little under powered in the current meta. My main has always been thief and it is the class I most enjoy playing. What I want nerfed is everything this particular build represents. Perplex runes and dire armor and so OP it is insane and they are slowly killing most other builds.

I was not exaggerating at all this was an exact recount of what happened I should not be able to fight and win 3v1 against three decent players with a build I have played for under an hour.

They couldn’t have been decent if you won. A 30 trickery s/d thief should wreck you because his steal is on a cool down like yours with daze. He can remove condi without stealth and has evades ready for when you try to sneak attack. Any 30 trick thief should win against p/d condi sleight of hand is a very strong gm trait you should try it in a power build sometime.

Any decent roamer would check your food if they saw you and automatically assumed perplexity and been ready. I can’t think of any combination of roaming builds with 3 decent players that you should outright win. Maybe d/d thieves. 3 good players won’t stand around and be CnD fodder unless a Mesmer is around or ranger not paying attention to his pet.

I’m not saying it isn’t good. It is IMO the best general purpose dueling build as it is the one condi build that can handle a necro. Still it isn’t a guaranteed win especially 3v1.

Look up amonatory’s thief video he posted on the forum. 30 trickery s/d and p/d power and watch him wreck a d/p thief and a p/d condi thief just after killing a warrior.

This had been my experience also with 30 trick in a power build with s/d you just roll over p/d condi thieves with it as long as you know how p/d condi plays

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

ThiBash.5634:

The reason you cannot make Signet of Restoration as powerful as Healing Signet is because of the rest of the skills in the elementalist’s kitten nal.

It will NEVER be as strong as Healing Signet, everyone knows it. Persoanlly i don’t like the current PER a cast design. Personally think it would be better when you take damage and it heals you for a set % of the damage taken or something.

Though, i don’t think we will ever have it “just right” currently its on the extreme side with Healing Signet on one side where you do nothing and the ele on the other side where you have to be using/spamming skills to be getting heals.

Like signet of Vamperism for Necros who never use that? They can’t even touch a elementalists sustain/burst healing and they get a really weak version of life style on this.

Per cast is fine.

Suggestions = turn Ele in warriors.

Nobody complains about SOR because you have to do something to get the heals

The problem with SOR is channel skills have channels proc the heal should fix the problem with other sets not being able to maximize the heal.

P/D thief is strong but it is one of those builds that you can ignore depending on what you are running i.e any of the normal roaming builds for other classes. Any 30 shadow arts 30 trickery power build should usually beat it. 10/0/30/0/30 Power build with S/D + P/D or D/P should come out on top of P/D condi with perplex.

It’s been around for along time the phase of complaining about it kind of passed Wild Bill and his vids made it popular perlexity makes it stronger but it does that for any condi build/hybrid.

As long as you deny Cloak and dagger you kill a large part of it’s dps and are careful of shadowshot. Body shot immob stacking is a bit ridiculous though.

It’s not perplexity that is the issue. I don’t even know if there is a issue it has all the stealth strengths a thief has with 30 shadow arts and it is a condition build.

Snuffles runs like all PVT armor and abuses hidden killer with D/P, it’s annoying (very annoying) to fight but I’ve seen her beat alot of people with it.

Run 10/0/30/0/30 P/D power build and it is the same playstyle and you kill much faster just not as fast as D/D or D/P.

I’m new to Engi but I main Elementalist so I like the extra complexity of pressing buttons. In WvW I don’t see many Engi’s compared to other classes.

@Thibash you must add in adrenal health every warrior take it. 15 points in defense/healing power line.

@gameslayer Full clerics is fun you can actually kill in full clerics if you put on boon duration. If you come across another bunker then you can’t or extra tanky warrior also. Anyone running semi glassy you can kill though.

This is kind of why I feel elementalist damage that gets complained about alot is fine. You do more damage in full healing gear then a Guardian can even think about. It is much easier for me to kill in 0/10/0/30/30 in clerics on my ele then it is on 0/0/10/30/30 for guardian which is essentially 30 water 30 arcana for them. Key ingredient why they can’t do it is fury is very limited on a guardian even with meds.

Silhouette.5631:

The problems in the Stats ya see. A Power use and a Condi user walk up to each other. The Condi user says hes going to pick vitality as a sub stat so he’ll survive longer. The Power user says fine and does the same. The Condi user says he’ll also grab toughness to reduce the other guys damage. The Power user says fine and does the same. The Condi user laughs as hes just won.

A power user and a Condi user go picking their skills. The Condi user grabs some heals to stay alive longer. The Power user does the same. The Condi user laughs as hes just won

A Condi user and a Power user are deciding what traits to get. The Condi user grabs some traits to proc his conditions more. The power user in rebuttal grabs some traits to help him remove more conditions….you see where Im going with this right?

This is problem people think going defensive is the solution to fighting a conditon build when that is trying to play the same game as them.

Direct damage is front loaded damage conditions are backloaded. If you start building to deal with backloaded damage you also start moving your damage and spreading it out.

Direct Damage guy walks up to another Direct damage guy. Lets call them A and B.

A takes all the damage traits that he can lets say something like 30/30/10/0/0

B takes the same trait lines 30/30/10/0/0 but takes all the defensive stuff.

Both using full zerker

A’s best defense is his offense B still has good offense but all defensive traits he can’t out dps A no matter how much he tried.

The thief running 30/30/10 is a greater threat to the necro then the one running 10/30/30. The 7-8k backstabs are a greater threat then the 5-6k the first built to blow stuff up the second built safe to give it the best chance to fight everything.
The 6k iZerker from the mesmer is much more of a threat then the 4k.

Using your example the Direct damage guy would be better off grabbing some decent vitality to not get one shotted by a thief and get some offense in his build instead of what it sounds like going soldiers.

Any class can essentially stalemate any condition build out there if they take their best condition management traits pack on healing power. There is not much the condition build can do. The full glass direct damage build on the other hand can still kill the bunker.

If you haven’t tried it take whatever your main is and build it as bunker as you can to deal with conditions grab traits a sprinkle of vitality and pack on the healing power. Then take that same build and try to build it to handle direct damage. You will be able to not die against the condition build but direct damage glass can still kill you. There is nothing the condition build can do to overcome your defensive setup but the glass can.

I have done this with 5 of my 7 classes and you can build a Thief, Mesmer, Warrior, Elementalist, Guardian, to make conditions laughable. Those same builds can still get killed though by burst/glass direct damage.

Disagree

1. Changes nothing except the dependency on condition duration and makes power builds better because they have inherent conditions on their weapons.

2. What? Add measurements to AOE cleanses? What is that I don’t know do a timer thingy cause it sounds good I’ll suggest it. Nerf Soldier Runes and Null fields? Cause Mesmer condition removal is strong? What’s next nerf aegis, toughness, and protection for direct damage?

Not sure I’m following 4. Have to know what the cap per player. To low then no condition build stands a chance against burst damage. Getting 10 bleed stacks to stick on someone for more then a few seconds usually doesn’t happen until you get around to the second rotation or later of your setup IF you land it. At the beginning of a fight your condi pressure is only good if you can land it same with direct damage. Pindowns, fear necro setups etc are more likely to land later then at the beginning of an engagement unless the person isn’t paying attention which happens and apart of the game.

People play dots because they like to kill people with dots. Your first suggestion makes someone running Power with Sword/Shield Greatsword warrior for example stronger. Sure I would take stronger shorter duration bleeds on my Direct damage sword setup.

I enjoyed the video the first fight was boring skipped that.

Lol that pu mesmer switched to greatsword and change to the mirror of anguish trait lol. Roamers get so kitten when they lose a fight they think they are suppose to win cause their build is suppose to win lol.

It is like that for every damage type.

In small scale fights a glass cannon has the chance to be more effective then in a large fight. In large fights glass cannons have to pick off out of place people which is essentially making a little small scale fight next to a large scale one. If the large group see’s 2-3 people fight 2-3 of their stragglers goes to protect them and the 2-3 glass cannons large group sees that then you have a large fight again.

It sounds easy if programming was magic like “hey do this” cause it sounds good kind of thing snap fingers and it’s done but it doesn’t work like that and would probably cause more problems.

Direct damage can kill you in a large fight like it can in a small scale fight both can be slow or quick in both scenarios. In a large scale fight you can stay up longer many times because of the support skills going off around but you can also get more damage because of things like spotter, and might stacks etc etc.

There is no difference conditions and direct damage are both effected by large and small scale fights. Condition damage isn’t as effective in large scale but neither is direct damage shout heals going off, aegis procs, combo fields, strength in numbers.

Also how do you determine what is large and small scale that satisfies the entire population of guild wars 2. Low tier servers example of large scale is probably different then tier 1’s.

Some people aren’t looking at the discussion here.

This is using impale as support to claim conditions are to strong. Impale is an outlier and has been since release nobody complained about it cause lol condi warrior back then.

It’s like a kill shot putting out 20k which it can and saying power is out of control. The fact that kill shot is easily telegraphed doent matter it’s just about the final result.

Impale is a outlier skill since release since you can’t cleanse it. Just reduce its damage until the debuff is gone.

KarsaiB.9475:

No, no, no, no. Bring back our old sustain and we’ll be just as equally broken as we used to a year ago. Even more than a year ago.

We don’t need our sustain to be buffed. We need an overall damage reduction across all classes in tpvp (especially looking at thief and necro), including ourselves.
Also, nerf the ability that warrior has to stand on a node while keeping opponents at bay and unable to contest without eating 1000000 aoes.
>>> /need other game modes.

“winky face @Allie”

You say we like you play ele but don’t know about its nerf history.

You won’t be broken like before because you can’t ether renewal in mist form anymore. Signet of restoration had a bug that healed to much with evasive arcana dodges in earth.
RTL was bugged and you could go 1500 range and reset easy.

Unless Anet decides to revert bugs which I doubt the actual intended sustain was fine.

Those where the problems the intended healing was fine. You think SOR old levels really would make ele op without the above changes that happened?

So that you know your durability and when to cleanse or disengage? You should be able to figure this out now.

This is like asking for a power meter of your attackers who are direct damage. So thief backstabs you for 6k you want something to show up and tell you is power crit damage and crit chance? If you look at your character you can see how much the conditions are ticking for.

Impale is an exception to the rule since you can’t cleanse it. Impale though has always been like this back when it was bleeds because the sword is stuck inside you. It did the same thing bleeds stack up to five and then drop back down to 1 now it’s torment instead of impale.

It’s a unique skill because the best you can do is cleanse it down to I think 1 stack but it builds back up if it is still on the uptick of the debuff. The impale is a debuff. It’s not a good representation of the other condition damage skills in the game nothing else is like it.

It could be changed to making 1 stack on hit and the 4 others when ripped. The animation is easy to see but can get lost when there is alot going. It is the only thing that is dangerous on a S/S warrior though the bleeds are easily cleansed and the leap is easily dodged.

The bow on a condition warrior is more dangerous then S/S. Impale can spell G/G but that doesn’t matter if its a condi warrior or a power one and it’s more dangerous on a power warrior.

Bug report forums perhaps?

Stand The Wall.6987:

DanSH.6143:

…. most rune sets are just simply bad.

Yea that is the main problem there isn’t any real other choices and from playing so long alot of people have tried alot of the runes.

Lyssa isn’t really spammable no smart thief uses basi on cooldown. Need some better competition first before lyssa needs to be looked at for nerfing.

That last rune that gives aegis on signet use had potential but they gave the cooldown a bit to long/aegis to short. CD would be ok if the aegis was decent length.

This is more PvP not a PvX thing. WvW lyssa is ok but I don’t know if alot of people complain about it being OP I’ve never heard anyone complain about Lyssa in WvW.

This is a Roaming issue what should first be identified is what build YOU are running. I bet it falls in the line of someone else will call it cheesy.

All the roamer builds are almost always the same. Every roamer of one type usually complains about another roamers build because sure they might be able to beat 1 roamer using a roamer build but 2 roamers using a roamer builds is alot harder to pull off.

How is it cheese is if everyone is running just about the same thing when they are roaming.

Condi engi, pu mesmer, s/d thief, s/p thief, p/d thief, d/p thief, any warrior build with mobility, terrormancer.

The only roamer build nobody really complains about is meditation guards because they can kill them easier using any of the above.

I have 7 classes at 80 roam on all of them ran all the popular roaming type of builds and the only 1 that I can say has the best chance against most roaming builds out there is P/D condi thief the funny thing is that a Meditation guard can easily beat at a P/D thief if played right.

It’s suppose to be PvP and WvW but somehow PU mesmer made it on there which I don’t understand.

Also to add in fighting games now most characters have different health. Ryu’s jab doesn’t do the same damage as Bison’s jab though they are both jabs and they have different frame data.

Most people don’t know that characters in fighting games have different health and that isn’t always the case but usually in capcom games characters have different health.

Phoenix has low health in MvC 3 and if you kill her with 5 bars she turns into Dark Phoenix the best character in the game but also has the lowest health. There is no counter play to characters base health its there it’s passive and it’s in most fighting games today and has been for a while.

That is not what the article is saying. It even states that every game has a best something.

Take an RTS like Starcraft 2 if you look at the tournament wins for Wings of Liberty it looks like Terran is the best race since it has the most wins and definitely dominated the early part of that game. That doesn’t mean all pro players used terran. At one point in time not much changed and Zerg was winning everything a strategy was found Max Roaches popularized by Stephano and it won over and over and over again. Players had to adapt find a strategy to beat it they did. Blizzard didn’t step in and nerf roaches because Max roach started beating everything.

Just because something is the best doesn’t mean you have to play it and doesn’t mean it can’t be countered.

Warrior isn’t the best profession in the game it might at the moment be the most used in more parts of the game and is never bad.

Playing to win in Guild Wars 2 isn’t making all Warrior teams because all warriors don’t = win it might just reduce you chances of failure but it doesn’t guarantee winning.

If 5 warrior comps was the = win then teams would run 5 warriors. They aren’t running 5 warrior comps because they are taking the moral high ground they aren’t running it because it doesn’t work. So warrior doesn’t = win.

MMO’s have passives in place I put on precision I get passive crits, put on power passively boosts my damage etc etc etc.

Fighting games do have passive effects and they do have patches just look up street fight IV revisions or Virtua Fighter 5 revisions A.B.C. and D.

Passive in fighting games is Blocking Highs for example they all have different power all have different effects but you press or hold block and block them all. A fire ball is a high just like a standing jab and does chip damage. Which means it does damage the only way to avoid it is to say jump.

Super meters Street Fighter 2 are passive or Rage meters in Tekken are passive both give you a damage increase the super meter gives you extra damage on a special attack or shadow moves that require say just pressing light punch and light kick together but using the same Dragon punch move. Rage meters give you extra damage at X% health.

Fighting games have passives more so now then they did before as companies started to throw a little bit of RPG element into their games to spice it up. It isn’t a large part of the game but if a fighting game ships without some kind of meter that does something it is now looked at strange.

If I played Super Street fighter 2 then moved to Super Street Fighter 2 turbo I build meter passively playing the exact same way I did before. Release date 1994 passive has been in fighting games a long time now.

Interesting test thanks for taking the time. This might just be the one weapon that can make the claim to kill faster as condi over power and then it isn’t always the case against medium and I’m sure light armor.

I think that fit very well with how alot of complaint threads look.

If build A beats build B then it is cheese and to good while Build C can have no problems at all with A but get’s rolled by B.

B complains about A and wants it nerfed and C complains about B and wants to nerf it.

B defends himself against C saying he is balanced and that we need to be looking at A, C disagree’s and finds A easy to beat and tells B to L2P. The cycle goes on forever.

Using streetfighter as reference say 5 characters in game have a dive kick. They are usually top tier in the early life of the game as players get better and the tech evolves 1 or 2 dive kick characters usually only stay top tier.

Ryu will always be a mid-top tier character in any streetfighter game because people are always familiar with him and can usually pick him up do well in any game he is in. At the end of that current games life Ryu might not be the top tier character and usually isn’t not to say he can’t win a tournament but he isn’t usually considered the S-tier character.

This is very good read and completely right as someone who will always love fighting games more then other games it is correct. It isn’t exclusive to fighting games and that can be applied to other genres like starcraft. I do believed this can also be applied to Guild Wars 2.

Guild Wars 2 PvP is infant it isn’t like any other games PvP. So the top players in Guild Wars 2 deserve to be there but they don’t have as much experience with this type of PvP as say someone who always played fighting games and picks up Marvel vs Capcom 3. Or starcraft and moved to starcraft 2.

If I played say SWTOR PvP for 10 years(just an example) very little of it I could apply to Guild Wars 2.

If I played all the streetfight 2 series for say 10 years I could probably figure out most a characters move set all on my own in Streetfighter 4. I could use tekken as that has always been my favorite fighting game. If you play Tekken 1 through 5 you can pick up Tekken 6 get the basics and advance much quicker then someone that picked up 5 and then moved on to Tekken 6. Since my learning of new mechanics is accelerated because of my previous experience I can get better faster and get deeper into the higher level play faster. Not always the case but usually holds true.

Daigo is considered the best streetfighter player in the world and he will always be one of the best streetfighter players as long as the series continues and he continues to play. Daigo wouldn’t automatically be one of the best Tekken players if he just decided to go play Tekken in the world tournament and would probably be out in the first round.

So the guild wars 2 players are top but the guild wars 2 pvp is infant. If a guild wars 3 came out and the top players now picked that up and the pvp is similar at the core those top players would be top there also. If you did Guild Wars 2 PvP as a top player and that was your only MMO ever then moved to Everquest next it probably doesn’t translate well there.

Anyway I got sidetracked I love fighting games and that was a great read and relevant.

I get through diamond skin with this to be exact I don’t know exactly what they are running but every ele I found I have been able to get through it with this in WvW. If I can’t hit prybar then I have to kite till it’s up again can’t say how I feel about that overall. Sure it’s there if your fighting only condis or dueling but does nothing against power builds but the same can be said about automated response and people call that trait OP. So I don’t know I think both are fine and they work if you can chose your battles.

Joltz.8596:

well the info is much appreciated but im strictly talking about the staff Ele topic. i understand about the advantages of other professions. im quite good with the skills i have, its just an overall way too squishy complaint more than anything. plenty of others seem to agree browsing around the forums

I disagree that Mesmer is more a caster then Ele a Mesmer is totally different then anything I seen in another game and it’s staff is 100% a defensive weapon that kills only if the person decides to stay and fight you.

About Staff Ele it is more ranged nuker but you need others to set you up/preoccupy the enemy. You can setup your only damage it is possible but you aren’t 1v1ing really with it. You can kill cc’d groups of 5 if is setup right but if it was easy to kill 5 people with a staff ele everyone would run staff ele.

Range is generally weaker in this game then melee that goes for all professions. There a few exception skills that do reliable good damage at range but Melee>range in most cases and is usually better at consistent damage. I agree with that it’s probably why ranger is the 2nd most popular profession for some reason at last count like a bunch of people wanted to 1 spam and win or something.

The damage is there on staff but you need a little bit of help to kill anyone paying attention to you.

With the way the game is as a visual game based on ingame cue’s you can sit in the back and rain down good extra dps on people that can’t see you past other people.

This is from a WvW perspective. I am no expert on PvE there you can tag decent with staff provided the mobs are being bunched up to maximize dps.

Really no class in the game has a great dps staff the best burst skill on staff I can think of is a Mesmer warlock in a power build and you have 5+ conditions on you for a surprise 10k+ hit but the rest of the staff is crap for direct damage save maybe the 30 second chaos storm if something stays in it.

Nobody’s staff is awesome dps and it would be just my guess Ele is #1 for staff dps with guardian coming in second.

Been playing Engi for about a week now 1 prybar is usually enough to get the ele down below the threshold and I’m in full dire with rabid/apothecary trinkets I think I have like 1225 power and 20% chance to crit 15 crit damage. If I miss that prybar though I am in for a world of hurt until it comes up again. Prybar has good direct damage though.

I think on the Necro side if diamond skin become a thing more condi necros will run focus for the boon strip and extra damage since it can hit pretty hard. Dagger off hand doesn’t have the necessary direct damage to get through it.

I suspect any condi build running rabid can get past it. The thing is if a diamond skin Ele build could be made that does enough damage and has enough vit I don’t think there really is one though not one that makes people give up zephyr’s boon.

A ele can bunker with the trait if they like though but I don’t see it being a difference maker if your build is designed to burst/do damage since you probably have a low hp pool to begin with.

Yup they work that way

Cynz.9437:

look at ferocity change, look at all new sigils and runes… it is obvious there is strong favoritism toward condition dmg in pvp/wvw

The ferocity change is geared toward PvE and conditions suck in PvE. The new runes are more conditions based I’ll agree with that. Tormenting, Perplexity, antitoxin and sunless vs exuberance and the rune that is like melandru with aegis on signet use. Though prior to you had altruism and mad king runes introduced.

So it would be 4 condi runes added and 1 power rune, 3 other runes though they are direct damage rune more so then condi as even warriors run melandru on direct damage builds.

Total in game you have:

13 condition damage runes

Direct damage runes:

17 Power based runes

5 precision based runes

3 critical damage runes

2 other runes divinity and travler so lets call that direct damage
Rune of infiltration.

Runes largely favor direct damage purely based on how many ingame there is and whats been added since launch. Don’t feel like looking at sigils. This is just being technical on the classifications though as direct damage builds will pick up things like melandru rune of earth etc etc etc. Condi builds rarely very rarely will run a rune that isn’t condi based.

So when the new rune and sigil changes comes that will show what? A favoritism toward direct damage builds? Since they will have worked on more direct damage runes then condition runes simply because there are more direct damage runes so direct damage runes used up more of their balancing time.

My current look and I love it.