Guild Wars 2

like every short bow in the game…

Even the current top thief builds: S/D and D/P have questionable viability in Tpvp ATM. D/D, it pains me to say, has been left in the dust— it is not viable.

Even if they revert the non-sensical 4 sec reveal change it prob wouldnt be viable, but it would be a start.

D/D generated so much QQ in low-skilled areas of the game like hot join and WvW that it always overshadowed the fact of how balanced and truly dynamic the spec was at higher levels of play. Consequently we see the power of the “QQ” in MMOs.

Authority.6145:

I really do not think that Arena intended to do it like that.

The reason is simple;

By being able to shadow step back/teleport (sword #2) while being stunned is still a stunbreaker regardless whether you are still stunned while teleported back.

I believe there are other skills that already functioned this way and have remained, it may be Anets way of giving a cushion to the nerf— and I doubt it will be changed (tho never rule it out knowing Anet)

Its still a pretty big nerf to what was a very powerful skill, and having it this way will still keep you in a bad spot against almost every class.

Honestly, we never got an answer as to why it was never reverted. Actually, we never even had an answer to why it was bumped up to 4 seconds in the first place.

So we were left to speculate, and the general consensus was that it was added due to WvW thieves abusing the game culling along with stealth. Culling in WvW has since been fixed and they reverted that change. But only in WvW and left it at 4 seconds in spvp which never really had the same issues of culling abuse in the first place.

All I can say to that is: ????

And we lived confused ever after. The end.

Has the new weakness really changed things that drastically? Perhaps theres no answer yet and we’ll have to see how things flesh out.

But it seems to me that d/p and thief builds in general still suffer from the age old problem of needing to go full glass just to meet any form of viability in Tpvp.

Which, being something that Anet has literally admitted to, is kind of disappointing as I dont see how they addressed it with this patch. I dont see how the steal changes can address this.

My only hope is that it was indirectly addressed through other class changes where the meta is moving away from the necessity of burst (via weakness etc.) that you mentioned. But we can only speculate on that now and time will tell. Personally I don’t believe much has changed.

I actually liked the look and synergy of the build you posted on previous page:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlUmaPncy4E/5Ex2DfKUe6pgsjtTxVtKA-TkAg0CnIyRljLHTOycs5ssA

any reasons you moved away from it in particular? Ive never really went for D/P before, was having fun with my S/D pre patch, but good to hear jumper’s still using it.

^

please elaborate, what do these cluster bomb AoE circles look like

Deniara Devious.3948:

Yesterday after the patch I saw so many AoE circles from cluster bomb that I stopped counting them.

This is why thieves get nerfed due to QQ posts flooding in from people who have no idea what their talking about

Ive used this build since the flanking strike buff patch in Spvp:

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-cF3F3;0RwF_06-V-Vd0;9;5T-T9;117A;118B4T

Always high-full might stacks during a fight, even without the food. I run the sigil of fire as my other sigil.

The popular build uses vigor on heal and and extra dodge every 9 seconds, but I find that the huge boost in damage (pressure) makes up for this loss.

Any updates on fixing this would be optimal.

Its making me look a fool out there, help!

Handin.4032:

Asuran mesmers with dragon helmets being launched from trebs and catapults is the future of WvW. We should all just accept it now! Though the best counter would be to allow ele’s to reflect treb shots again, to reflect the asuras being launched!

Best set of suggestions in the history of these forums.

I expect great things from this thread.

I like this new system if only for it de-emphisizing the importance of “tiers” and eventually even the weekly scores. This hopefully will move the mindset of WvWers more towards competitive and fun gameplay. Where before, you had people abusing unfun tactics like server blobing and mass transferring just to ensure their little point score at the end of the week was higher.

Dont get me wrong the over arcing competition of server vs server should still be a motivating factor but I dont think it was ever meant to be the ONLY factor. If you play to win and compete for the time you are literally in game, youll enjoy it much more.

google.3709:

and if you happen to die under moa(a transformation) your sigils will stop working until you relog :|

wait… wut?

Oh noes! a 5k and 8k crit that can both be easily dodged

I cant think of any reason why this wouldnt be a good idea.

+1

The biggest flaw is that it encourages giant server zerging. (not your normal zerg, but when an entire BL just masses up in one giant blob running from keep to keep pressing 1)

I feel like this is also the root cause for many of the other “flaws” and should be addressed first.

Its more that “reeners” or 1v1 2v2 would be a totally different meta to balance. Currently things are balanced around 5v5 conquest, and there has been several threads talking about the current state is the best balanced we’ve had yet.

In 1v1 or 2v2 people would completely re-tune their characters for that purpose, meaning all new comps, roles, specs specifically focused for it. Which then brings all new issues to the table with balance.

Its not that they couldnt do it, but more the fact that they would rather focus on a single meta, because 5v5 conquest is a lot better of a game mode then 1v1 or 2v2 in the end.

Farry.8259:

If the game would be ballanced in 1v1 situations, then it will be auto ballanced in 5v5 aswell… Look at other games..

Thats not true at all. It seems logical to think that at first though. What other games then?

Perhaps if 1v1 is balanced it would translate to a balanced 5v5 fight in a similar arena setting. (though doubtful) But when you add in the dynamics of conquest and a game mode it does not.

^

The bigger issue is that hot join (8v8 as 5v5 is nowhere to be found) does not facilitate the learning of the game type, conquest, at all. Which means theres no place to cut your teeth as a beginner player in PvP.

Right now theres nothing, you literally can only start off by queuing into a ranked game against veterans and get smashed if you want to learn. Even this in itself is not a great environment to learn.

This issue for an already crippled player base is a serious problem.

Valik Shin.9027:

If maps were bigger it would make it harder for a one large group to cover the whole map while still allowing a bunch of small groups to group up to take a tough objective

This in a nutshell is what the spirit of WvW should be. People play it because of the war-sim style and you shouldnt decrease the maximum players. However the idea is that the giant map battles should happen every once in a while, which would make them that much more epic.

In a sick way I kinda wish they wouldnt fix skill lag before introducing measures to discourage constant zerg blobbing.

If you need an “anti stealth trap” to have a chance at beating a thief, you wern’t going to win anyway.

Im pretty sure this trap was just to throw a bone at all the noob QQers with its concept and its real purpose is more for zergs veiling in and out of keeps etc.

Sin.4130:

Let designers of all characters make tournament 1 vs 1 . I bet all my money that thief would take first place in huge advantage. Do ANet have balls to arrange that and share results with all community???

What do you think?

ROFL. Ill take that bet. I hope your rich

I agree with this suggestion and its reasoning! Have even thought this very same thing before.

Tho the idea to join the mists of each WvW bracket could actually lead to negative consequences of a troll trash talking zone, since the brackets them selves have nothing to do with Spvp it would be confusing.

Would be better to just have all the mists joined, if it gets to be too big Anet already has culling and overflow mechanics in game to rely on.

Let the Spvp community be together Anet, bring down this wall!

still.. its the most attention given to a gw2 stream to date. And it was just the first one. Things like this will get anets attention, despite the attention or lack there of given from the devs so far.

still.. its the most attention given to a gw2 stream to date. And it was just the first one. Things like this will get anets attention, despite the attention or lack there of given from the devs so far.Good job to all who were involved

KarlaGrey.5903:

It’s hard to make preset strategies for any map, because tactics may change significantly as the match progresses.
Knowing your class’s tasks, and when to engage and when to gtfo (and when to keep a point contested by stalling, even if it virtually means suiciding), what to support (especially after you secure 2 nodes), and where to go to give support is the key.

Very true! But only in theory or a best case scenario when all 5 members understand this and are on the top of their game.

Being proactive and trying to take the lead for your PuG will achieve much better results, realistically. But then how do you do this?

Ill star her up :P

Battle of Kyhlo

Comp: 2 guardians (bunker) war, thief, ele (roamers)

Strat: With good roamers choose to split bunkers between close and mid. Alternatively, you could really cripple the opposing PuG by sending both bunkers to mid off the start and cap with only treb fire + 2 guardians while the roamers intercept far cap and destroy enemy treb. The downside to that is you risk potentially getting full capped off the start if you really fail.

If you go the conservative route, depending on the roamers specs send the quickest to far cap off the start to try and keep it neutral for as long as possible. The other 2 take out the enemy treb and then return to wherever they are needed. Thats right in this strat im completely ignoring our treb off the start.

The thinking for this is its a PuG, and sometimes you want to make things simpler for lack of VoiP, skill, comp, etc. You then use your treb based off of what the enemy team does throughout the match. Hopefully they send someone to take out the treb off the start giving you an early 4v5 advantage. IF they ignore it then you can hop on it later to do some serious damage once things settle down.

EDIT: This is an actual comp I encountered yesterday, and the basis for me making the thread. If any of us had decided to be more proactive about it beforehand, the end result of the match would have been much different.

In an effort to increase the quality of match ups found in the current tournament system, post here about your favorite strategies for each map.

Post format:
Name of Map first:
(Battle of Kyhlo
Forest of Niflhel
Legacy of the Foefire
Spirit Watch
Temple of the Silent Storm)

Class Comp:
Then briefly address the class comp of your team (even opposing team)
Can be as vague as “bunker heavy, bunker balanced, no bunkers or roamer heavy, etc.” or as detailed as you wish.

Strat:
what you would do: (ex: who goes to Close cap, mid cap, or far cap off the start and how you hold them throughout match, as well as secondary objectives per map)

Reasoning for Thread

Ive noticed for whatever reason the quality of team play found in “solo” queing has degraded significantly from its predecessor of solo qing for free tournaments. I suspect it has something to do with the quickness and ease of starting the current 1 team vs 1 team format, and that people are bringing their bad habits from hot join over. (Note: this is only for when you happen to get a true pug vs pug, leave qqs about premades and uneven rosters for another thread)

I think it has nothing to do with the quality of the players but rather the lack of proactive team play, even if its a full on PuG. So I thought Id start a thread for people to discuss strategy and hopefully translate it into more proactive and dynamic team play.

PuG strategy is far different then premade vs premade strategy because their are different factors to take into mind. The biggest factor being team comp, because its mostly solo q, you often end up with team class composition that significantly differs from the current “team vs team meta” and so you have to adjust a possible strat. For example perhaps you end up with a team with no true bunker class, does this mean you have to be more aggressive with constant pressure on the far point? Or would you prefer to be even more conservative with mid and close? These are the discussions I think would be fun and productive in this thread. Please leave the qq at the door, I think we have enough of that in this forum as is

Additionally, some suggestions or comments on how you get your true PuG teams to work together could also be included.

http://www.youtube.com/user/AggressionGw2

this is the [Agg]ression youtube channel, its updated pretty regularly so I thought some people might want the link. Contains a lot of 20-25 vs server zerg against some great opponents from all tiers!

Really liking the vids here too!! Its awesome seeing some action from old allies/enemies like [SF], [VoTF], [RIOT] keep em coming!

uplevels are like PvE mobs in wvw that follow the zerg around so their always near by for an easy rally.

I, however, will not take any pity on a “friendly” uplevel by me, and gladly will watch them die.

I can confirm your statement about making money in only WvW- – the group I run with I die very rarely and am constantly wiping giant zergs. Tho by itself a loot bag is a pitiful form of earning, when you can consistently clean up giant masses of enemies they actually add up decently well. However most casual players can barely break even and some lose gold.

Any amount I make pales in comparison to what a PvE’r could but its reasonably balanced vs how much I need to spend.

I think the Spvp rewards should be completely separate from the game to be fair to the active spvpers, it keeps a level of prestige in that sphere of the game. Which gives spvpers something to work for. A very important concept in MMOs.

Just a unique set that was hard to obtain (see: not from rank as you can just sit in hojoin 24/7 to get it) would be enough. Similar to how hard it was to get Paid tourny gear back in the fall.

Back around the release of the new tourney / leader boards it seemed a lot better. Its almost as if I have felt the dwindling of the community again. (similar to the decline of free/paid tournies)

But this time the system (1 team vs 1 team) doesnt require nearly as much to start as a full tournament, which means the actual community of active spvpers is even more ridiculously low than we could imagine.

Why bother asking for split ques now? This would just make it even worse.

Demonsoul.9271:

That said, I look forward to when they implement a more skill-oriented system in addition to this one.

^

Most people only care about how hard it is to get their gear, and not as much about the actual look of it.

Back in the day when you saw someone with full Paid tourny gear you were like “daaaaaamnnnnn”

now its more like “meh”

I have decimated my fair share of hotjoin noobs. So I somewhat feel responsible

Sebrent.3625:

• I do think a thief’s backstab missing because of blind, block, dodge-roll, etc. should reveal the thief. The backstab did not miss. It did “hit”, but was countered so that “hit” is transformed into an “evaded”, “blocked”, etc.

LMAO – i would never get hit by another backstab again. EVER

I already barely ever get touched by BS thieves as is.

This is yet another nerf that would lessen the viability of thieves in high end TPvP just to make all the lil boys n girls in hot join happy.

you just want to see the world QQ, dont you?

Siphaed.9235:

Katz.5143:

Suggestion:
1. Make a WvW lobby area (you select lobby from the same drop down menu where you sellect the wvw area to enter)
2. Have the entrance to the JPs in the lobby area (all of them).
3. Have crafting, banking, siege sellers, etc NPC’s there
4. Have the trainer…this is WvW, blah blah blah explanation stuff there
5. Have cool maps on the wall and a table top wargames area
6. Have the entrance to a dueling field and a gvg field/area/whatever

They have a Lobbing area….incidentally it’s called LIONS ARCH!

Edit:

Please, stop with this GvG garbage. WvW is not nor ever going to be a place for “Guild vs Guild”. It’s “Server vs Server vs Server” content and that’s how it’ll stay, because it’s there to promote Server partnership amongst your server’s guilds, not conflict them against each other. Now, if they do ever add in GvG content, expect it to be in sPvP only.

WvW is inside of a game called GuildWars bro..

-Thinks its a comment addressing the broken thief mechanic known as “traps”— sees its a new mechanic allowing all players to de-stealth other players -

Ive been all over the tiers. Just recently was in tier 8 for a while, and the majority of the time I was there was spent fighting huge zergs. By no means would I defend tier 1 server blobbing either.

So what does this mean? Everyone zergs way more then their admitting, so cut that out.

This is awesome!

Ive been working out S/D too. Its hard learning a new weapon set on top of an untested build. But from what Ive seen I agree it could work out great competitively.

What are you feelings as far as its role in Tpvp? I want to start trying that since it def has more of a support role then the older thief specs.

Honestly they should bet on themselves and the product they made and invest resources to address these and other major issues.

If the foundation is good then the investment would be returned to them and more through increased customer loyalty and an expanding player base.

All over the game, veteran players have expressed a deep love of the mechanics but its the same story “not enough follow through” aka spvp game mechanics vs. the lack of content available to use it.

(EDIT: Turned into a mega post tl;dr at bottom)

agree 100% with the OP. (good post!)

One very important thing to remember is that Anet does not want to splinter the already small community that has become its PvP. (both spvp and WvW) For instance when they talk about splitting solo/duo ques and full 3 round tournaments for SPvP. If you take a step back, this is a valid concern for a design team. Having a fractioned player base via multiple game types, makes it harder to focus on the overall balance of a game, and thus decreases the actual fun to be had. It also leaves players with no clear agenda or purpose (progression). All of this would also be true with separating WvW and GvGs.

However, as the OP has pointed out there does need to be a place for GvGs. It is one of the most fun and dynamic aspects within the game. And if cultivated by anet, would greatly extend the longevity and popularity of the game.

I think GvGs should still be attached to the WvW ruleset instead of making it another facet of Spvp. This is because the basis for why GvGs are popular stems from WvW gameplay itself. A GvG in its current state is how guilds can test their mettle and size themselves up against other guilds, in a pure form. Meaning no interference from outside sources and equal numbers. It also allows guilds to recognize possible weaknesses in their “comp” so that they can improve upon them so that they can translate into performing better on the field where it “counts.”

But separating completely would affect the flow of the WvW system already in place. I know if there were a separate GvG format I would direct all my efforts and time to doing JUST that. And many other people would too, possibly jeopardizing the still active form of WvW as we know it today. As a reaction to that, a degraded WvW game type would then take away from the drive to GvG in the first place. Resulting in two slightly broken forms of game play. (this being the splintered player base I tried to describe above)

If you’ve followed me this far then you begin to see the problem. The fact is that there needs to be a place for GvGs without fully taking focus away from the current WvW system. I think its completely possible, and should happen, but perhaps not as easily done as people might think.

One Idea Ive had (im no game designer) is to implement an instance that two smaller groups from opposing servers can enter, within the WvW maps. The instance it self is just a very simple battlefield type area (the current known gvg spot would be perfect to model after) then the two groups fight, without siege and even numbers.. aka a GvG happens. The winner claims the structure (or whatever contains the instance, think a shrine or something RPish) and reaps the reward, be it an actual reward that affects the match point-wise or just a fame reward (like the names of the victors are broadcast through-out all three servers of that matchup).

Think of it as a kind of instanced- king of the hill- objective within WvW. Then a countdown starts till the next time an opposing server is allowed to go to the “shrine” and challenge the holding server. (this keeps ppl from just spam GvGing there and disrupting the flow of WvW) The challenge gives the defending server an amount of time to return with the required player amount, and then the next GvG occurs.

Now this is no where close to completed idea, but I think something like this would be possible and still keep WvW and GvG connected and not splinter the player base. It gives highly organized and competitive guilds a sense of purpose and prestige without having to detract from the flow of WvW. It would also motivate ALL who participate in WvW to become better and more organized players, and help break up these horrible server lagging mega zergs that are currently prominent. Finally, it would add yet another dynamic layer to the WvW system as a whole. As servers would develop their overall strategy to incorporate this. (Think: “ok who will be on to take over GvG duties at this time? How bout so-and-so guild they said theyve come up with a counter to that one guild thats been killing us in there! Ok let them have it!” )

Sorry for the wall, can you tell Ive been thinking about this a lot?

tl;dr: I agree, GvG needs to happen. But it can not take away too much from overall flow of WvW.

I was gonna start my own thread but figured I could tac on here.

For SPVP ONLY: What elite skill do you guys run for S/D? Ive always preferred bask venom for obvious reasons when I ran D/D. But it also has such a short CD and was never a huge fan of the fire and forget style of Thieves Guild.

I was using Bask because I thought I would still use it in an opener. But now I always start fights with Infi Strike so I always have an escape up with the shadow return. So Ive found that I never really use my bask venom, since Im immobilizing them anyway.

Im wondering if ppl feel the same, or I am just missing good opportunities to utilize bask venom mid fight. (Prob the latter since Im still figuring out the whole S/D thing)

Without a true seeding system it would be unfair to place teams on the bracket based off who ppl say are the “favorites” especially with money on the line. Im assuming it was done with a random application.

Awesome job on setting this up!

Perhaps in the future an agreed upon seeding based off of the (lol) leader boards could be used, or maybe even based off the results of this tournament. But all in all we just need to see more of these going on, so kudos again.

Confusion was nerfed because when used in group play (WvW) it was incredibly OP.

Sorry

Top 3 from best to third best:

1. Three Superior Arrow Carts
2. Two Sup. Arrow Carts
3. One Sup. Arrow Cart

EDIT: kitten someone beat me to it

The highest crits are received by underleveled players. Meaning your not pressing the backstab skill wrong or anything.

Most thieves go full zerker tho, if you want the numbers. And most ppl run tanky these days too.

But if you ever want to feel anything but useless in a group scenario, you will leave shortbow where it is.

No. The last thing we need is to ENCOURAGE more disorganized server lagging mega blobs.

Also btw, there are plenty of ways to counter water fields.

We need to have more reasons to be smaller and organized not nerf them.

xmtrcv.5236:

The top of your game isn’t the top of the game then.

Owned.

and /thread

Are the boons you steal affected by the duration of the person who casted it (stole from) or does it depend on your own personal boon duration? Like as if you casted the boon yourself when you stole it.

I still prefer D/D to D/P, but Im just starting to get back into tpvp. I remember D/P becoming popular just as I went on “hiatus” but back then it was def just a fad. With the slight buff to D/P since then I can accept that it could be viable.

Remember with D/D to run Infiltrator’s signet as the third utility. Most theives never learn to get off of the Shadow Signet crutch. But with shortbow you have all the mobility you need.

The biggest thing to learn would be how to use short bow 5 skill to truly be mobile. As in the z-axis map shortcuts. I think theres a youtube out there. It was made with just the old maps but when you learn it its easy enough to find the new ones yourself.