Guild Wars 2

Saiyan.1704:

I’m imagining the necros frustration. But then I see how their AI is better than ours and get even more frustrated.

It’s a “little” better. It’s still miles from phants or just good in general. All ai in the game needs updated.

Dondagora.9645:

Unsure if any of you guys understand why it happens with Necro minions. I’ll explain it now if you don’t get it: This was unintentional, but was accepted by ANet as a fun quirk to the game. The intentional affect was to have minions die on the Necro going Lich, or else the Lich+Minions would become OP. It is assumed the code never specified Lich and now actually works on any transformation, which wouldn’t mean anything since it was meant for necro’s transformations… except mesmer can transform others. This created the unintentional, but allowed, effect of moa killing minions.

Thanks for the clarification, I knew I was forgetting how it all tied together. But they need to fix it. This isn’t just an issue for moa (granted it’s the biggest), there are pve transformations too that this screws us over with. They just need to buckle down and fix it.

Do t hold your breath fellers any bets bugs (moa killing all minions???) are long buried and forgotten about regardless of mention. you’re better off asking for buffs and nerfs than bug fixes at this point :P

OT though, I do hope they fix minions and moa and not make all pets die. Because that would have to extend to mesmer clones/phants and guardian spirits too which simply don’t need more issues.

Exactly. That’s the problem I have because I’m sympathetic of those players. I understand the frustration. I just love playing minion master because I enjoy playing the “Controller” to allow my pets to attack, and while I have passive offense, I have to focus more on personal survivability where as say, a meditation guardian or dd ele focuses on their offense and defenses are “passive” though a generalized rotation from Boone and self healing simply by playing. It’s just two opposite extremes, but people don’t really see it that way unfortunately. Doesn’t really stop me from enjoying it but I do know we’re not likely to get fixes we direly need, though devs clearly have no issues nerfing mm or not fixing critical bugs that come up, because the MM base is much smaller than the base that hates them deeply. It’s an unfortunate truth.

Simon.3794:

does moa remove spirit weapons tho

Does it? Pretty sure it didn’t always. I know I’ve tested phants and spirits from Rangers and turrets, they don’t die. I’ll test guardian weapons later.

Yeah, as far as risk/reward, it’s certainly an upperhand turrets have. One, they have practical team uses. They’re also mostly ranged so they can be strategically placed and be very effective immediately where as the other two pet builds (save Mesmer and phantasms) have to be spawned at the player, then locked toward a target, catch up then do some damage. And unlike turrets and phantasms they aren’t bursty so they need a decent amount of uptime to really pay off for the 1.5 second spawning casts and in real play, especially team fights, that doesn’t really happen. Then of course on top of being ranged and being able to work around say turret placement, you have almost no control over minions except that they prefer your last target and are effected by control effects which can cause their abilities to go on full cooldown with no effect at all, they take full condition damage, which is tuned around having some removal which means pets did within a few bleed stacks or if they stand in a burning field for more than a few seconds.
And beyond all that, it’s held down by the biases of dueling situations where admittedly MM does pretty well against certain builds that have close to no Aoe, which is honestly much less common than it once was it seems.

I don’t expect any changes and with player attitude against AI who don’t out much thought into the mechanics beyond recognizing the player isnt controlling it directly, it’s probably a lost cause. I used to post all the time and was a pretty notable MM, top 20 for a good while (despite my hate for conquest). It just wasn’t really worth it because the devs paid no attention.

Also another special note: Turrets can better function in khylo because they can be positioned accordingly. Minions pretty much all die to a catapult regardless of the necros ability to dodge, essentially making it useless in its only role, home bunking.

I think the devs are having some issues with (non turret) pet builds and understandably so. Let’s builds are beyond effective and for little effort against poor(er) players. However in team play or against their many counters (including Aoe, also not a turret issue) or just good players in general, pets get lousy up time, are kitten y, weak to Aoe and the player has very little personal protection especially against CC. It’s such a hard thing to fix for them to be effective in teams and pro play, but if they gave them the attention they needed, not only would pros complain because people have such a strong bias toward twitchy burst play that they’d complain, but also new and poor players would get absolutely annihilated constantly by MMs. And the forums would be filled 24/7 with massive outcries about AI (even if the mm did most of the damage) which is understandable I guess.

I just don’t know, it’s frustrating. There is no right answers but I think instead of trying to make it work at all they just sort of gave up and ignore them all together and just keep an eye on making sure they’re not TOO strong 1v1 to avoid the forum riots.

The other thing is people tend to ignore their weaknesses. Most off here, though, turret engies dont really share with Necromancers and Spirit guardians, which is why they get play more so than the others.

Did this thread break for anyone else…? (Test) been blank for over 8 hours for me.
Edit: this post fixed it for me… Strange.

It’s a bug that was introduced at live. It has to do with how utility bars lock when a necromancer is transformed and has something to do with the unique coding in Death shroud (or so it was explained) and is why their elites were eventually made to say they kill monions on use, which was announced to be a temporary fix so people wouldn’t be surprised. Many devs didn’t even know it happened or forgot until i directly brought it up to Hammon and a few others last year some time and they vaguely confirmed it as a bug. Which should be obvious since it’s the only spawned pet that doesnt die (both spirits, turrets, clones).

There doesn’t seem to be many hardcore necros in ANet, much less MMs so we get pushed off a lot. Not to mention, no one has any understanding off the issues it has.

(ie, turrets get to be called objects so they are immune to critical hits and conditions too, hence they can be used in team fights where as mm Pets die in abiut 4 seconds and the MM can be trained down) and is why spirit guardians don’t even really exist.

I’m sure this is probably a case to make Moa kill turrets, but it really just needs to stop killing minions, the only people if affects this way. I wish these critical bugs were taken more seriously by the devs and not exploited as leverage to nerf unwanted builds.

My two cents ~ High Warlord Sikari.

Simple truth is, it doesn’t matter if you hate arenas or not. The only reason to hate them (as long as it’s not forced on you) is fear that it will be too popular and invalidate conquest entirely and make matches take too long to start up. But here’s my view, not having them is a research and development bomb on heir part. Let me explain why.

- The market and player preferences are gravitating toward smaller scale and faster gameplay. Arenas provide a quick play style that can be fun and effective for a person and their friend (or two), which is very commonly a “natural” group of primary friends in MMOs. Beyond that you tend to recruit or have secondary friends to fill a specific comp, but generally speaking about 2-3 main friends are playing together at a given time. Simply because that’s an easier relationship to uphold, people are used to doing things in pairs. That, and it’s quicker than working around 5 people or more.

- While it may temporarily remove some of the queue pool for conquest, it has a good chance to bring in more players from pve and other games. Thus, it would expand the pvp crowd in gw2. The drawn players and many arena lovers will still likely do Conquest modes at times, they’re not mutually exclusive. In net, it could broaden the pvp base and may even allow for more focus of resources INTO pvp in general, which in sure no one could argue with here, it would be great.

- 2v2s dont need much help. We’ve had 2v2 tournies for a long time. It just needs support so it’s more organized to play outside of tournies and rewarding for those who prefer that play style (Ie silver/gold and reward tracks). Dueling and 2v2 currently both suffer greatly from unorganized rooms, griefers and no reward/incentive outside of fun. And it STILL can max out multiple customs rooms based purely on the draw of “fun”. That says a lot.

- Guild Wars 2 is losing so much by not taking advantage of this because they have the perfect set up for it. It doesn’t have healers and a unique means of self sustain and revival. It doesn’t require any pve or leveling up to be competitive and takes no time (essentially) to theory craft and create new builds and compositions. No other MMO in the world can claim the same freedom and accessibility as GW2 could. To ignore that is foolish, unbelievably so.

- Arena is more interesting to watch. Frankly, seeing a guy roll around on a point to survive and rarely fight to kill is a terrible objective for esports. People want bloodshed. Smaller arena fights allow for easy viewing and are much easier to explain the processes involved. And saw what you will about team size, but more doesnt always mean harder. The larger groups get, the more a bad player can be carried. Especially in 2v2s if both players aren’t on their toes, it will often end up bad for that team.

So those are just some considerations. I hope ANet swallows their pride and puts some real thought into this, because it kills me to see this amount of sheer wasted potential.

Hammer would have been okay. I’m pleased with sword though if it’s power and helps pve.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

ronpierce.2760:

Welcome to the world of necromancer. Most of our kitten abilities do this… I consider it class justice lol… He’ll as a necro I think half the time it interrupts regardless just for the hell of it sometimes…

I play necro, too but the difference here is say…. axe for example.

You are never going to hit anything behind you or without a target using axe 1 or 2….

But yeah its the same feeling…. like really?

Why cooldown?

Add could just as easily (1 and 2) attack the first thing it comes in contact with (closest distance) in a line when you’re either with no target or not facing your target and be similar to old blade trail. That would be ideal rather than making more act like necro skills, but what are you going to do. Not like they are going to fix these things… I honestly don’t dont this improvements are a big deal to them, once people are used to it, it’s a non issue to them. Just look at elite forms and Moa killings pets. A beta bug that many main developers didnt even know about or remember a year in. A few years later, still no fix… (Admitted a bug, coming from an interaction between death shroud and transformations locking bars as a necromancer counting as null utility slots.)

One step forward and two steps back approach on design and resource allocation.

Welcome to the world of necromancer. Most of our kitten abilities do this… I consider it class justice lol… He’ll as a necro I think half the time it interrupts regardless just for the hell of it sometimes…

I want…a Devourer minion. Shadowy thing that attacks at ranged but follows you and every 5 sec removes a condition from each of your other minions (not you) and… It’s use ability rips up to 3 Boons on 30 sec cd…… And gives 5% lf for each boon it successfully rips. Instsnt, but a 1-1.5 sec fast on the minions behalf.

Some Aoe protection and boon ripping.

Try harder. 0-500 is a little more than “ah we got put against better players”, somewhere you or someone else just gave up.

Kilger.5490:

Necro has lots of power weapons as mentioned, only one condi weapon (sceptre). Mind you they could make it good for both like staff.

I wouldn’t say lots.

Power:
Dagger MH
Axe MH
Focus Offhand

Condition:
Scepter MH
Dagger OH

Utility:
Staff (Strong bias toward Conditions)
Warhorn

It’s fairly even. Both types have a two “viable” sets for first and secondary weapon set, with a little give for offhand choices.

The problem is, another condition weapon would just be an “icing on the cake” sort of thing, where as Greatsword could be used to fix a serious PVE issue with the necromancer. Right now we have terrible cleave and no “viable” way to be competitive or truly useful in a group. This weapon could fix that very easily, and I think that is a much more important consideration than just adding more flavor to a single play style.

Lazaar.9123:

Honestly, I think that getting Necromancers into a good spot on the power side should be a higher priority in PvE, because it seems like conditions are something that will take quite a bit longer to properly fix, so i’d personally prefer to not have another condition weapon until it’s sorted out.

Speaking of, I’m really REALLY surprised there was no mention of fixing conditions and how they are applied considering PVE. An expansion would have been the best time to try to sort that out. o.O

Currently, Flesh of the master is causing pets to die on down. This is a pretty hefty bug for sPVP/WvW, and really even PVE where going down and being picked back up happens pretty frequently. This trait is basically mandatory for MM PVP and is currently a huge road block all at the same time. PLEASE don’t let this go on for months on end. /beg

I’d rather them give staff 1 a condition and just let it be a condition weapon, honestly. Staff is an iffy power weapon, more utility than anything, except it works best with conditions because of the low CD on Staff2.

They’re just trying to condition you for better things to come. Stay tuned!

I agree, I’ll be very sad if its not a power weapon. Condi builds generally do just fine with Sce+Da/Staff. We’re very very lacking in PVE right now and one of the reasons for that is our lowish power dps and lack of viable cleave, coupled with being a very selfish class. If anything our DPS should be one of the highest BECAUSE of our selfishness, but alas, we have a lot of work to be done. If they pass up the opportunity to give Necromancers a fighting chance in PVE with this weapon, I’ll be greatly disappointed.

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t have an issue with AoE in PvP. Plenty of other issues, but not AoE.

In wpvp mid fights ele/other condies/warriors (general splash) doesn’t give you any sort of issues? O.o like ending up petless in many of those fights? Of course they’d be less of a problem if we were fixed in OTHER ways, of course, but I just don’t really see any of it happening. A non sacrificing (still minion) cc break would be welcome too:

High Warlord. And it will specialize in minions. /speculation

style.6173:

The issue is that if they buff they, it has to be only in PvE. minions are already strong enough in PvP

They’re actually not though. They have bad group play and a horrible weakness to conditions and Aoe for any real use in competitive PVP. They’re okay against some builds in 1v1 at best. They’re not what I would call necessarily “okay” or “in a good spot”. At best, lower rating players just find them annoying because they don’t understand how to handle the swarm.

Knighthonor.4061:

Lazaar.9123:

TheDevice.2751:

Lazaar.9123:

It’s because the name is edgy, and just trying too hard.

Are you being sarcastic? lol

Nope, Death Knight is incredibly unoriginal. Is it so much to ask for to want a name that actually has a bit of creativity?

Unoriginal?

So what about these below, are they also unoriginal?

Warrior
Guardians
Engineer
Elementalist
Necromancer
Mesmer
Ranger
Thief

???

I heard WARRIOR****, Ranger and thief were original for sure.

fluxit.8247:

At least you guys can choose to use your minions. Think about poor mesmers when you speak about the lame minion ai. Sometimes my phantasms run off and have a picnic in a nearby flower field instead of attacking the mob.

Sometimes… but frankly, I’ve had better luck with phantasms than minions. At least theyre spawned directly at the enemy and are more bursty, so each attack counts a bit more. They’re definitely not perfect, but I haven’t had as many “kitten ” moments with phants than Minions. Plus, summoning them skips any current terrain differences you and your enemy might have.

Knighthonor.4061:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, AFAIK they couldn’t really bump the pet AI until they could do the same for all NPC (something on their end, I forget). That said, I’ve been begging for MM fixes for a long time. Beyond AI stupidity, they desperately need some sort of AoE protection too. They just simply get stomped on in many cases for both PVE and PVP (PVP especially with no real means of condition defense, condies run their full duration and strength and can melt them in seconds, especially if they’re caught in a bunch). Unfortunately, its really not that likely we’ll see any real changes for quite a while.

The problem with giving them AoE protection is that in this game, most attacks are AoE. So if you are fighting a Minion Master Necro 1v1, many of your skills will take a log time to destroy the Necro’s minions because that same AoE protection would apply to them.

Wouldn’t be really any different than Turrets as they are already, other than mobility, which isn’t really a concern for Turret engies fighting in a specific place anyways since they’re all ranged unlike minions.

XacTactX.6709:

Seriously I need to know! I can’t win without being carried by an OP build!

I really can show you how to roll some nublets with MM though. :}

Shadelang.3012:

Fair enough then. I assumed you were just one more of the “AI OP” crowd that cries when they rush moronically into a swarm of semi stationary mobs and wonder why there dieing because tehy cant pay attention to the explosive bone minion they literally WALKED into.

Nope. I’ve tried to explain it logically to many people:
- Pets have no Condi clear, and die fast from them.
- Don’t avoid AOE even if you dodge.
- Are stupid, bad pathing, bad attack sequencing.
- MMs have the worst anti-CC (no breaks, stability, extra evades, etc)
- No mobility
- Are essentially traitless necros without pets.
- Now pets die on down, and we’re a relatively easy focus target.
- Our team play is already trash because of aoe spam.
- Moa kills all pets.
- It provides a more interesting playstyle, which is just the opposite of most classes. Instead of relying on boons and other passive defenses and active burst, we have relatively (about 50%) passive damage and have to focus on keeping pets alive, CCing the enemy for our own safty, and avoiding deadly CCs while assisting on damage between those.

Doesn’t matter. Tears or not though, and all the poor functioning and lack of sympathy from others and the devs, don’t care. I still love my MM.

Do wish they’d get the turret treatment though and make them immune to conditions. That’d be sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

Shadelang.3012:

man…MM was NEVER op. just people made the same idiotic mistakes people make when fighting turret engis.

The fact that you would even say that about the most bugged build in the game atm is just….wow….

Cough -All I play is MM- I’m just goofing around. I love MM. In fact, it has taken some low blows that really kitten me off, like them dying when you go down for some reason. And not attacking. And taking long paths. Doesn’t matter though. It’ll always be OP in my heart <3 So many tears.

zinkz.7045:

Cynz.9437:

cele nerf -> nerf to engi -> anet would never do that

You must be new or have a bad / selective memory, for the first 12 months or so Engy was the most nerfed class in the game, some of the nerfs:

- Juggernaut trait went from a class that had the highest access to stability in the game to the lowest in one nerf.
- Kit refinement – twice, totally wrecked the trait to the point of uselessness.
- Grenades damage, plus poison duration, plus freeze grenade nerf, etc
- Incendiary powder twice (once duration, once moving it to master tier)
- Smoke bomb pulses nerfed
- Shield 5, twice.
- Transmute nerfed
- Mine field nerfed (blast finisher removed)
- Automated Response nerfed
- Elixir R – nerfed in multiple ways, silly cast time added, stun break removed, cooldown increased on rez, etc
- Elixir S – nerfed, used to be able to use toolbelt skills whilst invurn.

and so on…

Grouch wasn’t an employee let alone PVP dev for the first 12 months afaik, yo!

Minion Master. :}

Grouch plays Engi. :P

Kilger.5490:

If they havent fixed it by now I dont think an xpac is a natural time for it. Unless there is some ghost pet that can ignore terrain

Specialization will provide a new elite so at least there will be more alternatives to using flesh golem, thats guaranteed. Better not be a new pet anyway.

I always did wish they’d replace our things with spirits that could float, but then we wouldnt be necromancers in the same way :/

See that’s just it, I think this game’s “team fighting” is really not made for 5v5 anyways, because not TOO often would you see 5v5 realistically. I think 3-4v3-4 is the expectation, so a deathmatch of such magnitude only makes sense. Plus that extra freedom of not having to stand on a point really adds a layer of interest and build viability that doesn’t necessarily exist right now. Or rather… gives back a freedom taken away by the current conquest mode.

I’m just saying, this game NEEDS 2v2 and 3v3 arenas, its the absolute perfect game for it that caters heavily to the pvp crowd, ESPECIALLY the arena crowd, who are typically very e-sports driven and want non gear treadmills and fair fights (as for as gear goes). It blows my mind that its such an after thought. I mean even on the research and development side of ANet, quick gameplay requiring less organization and stress is where the markets moving even… They’d have a gem. It kills me just thinking about it. Especially if they did a little bit of advertising along with word of mouth, a lot of WoW arena people would at least try it… Thats box sales at the very least.

Ironically, this one has less for conversation than the other did. The other wasn’t wrong, if anything they might have been thinking the specialization might be called Death Knight. This doesn’t really add anything. :P

Well, AFAIK they couldn’t really bump the pet AI until they could do the same for all NPC (something on their end, I forget). That said, I’ve been begging for MM fixes for a long time. Beyond AI stupidity, they desperately need some sort of AoE protection too. They just simply get stomped on in many cases for both PVE and PVP (PVP especially with no real means of condition defense, condies run their full duration and strength and can melt them in seconds, especially if they’re caught in a bunch). Unfortunately, its really not that likely we’ll see any real changes for quite a while.

I like to think the Necromancer one applies pretty well to me. Seems a like a bit of a pat on the back to say so though.

ODB.6891:

Here’s also hoping they make DS actually have a melee attack when a melee weapon is equipped. I’m probably in the minority on this one…but I can dream!

I just wish it didn’t suck if you weren’t super traited into life blast traits.

I just hope GS/Daggerhorn Minion master is a viable thing. I would be very pleased.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I think of two handed weapons as more damaging than one handed weapons, since they are in almost every case, except for maybe Ele scepter, Warrior axe and Ranger sword. Which makes me think it will be very sub-par because Necro dagger is already insanely damaging.. If it were stronger than our dagger AA it’d be pretty OP so it’s either going to be the same or less damaging than our dagger. Which means we still won’t be ideal for PvE and greatsword will not be an ideal weapon for power build in PvP/WvW. This doesn’t mean I think it will be a terrible weapon and I’m sure it will have it’s utility, I’m just saying dagger AA is already very good, I can’t see how greatsword could replace it.

Perhaps GS will be the go to weapon for cleave and stacking, swap to dagger for 1-2 targets. Seems like a valid niche and could play a good role for PVE.

SkylightMoon.1980:

ronpierce.2760:

SkylightMoon.1980:

Im kinda sad this was put in game as well and I think it should be there. But there is one important reason Anet probably wont do this. Its because their pvp devs only care about developing an esport. You cant have 2v2/3v3 arenas be an esport. So for them, there is no point. xVx has always been very interesting to watch, some may disagree, but you have to have an eye for pvp to really know whats going on.

WoW’s entire esport is centered around 3v3 arena PVP. If you have good combat arena is great reports material. Especially if matches were set up best of 3. Gw2 2v2 and 3v3s have tons of moments for amazing clutch moments and stomp plays. Just watch some 2v2 tournies, it’s exciting as hell. In many cases way more exciting than a sweeping game or a stalemate or watching a bunker roll around on the ground doing nothing but trying to survive in a circle.

I agree but they still won’t do it lol.

It’s a poor business decision. Are as are incredibly popular and the only real good option people have is WoW, which is a VERY PvE oriented game and not pvp friendly. This game would be perfect for arena becuase it has no healers. BUT has support and the stomp system. Literally this game is designed for 2v2 3v3 and it’s such a blatant missing link…

SkylightMoon.1980:

Im kinda sad this was put in game as well and I think it should be there. But there is one important reason Anet probably wont do this. Its because their pvp devs only care about developing an esport. You cant have 2v2/3v3 arenas be an esport. So for them, there is no point. xVx has always been very interesting to watch, some may disagree, but you have to have an eye for pvp to really know whats going on.

WoW’s entire esport is centered around 3v3 arena PVP. If you have good combat arena is great reports material. Especially if matches were set up best of 3. Gw2 2v2 and 3v3s have tons of moments for amazing clutch moments and stomp plays. Just watch some 2v2 tournies, it’s exciting as hell. In many cases way more exciting than a sweeping game or a stalemate or watching a bunker roll around on the ground doing nothing but trying to survive in a circle.

Yes, it’s absolutely necessary. It’s already a community favorite that is the subject for weekly turnies. Secondly, smaller scale simply means you won’t struggle to find 4 others to play with at any give time that also has strong synergy. It’s always fun to have that option to just play with a good friend because most players have that 1-2 “good” friends. It’d add variety to an otherwise stale game, and would revolve completely around the games wonderful combat wit house as much risk for exploitative behavior, especially with certain “checks” or rules that could be very loosely made. (Such as after so many minutes capping stealth durations, very simple checks).

Beyond those reasons, we already know it’s fun and has a vast amount of effective comps. Not everything works perfectly together but that doesn’t have to be a goal. Every class has seen a strong representation in 2v2 tournies in the past, some slightly more than others. But the other great part of this game is it’s instsnt max level pvp. Creating a fitting comp works much easier than traditional mmos which require releveling and regearing to even try.

This is the PERFECT game for the arena community and it’s widely an untapped area outside of wow which has “Rpg” limitations for accessibility. I feel ANet is passing up a great opportunity.

Kraljevo.2801:

Spoj The Second.7680:

http://youtu.be/JIsgotF-AXw

Ranged GS is unlikely based on this. I think its safe to assume the GS auto attack will be pretty much what is shown in this video.

Perma Chill on autoattack, OP !

:)

Do want. :P

Bhawb.7408:

Could be badly worded. Could be he was saying “greatsword is part of the necromancer specialization (leave out the name)” meaning that greatsword will be available through specialization, not base to the class. Its a bit nitpicky on semantics, but I think the big point is that specializations very heavily imply that there are other things you could have specialized in, but picked one of multiple options.

That’d make sense considering it’s follow the same prerequirments as staff for ranger. Best not to get too worked up over it yet, but specialization wouldn’t be specialization without choice. I’m willing to bet specializations are being made so certain abailities and weapon types aren’t as useless for other build types and so on. Especially with class specific abilities. (Ie life blast for condies) But alas, wait and see.

It’s one of the few things drawing me back in. :P

I miss being a noteable MM. Dagger/Wh + GS sounds fantastic. Only sad 2v2 and 3v3s arent s thing yet. I love death matches and frankly am not a fan of trying to gather 4 people to play (and that mix well). Would much rather a 2v2 setting. Plus from experience in winning in a 2v2 tourney, it’s such a fun style in this game, but I digress…

As long as it is a power weapon, it’s perfect.

“Sunlight Hurts my Eyes” – necro and lifeless gamer anthem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bparw9Jo3dk

Don’t really have a second go to, but I’ll listen to anyhing stern.