We have more changes coming to further hinder this type of behavior.
I think the point is that its too late. You ruined the pvp ‘economy’.
Most pvpers dont care, I’ll grat you, but some do. Else why even have the system? You can abandon the overhaul of pvp rewards now and release it 1/2 assed like everything else on pvp – it now means nothing. The ridiculous release of maps as the pvp community cries for EVERYTHING ELSE has broken that system.
This might sound harsh, but I will say it straight. GW2 is a business product. ANet and NCSoft get a lot of free advice from real customers. That is a sweet deal. If someone had the answer to making GW2 sPvP a raging success, then that knowledge would be worth millions, literally. It would probably cause noticeable worldwide economic growth in the esport emerging market, too, so there is more value in it than what ANet or NCSoft would get. I know key information about what prevents GW2 sPvP from becoming a major part of esport growth, and how to correct the deficiencies. What I know is enough to result considerable earnings for shareholders effected by the current value of GW2 sPvP. You will not see me write that information here, nor by any other means without a lucrative contract.
tldr – people know what to do, but it will not get done
ya gaming communities have no shortage of beta male nerds who can draw you flow charts of the development cycle and hand you a sketch of the final product. Whats morethey do it for free.
I admit, we are short on … dudes like you…
It seems like weve had a shift, where before the devs didnt seem to care much for ideas, they did respond to and acknowledge critiques or flaws.
Now it seems they want ideas? A few posts have affirmed idea threads and a critique thread has been closed, that ive seen.
Is this accurate to say?
heh heh. hahahahaha
It’s good that theyre doing that now. I shouldnt be dwelling on the past, when good threads just slowly died and the devs went on to address some of the issues but never in the way recomended.
anyone else remember whe ele downed state was awful, and most of the forum asked them to nerf other downed states to be just as bad. So they made ele’s the best.
only one thing to say. if u make suggestion, anet’s gonna do the exact opposite. i think it has something to do with “we want to be different” thing.
quote for truth my god. they want so badly to be unique flowers
Higher George Lucas
What does it mean!?1
hire* sorry.
hire george lucas, hes good at making sequels.
well better than arenanet anyways.
no, and you should never expect fun gameplay inspired by gw 1, aaa esport worthy.
EVER
This thread blew up rather quickly, so let me recap on a few of the things that are getting mentioned:
1) They didn’t release a full game.
Unfortunately I don’t agree. They made statements before release saying that these dominion-style pvp matches would be the only type of PvP at release. They also stated that the maps they had at release would be the only maps AT RELEASE, and they stuck to what they said. In addition, they have added, I think, three new maps to the pool, each with a different gimmick that can throw a game.
*They also had hot join, which they stated would be just for casual players to toss each other around. This is what it is. They had tournaments, which didn’t work out all that well, so they were split into Solo and Team arenas. Whether or not they have something in the works that’s different, we don’t know, but to me it seems like Solo and Team arenas were just a temporary fix to a bigger problem. Something bigger may be on the way.
They released far more content for PvP on release day than MMO’s in the past.*
2) Their internal balancing was flawed.
Although the balance was flawed, you can’t expect them to perfectly balance the game right from the start. No game is perfectly balanced, and Guild Wars 2 went as far as making sure every class was viable, and if they weren’t, giving them builds that were. Every class has a few builds that work – it’s up to the players to find the “best” builds, to number crunch, and to game the system in any way they can.
3) Blanket Statements.
In no way, shape, or form, do comments that state that “everyone” wanted THIS, or “no one” wanted THIS, help the discussion, and they are simply wrong. Focus more on what you have done specifically, what you have specifically asked for which didn’t come to fruition. You don’t know what “everyone” wants, stop speaking for the whole of the community.
I’ll get to the point. This game has far more than other MMO’s did on their release day, and updates take time. Feel free to PM me examples of games that had more release content than GW2 did, and I will eat my words. However, the point of the discussion was to keep things civil, to calm down, and realize that they are working, and have been working, to fix things since day 1.
They have new game types in the works.
They have new maps in the works.
They have Elementalist balance updates in the mid-October patch.
They buffed classes that were under-performing since the start.
Claiming they did nothing is ignorant at best.
they launched with no spectator and no mm.
ill agree, balancing at launch? I mean there was some obviously not balanced stuff, but what does it really matter? But…
the thing you just arent getting, because you werent there for the beginning of gw1…
gw2 launched with more pvp than most mmos do. sure, i’ll give you that, but that’s not the standard to which they were held. they were held to gw1 launch, and you just dont know how far under that mark they hit.
this game is kitten, the pvp is utter kitten. its not fun, and it isnt even inspired by guild wars 1.
So now it IS compared to other mmos pvp, and if we were talking ‘at launch’ then ya, its doing pretty well. but if were talking overall? Its meh. Not that fun, Its got the whole 0 grind thing going for it but thats really about all that can be said for it.
So, were dissapointed, and were not impressed with the piddly changes theyve made. We expected an 8’ giant of a leader and we got some 5’ punk, who is growing sure but he’s obviously never going to get past 6.
kittening let down
pvp is neglected. not ele
I didn’t hear any suggestions I didn’t disagree with while I do agree with most of them.
However, some Staff buffs for Ele would be welcomed. More then what is currently being done just because of how easy it is to avoid being hit by most of its attacks, and I think they’re going the wrong direction with buffing Water Blast.
However however, I like idea about the Lyssa runes having a much longer cooldown.
HOWEVER HOWEVER HOWEVER, I agree with the change about flanking strike and larcenous strike. As well as the Shadow Trap change.
I didn’t (-) hear any suggestions I didnt (-) disagree (-) with. While I do agree with most of them…
so a triple negative makes a negative I think, but then we conclude on a positive, and then go on…
HOWEVER… and then comment in agreeance.
so I guess you disagreed with most of it.
…
Forget GL just hire this guy. He’ll sort things out!
Higher George Lucas, so GW2 can reach truly epic levels of sequel let down.
Diablo 3 has more viewers on twitch…
I think a downed state class tier list would be more interesting, if were going to order terrible unfinished beta crap anet has thrust upon our game…
k the specific issue:
1) They hyped PvP
2) They launched with their pvp missing necissary infastructure, unfun as gameplay, and full of terrible balancing.
3) They made the PvP team a skeletal crew on the argument that PvP evolves it’s own content.
4) They didnt reinforce their skeleton crew to get PvP the basics… like match making.
5 – 99999 ) They didn’t base gw2 PvP off GW1 PvP at all.
That would be a partial list of why gw2 pvp is so dissapointing people like me have more fun complaining on the forums than playing their game. Why continue telling them which parts of the game need changing when its obvious they lack the resources to impliment, and probably the wisdom to value any good advice they might receive.
No, it stands a far better use of time to simply ensure they know which things are broken and then let them devise their own solutions.
anyone remember paid tournaments? Hownthe forums told them over and over again that it wouldnt solve the problem, but anet blindly pushed ahead and actually wound up exasperbating the issue because farming randoms in unpaid earned tickets for paid, and the reward weight vs tickets earned ensured a permanent cycle?
Ya. Telling these devs what to do is a fools errand, they are too busy trying to prove theyre savants and no idea they dont have on their own is likely to be considered.
best we just tell them whats broken
new skills could fix this game, but theyd have to start with a rebalance of weapon skills and a redesign of gameplay.
make more attacks skill shots, basically – then remove the teleport spam.
Kinda wonder how they got on, but good for them I suppose.
fuster cluck surrounded by glowy particle effects
ya wvwvw is just a cluster kitten that gets won by zergs and seiges.
very occasionally you get some beed 4v4 action, but then someone involved gets renforced
this game is so bloody easy to play that children with fetal alcohol syndrome can enjoy it.
the elementalist is the only class near as hard to control as … well most games on the market.
I think people should push themselves to be better if they want to play those classes.
This game already panders to the least coordinated sectors of humanity as is.
ya ele runs 30 water 30 arcane. maybe sometimes 20/30 or 30/20 but im unaware of any meta build that didnt put 50+ into those 2 trees.
meh, the gameplay isnt even fun why do i care about balance?
… stealth is a poorly used mechanic anyways. Instead of being ‘threatening’ stealth is just damage juking in this game. y care?
Hey I enjoy me some holy trinity games, but im also not one to opppose innovation. When anet said they were changing things I said okay, cool.
Lots of competitive games lack recovery, counterstrike was (I think) the origional team esport. (someone argue unreal, point would still stand). The trinity isnt what makes the game fun.
But something does have to make the game fun. In GW it was the teamwork and the ‘deck building’. In FPS games it was the skill and the intuition.
In GW2… there’s less skill, because no crosshair or listening for footsteps etc.
No deck building
‘Team work’ exists but not like it did. Pulling off a kill in gw meant multiple people did the right thing at the right time despite enemy efforts to disrupt them. In Guildwars 2 it means you used stability? woo. Maybe someone immobilized for you, yea, thats cool.
Anyone else remember what it took to drop someone in gw1?
Attrition teams were a somewhat unpopular strat, where you just wear the enemy team to death. Usually you had some sort of burst. Sometimes this was a simple spike, other times it was selective adrenaline dumps with precision interupts or cc.
anyway i digress. stomping is not a substitute for the sort of teamplay we had in gw1. Its a highly telegraphed gimmic designed to make a spectatable game, rather than a fun game. Which is sort of the problem, esports need to be fun else nobody cares about them.
problem:
Elementalist is the most complicated class to play in gw2, most classes are much simpiler.
not saying ele is complex, just that others are face-roll status and ele is… about average for a video game i would say
gw2 is designed so nobody will feel overwhelmed or challanged. balancing around the one class that could potentially make someone feel that way just wouldnt work with the design concept
Not really..Have you played mobas?I dont see how there is more complexity on an individual level there thatn in gw2.Also ive played pure hot key mmos..no complexity there either just longer rotations and usually a lot less weight on positioning and timing.
You only think the classes are a faceroll cause of bad number balancing.
Warrior for example used to be considered a very hard class to be good at it when it was underpowered .Now its very easy..What changed?Just numbers in healing/duration of effects etc (and cleansing ire of course but i find this good mechanic :P)
Imo all classes have potential for deep engaging builds that require decent amount of experience and skills to pull off.The current gameplay of gw2 pvp is nowhere near its true potential
Well, Guild Wars 1 really comes to mind. I think positioning was important then, timing was rather important… it also had resource management and stuff. You dont have to convince everyone that creative builds were possible either, that was just accepted, they were possible.
I’m pretty unconvinced positioning has ever mattered less in any game. GW2 has so many gap closers, openers, and invulnerabilities that allow movement, the game is pretty forgiving of poor positioning choices.
Finally, the thing about a moba comparison is:
1) Positioning matters. More. Ok kitten LoL and summoner abilities. They encourage people to be bad and get away with it.
2) Less skill spam. Like, the conditions put on you matter, and removing them is a decision, not an auto tic. Sometimes. kitten tidehunter.
3) Mobas posess tempo. If a lane was a sword fight, each last hit is an efficient stroke, each botched roam is an exerted lunge. You wear your opponent into a disadvantage and then make a gambit for victory. A successful riposte on their part could be fatal.
GW2 is more like an arm wrestling match.
yup. anet pretty much made the most dissapointing sequel of the decade.
Duke Nukem?
Diablo 3?
I think gw is #1.
edit: Okay starwars 1 wins
(edited by ryston.7640)
problem:
Elementalist is the most complicated class to play in gw2, most classes are much simpiler.
not saying ele is complex, just that others are face-roll status and ele is… about average for a video game i would say
gw2 is designed so nobody will feel overwhelmed or challanged. balancing around the one class that could potentially make someone feel that way just wouldnt work with the design concept
I see a number of calls for 20v20 or classic 8v8
The reason this wont work in gw2:
Rallying on stomp turns large battles into stupid cluster kittens
a good even fight, both teams lose 3 people to downed state in the open, and then one team gets a stomp
now its 20v17+2, and the 17+2 have a secondary objective (get rezs off) to deal with. the thing just snowballs.
This game really isnt fun in fights sized more than 3v3, and 2v2 usually feels better.
blame kittenty development, like i do.
did anet realize their pvp wasnt worth server space? shocked face
This is an inquiry, if we can understand why PvP has been so bad for so long, maybe we can fix it.
I’ll start with a theory, devs feel free to koin in and correct me.
1) The games traits, skills, and gameplay are designed around PvE first.
2) PvP is then envisioned, with the goal to be an esport. The team centers a lot of time upon the flaws with gw1, the most natural esport of an mmo to date.
3) Downer state is introduced, with stomping, so those who know nothing of the game can spectate.
4) Testing begins! but critical feedback is ignored and those who get frustrated with the silent treatment and flame poor design decisions are kicked from alpha
5) The PvP team is made small, on the premise that PvP evolves content on it’s own in the form of Meta.
6) The game is launched without spectator, ranking, match making, what have you.
7) The small PvP team attempts to finish their games infastructure while fans walk away dissapointed
8) The PvP team finally finishes some basic tools for pvp only to look around and realize that oh yes, the gameplay really isnt condusive to pvp. particle effects clutter the screen, targetting systems are clunky and several classes spam out NPCs to clutter the screen. To say nothing of how teleports that make people feel cool turn out to demote strategic gameplay and positioning — and class balance mechanics, like ranger damage and pet survivability, are calculated with PvE in mind.
9) The devs give in on a key decision, to have only one game type, though they kicked alpha testers for that sort of suggestion… and are now using their limited development resources to try and accomodate us.
This is what ive seen, skipping over all the poor balancing decisions along the way
Ya GW2 was a PvE game for the truly awful and unskilled player to be able to coast through even the “explorable” mode content…
PvP was an after thought, in which the only contribution was something along the lines of
“We want to be an esport, so lets make the game more entertaining to watch even if you dont know anything about the mechanics of the game.” So downed states and stomping were fpisted upon us, and all who said it was a downgrade from traditional team tactics were told to shut up and summarily kicked from alpha.
THEN. Since PvP evolves it’s own content in the form of Meta shifts, anet decided that minimal resourves need be allocated to the PvP team. They then launched with no spectator mode, no ranking, and one bad game mode
im toxic because i disagree with your assertion that theory crafting is fun in this game.
i played and theory crafted in gw1. my biggest acheivement was blood spike, which is hardly the best build of any moment but hey, it got famous and worked pretty well. im satisfied.
I was the guy who started running doylak signet in gw1 into HoH. Im all for finding gems the meta game overlooked.
I theory crafted the bejebus out of gw2 and you know what I eventually found? It was really boring. This game was more about twitch than theory craft. Good build selection wasnt as important as build familiarity and good reflexes.
why was this dissapointong? Because as a twitch game, gw2 is lacking. they have skill shot abilities but opt primarily away from them. seriously, go try a f2p called smite and imagine what gw2 would have been like if theyd gone with an approach more like that. (the gameplay, not the concept).
Ah, I’m sorry to hear that. I did not play GW1, so I have no grounds to argue with you on that point. I think you could have some fun with engineers if you like skillshots and theorycrafting, but maybe you’ve already given them a shot.
I’m sure Smite is a great game. I don’t think that automatically makes GW2 a bad game, though. GW2 is probably not the best game in the universe, but that’s true of every single game except the best one. People are constantly enjoying games that are not the best one. It’s not really fair to go tell an olympic silver-medalist “You should have done better!” Or even, “You got gold four (eight?) years ago!” (If you liked GW1 better).
That’s all I’m trying to say. GW2 PvP is enjoyable. If I didn’t enjoy it, I wouldn’t play it.
I hear you, so let me make a comparison that shows both our points of view.
Suppose that instead of video games, we’re talking food at a restaurant.
I ordered the steak (a sequel to gw1, with some changes, hopefully improvement but still sorts that type of game.)
I got a hamburger, gave it a try, and decided I didn’t even like it that much for a hamburger (hence the comparison to burger kings.)
So I started yelling in the dinning hall about how upset I am. (complaining and being toxic on the forums.) Meanwhile some guests, like you, who thought it was a pretty good burger are sorta wondering why I’m ruining your dinning experience. Why don’t I just go to a different restaurant.
So, in conclusion: Yes, I am being toxic, and it does ruin the experience for those people who enjoy GW2 PvP.
On the other hand, I really did order a steak, and they really are giving me a McDouble. My whining that I’d have settled for a Whopper is sort of off-topic and petty, but at this point it falls under the general umbrella of:: I’m upset and want them to feel bad about themselves, because they wrote steak on the bloody menu and it was a lie! ::
(really anet did advertise a PvP experience much different from the one they delivered.)
Oh and I waited a really long time for my food too. shakes fist
I fail to see how this has to do with the Dunning-Krüger effect. Are you suggesting the devs don’t know their game?
2) The devs attempt to make a AAA Esport game.
1) The thief conversation that will ensue
im toxic because i disagree with your assertion that theory crafting is fun in this game.
i played and theory crafted in gw1. my biggest acheivement was blood spike, which is hardly the best build of any moment but hey, it got famous and worked pretty well. im satisfied.
I was the guy who started running doylak signet in gw1 into HoH. Im all for finding gems the meta game overlooked.
I theory crafted the bejebus out of gw2 and you know what I eventually found? It was really boring. This game was more about twitch than theory craft. Good build selection wasnt as important as build familiarity and good reflexes.
why was this dissapointong? Because as a twitch game, gw2 is lacking. they have skill shot abilities but opt primarily away from them. seriously, go try a f2p called smite and imagine what gw2 would have been like if theyd gone with an approach more like that. (the gameplay, not the concept).
dont forget teleports, because making commitments to position decisions is anti fun
Na man try longbow ranger. so OP.
But overall think of what Jon said: “Bad for the player good for the game”
whats bad for a ranger player, may be good for the game, in that things like getting mana flooded in mtg allows the possability for a disadvantaged player to take a game off of an advantaged player. It makes total sense you just aren’t thinking about the metagame hard enough.
Anyone else feel like gw2 pvp decelopment is a splended example of the Dunning Kreuger effect?
Devs be talkin about bad for the player and good for the game, advanced meta thinking… meanwhile their gameplay is boring.
1) If youre a twitch action game, include aiming. make more abilities skill shots. Go play smite or somekitten.
2) If youre a tactical meta build mtg game then just start over. from the beginning, go all the way back.
3) Either way remove the stupid gap closers there are too many.
then you can like, talk about nerfing thief glass, because it kills all other glass too well, and therfore prevents other classes from having glass build options. Thats the kind of bad for a player good for the game decision you were talking about right? Except you took like a year to sort of move in that direction.
how about:
we removed the downed state. Changed the game type. Completely divorced PvP traits and skills from PvE because there was no reason to link these concepts. Removed all of the teleports and gap closers / openers from the game, and will add them back one at a time. Basically we just started over.
We have different game types brewing at different levels of completion.
Some of them break away entirely from capture points and put the scoring emphasis on objectives/kills.
Some, as you guys know, are just different ways of looking at death match.
We don’t want to just release a ton of new game modes, so the reason we don’t talk about all of them is we’re basically testing a lot of them, and then we’ll see which ones work the best together.
As we’ve said before, we also want to be sure we don’t put out too many, and split up the players too much, while putting out enough so that you guys have variety.
You haven’t got a community to split up.
PvP was an afterthought in this game, a footnote. We were promised pvp to rival gw1, inspired by gw1. AAA Esport. What we got was a poorly run mode where you could bring your PvE skills and abilities against one another.
but considering where we stood when we launched with almost no features in PvP I think we’ve come a long ways.
Do you see why this kitten es us the kitten off? When we were promised AAA Esport PvP, derived from Guild Wars 1 and inspired by Magic the Gathering.
And it’s been until now that I saw a dev actually admit they launched with almost no features?!
Do you understand that GW1 was a PvP game, and that a huge part of your fan base came from that expecting and wanting that? You launched without it.
This forum loves analogies :P
PvP is not currently designed to have extensible content. There are maps, which we do make. There are runes and sigils, but there are already an overabundance of them. Finally there are skins, which are added usually with every other update, but how you obtain those skins stem from PvE.
There are no features we can just ‘throw people at’ to give you guys more content. We need more infrastructure and more extensible systems, but those are the hardest to design and take the most time to implement. An example would be a completely reworked reward system. Those are the things we’re working on. It’s taking a lot of time and hard work to get there, but the payoff will be worth it.
I guess the problem is thus:
PvP would have it’s own evolving meta and very little changes would be needed by the devs.
But the PvP game is boring and bad, with bad maps, bad traits, bad abilities, and bad gameplay. Launched with no ladder and no spectator.
So some extra effort on providing us a fun game, so we could have a meta we cared about, would have been nice.
But instead were given a slow trickle. Which is frustrating.
Edit: I got a little caught up in being mean, sorry. The maps aren’t all bad. Some are kinda neat.
They’re balancing for the entire game, not just pvp.
1) They identified early in the development process that it was a bad idea to chain PvE and PvP together like that, and promised they would balance the two separately.
2) Their PvE is such a joke of face roll easy that I honestly don’t see why they bother. There are two modes,
a. I can see enemy animations and press ‘immune’ when I’m supposed to. So I use melee weapons and go fast
b. I have special needs and so I go ranged, where I can afford to miss a few dodges
Why do we care if we upset the delicate balance of easy and medium. No hard mode exists. This game is not at risk of making it’s PvE content unplayably difficult or unchallanging, It will never be either.
EDIT:
Oh I forgot about WvW.
Does stomping an enemy in WvW still cause rally? Because I really don’t think balancing discussions matter as long as that’s still around.
We are lucky enough to have game nights with guys from WOTC (they make Magic:TG) and I got into a great conversation with one of their devs. I was talking about balancing an MMO vs a CCG,
See that’s what bugs me.
GW1 Was inspired by MTG, and GW2 claimed it would be as well — but it’s really not. Not even a little. I read this and was kind of hoping you’d admit that fact.
Bad for the player good for the game is the kind of advanced conversation that you just aren’t mature enough to have. So much goes into this that you fail to grasp.
Lets look at Blizzard. Blizzard played round robin with their classes, buffing some to great heights while others toiled. This had the effect you’re talking about because people spent so much time creating and raising a toon. There was an investment.
When you just make a PvP character in full gear, you lack that investment, so nerfing a class isn’t ‘bad for the player good for the game’ it’s just ‘oh okay meh. You’ve reduced the depth of strategy of the game by 1 class or build.’
You don’t seem to realize this, you seem to live in a world where people have a toon they identify with and play exclusively. That isn’t competitive gaming.
For a game the size of an MMO, these things take time. We’re not a small game that can move/change/adapt quickly.
Just checked Twitch.
Sonic 2 has more viewers than you.
Diablo 3, the flop of all flops, have more viewers than you.
Your PvP is not a large game. Keep making excuses for having one of the worst sequels in the history of bad sequels. I think you should hire George Lucas.
John, speaking as one of those more or less dedicated to criticizing the pvp in this game:
I doubt it’s you we (ghe flamers, for lack of a better name), want to flame.
1) I know that a disgruntled employee screwed up your launch and crippled obs and ladders. That wasn’t your fault, but I wonder if launch could have been delayed / more resources loaned to the pvp team for a time inorder to resolve this issue sooner.
2) In general, a lot of this game looks like a PvE game that was involved with their PvP team and allowed some small input from you about balance, downed state, etc. overall though, this game was not setup to be a pvp game. i dont know if thats your poor judgement or the concequence of poor bargaining between priorities.
considering they promised a AAA esport inspired by gw1 and mtg…
pretty sure the whole broken promise thing isnt an issue.
pressing the pet command button could be like a weapon swap, so the actual command to do something could be “6 + 2 + click”. after a single command is issued it could swap the bar back to the previous weapon.
no no this is no troll, staff ele do so much aoe damage, if you multiply their damage by 5 because there 5 on enemy team they hit like twice as hard per second as other classes.
pp thief and mantra mesmer are op 2 yes.
long bow is so obviously better than short bow, rangers scale with power too well, obviously.
These two builds have been OP since beta, yet we still haven’t seen enough* nerfs to them. (there was the one nerf when we fixed elementalist talents and took away their spam blast finisher.)
They both do way too much damage and completely dominate the meta.
I have no idea why arenanet thought it was okay to give these two super defensive weapon sets with ridiculous gap manipulation such high damage. Ranger damage is supposed to be balanced around scaling with their pets, so normally power builds arent viable, but the longbow is the clear exception. As for elementalist, dont even get me started on how lethal eruption can be! Giving ele this over powered opportunity to hit with perfectly hybrid condi / power damage is ridiculous! Nobody is prepared to survive both types of pressure from a more focused source, they all specialize rock paper scissors and just accept that one of those two offense types will defeat them, so this mix is unstoppable in the meta.