Guild Wars 2

phaeris.7604:

All i see in WvW are hambow warriors.

Its ridiculous how easy and strong they are to use. They put all the best skills in two lines.

You see no mobility hambow warriors in WvW? If you see them in WvW they are zerging or small man because they can’t escape anybody. There is no points you have to contest so why stand in combustive shot? Impatience.

I have given up on “Pro” players and their balance suggestion. I’ll post this here since you reference Phantaram. Also since many people seem to think the Devs don’t know what their doing. look at the video to stroll down memory lane. The devs wanted to bring other classes up. The players wanted nerfs I Posted this a while back in Ele forums. “Pro” players should have just as much weight as any other player so honestly I could care less what the words of phantaram are in regards to balance. Many of those people said they where quitting then came back and still stream GW2.

It was nerfed because partly because Top sPvP players at the time said that ele was to strong etc. etc. I can dig it up again but in the video when elementalist was brought up as to strong Joh Peters and Chap both seemed surprised.

Let us look down memory lane shall we in regards to Elementalist:

First SOTG – http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2guru/b/365009593 Elementalist discussion @ 45:51

Elementalist is first classed discussed. Jon Peter’s seemed to think at that time that ele was fine surprised people thought it was strong. Chap sounds like he would side with how we all feel now about Ele that is a high skill cap so it rewards you. The other players don’t seem to feel the same way influenced by the Players, changes/nerfs to ele happened after that video.

I think looking back at this video it was a l2p issue on the playerbase as a whole and people didn’t know how the ele worked or how to counter it. So ele was nerfed other classes brought up which seemed to be the devs initial intention anyway but for months it was Ele =OP on the forums so they nerfed Ele because players in the SOTG solidified the forums complaints. The better approach would have been to bring the other classes up to the levels that we see now that is what they seemed to want to do going by the video but somewhere it didn’t happen.

April 2013 – The Ele nerf patch!

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2guru/b/396007412 Elementalist @ 34:42

This is the RTL/Mist Form/ Cleansing Water(pvp) nerf patch. Even after the changes Symbolic states that he doesn’t think the Cleansing Water nerf will have much impact on how well Ele’s can deal with conditions. Chap states internally it showed other wise (which we all know is totally correct). If I remember Symbolic plays/played necromancer. Mist form change also hit engineers because they could go tiny mode and use their skills also.

I think it was listening to the players I think pushed them to make changes. The bases of the argument at the beginning of the first video was that Teams would bring 2-3 eles so there has to be a problem with eles.

If ele was never nerfed and the classes we have today are the classes that we had back then would Ele be OP? In my opinion nobody would think its op. It also would compete with warrior in the current meta and probably still wouldn’t have a place currently.

That is what I am wondering last time they did a preview of the 10 December Patch nothing changed between that and the actual patch.

I still don’t understand where this vigor hate is coming from. It doesn’t make sense. Less vigor uptime essentially means TTK is even shorter.

Introp.8465:

they should remove weapons, give everyone 50k standart hp, same fist skills
oh boy that would promote diversity im i right?
every class is unique, deal with it. or change game, no 1 is keeping u chained to play it

You forgot to remove dodging also.

We wouldn’t need to even play the game anymore we could just spreadsheet everything. That is what it seems like people want to talk about EHP and Effective power all day. Remove dodging and Make people miss by RNG.

Are these suggestion so that Rangers can be used in GvG’s? Small scale boons don’t really do much it really is stability is the kicker in larger fights but that is because it is doing its job. You use CC to setup big damage they enemy knows you want to use CC to setup big damage so they pop stability to counter your CC. I don’t see a problem with this.

I assume this is about boon duratiion?

Check this link and time
@ 16:14
http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/496005243

They talk about the rune changes Roy states that they are aware that people like to mix and match with boon duration. He then says a specific set has been given boon duration.

They give an example of their rune rework using rune of strength. Which is also a popular 2/2/2/ rune with might stackers.

Rune of strength will now look like +175 power(up from 165 currently), +45% might duration, 25% chance to get might on proc and the +5% damage under the effects of might. So the old 20% might duration from rune of strength is now 45%.

Apply that design to a boon duration rune and your choices are Altruism, Water, or Monk getting +45% boon duration. I don’t think it will be altruism but it could possibly it. With the fury and might on heal makes it look very good. The smart design is All 3 of those getting 45% boon duration because they will compete with each other. Water would be healing power with condi removal lets say 25% chance to remove a condition using the rune of strength example. That cooldown needs to be dropped though cause 30 secs is to long.

Anyway, all signs point to you still being able to get +45% boon duration.

I think Anet is banking on people wanting the raw stat that comes with it. I would never want to slot 45% boon duration on my warrior or thief if it came with 175 healing power. Instead I would take the +45% might duration and the 175 power along with the 5% extra damage from strength instead.

None of the boon duration runes Altruism or Water will go up in price much since they can be crafted and monk is from a dungeon I wouldn’t worry about a skyrocket price jump.

silvershadez.8421:

LordByron.8369:

oZii.2864:

I think they would really have to keep it as close to it’s current damage levels right now to save it.

+1000 to this…
boosting stats is a lazy and useless solution.

They need to keep either ferocity on par with zzojia or boos significantly power.

Boosting power to the level of berserker, soldier, or valkyrie would make these sets obsolete.

Sometimes I think you guys want too much. On set to fit for every role. Celestial should be none: neither the best DPS nor the best defensive option. It allready has the most amount of stats as it is. Which can be very powerful in certain setups. Getting crit DMG that is on par with berserker or valkyrie or cavalier is just a no go. As this would make the 3 mentioned kinda less atractive either.

No it doesn’t because of how the damage in this game works. Part of the problem is people want to go all out on celestial thinking that it does the same damage as zerker that somehow crit damage allows you to sacrifice 300-400 power.

Somewhere in guild wars 2 life cycle people got this notion that crit damage > power. A full celestial armor set currently gives you 19 crit damage a full zerker set gives you 17 most people know that the zerker does more damage and the reason why, yet people still think crit damage > power.

There is nothing wrong with celestial having as much crit damage or 1 more then a zerker piece because it still has low power. Celestial was such a good addition because it satisfied peoples weird fixation with critical damage at the cost of power.

Total stats means nothing why? If I have 10 total precision already and add 1 precision to my build does my critical chance go up? No. If I add 1 condition damage to my build when I have 2 total do my bleeds or burns go up? If I add 1 healing power will my signet of restoration heal me for 1 point more? My cleansing wave will but my SOR wont. If I add 1 vitality though I gain 10 health. The stats are not equal.

If celestial can’t compete damage wise with knights which is probably its main competitor why take celestial? Celestial will end up bottom bin like rampagers and magi’s if they don’t keep it’s damage output similar to what it is now. The crit damage is the saving grace of why it will get used. If it can’t keep up damage wise then people will still run it because they think the stats are equal.

lol

What? If they announce it now people will buy them up and hoard them. If you pay attention to the TP people are already hoarding runes and sigils they think will be going up in price. I know I have some The TP is safe right now as the price has started to go down after the stream many runes shot up in price. A preview will blow it up again. I think they will do a blog post like they did with MF at least that what it sound like they said was coming.

I found this on reddit what do you guys think of this speculation of the change? It looks pretty solid. I didn’t think to consider the trait lines to give a good idea of what the change would be.

http://i.imgur.com/ag4NqGw.jpg

Is this so that all the feedback since the stream can be complied into one place? Most of this has been discussed at length and there are transcripts from the Stream in each profession forums aswell as this one.

Elementalist changes I am fine with. Is there more though?

Is focus being looked at or do you feel that focus is fine?

Since we are one of the main classes that this would hit.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Celestial-Ferocity-nerf/3567442

Roy Cronacher.1576:

I wanted to stop by and say thanks for the feedback. We do feel that the celestial stat set will be hit the hardest with the upcoming critical damage changes, so we are looking at possibly boosting the overall stats by a small amount.

Also the celestial stat set in PvP is using a much lower stat multipliers than the PvE versions so we will be looking at changing this as well. Nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to let guys know this is something we are discussing.

I think they would really have to keep it as close to it’s current damage levels right now to save it.

No Walking.6349:

Call it a broken thread all you want. The fact that everyone is roaming with Engis, and that you’re all here relentlessly defending a broken build, just goes to show how OP it is. I know you are all enjoying roflstomping people in WvW, but honestly it’s OP and has to end…just like it did with DD eles.

Back when Ele was considered “OP in WvW”. There was no dhuumfire necros, no perp rune P/D thieves, no good sustaining Warriors(no healing signet buff), S/D Thieves was not popular and flanking strike was unreliable for boon stripping, Thieves didn’t think about going 30 trick and sleight of hand wasn’t as good, No PU Mesmers shatter was the thing and would wreck a D/D Ele then and still does now just alot of roamers run PU because that is better to handle multiple oppenents.

I main D/D ele and have 6 of the 8 classes at 80 played since launch. You sound like you only know about 1 or maybe 2 classes. What you describe doesn’t take into account buffs to other classes.

No Walking.6349:

So Anet did away with the ridiculously OP DD ele. They could do massive damage, heal to full in no time, stack ridiculous conditions, and keep conditions off all with a single build. They were the bane of 1v1 and small group skirmishes. I’m sure every single Engineer in these forums would agree that DD eles needed a nerf back when they were crazy OP. Cheers to you for nerfing them

Now with that being said….why would you go and give all those exact same abilities to engineers. Kit engineers are the new DD ele, and are in need of a serious nerf. Thanks Anet in advance for balancing this ridiculously OP class.

Don’t have a Engi just stopped by the Engi forums saw this had to reply.

There was no massive damage for D/D Ele. It was build up damage through might stacks the longer the fight the better for a D/D Ele. Ridiculous conditions on a Ele where that at? Burning and Bleed? Did you ever come across a Ele and think I need more condition removal to fight Eles?

I see you reference WvW in your argument but Ele in WvW isn’t really that much different then before. You can keep vigor up just as much as before. Cleansing Water is only nerfed in sPvP which is where all the condi removal really comes from even WvW ele’s think it was nerfed in both modes it isn’t. The biggest hit was RTL resetting fights and no Ether renewal in mist form.

What happened was other classes got buffs and got better but in WvW Ele is almost exactly the same as it was before. At least for D/D standard cantrip.

Sorry for interrupting this one Engi’s I just happen to be passing through.

Guardian and Thief have been in the meta for most of 2013 Warrior got into the meta at Pax which was August 31 of 2013(which is the end of 2013). That was when at the following SOTG Chaplain said it took us x long for warriors to show in the meta. Warriors could have been there a little bit prior but nobody really complained about warriors as of that Pax tourney it was still all about necro complaining.

Guards and Thiefs stay in the meta because nobody else can do what they do the way they do it. Classes can come close but are just not as good.

You always want the best for that “Role” that is what is important. For this to change I think the new gametypes will change these roles. I believe it was a pax it was revealed they have new game types coming. Now when it is time for a DPS/Healing role with more focus on DPS like deathmatch type game then I would rather have an Ele then Guard.

I think the gametype just dictates now those roles and it would be bad to nerf classes because others can’t fill that role there will always be something better. Players will figure it out eventually.

We are past the classes not being like GW1 I never played GW1 but it is just kind of pointless to bring it up. Even your example you say it is a much deeper difference then just the attunement system and that it is also tied to the way attribute points work etc.

I thought you where just gonna give a suggestion of make it like gw1 and it would be easy in the current system but the difference is the entire system not just attunements. That is not this game no point to even be mad about it 1.5 years later.

Axialbloom.8109:

Does the Superior Rune of Torment 6 piece bonus have a cooldown? Or can a Mesmer use 3 Mantras in a row for 6 torment stacks?

It has a cooldown when the rune first came out it didn’t. Someone made a video of them stacking 25 stacks was nerfed.

These just provide good cover condi’s on a perp thief with the steal. The damage per skill use is ok it’s more about the cover condi then anything.

I am willing to bet the rune of perplexity was apart of them seeing how a different rune worked on live prior to the rework.

If you look at rune of the noble(awesome condi rune) and perplexity they are pretty similar to what was announced in the stream for rune of strength. I think the other condition runes like krait, orrian will be similar to what you see now for perplexity. Many people would take a on proc poison rune over perp if there was a better one.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

scerevisiae.1972:

Video or it’s not true.

IMO Eles are the worst roamers. Biggest issue is (lack of) mobility/escape.

Your opinion would i am afraid be wrong. The have the mobility for it. Sure the damage isn’t the best unless more zerker but they have some great skills to both slow down and escape enemies.

In my opinion Guardian and Necro are the worst. Not because they are weak, but because they are easily escaped and have little to no chance chasing you should you decide to run.

Ding Ding Totally agree. The only classes I don’t have are Ranger and Engi you can see that Engi has good mobility if they want. Ranger also.

Without a doubt a guard or necro. I would almost say the necro is slightly better at roaming then the guardian unless you like relying on critters to get away which a guard definitely has to do then you have to run GS and/or Sword recommended with Judge’s while the necro can slow the attackers down easily then pop a 30 second swiftness. I run 100% chill duration on my necro while still having Traveler runes and when you can perma chil people the +25% movement speed from travelers really shines in combat.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Forcing every elementalist to depend on regen and protection (elemental attunement’s best effects) is forcing every elementalist to continue to invest on water (healing power) and arcana (boon duration), and forcing every elementalist to be rendered useless by every single boon stripping build in existence.

We need more stat-independent defenses, and we need our weakest defensive skills/ effects buffed. Burning Speed’s evasion and Armor of Earth’s lower cooldown fit perfectly into this.

You know Diogo I’ve been doing some reading up on Elementalist lore etc. I didn’t play GW1 but after reading a bit of lore then looking at the actual class description I agree even more with these changes and the idea of more stat independent defenses for Elementalist.

I could be misunderstanding it but the profession description is.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/elementalist/
Elementalists are multi-faceted spellcasters that channel elemental forces, making fire, air, earth, and water do their bidding. What they lack in physical toughness, they make up in versatility and the ability to inflict massive damage in a single attack.

We all consider elementalist weak physically that is SOOO working as intended lol. We go into water and arcana to offset that. We also know that a elementalist can blow things up in a blink if you wanted to build that way. We also know that Elementalist for PvE meta is the highest theoretical dps.

Our damage output also aligns with our Magic type which is Destruction magic unlike the other profession types we don’t have a affinity to any of the gods but to the elements. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Mesmer-and-Elementalist-Lore-Origins/first#post2721612. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magic

So we can do destruction well but at the cost of survivability. It is I think generally considered alright to go for more damage via Fire and Air if your staff. I would say that is balanced given the range that you have. I personally love 20-30 in Fire and 30 Air always 30 air on staff.

The perfect balance I think for Elementalist is achieved when a Ele can feel ok out in WvW and s/tPvP going almost full all out zerker like you feel if you have a full zerk mesmer or thief which both use the same type of magic (Denial) from a lore standpoint. I don’t think twice about taking my Mesmer or Thief out in WvW with 2.2k armor.

I don’t think Elementalist needs stealth like those but this evade being added and armor of earth being reduced fits thematically. Without altering the base HP and the reason why we have low hp is probably because of the description for Elementalist. There needs to be more of the stat independent defenses and utilities.

If you are a P/D thief perp is good with 30 trick. Otherwise I wouldn’t run that on P/D.

Necro it’s kind of a waste

On mesmer it is meh .

The duration doesn’t work so they aren’t that good. Decent on a condi build with some interrupts like P/D thief 30 trick and engis’

Worst roamers out of the 8 classes really? Serious?

They seem very strong so not finished products but the base concept is solid. They said that the heals are build defining choices and to some extent I agree but I feel the elites are a much build definer or they could be.

They are skills that can be powerful but if you have it or not really can dictate a fights outcome.

As a elementalist main:

Arcane Quickening suggestion is pretty solid. I would definitely give it a spin. Instant cast on fire grabs, and churning would be pretty nice. That is where they would get the most uses for a D/D Ele and the elite aligns with the long cooldown of those skills.

Stone Sheath looks a bit to strong I think a 90s would be better maybe even 120 Ele’s are use to long cooldown elites and one this strong I think 90-120 range for recharge would be better I would probably go 120 seconds for this one.

Elemental essence really strong for only 60 seconds. This looks more like a 180 second elite to me. I would take these over the current elites more often then not. The other elites have their roles though so they wouldn’t be totally over shadowed.

When the change to crit damage comes I feel like rune of speed will be better. For guards the burning duration doesn’t really matter. The boon duration looks good if you have long base durations after that it’s the crit damage and the movement speed.

Runes of speed probably provide you with better survivability then 30 toughness and 30 vitality. 30 power and 30 precision the precision probably gave you 1 crit chance and the power is less then 2 ruby orbs. You can make a strong case for the boon duration but that is really negligible unless you are specced into virtues anyway.

I have 5 of my 6 characters with runes of the traveler because right now crit damage on it is still ok but if it is made worse then I’ll probably move them all to speed. Especially if they do rune of speed like they gave the example of rune of strength +45% swiftness duration. Will make the on hit proc last 43.5 seconds if it doesn’t change that’s with no other boon duration investment.

You forgot 3 from shadowstep utility.

Anyway what your asking for will make the problem worse.

Unintended consequence you give thieves access to good out of stealth condition removal tools. Thieves who are heavy stealth built will have them too. Speaking specifically to Shadow’s Embrace it is an adept tier trait. There is no where you can put out of stealth condition removal trait that wont be able to have both. Next unintended consequence that would most likely happen is shadow embrace gets “nerfed” by being moved up to master or gm tier. Most certainly people will make a build that involves the out of stealth removal and shadow’s embrace if it stayed at current tier.

People will still complain why would you want to have your class changed just because people complain about something that is an important part of your class? They will still complain even if they turned thieves into kungkittenmasters that don’t need stealth but have evades. Then they complain bout evasion(which is about as strong as stealth imo). So the last choice is change the entire thief into a totally different class. What’s left? A medium armored warrior I suppose.

BurrTheKing.8571:

oZii.2864:

I think skull crack change was good. The cast on it could be a tad faster but now you just need to count dodges requires a little bit more timing.

The issue with it is that even if you do count dodges and get right up on them, the attack will sometimes miss anyways. This happens frequently vs moving targets and that element of luck makes many decide not to bother with it.

I’m not sure how the set up hitboxes, but this may have something to do with the fact that the old animation was a wide horizontal swing while the new one is vertical. I’m not sure if it was just an aesthetic change but regardless it NEEDS slightly more range to avoid this issue.

Yea there are other attacks that suffer from these kind of odd hitbox issues. Rush has been a repeat offender, Fire Grab and banshee wail also come to mind.

People buy the primer I don’t PvE much but I have seen 3 people with it in WvW so far.

Consumables are a good indication that their are many many people that will pay the premium to have the best. Lemon grass poultry soup vs Leek and Poultry soup. The 4% extra condition reduction and 10 vitality is worth close to triple the price for many.

Hey Ray!!

Guards particularly DPS Guards need some soft CC somewhere. Only issue I have on my guard is staying on top of people. I find sword auto attack to be very good along with the last hit of auto. Since it hits 3 times on a single target.

lvis.3824:

To all Warrios’s in here who actually think they are “balanced” – please for the sake of god play a D/D elementalist.

A profession that cannot switch to a different weaponset , this is pure melee.
And then, fight agains any class in the game – then come back and tell us again that you are “balanced” .

Balanced around what ? You really think you are such good players that you win every 1v1 out there ?

Even when missing 50% of you “obvious telegraphed” skills ?

Please try ele and then review your statements…

D/D Ele does fine in WvW. Dueling is fun but people shouldn’t get so worked up over dueling. There is just about a counter build for everything. Most duelers today play to Win so they bring the class that will win them alot of fights and has the best chance against multiple builds. Why bring a P/D thief to duel when you probably can win 90% of the fights with that build if you are semi decent? People still bring plenty of P/D condi thieves though.

Ele’s viability in s/tPvP isn’t represented because of the current meta but also the “Role” a Ele would fill. At this point a warrior can do those roles better even if Ele was restored to the prenerf phase a Warrior now is still better in that “Role”

Not everyone plays Ele in D/D cantrip build. Find a Sword/Shield + GS Warrrior in WvW duel him on Ele and lulz at the terrible damage that you can outsustain.

I think skull crack change was good. The cast on it could be a tad faster but now you just need to count dodges requires a little bit more timing.

Anyway more on topic. I think warrior is ok right now. I haven’t posted on the warrior forums in a long time as Ele is my main.

People calling for a very large nerf to warrior and particularly healing signet never played warrior back when it was in the dumps. I feel like alot people don’t understand the class tbh. My only issue with Warrior is that it does just about everything Ele does but better with the exception of strong Aoe damage except hammer. I don’t like to let people speak ignorance so even on the Ele forums I try to inform people about how the Warrior use to be.

I think Jon doesn’t really want to nerf HS in particular to the ground. They are dropping it by 8% people don’t think that is enough cause they can’t count and want to see a nice round attractive number like 25%. I hope there isn’t some overnerfing that happens with Warrior.

I think the tweaks it has received so far still keep it competitive without it being cheesey like skullcrack(I still run mace/shield and did pre-nerf). I think the 8% reduction on HS should be enough and then nerfs should be done with on warrior.

DanSH.6143:

Even the Devs admitted they overbuffed the warrior.
Deal with it. We’re OP.

I follow just about everything on this game where did they say that?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Resources-for-New-D-D-Ele-s

Rezzet.3614:

oZii.2864:

Xae.7204:

Warriors complaining about “sustain” is hilarious.

Apparently the highest health and highest armor values in the game isn’t enough. Warrior “sustain” is a massive EHP pool. Other classes get sustain that they have to trait into just to equal a warriors natural advantages.

Lets put Warriors in cloth and lowest HP pool for a while. They are so spoiled they don’t value what they have.

How you talk is if you don’t know anything about how warriors where before the signet buff. Prior to the signet buff that large “massive EHP” you speak off didn’t do anything for them.

thats because back then all warriors ran berserker with greatsword only trait builds

hell back then players stood under wvw gates attacking and being destroyed by grenades now people know all you have to do is move side to side and those wont tickle you

Have you wondered why Warriors ran alot of zerker with GS? Back then warrior was go in do as much damage as you can and run out. Wait for cooldowns to come back up. 0/20/30/0/20 has been around for a long time back then there was no reason to take Dolyak signet since you had balance stance. Now alot of warrior run it so +180 toughness. The 0/20/30/0/20 build was 2.7-3k depending on how you built it. That is not full zerk because melandru goes with it.

Xae.7204:

Warriors complaining about “sustain” is hilarious.

Apparently the highest health and highest armor values in the game isn’t enough. Warrior “sustain” is a massive EHP pool. Other classes get sustain that they have to trait into just to equal a warriors natural advantages.

Lets put Warriors in cloth and lowest HP pool for a while. They are so spoiled they don’t value what they have.

How you talk is if you don’t know anything about how warriors where before the signet buff. Prior to the signet buff that large “massive EHP” you speak off didn’t do anything for them.

You have to have played a warrior before this buff to signet to understand. Also damage was brought down for warriors once they received these buffs. To very strong damage traits Berserker’s Power and Heightened focus where moved to Grandmaster. Warriors still do good damage though even in tanky gear.

There has to be something for warriors to be able to sustain in the fight. Most of this thread is people talking about how its OP over and over but not really offering any suggestions. It’s like I know it’s OP so nerf it. Some want it nerfed into the ground only to force Warriors to run the other 2 heals which they actually did before this buff.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Cleansing Ire by itself can grant more condition removal per second than a Necro with every single condition removal skill available to him, mostly due to the putrid mark nerf.

Necro doesn’t just cleanse but can also cleanse and transfer. Transfers and just a raw cleanse are different. You can kill people with a necros condi tranfers.

hihey.1075:

^
Even if we are straying away from the main topic, the amount of Warriors who run Lyssa+Balanced Stance+Dolyak (with Signet CD reduction) is quite high.

That leaves zerker stance or endure pain left heh. People actually do that? Perhaps we are including Last stand trait. Now that I do on my warrior the bar is always doly, endure and zerker stance. Last stand trait cause Defy pain I don’t think is all that good unless I have 22k+ HP.

sminkiottone.6972:

Your are right, to all people who complains about warrior please go to Obsidian Sanctum and look how many warriors are there compared to other classes.
Most people are running with Necro-Thief-Mesmer-Engi, those are the best class to win 1vs1, not warrior.

Sure, Warriors and Guardians are better in zerg fight, we all know it, but when it comes to 1vs1 or small fights warrior is not as good as it seems, I’m no warrior, but I playined against many of them, and with my ranger/mesmer/ele/necro I won most of the fights against them… I would say 90% ( not counting those time when we can’t kill each other and we call it off ), they are IMO in the right place, good for team play but nothing more.

Only talking about WvW roaming/duel here.

What sanctum do you go in? There is almost always a warrior around and the builds usually are Mace/Shield + GS, S/S+Bow Condi, Hambow.

I never take the time to duel warriors (I main ele) but I also never bring my Warrior to duel cause it is a waste of time. I don’t know why Warriors always want to duel other warrior that’s basically a Bunker v Bunker fight Zzzzz.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

But technically speaking, the same passive HP/s is pretty much always better on a higher healthpool, because it almost always has more time to do its thing.

If warriors had low base hp (and that was the only change), healing signet would absolutely not be more powerful than it is now.

PS. because you edited curse you.
Warriors take less damage (before investment or with equal investment) than other classes. They are capable of taking more, not actually taking more which again does not justify a stronger heal.

lol yea sorry for the edit.

Thats true but Warriors also don’t have any other outside source of healing by default unless you go deeper into the vitality tree.

Look at Elementalist and Guardians who have the ability to heal before investment that isn’t a 6 skill. So while the Warrior takes less damage before investment comparable to a Guardian the Guardian also has inherent sustain to recover that HP if no trait points are ever used same with an Elementalist. This is obviously is a scenario assuming that you can survive and heal it back up or kill before your HP is depleted but still the Guardian and the Elementalist can on paper recover lost HP through means that aren’t the dedicate 6 slot.

Disclaimer: This is not a comparison of survivability or who can bunker better etc. This is just strictly speaking about sustain before investment.

Scrib.9207:

oZii.2864:

The High HP of the Warrior actually is a bad thing for the signet since it is harder to get all that HP back.

Wait wait, let’s see if I am getting this right. You are saying that having higher HP is actually a bad thing because you have to heal yourself for more to get to full health? Subsequently then, vitality is actually a negative stat that you should avoid at all costs, cuz you know… it makes it harder for you to top yourself.

My mind is blown.

Well you took that literally and ran with it?

Look at the context of what I replying to. I never said avoid vitality did I? Mind blown.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

oZii.2864:

Bombsaway.7198:

Well the reason it is so powerful is simple:
1) On highest HP class
2) On one of highest armor classes
3) On class that has a lot of damage

It would be far more balanced on anything other than a warrior. I do concur that warriors need a good heal but not a big heal over time.

lol no it wouldn’t the HPS is high because the warrior has the highest HP. If it was on a lower HP character the HPS would most definitely be brought down accordingly. The High HP of the Warrior actually is a bad thing for the signet since it is harder to get all that HP back.

The armor of that class makes the heals more effective.

The damage output is irrelevant. The problem many people have is that it requires no investment to be that good. So you can grab damage because you don’t need gear to support the HPS of the signet. Also that it is completely passive.

…What?
Balance wise, high hp never justifies high HP/s.
The high base just helps more agaist burst.

That is why it is so high. It was inline with other signets but it didn’t do anything for the warrior because it didn’t heal enough vs the amount of damage that a warrior take. That is why they bumped it up as high as they did. Why else bump up the HPS of healing signet if it was already healing the same as SOR and SOM on 2 of the lowest HP classes?

Not saying if it was right or wrong I don’t balance the game so I am not arguing that. That is why they bumped up the signet because it didn’t matter if you where in full clerics or full zerker the HPS of the signet wasn’t enough.

Bombsaway.7198:

Well the reason it is so powerful is simple:
1) On highest HP class
2) On one of highest armor classes
3) On class that has a lot of damage

It would be far more balanced on anything other than a warrior. I do concur that warriors need a good heal but not a big heal over time.

lol no it wouldn’t the HPS is high because the warrior has the highest HP. If it was on a lower HP character the HPS would most definitely be brought down accordingly. The High HP of the Warrior actually is a bad thing for the signet since it is harder to get all that HP back.

The armor of that class makes the heals more effective.

The damage output is irrelevant. The problem many people have is that it requires no investment to be that good. So you can grab damage because you don’t need gear to support the HPS of the signet. Also that it is completely passive.

honovi.7893:

So how is scepter or focus not a strong weapon set if so many people are choosing it over d/d? Now, keep in mind i have no real stats to back this up, but most dueling arenas i go into with eles have:
A. Fresh air s/f or s/d burst ele.
B. high pressure cantrip d/f ele.

I’m just not seeing why you think scepter and focus are so weak. Do they have skills that suck? absolutely. But they also have a few AMAZING skills that beat similar skills from other professions by a longshot.

And yes, i’ve been playing this game since release. I know the history of eles and how much qq there was about scepter being bad. It doesn’t matter if you were the first person that thought scepter was good 6 months ago or the last. Right now, i believe scepter mainhand is a better option than dagger though. But once again, that’s just me.

Any other eles think that scepter is now a BETTER option than dagger? I know these weaponsets excel at two completely different things but bunker ele is just sad now. We get ripped apart in seconds.

This one is hard to say which is “better” in a wvw/pvp perspective. Lightning is correct that if you can’t bunker like before you can try to be dps. Nobody still takes Eles though but if they did it would most certainly be S/x before D/x.

If this is strictly about s/tPvP then Old cantrip D/D still wouldn’t have a “needed” role in today’s meta. It could just Sub as a roaming bunker for warrior that is all that would change even if you gave RTL a 15 second CD it would still be a viable sub for a Warrior in today’s meta.

For roaming out in WvW I would say it is even and just depends on what you are fighting both have strengths and weakness some shared and some distinct.

For larger scale fights or controlled fights like GvG’s I prefer to run S/x then D/x(I mostly play staff but I’m the Ele that would go on the havoc team). That is my personal preference and I feel that in a GvG type setting S/x will provide the same DPS that D/x will with much less of the risk. I don’t see in this setting that D/x clearly outshines S/x for damage and it will really come down to how often you have to stop doing dps to defend yourself.

With as much CC running around I personally feel that S/x allows me more dps uptime without having to blow survivability skills like cantrips after I just burning speed a down guy but ran into a fear mark. I know people run D/x in strike forces or the small havoc teams in GvG’s Serane does this I have too. I feel that you can build a small havoc team better with a S/x then a D/x especially if you throw GS mesmers on that team since you can range right along with them.

This is just speaking strictly from a GvG standpoint. I was asked to run D/x the other day in a GvG but I was against the idea of D/x and preferred S/x.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Ision.3207:

Rock solid post. Bravo +1

And it’s laughable how comparisons are being made between +40% condition duration and the, “imagine +40% crit chance or damage” …. wow, talk about comparing apples to oranges!

It’s a ludicrous comparison that requires a person to drop all the context of the difference between damage types, and their actual form of application and resulting damage over time. The +/- food is fine, and far-far from overpowered.

Silly me, the fact that pretty much all roamers run condition builds shows nothing wrong with them what so ever, personally i think all these sort of Food should be removed from WvW they should be left to PvE andf thats it. Other types of food that give X stat and and such are fine its the 10% Crit Damage and 40% Condition duration ones that are the problem

Conditions ARE the dominant build in WvW for anything other than Zergings and in that situation any build will do – its the numbers that win in the end anyway.

Look at the classes that can EASILY burst conditions onto people with a few button presses. Classes like Thief, Engineer, Mesmer, Necromancer have far to much access to conditions and far to much defense. Conditions DO need work, only those that run condition builds will say otherwise.

I mean condition builds would be fine, IF they weren’t so quick to kill people. They should be SLOWER to kill things rather than easily burst them dead without being able to do anything about it.

This isn’t true not all roamers run condition builds. Mesmers don’t condi burst people unless you are willing to fight them.

I only came across a 5 man P/D thief crew 1 time ever [Rage] on Maguuma. It is always mixed and matched. In the sanctum dueling sure there is usually alot of condi builds but even then it is about half and half.

You are far more likely to run across a 5 man mixed power group or full power group then you will a 5 man full condi group. I have alot of hours roaming and only seen this 1 time.

D/D Ele was nerfed because it filled a role no other class could fill as well. With slight tweaks you could have it fill 3 roles (the Eles strong suit versatility). The problem was those other classes weren’t as good back then.

Necros – couldn’t condi burst
Warriors – didn’t have sustain
More boon stripping was introduced in the game.

Necros can now condi pressure a Ele better then before
Warriors have sustain and always matched or had better mobility then a D/D Ele.

Ele was only seen as overpowered because the rest of the classes where bad. Many classes have been brought up. Even if old ele was back in sPvP the spot it would fill today it competes with Warrior while the warrior can provide better damage. So old D/D Ele in todays meta would just mean you can interchange it with warrior with not much of a drop off between the two.

Fun Fact:
In EU S/D was the preferred weapon set while D/D was NA back in the Ele glory days.

I don’t have a problem with signet on warrior but when you combine signet with adrenal health also then it starts to look to much.

Still I don’t have a problem with HS HPS but the warrior can still do alot of damage with that amount of sustain.

I have a warrior that I played before the healing signet buff and warriors couldn’t sustain in a fight so you where better off bringing a thief or ele because they could stay in the fight longer to do dps. Warriors then had to go real glassy and do as much damage as they can and run away. That was how you played warrior which was more thief like back then.

They are reducing the HPS by 30 in the next patch so we have to see how it plays out. I main elementalist but I know how it was for warriors before healing signet so I can’t say honestly that it needs a very large nerf.

nicknamenick.2437:

Omg guys… this issnt about condi being OP or not..

Its just about the food.

What I am trying to say that +40% is so good for condi builds they would use this.

But with that it becomes a MUST have for the other guy to use -40%.. because if you don’t you do get a harder time.. so why not use it right??

But that’s the point!! condi builds use it because other use the -40% food.. so if condi doesn’t use +40% he would be less powerfull..

So the point is everyone is using it because you HAVE to…

Now this is why I suggest to bring it down to around 20% or something.. so condi would still use this.. but others also can get something else now

So in total the condi builds would profit from this
And the other people also because you can have something else and not -40% food..
Because +20% is a % I think should be still good but not a MUST have to get the -20%..

get it what I am trying to say here? :-P

I doesn’t have anything to do with condi builds on its own..

This is because people learned either through word of mouth or math that this is the best food for condition builds. When the game came out people ran condition damage and precision food because they thought it was the best. The debate still continued with people saying specing condi damage is better then duration since your condi’s won’t run the full course so you want them to do as much damage as possible.

If you google guild wars 2 condition damage vs condition duration you will find several of these posts usually at the beginning of the games life.

Now people know that usually duration is better. The difference with power foods is that people have different needs. There is a all around food which is the starcakes that give you pretty good amounts of everything.

The problem with the other foods has to do more with players not understanding what is the best food for them. Example the best dps food is Sweet and Spicy Butternut squash soup(100 power, 10 crit damage) if you have any kind of fury and might. Truffle steak(100 power, 70 precision) usually is the better overall dps choice if you don’t have high crit chance or fury access. Curry butternut squash soup (100 precision, 10 crit damage) depends on crit procs but truffle steak usually is the better overall dps choice over curry butternut squash soup. Most people don’t know these things when they are picking a food. Or another example is omnomberry loaf (100 vitality, 70 toughness). Omnomberry loaf will give more damage reduction to a full zerker toon then a toon that already has 3k armor.

The other foods aren’t as straight forward as the condition duration food. Condition builds need 2 stats duration and damage. The food does cover the duration part very well for condi builds while you can then spec into condition damage.

We have to remember something though that while the condition duration food for condi builds is the default choice that doesn’t mean it is a good thing. Power builds can run the reduction foods and many other types of foods for their build. The condition build can still die to conditions and they don’t get to use the -condition duration food and even if the +condition duration food was nerfed they would still need to run +condition duration in their builds.

I don’t run -condition duration on many of my characters anymore and run dps because usually the best avenue is to spec/trait to deal with conditions and DPS them down with pressure before they can kill you. If you are running -condition duration foods you are expecting a attrition fight with the condition build and they usually win that fight because they are built for it. There are a few exceptions like warrior with trait that can run the food and still pump out great dps but everyone else should just run dps food because the -food probably didn’t save you.

Welcome back Zelyhn!!!

DiogoSilva.7089:

snip

As I think I have replied to you before I think Prot on aura’s would be good for all elementalist and it provides that more active defense for Eles. Prot is good no matter what gear you are wearing and Elemental shielding duration isn’t to long.

Rock barrier for main hand dagger users or something similar. You do bring up a good point who wants to use magnetic leap? I use it sometimes but usually that is only 1v1 and only against certain enemies. In group fights you almost never will want to leap in with a Ele.

They could allow you to create a rock barrier with magnetic grasp. You cast grasp and get the barrier while it wouldn’t be under your control since you need a target they could allow you to receive rock barrer with no hurl even if you miss a target with the grasp. 250 toughness would go along way for dagger main hand users. Now you can get the 5 in earth but what you give up is better then 5 in earth.

I agree with you that putting more defensive traits in offensive lines takes the fun away from going offense.

JorneMormel.9850:

Bombsaway.7198:

Typically, when something is mandatory you want to nerf it OR look at why there are no other options.

Which makes me wonder why certain consumables have not been touched since release. Notably the ones involving condition duration, there is no doubt about these being mandatory for a lot of builds.

The thing about that specific consumable became l2p. When the game came out anyone running food condi’s ruan mostly Risotto precision and condition damage. Makes sense on crit procs, sigil of earth, and of course damage. Through theorycrafting and spreading of word of might people realized that condition duration is better then damage.

It is the only food for condition builds because condition builds are on dimensional needing really 1 stat and the food gives them the other.

Power builds have more variety thats why there is no 1 food to rule them all.

Viking Jorun.5413:

oZii.2864:

Quakeman.9378:

what mixture of soldiers and cleric would you recommend?

I would go for about 16k-17k hp and 800+ healing power. You don’t need your hp to high but you don’t want it to low either.

I would go for a soldier ammy with soldier back and cleric trinkets. Rest of armor soldiers. If you want to get a bit of dps in there you can go celestial mixed with clerics also.

My personaly tanky setup is 0/10/0/30/30
Soldier Helm, rest is clerics armor.
Trinkets are soldier ammy, soldier back, 1 clerics ring celestial everything else.
I happen to have celestial trinkets so I need to use them for something and I found this to be a good place.

A side request, oZ, but would you perhaps have some clips of your ele in some Good Fights matches you could link? Love your team.

I am not apart of the sPvP team that is Genyen, Gauge, Kensuoda, Wakkey, Toker and Tany, with special guest Caed(he might aswell be in GF he lives in our teamspeak)

I am on the GvG team.

Genyen use to main Ele he may still but he hasn’t played it in a very very long time since it isn’t viable at that level of tournament play.

I can ask Genyen if he has any vids of his Ele in tourney play but it would be from a while back.

Quakeman.9378:

what mixture of soldiers and cleric would you recommend?

I would go for about 16k-17k hp and 800+ healing power. You don’t need your hp to high but you don’t want it to low either.

I would go for a soldier ammy with soldier back and cleric trinkets. Rest of armor soldiers. If you want to get a bit of dps in there you can go celestial mixed with clerics also.

My personaly tanky setup is 0/10/0/30/30
Soldier Helm, rest is clerics armor.
Trinkets are soldier ammy, soldier back, 1 clerics ring celestial everything else.
I happen to have celestial trinkets so I need to use them for something and I found this to be a good place.