I just realized my tf2 comparison was unfair. Tf2 still had healers and the holy trinity.
I think gw2 might be in a genre of gameplay all its own.
K im happy some people enjoy the pvp as it is, but it wasnt exactly what was promised.
Nothing specific was really promised, a lot of people bought this game with a strong impression that the same sort of thoughtful team design and tactics would be core elements.
Dont think anybody will try to tell me this game has an appeal to’deck builders’ … but i know some will argue team tactics still exist, and they arent entirely wrong they just arent very right.
The capture game type and powerful gap manipulators mean that nobody can be squishy, aka nobody can be back line. Thats where we see so many people cry about thief, thief culls anybody dumb enough to bring a build that cant brawl in the thick of it.
I guess the subtelty of good positioning decisions is lost on some people, but it was one of those things thats easy to learn and impossible to get right every time, those elements make gameplay suspenseful to watch because nobody can say for sure if some decisions are right or not. Even comentators who can see everything.
I dont think very many people are sorry to see button rotations go, an offhand dagger elementalist like yourself should probably realize that gw2 pvp is even more guilty of this than some previous titles. There are an awful lot of button sequences in here that are more effective than fun, and very repetative. But im not opposed to these conceptually, just pointing out that this part of the wheel hasnt been reinvented yet.
Look gw2 tpvp has some… to offer, and im not going to try and compare its quality to that of Prophesies, because i think both games are in different genres. I just ant anet to start an alternate game mode in the works that shares more than a simple fantasy scene with the origional guild wars. I eally bought this game on the anticipation of that sort of fun, and im really let down that its nowhere to be seen.
A robust battle pets mini game.
Look an awful lot of people bought this game for the fresh start on Guild Warian PvP, and were all pretty much out 60 bucks now because thats… not even something anet tried to deliver on. What we got has… more in common with tf2 i guess?
One consistently missed element is the deck building.
Now i still hope to see anet deliver on a robust esport status pvp experience at least loosely inspired by gw1, but in that interum… i could play some pokemon. Theres no monthly fee… why not? Its obvious the pvp team has many months to go before theyve fixed the current pvp system that none of us prophecies fans are even all that interested in— who knows how long after that until they start on their esport game mode.
2 problems with this
1) kittens like me that will spam report every double daggers thief i see, even though i know perfectly good and well they arent 1/2 as powerful as this forum makes them sound.
2) all the people who will report non exploits as exploits because they dont know what… say necrotic transversal is.
it is not gw1. there is not trinity we had in gw1. it is a mmorpg, gw1 wasn’t.
if you want somthing about gw1, take the lore.
This guy pretty much said it.
Hw2 has next nothing to do with gw1 except the lore
Nobody cares about rangers because rangers are bad. Even with quickness.
Random procs are bad for comp in principal, but this game does a pretty decent job of blending it to be a non issue. Not saying the game wouldnt be better without it, but i think the game is tolerable with…
Quickness is a pretty dubious thing. Im opposed to several examples of it, infact all… rangers need a good class mechanic and buffed / tooled weapons, this quickness bs is fine on them, but they could be more fun to play with and against if their mechanics were better ironed.
The little bit of challenge i get from throwing up a reflect, dodge, los, whatever when i see a ranger go quick just isnt
orth it.
Quick on thief is stupid and unfun all around.
On warrior m torn. With the mace i really think its perfect. With the gs i hink its less than optimal, with stomping im back to stupid but thats got more to do with rally than quickness its self.
+1 and some more words because filter
When balancing a game… I support a position of balancing for high end play and making only occasional small concessions to low/mid end play.
The thief is one of those that greatly impacts the learnign curve of the game at low/mid end play.
At high end play, and especially with team dynamics, it’s less of an issue. (well less of an issue for the reasons it’s an issue in low end play.)
I think this is a case severe enough that a small balancing change can be thrown to the low/mid players.
WOW. The OP is right, balancing classes would be easier if hp pools were closer in size.
The other side of this argument is that balance is reasonably attained without sacrificing unique play styles for each class.
My opinion is that the op is right. Elementalist is pidgeon holed into just one real build (30 water 30 arcane) and its because they lack survivability any other way.
Can this be addressed through careful balancing? Yes. Do i think arenanet will do it right? Well… maybe we can wait a few more months but im not optomistic.
Ya gw2 pvp wont be ready until some time from now. June 2013? Just a random guess. Just do like me, watch forum at work… log in to play every now and then…
Im not sure how much confidence i have in anet now, every expansion has made gw1 pvp worse, now gw2 is held back forever but then launched before pvp is ready.
@suctum: youre playing 8v8 or stomping forests of nifelhel repeatedly in 5v5… ive done my share of that.
These arent really considered to be competitive.
The devs havnt come out and said which pvp modes they plan to balance for, but most of the community assumes, safetly i think, that 5v5 high end tournaments are the target.
All sorts of bad things are viable in 8v8, like glass theives. Which are so imba in 8v8 that they may require changing… but in 5v5 they really arent that big of an issue.
Umm, you don’t seem to address the fact that eles and guardians are the 2 tankiest classes, yet they have the lowest HP…
That’s part of the problem. They get so many strong abilities to “compensate” for their low base HP, which inevitably ends up making them incredibly hard to kill with certain builds.
Fix the base HP, and then fix the outlier builds. It has to be done, both to make the developers’ lives easier and to fix the stagnating metagame.
Yea pvp and pve are supposed to be balanced differently… but so far the only example im aware of is confusion. Seems like the devs could embrace this more.
Condition damage seems like a natural counter, but isnt.
To moderator: please dont move thread to elementalist class forum. This is a pvp team addressing pvp concerns. In pvp, the class you play is a lot like the position you play— even a dedicated guardian pvp player would be interested in this discussion.
As for interest, i am interested even if i cant tune in.
I had that first impression too, but when you get into 2v2+ fights it starts to come into its own as a unique play style. Not a play style i enjoy much, but unique.
Ah… they are fixing the culling error. I dont think anything else has been announced.
If i were to nominate a change i would suggest none. Maybe change cloak and dagger so you cant steal after cast animation. Maybe move mug up a tier?
I think thief has lethality, utility, and mobility… i think if he other two factors werent so big then the lethality would be less of an issue
Theres a lot of balance feedback on the forum, but no united vision of balance. We are all arguing how to shape the puzzle peices but we havnt got a common image of our goal.
In a future pvp journal, could arenanet consider sharing some of their vision for tpvp?
We have so far (
They want spectators who may not know the game well to be able to watch and see whats going on.
They dont intend for bunkers to be so powerful and prominent, possible reduction in retribution up time, etc.
)
Can others add more? Stuff said by the devs that let us know what they see as balance?
Can anet share more so we can give more helpful thoughts?
W2 has this mechanic called rallying, it makes larger fights stupid.
W2 has this mechanic called rallying, it makes larger fights stupid.
Oh take it on the chin gentlemen!
This forum trashes jon and his coworkers while we enjoy (just a little) their work. (I trash them too im not talking as a superior).
So he trolled you. He knows that playing with ewer than 4 friends is trash can in this game, theyve said theyre working on it a hhalf a dozen times and we the community just keep beating the dead horse. So… he trolled you. I think its pretty god kitten funny tbh. tip my hat, i nice to have a dev that lets the mask slip and show theres just another kitten gamer underneath.
I did finish reading the full post and found it very enjoyable.
My previous post was a bit of a botch now that i re-read it. What i mean, ultimately, is this:
League of Legends is, and having played both l’ll say it, DotA for babies. But its vastly more popular, their embeded stream aside it is just a more popular game. Im resentful of this. Sc2 as an esport suffers from a divided community, as a huge portion of the player base participates heavily in usemapsettings games.
Were guildwars 2 to take lessons from these games about what works and doesnt, they would, in my opinion, sacrifice fun for esport.
Instant gratification, easy to understand, and without variety. Sort of the opposite of gw1. :/
What do you think. Of eshrewing blasting staff or evasive arcana on a staff support build? Of swapping earths embrace for quick glyphs? On your staff support do you favor runes of dwayna or 2 monk 2 water 2 ? For the durations?
Can you elaborate on that shaman staff build?
I run with mist form and lightning flash, the 3rd utility sees some rotation but is often arcane wave. What are your thoughts / what utilities could you just not live without? (Glyph of renewal for aw does free up flash for something better. I will experiment with that.)
I would like to appeal the moderator decision to move this to Elementalist forum:
The AMA is being heald by a prominent PvPer, and the serious questions that will be asked will center around Elementalists within tPvP, and possibly around higher tier tPvP in general. Please consult a second opinion.
I disagree with locked posting, but locked thread creating might be a good compromise, and displaying qp by profile is a good idea.
I say this as someone with no qp. I have no team, nor will i. The people i came to gw2 with (we were in the top 20 i. Gw 1 for most of a single season, thats our highest claim to fame.) Ya they all quit, because theres no deck building, or positioning, or fun.
BUT, anet should listen to the people who like this bad game when figuring out how to address the balance of this bad game.
The rest of us are just waiting for a different game mode, one that hopefully isnt bad this time.
Could you enumerate some of the builds you are most comfortable using in a competition, their major attributes and roles? As that im aware staff + clerics amulet is perhaps the only way to go, i would love to hear about it if other viable builds and rolls have been discovered.
Finished. Agree with all op, hope anet considers it
Ahah! I have only read the tip of the OP but i can already see where he went wrong: he thinks Star Craft is a pinnacle of esport just because it god kitten should be. What he doesnt realize is that League of Legends is the new big esport. Because: babies.
His theory of how to make guildwars 2 succede should include imbedding the stream into the client, so people playing pve count as spectators of a pvp match.
LOL youd think anet wouldnt announce these ahead of time a 2nd time
Well, shucks. I guess it boils down to this:
Arenanet has indicated that inorder to have spectators for their esport game, they do not want to introduce multiple game types.
A lot of us don’t like the game type (and play) currently given to us. You, and im sure others, do enjoy it.
So… youre sort of right. Anet shouldnt listen to those of us who are so disgruntled. They should find players who like the current format and listen to their thoughts on mechanics and balancing- then, when theyre ready, consider accomodating the rest of us in a completely different game type.
That said, im mad about it. I was a fan of the first game so i bought the second, expecting something similar. I dont think the gw2 pvp is even truly the same genre as gw1. If genres are described by role-playing setting then sure, but this… is not even inspired by a common source. I dont like analogies but geez, its like… i watched TLC back when NASA was involved… and so I tuned in to see Honey Boo Boo or whatever. … bjt by tuned in we mean spent 60 dollars. Its still tv, and non fiction, so its the same genre right? Both documentaries. Why am i so upset?
Trolling is against forum policy, reported.
On a more serious note i think the complaints can be split into two categories:
Balance- whom you address, though dubiously. Balance is an issue and isnt perfect. It does have far fewer issues than these boards would have one believe.
Unfun- several of us just dont find the game fun. Balanced or not, its not a fun game. Its not a sequel to gw1, it is missing structural tools like match making that lets you play with a couple friends, and more than that its just deeply unfun.
Funny how every single patch was another ‘breakpoint’ for you guys. First the devblog, which didnt come out for ages, then the ’balance’patch and now this. Wondering how many people really leave the game after they didnt get what they want, because by that logic, no one should be playing right now.
I did. I still haunt the forums while im at work and hope for good news… but ive played a total of two maps (one map long matches) in the last 6 weeks or so. I did it partially to keep mt client updated and partially because i wanted to get a feel for the que times, population, community etc. I should really do it more but the game play is just so … bleh.
Its been a while but, does it still hit stupid hard and help rangers rez themselves faster?
Ya, especially when you play elementalist. I was a bit ahead of the curve in figuring out that tank is my only good build option… ive joined a lot of 2v2 games where nobody could get a kill. So we just flailed at eachother pointlessly for 15 minutes until someone joined
I think… that arena.net is a honey badger, and pvp players are just one more snake.
This is a really well written post, i wish mine communicated my frustrations this gracefully.
Whats their vision of optimal yield strategy for each of the 3 competitive maps?
How do they see balance? How many confirmed minimum viable builds per class in high end competition? How they define viable?
What games inspired the gw2 pvp? What games inspire the various members of whatever board plans gw2 pvp?
How do they see character, gear, trait, and utility skills being changed mid match?
These are the sorts of things id like to hear, whenever they have time… after this big back end fix they mentioned gets put in. Or before if its going to be a while… anyone else?
How come we always see changes happening in both spheres at the same time?
Yea I know, there really haven’t been any PvE balancing changes… not even underwater ones hint hint … but I thought the Devs agreed at launch they wouldn’t muck the whole game up by linking these two.
edit: and how exactly is GW2 PvP the sequel to GW1 PvP? What do these two games share in common exactly?
K the answer is: cuz the ranger isn’t polished. Your shortbow does better damage than your long bow, your short sword does equal damage to your great sword. Your talents are bass ackwards and your pet abilities still don’t work on demand enough to be pvp viable.
anet just like… worked on the many ranger issues until BWE2 when GS/Spirit rangers ran around owning everyone, they nerfed both into the floor and never looked back at what a crippled mess they left behind them.
You are quite possiby the second most neglected class at launch, behind necromancers and their 100+ list of bugs.
But necromancers had bugs, not balancing issues, so they got worked on, and you didn’t.
Poll: Split Tournies into (1) Paid/Free or (2) Premade/Solo(or duo) Q?
in PvP
Posted by: ryston.7640
Other:
Tourney’s = built
Free = built gets paired with built in first elemenation matches only, otherwise mixed. Definition of built be moved to 4+ players queing together, allow up to 3 players to que together as one without it being listed as a built.
Thief burst is a little different because it doesn’t show an animation to speak of. A d/d thief at a rnage going 5, f1 is more difficult for most players to avoid than axe/axe – even if it is less lethal.
Personally I don’t think thief damage needs a nerf, maybe make mug master or grand master? I think we just need a greater selection of neck options to allow hybrid builds (non bunker non dps non pure control) to be more viabe. The big problem with the d/d thief combo is that it literally 1 shots several classes using several necks. This forces some classes to play only with the defensive necks, which often don’t offer the correct blend of offensive attributes to be viable for anything but bunkering.
Like:
1) Cosmetic upgrades only
Dislike:
1) The fact that this games PvP is in no way inspired by or based on Guild Wars 1 PvP.
2) Quickness
3) Bugs
4) Capture point only
5) Lack of victory announcements (___’s team won HoH)
6) Lack of ratings
7) Lack of healer
8) Downed state #2 abilities
9) Gap closers / openers being waaaay too common. Blink would make a good Mesmer ultimate on a 60 second cool down.
10) Stupid condition stacks that remove that fine distinction of using cover conditions/hexes instead of just spamming buttons
11) Limited attribute distribution on amulet fixes a couple exploits and trashes on a dozen build options. It’s a drug that prevents heart attacks and causes lung cancer.
12) Lack of spectate mode
13) Rally mechanic
14) Changing characters mid tournament
15) Underwater combat
16) Kittens
Except for #1, those dislikes aren’t in any particular order, and I might be forgetting one or two.
lol, Def, I like DotA and DotA2. I hate LoL about as much as you hate MOBAs.
So I agree, MOBA does not = good, by any measure, but I think it can, and I’m easily fooled several times in a row. (I’ll give anet another chance, though I’m beginning to have alternate theories about what that a stands for.)
God i would love them if they actually did this. Id almost feel bad for all the depressed moping and angry viscious anaologies ive been plastering on the forums.
Ill
1. Get more friends = register a full team (or atleast 80%) to tpvp, its not a pub, its made for teams.
2. I have no idea why are you having trouble playing in spvp with your friends, join a server that has 5-8 people, then your friends can join you via friend list in couple of seconds.
3. It would be insane if they allowed you to join as a party and get in one team for spvp, how about i get my 6 friends and we keep farming 8×8 servers, what fun would it be for other team?
I dont need to stack an 8v8 team, give me working free tournaments that are pub-able for fun. Option 2 just doesnt work well. Ive done it, its alright, but its not really good by any measure. As to making more friends…
Look im not saying the problem doesnt have solutions, im saying it shouldnt exist. The solution for this problem has been a common game element for about a decade. Its… a not nice word… that anet launched without these systems or without the resources to implement them very shortly after release.
Anet was progressive about things like monthly fees, a cash shop that is truly not pay to win… why are they so bassackwards about releasing an unfinished game and fixing it way way down the road with a patch. This is the kind of industry trend you would expect them to NOT follow, yet here they are doing the worst job of it ive seen yet except perhaps sto. (Thats star trek online)
Bottom line to me:
Anet released gw2 pvp that was not inspired in any way shape or form by gw1 pvp. It has nothing at all in common. This was not a sequel, this was a game under the same ip but in a truly different genre. They didnt advertise that, they just did it.
The new game also is bad at whatever it is. It lacks basic infastructure and has poorly implemented mechanics.
They basically said: screw the pvp, its a pve mmo… were just not going to publish that because it will alienate a lot of out base, and we want them to try our pve game.
Im mad.
Edit: okay this isnt fair of me, im sure anet is not that cynical or evil… m ashamed i wrote it, but its how i feel about things right now. They really dropped the ball a what i said about game inspiration isnt untrue, they did alienate their pvp fanbase. Yea i get that they wanted to move things forward, but…
It would be nice if they came out and said they wanted to date other people before asking us to pay for their boob job instead of just letting us figure out that they’re swingers now after the fact.
Im sure they meant well with the pvp, and maybe its good to some, but not to me. I feel like i ordered a nice steak, got served a burger, said what the hell its a 60 dollar burger but im hungry… then i find out its a garden burger, and the waitress wont be back with ketchup until the foods had time to get cold.
(edited by ryston.7640)
I expected hall of heroes with an often shifting metagame (balance changes or expansions).this requires a system with distinctions like hex and condition and aegis chains and so forth. I did that with pugs all the time.
Its obvious gw2 will never be that. They’ve gone in a simpiler direction, one that requires an huge investment of time in the form of refined player skill, but not gear.
So now i want a good game that has asic features, if i cant have the masterpeice that made me love the franchise, the beautiful game where being able to think through builds while trodding through the boring parts of life could bear fruit in game… why did they waste all that?
Its a good point, that small one.
shrug i just think that if they were willing to set aside everything good about gw1 to innovate, why couldnt they innovate a match making system or a que with friend option?
@seether: im n of those players who posted a lot about the eles downed state, and myself and several others asked not for a better “2” but for other classes to have an equally bad “2”.
I think the downed state, especially the rally, give too great of an advantage to the more populous force. By nerfing “2” skills (or rally) you help to lessen this impact.
Yea… im kinda mad now. Passionate, whatever. I dont think its grounds to insult the devs personally, that kind of language is uncalled for. But an apology for launching the game before pvp was anywhere near ready would be nice.
Just a quick: we are sorry, we thought we were near launch but realised after that announcement that some of the changes we had planned would require a lot of deep changes to the code. This has resulted in some serious delays on addressing issues such as match making, spectating, balancing, the evaluation of game mechanics, bug fixes, and more.
We would like to share our visiom with you, but were adamant about our policy of not unveil things until were certain, and until these deep code changes are polished we cant do sufficient internal testing to be certain.
We can say that character changes will not be possible mid tournament and that we want to see a mix of balanced, burst, and bunker builds in tPvP. We are waiting to see if gear swaps and utility skill swaps will be allowed.
Our vision of balance includes every class being able to play a balanced build and either a burst or bunker build in competitive tpvp. We hope to allow subtle customizations of these builds through the trait system, so two bunker guardians are not identical.
We dont want to give an estimate of when youll start to see these issues addressed. Glhf and in the interum were happy to announce the creation of the battle pets forum, where posters are welcome to share their ideas about the meta and rules for the battle pets mini game we hope to implement next decade, between 2020 and 2029.
No. When the nerfbat came down in gw1 it dropped hard.
I like the more reserved approach in theory.
I happen to think the game needs some major changes not covered by such an approach,but when they get this game decent… dnot the gw1 way
Ya, im not active enough to really have a pvp team, but i would like to play with 1 or 2 friends when i log in.
How do i do this?
SPvP we can pick a server, and after a few tries we can be on the same server but usually opposite teams. Plus when the server dies (happens every 4th map it seems like…) it takes a while to find another not full not dead server and both get in.
So i tried tpvp, but since i just have the 1 or 2 friends, we get stomped every time and its no fun. Paid tournaments didnt help.
Im mad. My friends and i have all quit and they sort of begrudge me for the bad game recommendation. Im still a gw1 fanboy so ill be back when its fixed, but i doubt ill talk many of them into reinstalling.
How could you do this to us arenanet? Ive been interested in you since you hired former cavedog entertainment employees, you were the game developer i could trust. I feel really betrayed, and while ill forgive you in time… this wasnt a dubious decision to launch when you were nowhere near allowing friends to play together, you had to know this and decide it was ok.
That person, whomever said this was fine, and you know they had to argue their point… that person should wear a duntz hat to work and not be allowed to weigh in on these types of decisions during meetings anymore. If they cant convince a coworker to speak for them then their idea is probably not worth listening to.
Shame.
Edit: can anyone tell me how guildwars 1 pvp inspired and helped shape gw2 pvp? Can you convince me that these two games play similarly enough to be appropriately regarded as sharing a genre?
(edited by ryston.7640)